Windows 7 backup

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Backing up my computer using Windows 7 seems to take an age; yesterday I started it at 9am, and still had to leave it running overnight to get it done.

My ‘My Documents’ folder is less than 60GB, ‘My Pictures’ less than 10GB, and ‘My Music’ about 32GB. Outlook folders add roughly another 5GB. I have a new gaming PC and a new external hard drive, so I don’t think the hardware is to blame.

Two other aspects of Windows 7 backup I don’t like are 1) it does not overwrite the previous backup, but saves each one, and 2) it saves everything is such a way that you cannot look at individual files and folders on the backed up copy.

A lot of my files are downloaded material (pdfs etc) that will not change from one backup to the next, but which I need to have easily hand. A rather small proportion are files I have generated or revised myself (articles etc – I am a writer) which will change between backups.

What I would like is a backup system that 1) over-writes previous backups, 2) skips files which already exist on the backup disc and have not been revised, 3) backs up files which have been revised since the last backup and overwrites the previous version on the backup disc, 4) (ideally) replicates the filing system I have created on my main machine and lets me view it on the backup drive, and 5) doesn’t take all night about it.

I don’t think I can get all this out of Windows 7 – or have I missed something? Alternatively, can anyone recommend a programme that delivers all this at reasonable cost?

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My ‘My Documents’ folder is less than 60GB, ‘My Pictures’ less than 10GB, and ‘My Music’ about 32GB. Outlook folders add roughly another 5GB. I have a new gaming PC and a new external hard drive, so I don’t think the hardware is to blame.

Consider moving the bulk of your personal data off the primary drive and you will not have so much data to have to image in the first place.[/b]

A separate internal drive or partition would be the ideal for this sort of thing.
The “My Documents” folder can easily be moved to another partition/drive, from within it’s properties dialog box.
An email client’s store folder can be directed to another location.
Music and picures can be stored on another internal drive or partition and short cut’d to your desktop.

Windows 7 Backup and Restore is a simple form of backup and image. It will not alow for incremental backups.
For this you will need a third party program like Acronis True image, as one popular example: [SEE TED MYERS THREAD[/url]][/color]

It should not take more than 20 min to backup a properly organized primary drive.

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Consider moving the bulk of your personal data off the primary drive and you will not have so much data to have to image in the first place.[/b]

A separate internal drive or partition would be the ideal for this sort of thing.
The “My Documents” folder can easily be moved to another partition/drive, from within it’s properties dialog box.
An email client’s store folder can be directed to another location.
Music and picures can be stored on another internal drive or partition and short cut’d to your desktop.

Windows 7 Backup and Restore is a simple form of backup and image. It will not alow for incremental backups.
For this you will need a third party program like Acronis True image, as one popular example: [SEE TED MYERS THREAD[/url]][/color]

It should not take more than 20 min to backup a properly organized primary drive.

Clint gives excellent advice here. Move your data to another partition. This allows your image to cover just the OS and apps you have installed. Much smaller and quicker. To image my “C” drive (OS and apps) takes about 15 minutes including a validation. To restore takes about half that time. As Clint mentioned I do use Acronis for this task. I re-image whenever a major change takes place, or once per month. I find this keeps my images up to date.

To move your data, follow the process shown by PC World.It takes just a short time and even if you have to restore your OS, you do not have to touch the data.

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and going with internal or external drive (usb) you can use the system image feature of Win 7 that works real nice.
Click Start down in Search box enter sdclt and press Enter. You can go to dvd but takes quite a few, if there is an external or internal it will choose there. Just go back and redo every once in awhile

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System images are best made only periodically or just before and then just after major changes (provided everything goes ok during the changes) and then day to day data backups are best handled by sycronization/incremental backup programs like Goodsync, Syncback, SyncToy, etc. The second part is set it and forget it, usually only takes seconds to a few minutes a day, and only requires you to check the backup logs every few days to make sure its being backed up automatically.

People who make system image backups as the only form of backup have a lot of time and processor to spare.

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System images are best made only periodically or just before and then just after major changes (provided everything goes ok during the changes) and then day to day data backups are best handled by sycronization/incremental backup programs like Goodsync, Syncback, SyncToy, etc. The second part is set it and forget it, usually only takes seconds to a few minutes a day, and only requires you to check the backup logs every few days to make sure its being backed up automatically.

