Tongue tied

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I’m in need of a solution in adapting a Lockwood 001 Deadlatch to an outward opening door. The picture shows the setup for the normal inward opening door.

The problem is that when I try to close my door, the flat face of the lock tongue will just slam up against the face of the strike and won’t experience any sideways force to cause it to retract (then spring back open inside the strike).

The strike is actually irrelevant in my situation, because I’ll be using a cutout in a box tubular steel door jamb, which I can fiddle with at will. The lock must be mounted as shown on the inside of the door, and its internal construction prevents flipping the tongue over.

What I’m thinking of is some sort of smooth curve that the end of the tongue can sweep over as the door is closed. Such a curve (or cam or plate or whatever) would have to provide the necessary sideways force/displacement to the tongue to depress it (gradually to the fully depressed position) as it moved towards its receptacle hole in the strike. Any solution would need to be secure when the door was closed, so as not to allow vulnerability to forced entry.

Well, I’m stumped! Any bright ideas?

Alan

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My initial reaction is that if you leave the ‘tongue’ as is, to open the door, all you (may) need to do is push/pull, as the curve that allows you to easily push to door closed under normal operating circumstances will allow the opposite in your configuration….

N’est–ce pas?

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My initial reaction is that if you leave the ‘tongue’ as is, to open the door, all you (may) need to do is push/pull, as the curve that allows you to easily push to door closed under normal operating circumstances will allow the opposite in your configuration….

N’est–ce pas?

Opening is not a problem. From the inside, the knob can be turned to retract the tongue (to open or close). From the outside, turning the key will do the same. It’s pushing it closed from the outside that’s the problem. Maybe this will explain better, showing the closing of an outward-swinging door (top) and the “orthodox” inward-swinging door (bottom).

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Opening is not a problem…

If you succeed then you will find that opening really isn’t a problem, for you or a burglar, since a simple push will be all that is needed to open the “locked” door.

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If you succeed then you will find that opening really isn’t a problem, for you or a burglar, since a simple push will be all that is needed to open the “locked” door.

That’s what I’ve been trying to tell him… but does he listen….?

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That’s what I’ve been trying to tell him… but does he listen….?

In a land such as yours, free of the undesirable criminal element, simplistic locks like that may suffice. You seem to forget that you shipped all your problems over here and now it’s us that have to keep your lot out!

Alan

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It’s a very long time since we shipped you a boatload of convicts.

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It’s a very long time since we shipped you a boatload of convicts.

Does this mean we’re overdue?

Alan

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If you succeed then you will find that opening really isn’t a problem, for you or a burglar, since a simple push will be all that is needed to open the “locked” door.

I should have explained the details of the lock. The tongue/bolt can sit in one of two positions, as shown. When engaged in the strike (i.e. when the door is closed) it comes much further out and is also locked in that position, requiring actual turning from within the lock mechanism to slide it back in. It can’t be moved from outside the lock body. Believe me, they are a burglar’s nightmare!

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Note the two pin positions at the back of the tongue, in the door-open position (right) and the door-closed position (left). The funny looking plate above the tongue is pushed in up to its angled facet, just to give an idea of the gap between the door and the jamb, when closed. I’m starting to think about a guide attached to the jamb, for the tongue to track along before it gets captured in the strike.

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Here is my little idea but you need a humungous anglegrinder

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Here is my little idea but you need a humungous anglegrinder

Not sure how Jezza, but this has inspired another idea (shown in principle only) which I think may be doable within the flexibilities I have.

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Here is my little idea but you need a humungous anglegrinder

I like this idea the best, short of buying a lock made the other way. Adding the guide is a good idea too, but there would inevitably be a very slight gap between the surface where the guide mounts that could cause a bit of rough contact when closing. Just go slow with the grinder, and you might need to put a little dry graphite lube on it to get it to glide smoothly until it breaks in.

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I like this idea the best, short of buying a lock made the other way. Adding the guide is a good idea too, but there would inevitably be a very slight gap between the surface where the guide mounts that could cause a bit of rough contact when closing. Just go slow with the grinder, and you might need to put a little dry graphite lube on it to get it to glide smoothly until it breaks in.

I particularly like it as I can then justify the use of a humungous anglegrinder

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I particularly like it as I can then justify the use of a humungous anglegrinder

I’m going to try my double arc config first. Admittedly, I’ll only be using a normal angle grinder, but I will be making lots of sparks with the welding rod? Would that be a fair compromise?