People who make system image backups as the only form of backup have a lot of time and processor to spare.

If half an hour once per month or whenever a major change takes place, then I guess I’m guilty of making too many images. Many of us use our PCs for personal use only now, probably more of us than those who make their primary living with their PCs. I do back up my data (music, pictures, personal financial data) on 3 separate PCs. This does not happen each day as there are often no changes each day. For those of us who use our systems in this manner, and for those of us that are constantly “playing with our OS” and causing failures, then a good up to date image can get us back up and running in about 10 minutes. Whenever I do create an image, I image all 3 partitions, which takes less than 1/2 hour. This includes a total cleanup before imaging to get rid of all the temporary fluff that has accumulated and a defrag prior to the image creation. I use Acronis which allows me to choose which partition to restore, even though each image includes all 3 partitions on my HD. If this is overkill then so be it. I have lost count on how often my up to date images have saved me huge amounts of time in restoring things.

Many of us are constantly adding new pieces of S/W to try, then elliminating the S/W that does not work well. We either manually uninstall this S/W with a good uninstaller or revert to an image made prior to the installation. I guess the whole point of this rant is that I believe that people who image regularly save themselves a lot of time, especially those of us that do “Play with our systems”.

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Some of your issues with backup remind me of why I use a file/directory synchronization program instead of a backup utility. Only the new/changed files get copied over, and I can see and access individual files on my backup media. In addition, I don’t have to worry about accessing my files 10 years down the line (hey, I have some music, video and photos I will definitely want to access then) when MS has changed the backup program to use a completely different format and it will no longer open the old backups (this had to bite me twice before I gave up on backup programs).

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Some of your issues with backup remind me of why I use a file/directory synchronization program instead of a backup utility. Only the new/changed files get copied over, and I can see and access individual files on my backup media. In addition, I don’t have to worry about accessing my files 10 years down the line (hey, I have some music, video and photos I will definitely want to access then) when MS has changed the backup program to use a completely different format and it will no longer open the old backups (this had to bite me twice before I gave up on backup programs).

Peter – this sounds like what I need. Any particular programme you can recommend?

David

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I store my data to 2nd drive and when I reach milestone I plug in external usb password protected and robocopy my D to it.

Code:

robocopy D: %~dp0 /MIR /R:1 /W:1 /MT16 /XD $RECYCLE.BIN /XD bootwiz /XD "System Volume Information"

exact mirror and I totally control it. Not in some weird file can’t open

System image does work for a system restore and can be reached from tapping F8 during bios and select Repair My Computer. I have been experimenting with it just for knowledge and to see if it works. I can recommend to my family/friends and I don’t have to explain confusing programs to them. I do that so they have an out when they call for help. If you have a second drive definitely worth having. The backup folder is quite big 14.9Gb unlike acronis images

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Thanks Peter Johnson. That sounds like what I need. Can you recommend a file/directory synchronization program?

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Yes, there’s….um…wait a minute…it was on the tip of my brain….um….oh yes! There they are in post #4!

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Yes, there’s….um…wait a minute…it was on the tip of my brain….um….oh yes! There they are in post #4!

Doh!

Thanks Byron

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Doh!

Thanks Byron

Another program that has been highly recommended is the FREE Karen’s Replicator

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I am really guilty of making too many images. (every night at 11:45pm right on the set schedule). The processor seems to be quite idle at that time and I wouldn’t want it to get lazy……..I am usually either sleeping, working on someone’s broken machine or posting here on the lounge and don’t even notice it happening. The 1TB drive that the image goes too will hold about 30 images so storage is not a big problem.

I check the logs and the files themselves about once a week (takes about 5 minutes).

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My systems’ median is somewhere between two and 4 terabytes of usable storage at about 45-70% utilization. I don’t think imaging about 15 terabytes a month is a practical task for my little troopers though if I felt compelled in any way, I suppose I could dedicate one system to do nothing but, and then keep rotating out the drives it would require for such activity. Inbetween there is a happy middle ground for most users.

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I think it was Byron (but it may have been bbearren) that also pointed out in another thread that his backups become archives. To use images for archives would be ridiculous. This is why each person’s backup strategy needs to be fit to their own situation. Byron does huge amounts of audio/video work. This quickly translates into terabytes of storage.

As you can see from my math above, my total image sizes (this is OS and data) are around 30gb. For Macrium reflect this is about a 10-12 minute project. The time I save in not needing to do a manual image (and remember to do it each month) and in having one process to watch the logs on, makes image based backup the simplest and most efficient for me.

Total different usage patterns call for totally different processes……

My policy is to look at everyone’s best practices, and adapt them to my (and my customer’s) needs. These types of forums allow one to draw from a very broad knowledgebase…

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I’m with mercyh on this. It does depend on your needs. Yes in Byron’s case Imaging his large storage areas would be counter-productive. Archiving is far superior for this job as he does. But, for his OS and apps, Imaging is just the ticket. I suspect his archived data is on a separate partition than his OS/apps. Perhaps his imaging needs are not as necessary as mercyh or mine because his OS/app are not in constant flux like ours because of our “doodling” with the system. My images also take far less than 1/2 hour (as I mentioned the 1/2 hour includes cleaning the HD and validating the image). I do not image every night as mercyh does, but I do average at least once per week, and somewhat less on my wife’s laptop since she does not play with her system the way I do.

We each have to decide the best method and means to achieve our back ups. The point is just do it by whatever method works best for you, but just do it!

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You guys got me fired up so I cleaned up both PCs, defragged both, and re-imaged both. I still use 2010 for my wife’s and 2011 for mine, so my 2010 is not going to waste. Both were finished in a combined time frame of about 45 minutes. I just can’t complain of that.

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You guys got me fired up so I cleaned up both PCs, defragged both, and re-imaged both. I still use 2010 for my wife’s and 2011 for mine, so my 2010 is not going to waste. Both were finished in a combined time frame of about 45 minutes. I just can’t complain of that.

I assume these versions refer to Acronis True image Home? That product has not been mentioned by name in this thread until now.

As for the 4 terabyte matter, I assume this is not the size of the Operating System and Programs and their associated data files. User data, especially media files, should be archived using an entirely different class of software from imaging software. Syncing software is best suited to large amounts of data. Imaging software should be used just for the OS and Programs and associated data. And thus, your typical imaging run should indeed be less than a half-hour, even with archive validation operations included.

Mixing huge amounts of data files with the OS and Programs, is a recipe for disaster. If you have terabytes of files, keeping them on a separate drive is highly recommended. And keep a synced copy of that drive on yet another drive for safety. Who wants to have to rebuild a 4-terabyte drive without a backup to work from? External drives are dirt cheap, and well worth the investment. And once you start syncing, you will not be copying terabytes of data in each backup operation — just the day’s or the week’s additions and changes.

-- rc primak

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I assume these versions refer to Acronis True image Home? That product has not been mentioned by name in this thread until now.

Yes Bob, sorry I was talking about Acronis True Image Home. I somehow thought it had been mentioned previously. I have version 2010 on my wife’s PC and version 2011 on my PC. In reviewing previous posts in this thread, I see Clint mentions Acronis in post # 2 and mentions a previous thread of mine. I guess I made a assumption. Sorry again.

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But for business purposes, what’s the best and cheapest alternative? Acronis costs $49.95 (or something like that) for EACH PC, as far as I can tell. Most free versions are only for home use. Is there any alternative for doing any of this in a small business that is cheap or free?

Thanks for any comments.

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RogerF,

Do you have a server? Normally all data in a business setting is on one machine (the server). The exception may be the .PST files for email (I even put those on a share on the server but don’t tell anyone as this is somewhat not recommended). For data backups, this is then the only machine that you have to deal with. You can then image the workstations one time as they are setup and whenever you make major changes using an Offline program. If your hardware is the same on the workstations, you can do one specially prepared image for all of them using Sysprep.

Several programs come to mind.

ImageX
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc722145(WS.10).aspx

Clonezilla
http://clonezilla.org/

Both of these are much more “techy” then the programs this thread is talking about but in the business setting you should be imaging workstations much less often and generally have access to a little more tech talent then the home user does.