Alan

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I know this isn’t the answer you want to hear, but…

When I needed to buy a secure nightlatch for an inward opening door I spoke to a locksmith, who persuaded me to buy a lock that was designed to be used this way. This lock was NOT as secure as my main front door lock, but it did meet BS3621:2007 (not the best of links but you have to pay to buy a copy of the standard).

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I know this isn’t the answer you want to hear, but…

When I needed to buy a secure nightlatch for an inward opening door I spoke to a locksmith, who persuaded me to buy a lock that was designed to be used this way. This lock was NOT as secure as my main front door lock, but it did meet BS3621:2007 (not the best of links but you have to pay to buy a copy of the standard).

This lock I have is actually recommended as a highly secure solution – for instance, insurance companies often discount their policies if theses are fitted to all house doors. You’ll probably laugh when I tell you that this whole conundrum relates to the back door of my garage. Mind you, if I were a burglar who’d cased the joint, the garage is where I’d hit first up – I’d hate to think of the Ks of $s worth of stuff in there. I believe there is an outward opening model, but they’re like hens teeth to find and soooooo expensive (a “special” item I suppose).

The other aspect to this is my natural pig-headed determination when annoying little things like the laws of physics get in the way of what I’m wanting to achieve.

Alan

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OK, I’ll bite.

Why did nobody tell him to simply turn over the tongue? No special tools needed, a saw blade is enough.

—
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7erard

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Why did nobody tell him to simply turn over the tongue? No special tools needed, a saw blade is enough.

Probably because he said ” …and its internal construction prevents flipping the tongue over.” in his first post?

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Probably because he said ” …and its internal construction prevents flipping the tongue over.” in his first post?

True, that info didn’t stick after seeing his pictures which suggest the contrary.

—
/
7erard.

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… pictures which suggest the contrary.

Quite possibly, but Alan is famous the world over for doing things the difficult way…

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… Alan is famous the world over for doing things the difficult way…

Au contraire Jezza. Your inspiration led me to the “bleedin’ obvious – a profile for the end of the tongue to follow as the door closes. Said profile will have to push it in from fully opened to fully retracted, as it approaches the door jamb. Ideally it would always be square to the tongue’s direction of retraction, but near enough’s good enough. A profiled piece of plate steel, welded to the jamb will do the trick I’m sure. The profile is just two circles touching. Well done Jezza!

Alan

Hopefully this diagram, of the door closing and tongue retracting by 15mm, explains it.

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Au contraire Jezza.

Au cointreau? I’ll drink to that, George!

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Au cointreau? I’ll drink to that, George!

Pardonez moi monsieur Leif. ‘Twas late at night and I thunked I was replying to Jezza. When somebody cans me on the Lounge, it’s hard to zero in on who it might be, from the plethora of possible candidates. Anyway, mustn’t keep you from Tesco! Hint: Often cheaper by the dozen, so there’s your excuse already!

Alan

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Why did nobody tell him to simply turn over the tongue? No special tools needed, a saw blade is enough.

As you may have gathered, these aren’t just ordinary locks. As stated in my original post, the internal construction makes simply flipping the tongue over impossible. The tongue is also made from heat-treated 440C Stainless Steel – very effective in knocking the teeth off hacksaw blades!

Alan

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Any bright ideas?

Just had a brilliant thought! Swap over the bit that goes in the door with the bit that goes in the door post. It means you’ll need to put the key in the wall but if nothing else, it will confuse the h*ll out of any burglar…

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One thing that has not been mentioned. On an outward opening door the hinge pins are on the outside. How are you securing the hinge side? All someone has to do is knock the pins out and gain entry whether the door is locked or not. Unless you “pin” the door to prevent it from being removed at the hinges. I had to do this on my back door that also opens outward. ( It opens outward to my dogs, no worries of someone coming in that way! )

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How are you securing the hinge side? All someone has to do is knock the pins out and gain entry whether the door is locked or not. Unless you “pin” the door to prevent it from being removed at the hinges.

That’s a good point. What do you mean by “pin” the door?

Alan

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Sparks and welding rods…..yes, in fact a requirement

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Is there any reason (other than $$$) not to do this ???

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Is there any reason (other than $$$) not to do this ???

o have not been able to find a local supplier; refuse to buy “remote” then have no support/ comeback.
o principle – I already have the standard model, so why the should I have to lash out again for essentially the same thing.
o see Leif’s comment – why do things the easy way when there’s an infinitely more complex path available?