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mercyh,

I support a small non-profit which has a half dozen PC’s on an adhoc network. Each PC has a different function, some are laptops, both Windows 7 and XP. There is no server, no paid technical support (I’m a volunteer), and no budget for fancy hardware. That’s why I’m looking for some sort of backup solution that is easy to use (hopefully for a non-technical secretary) and cheap/free for a business situation.

Thanks for any additional suggestions.

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I use Karen Kenworthy’s Replicator from her http://www.karenware.com Power Tools site. You can set backup time and location; you can set it to backup only files that have been changed; you cna set it to delete files in the backup that have been deleted in the original file, etc. In addition, I run Acronis True Image once a month. I feel well protected from losing valuable data.

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RogerF,

I also work with nonprofits. I have found this site to be a huge resource. Their stuff is not free but they charge 4% of retail to handle donations from software companies to nonprofits. Most donors have a fairly stringent set of rules as to what types of nonprofits they donate too but if you meet the requirements, you can pick up some real deals.

http://home.techsoup.org/pages/default.aspx

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Roger,

The problem with your setup is that if you lose one of those machines, you probably have no idea what all it does. The users are not helpful either until they can’t find a program they need. You are then left scrambling trying to figure it out and get it working again. Your situation cries for image backup….

Let me do a little looking. Some of the free home use programs add Nonprofit to their list of users that can use them for free…..

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Thanks, mercyh, for your additional comments. I have checked at TechSoup but couldn’t find any disk image options that looked possible. Thanks, Karl Whisennand, for the suggestion of Karen’s Replicator. I do in fact already use that for file/folder copy and it works pretty well, although rebuilding a disk (which I have to do twice) is time-consuming with just file/folder copy. I guess what I’m really looking for is a reliable cheap/free disk image maker for non-profits. If it could ALSO do individual file/folder backup/retrieval, that would be great so that I wouldn’t have to use two systems. Thanks again for any other comments.

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RogerF

http://www.techsoup.org/stock/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=TechSoupMain&category%5Fname=Symantec+Desktop+Products&product%5Fid=G%2D44592&Cat1=Symantec&Cat2=Symantec+Desktop+Products&CatCount=2

Norton ghost at $7.00 a license…

Hey all the rest of you, this is for nonprofits only………

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the license for this one:

http://www.todo-backup.com/products/

does not exclude businesses….

(It is free, I tested it at one point and ended up with Macrium but I can’t remember why. I do use their partition tool..)

I do remember why, No scheduling and no command line support….

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mercyh, thanks so much for both those suggestions. I will check them out.

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Two other aspects of Windows 7 backup I don’t like are 1) it does not overwrite the previous backup, but saves each one, and 2) it saves everything is such a way that you cannot look at individual files and folders on the backed up copy.

I am very glad Windows Backup keeps older copies of files. I had an Excel file get corrupted, and my most recent backup was corrupted as well. But the one before that was good. So I was able to get my data back.

Windows Backup and Restore for Win 7 Pro backs up files and folders. That is different from Create A System Image. As others have noted, creating a system image just for backups is rather overkill. Windows Backup and Restore enables you to specify what file(s) you want to restore.

What I would like is a backup system that 1) over-writes previous backups, 2) skips files which already exist on the backup disc and have not been revised, 3) backs up files which have been revised since the last backup and overwrites the previous version on the backup disc, 4) (ideally) replicates the filing system I have created on my main machine and lets me view it on the backup drive, and 5) doesn’t take all night about it.

For file synchronizing I use Backer (http://www.cordes-dev.com/). It’s not free, but works great. Not very expensive. Others have listed free synch programs.

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Just want to give a quick mention to the free backup program called Drive Image XML, and the latest version works with Windows 7 as well as earlier Windows. I think CNET’s Download.com has the free download.

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You guys got me fired up so I cleaned up both PCs, defragged both, and re-imaged both. I still use 2010 for my wife’s and 2011 for mine, so my 2010 is not going to waste. Both were finished in a combined time frame of about 45 minutes. I just can’t complain of that.