Alan

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I did see Leif’s comment, but I guess I had a bit more faith.

Have you tried putting the lock on the other side of the door yet ??

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Alan, with due respect and as a domestic carpenter I offer you this. It’s often said that one needs the right tool for the job. The right tool for this job is in fact not a tool, it’s the right lock. I can say from experience that situations like this usually end up in the “It’s kind of ok, but it just doesn’t quite work right” basket. Doors and jambs swell and shrink and move around according to their environment. A DIY solution like this usually works one week and not the next. Living in Melbourne myself, I know what the 4-seasons-in-a-day weather does to external doors.

I’d advise to bite the bullet and just grab the lock designed for the application. I know it’s not what you want to hear.

Cheers
Michael

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Alan, with due respect and as a domestic carpenter I offer you this. It’s often said that one needs the right tool for the job. The right tool for this job is in fact not a tool, it’s the right lock. I can say from experience that situations like this usually end up in the “It’s kind of ok, but it just doesn’t quite work right” basket. Doors and jambs swell and shrink and move around according to their environment. A DIY solution like this usually works one week and not the next. Living in Melbourne myself, I know what the 4-seasons-in-a-day weather does to external doors.

I’d advise to bite the bullet and just grab the lock designed for the application. I know it’s not what you want to hear.

Cheers
Michael

Thanks for the advice Michael, and I know where you’re coming from. As a domestic carpenter too, I’m all too aware of the frustrations of external timber doors and frames. That’s why the door jambs are made from 50mm x 50mm tubular steel (as stated in my original post) bolted into brickwork. In fact the whole door (stiles + rails) and frame (jambs + lintel) contain no timber at all… all welded tubular steel and a non-timber cladding. And as a professional engineer, I know that this solution, if properly designed and implemented, will last as long as the garage will.

Alan

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Thanks for the advice Michael, and I know where you’re coming from. As a domestic carpenter too, I’m all too aware of the frustrations of external timber doors and frames. That’s why the door jambs are made from 50mm x 50mm tubular steel (as stated in my original post) bolted into brickwork. In fact the whole door (stiles + rails) and frame (jambs + lintel) contain no timber at all… all welded tubular steel and a non-timber cladding. And as a professional engineer, I know that this solution, if properly designed and implemented, will last as long as the garage will.

Alan

Hi Alan, after reading through all the posts in this thread and trying to digest the various diagrams/solutions I guess I forgot the jamb was steel construction. My mistake. However, as a qualified carpenter with no formal engineering training, if it were me in this situation I would just buy the lock. That’s the difference between a chippy and an engineer.

Having said that, my father in law is an engineer and quite brilliant in this regard. For close to 20 years I have seen him peck away at problem situations like this, and find very elegant solutions (even though a solution existed in the store down the road). The solution itself provides him no satisfaction, it’s finding it that he likes. This I understand and admire. It is what gets him out of bed each morning.

You’re clearly qualified to come up with a solution and I’m sure you will. Good luck.

Cheers
Michael

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Hi Alan, after reading through all the posts in this thread and trying to digest the various diagrams/solutions I guess I forgot the jamb was steel construction. My mistake. However, as a qualified carpenter with no formal engineering training, if it were me in this situation I would just buy the lock. That’s the difference between a chippy and an engineer.

Having said that, my father in law is an engineer and quite brilliant in this regard. For close to 20 years I have seen him peck away at problem situations like this, and find very elegant solutions (even though a solution existed in the store down the road). The solution itself provides him no satisfaction, it’s finding it that he likes. This I understand and admire. It is what gets him out of bed each morning.

You’re clearly qualified to come up with a solution and I’m sure you will. Good luck.

Cheers
Michael

It’s certainly a problem with several possible solutions. I’m sure the efficient tradesman would go for the obvious quick solution – buy the item appropriate to the job. I’d say that I’m more of your father in law’s ilk – I can see a possibility with what’s available already, and want to see it through to a working solution. I guess this is the way I’ve learned to work. I cut my engineering teeth with R&D in the aerospace industry. On more than one occasion we’ve developed an elegant solution at the laboratories, only to find that when we go to trial it in the field, all they have at the air base is a roll of baling wire and a pair of pliers!

It’s like a lot of things I guess – horses for courses. Still, discussions like this in the Puzzles forum do tend to attract a lot of input and obviously get a few people thinking. I tend to like them, even if they’re somebody else’s problem in need of a solution.

Alan

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