Just did the image of the computer I mentioned in another post that turned out to have a CPU that wasn’t seated somehow even though the heat sink was [seemingly] correctly and firmly attached. The initial base install of 18 gigs took one minute….under three hours, normal compression, including validation. Some of my other systems run up to and over 100 gigs base (games and video editing programs) which can take up the better part of a day to image. So either I would need faster software ( I use an older version of Acronis Workstation) it seems to get comparative results or my systems are much more industrial by comparison. I’m about to do the annual image on a system I’ve cut to the bone and gotten down to a 64 gig system partition and I’ll see how long that takes.

But for business purposes, what’s the best and cheapest alternative? Acronis costs $49.95 (or something like that) for EACH PC, as far as I can tell. Most free versions are only for home use. Is there any alternative for doing any of this in a small business that is cheap or free?

Cheap, relative (on a per station basis), free, no but doing it onesie twosie makes it look like a two-bit unprofessional operation (which it may be but we still don’t want it to look like it). I use Acronis Echo Workstation for small business which I think may now be called Acronis Backup & Recovery 10 Advanced Workstation, probably has more features, but basicly install the Workstation on one master PC and the Agent on the others and image them all from one PC over the network. Cost is $100 on the website, so that would be about $17 per unit in this case if no discount were found.

EDIT: Just had the additional thought that I am imaging over a network (gigabit) and there may be congestion at times and the image goes to a USB drive so in any case its limited to about 25mB/s there which may be contributing to some slowdown.

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Byron, Good evening.

I have no idea why your image of an 18 GB system takes you so long. The image size of my PC is 20.9 GB (normal compression image size) and includes all 3 partitions. I used Acronis True Image Home 2011. The total image time was about 20 minutes including validation. My wife’s PC image is slightly smaller at approx. 18 GB (again, normal compression size) and also includes all 3 partitions. I used Acronis True Image 2010 on her PC and the image including validation was approx. 17 minutes.

These systems are not super fast, mine is 2.53 GHz duo core with 4 GB RAM, hers is 2.03 GHz duo core ??? with 4 GB RAM. Both are laptops, Sony Vaio. Perhaps it is the different version of Acronis. I image both to a USB Ext HD (Seagate Go 1 TB).

I guess bottom line is I would try a different version of Acronis. As we have discussed previously, I would not use images to back up your data, that would take quite some time. Good luck with disccovering why your images are so time consuming. They should not be in my opinion. Cheers, Ted

Edit: 9/13/2010: Created a new Image for my PC using Acronis True Image Home 2011. Total time including validation was 15 minutes (timed by watching clock), total Image size was 20.1 GB (normal compression)

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Thanks Ted, your image-making books right along and must be pretty much maxing out the write speed to the USB external (~40 seconds per gig) in order to leave enough time for validation. I should probably try the latest version of Workstation and see if its any faster.

The production system I just did took 14 hrs. and 43 minutes to image the 74 gig (misreported earlier as 64) system partition, finishing a scant 41 miniutes before it went back to work. I wonder how Acronis deals with imaging if a system is actively adding gigabytes of data?

Anyway, same time next year!

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Thanks Ted, your image-making books right along and must be pretty much maxing out the write speed to the USB external (~40 seconds per gig) in order to leave enough time for validation. I should probably try the latest version of Workstation and see if its any faster.

The production system I just did took 14 hrs. and 43 minutes to image the 74 gig (misreported earlier as 64) system partition, finishing a scant 41 miniutes before it went back to work. I wonder how Acronis deals with imaging if a system is actively adding gigabytes of data?

Anyway, same time next year!

It seems to me that the problem isn’t Acronis, but the bottleneck that is your remote USB drive.

Why not write and verify the image to a fast access HDD (whether a secondary HDD on the machine itself, or a proper networked drive), and then copy the image file at a more leisurely pace to the external USB drive?

Or upgrade to an USB2 port to increase the write speed.

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Byron,

Thanks and have a great day. I do not know how ATI 2011 would work with a changing HD. Perhaps that is where the Workstation addition is necessary. My PC’s are not used nearly as heavily as yours, and that’s undoubtedly why mine scurries along so quickly.

cheers, Ted (I hope it’s not too early where you are, if so substitute java for amber fluid)

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I wonder how Acronis deals with imaging if a system is actively adding gigabytes of data?

This might throw some light on how it is managed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Copy

A very simplistic explanation is that the VSS service locks the volume for fraction of a second after telling every VSS aware application to write it’s memory cache back to disk. This state of the drive is copied and all the programs are released back to work. Any data added after this time is not on the backup….

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This might throw some light on how it is managed.

http://en.wikipedia….iki/Shadow_Copy

A very simplistic explanation is that the VSS service locks the volume for fraction of a second after telling every VSS aware application to write it’s memory cache back to disk. This state of the drive is copied and all the programs are released back to work. Any data added after this time is not on the backup….

Thanks mercyh, this would tend to indicate then that Acronis 2010 or 2011 would work in these situations as well. Good to know. Theoretically my 33 GB total used space (3 partitions) should take roughly 1/2 the time that Byrons’ 70+ GB ddrives takes. However, Byron’s image is MUCH slower. I am also imaging to a USB Ext HD. I have to believe the difference is the imaging app. Perhaps I’m wrong, but what else could the 13 hour difference be attributed to. That seems unbelievable slower.

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I am also imaging to a USB Ext HD.

Byron is imaging to a REMOTE Usb hard drive. You now have several possible restrictive links. Is every port on his switches between the two machines operating at 1gb speeds? How fast is his USB IO on the machine he has the drive plugged into? What else is running on his network?

I would look at disk and network throughput as the possible culprit but if you are only doing it monthly or yearly is it worth the time to track it down?

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Byron is imaging to a REMOTE Usb hard drive. You now have several possible restrictive links. Is every port on his switches between the two machines operating at 1gb speeds? How fast is his USB IO on the machine he has the drive plugged into? What else is running on his network?

I would look at disk and network throughput as the possible culprit but if you are only doing it monthly or yearly is it worth the time to track it down?

Ok, that explains the time frame of his images. Doing anything remotely does take time. Copying the 20 GB image from my USB flash drive to my desktop took about 11 minutes over a USB cable, but was going to take over 2 hours over my network (the 5 GHz mode we discussed in another thread)

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Byron is imaging to a REMOTE Usb hard drive.

I wonder is the Agent doing the imaging to the remote USB drive or is the Workstation doing the imaging via the Agent, in which case the USB drive would be local but constantly duplexing along the network(?).

I’ll try out the upgrade version and see if its any faster and also try some pure local and internal vs external imaging experiments when I get a chance; chart the differences.

I think the other question is answered about recording more data to the drive as its being imaged if I infer a little; that it would occur at the scheduled time and would probably only further affect the speed of the imaging. So the two could have overlapped without serious consequences.

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No further testing required. I just put Workstation to work on its own system partition while working on another computer and did two images before I even got half done with the task on the other computer. 24 minutes for 28 gigs to the external USB drive and just for giggles I set it to use the eSATA drive as the destination for another duplicate image…drumroll…10 minutes and 30 seconds.

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Byron,

That is super. What a speed difference!!! That is a much better time frame. Glad it worked for you. Have a great evening.

Ted

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One more thing which affects the speed of an Acronis True Image backup operation is what they call “priority”. You set this in the Performance Tab in TIH 2011. If the priority is raised ton High, the backup operation will speed along, but any local operations not related to Acronis will take a big performance hit. Still, the performance of the backup operation itself is speeded up so much that this may be worth the price of not being able to do much of anything else until the backup is complete. When the backup priority is set to High, the user interface reporting of operation progress will be slow or cease to update itself altogether, resulting in a post-operation lag before you can safely close the Acronis interface.

-- rc primak

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“priority”.

Ya, I set them all to Medium and left them pretty much alone so there’d be a good comparative base.

Looks like I should maybe upgrade (drags toes) cuz I installed the trial version of Workstation 10 and it works a little differently in that all PCs need to have the agent installed on them, including the Workstation PC and I just tested out a two partition dual boot backup, 106 gigs total and with verification it took 4 hours and 14 minutes OVER the NETWORK, which is considerably faster then the version I own seemed capable of.

Its either that or install my old Echo Workstation on each PC and do a local image, which I’m sure would break the EULA directly, but not the principle of imaging many systems with one license.(??)

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