Protecting us from TikTok

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I have mixed feelings about the upcoming TikTok ban. While not a huge user/follower of the app, I can appreciate someone who has built a business on a
[See the full post at: Protecting us from TikTok]

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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We are spied on here yes (though no one forces you to use any social media), but there is a big difference between being spied on by a western democracy and being spied on by an autocratic regime that’s engaged in active genocide and employs a social credit system. There is no company in China that doesn’t operate at the largesse of the CCP. Not a single one. You either play ball there or you get kicked out or shut down. Wonder why Apple has an isolated ecosystem just for China, hosted in Chinese data centers? Yeah, that’s why.

While yes, especially in the US, people should be concerned about increasing levels of autocracy, especially with the incoming administration, let’s not pretend that these two governments are remotely equal in their intentions.

A big question for me is why supposedly privacy-centric tech companies like Apple have no problems with apps like TikTok and WeChat being on their stores, despite all the publicized security concerns with them.

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Gerry Corcoran wrote:

A big question for me is why supposedly privacy-centric tech companies like Apple have no problems with apps like TikTok and WeChat being on their stores, despite all the publicized security concerns with them.

“supposedly”—that’s your answer.

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WSbobby-p

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My opinion of the TikTok ban: It’s complete B.S.

If the government wants to ban TikTok (and all social media) from government computers/devices, that sounds like a good idea.

…but decreeing that private citizens are not allowed to use a particular social media service just because it’s owned by a non-US company is completely ridiculous.

I’ve always been of the opinion: if you don’t want to use it, don’t use it.

Having said the above, 99% of the time I hear name TikTok in the news it’s followed by some story highlighting the idiocrasy of some subset of its users.

I’ve never used TikTok and have no desire to begin using it, but strongly disagree with the goverment deciding which services are and are not permissible to use merely because they want them hosted in the US so THEY can do the spying.

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I have been trying to figure out what this ban covers exactly, but the media have been utterly hopeless in conveying this info.

The media keep calling Tik Tok “an app,” but that is not accurate. Tik Tok is a web site, like Youtube, that has an available (and optional) front-end on the two major mobile platforms. When I first started reading that “the app” would be banned, I interpreted that to mean just what it said– the app itself will be removed from the Apple App Store and Google Play store (but the site itself, not having been mentioned at all, would be unaffected). I still have yet to figure out whether or not that is the case, and I have read a bunch of articles that all leave the same gaping holes in the story.

For example, Christine Mui and Josh Gerstein wrote a Politico article that states (referring to what happens after the ban goes into effect):

The way the ban works, TikTok will no longer be able to be downloaded legally from app stores. Google and Apple haven’t revealed their plans for Jan. 19, but are expected to comply with taking TikTok down given the enormous fines at stake.

Even so, users with TikTok already downloaded can still access the app. But other service providers will be barred from supporting it, the app will stop updating and gradually become unusable.

“Other service providers” will be barred from “supporting” it. What does that even mean? What other service providers “support” the app other than the Apple App Store and Google Play, and what do they mean by “support?”

The large majority of people have no idea that getting apps from other sources (known as sideloading) is possible within Android, and Apple forbids the practice completely, going to great lengths to ensure people don’t have the ability to procure apps anywhere else.

The Politico article in question makes no mention of the web site that actually contains all of the content seen by users of the app.

The article from The Hill is not much better:

Though the app would not automatically disappear for users who already downloaded it, TikTok is expected to eventually become unworkable, as the law blocks app stores from distributing the app or providing updates.

However, the platform is reportedly also considering shutting down the app entirely if the ban goes into effect Sunday.

Again, zero mention of anything outside of “the app.” The site that forms the backend for the app knows whether it is being accessed via the app or a browser, so having the app “go dark” does not suggest that the site itself will do so. After having read so many articles, I am still completely in the dark about that.

It’s annoying that supposed journalists do not do the research necessary to get the complete information out to the public. Despite writing on a tech topic, they show little understanding of that tech… which, I suppose, mirrors that of the congresscritters who wrote the law and the man who signed it.

I question how much damage to national security a silly video app can really do when used by regular people (not on devices used to conduct sensitive operations, like those owned by the US government). Most of us have no information that is of any use to China, no matter how hostile its intent (and I fully support the notion that they be treated as a geopolitical rival by the US government).

It is possible for an app on a phone to collect and transmit more data than one would normally expect a web site to have access to, if the user has allowed the privacy privileges on the app that are necessary to collect that data. I have no doubt that many users of the app would simply hit ‘allow’ for everything, but having permissions not nominally necessary for a video sharing/viewing app would be a big red flag. Having never used said app, I don’t know if those red flags are present or not.

As for the notion that Tik Tok be banned because it is a conduit for Chinese propaganda, that is a non-starter for me (as it appears to have been for Justice Gorsuch). Propaganda is protected speech. For a Democrat, what a Republican says is propaganda. For a Republican, what a Democrat says is propaganda. We can’t go banning any kind of speech on the basis that it is propaganda, because everything is propaganda to someone, and it does not matter whether it is truthful, half-truthful, or a complete lie. It’s still propaganda.

The only way to arrive at the truth is to have everyone state their piece, have the debate, and let the better ideas rise to the top (which, in a free and open debate, they will, since they have the advantage of truth on their side, even if that process can sometimes take longer than one would hope). Having “fact-checkers” decide what the truth is for everyone has not worked, as Zuckerberg has recently mentioned. The “fact-checkers” of the era once declared it to be misinformation to state that Earth goes around the Sun rather than the other way around!

Personally, I fail to see the merit of a video site that caters to short-form, portrait-oriented content. Vines came and went, and that same niche is occupied by Tik Tok, Youtube Shorts, and whatever it is that Facebook has. Attention spans are getting so short that we will have the apocryphal goldfish laughing at us. My disdain for the format, though, does not mean it should be banned.

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Myst

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“spied on”
I don’t happen to do tictok but that’s just out of laziness and not being particularly social media oriented though I am starting a YT channel…

I make it a practice to not post anything anywhere that I would not want put on a large billboard outside my apartment. If everyone did that we wouldn’t have a spying problem. People post stuff and for some unknown reason fantasize that it will remain secret. I knew better back at DOS 3.11 .

Back around 1980 I was doing tech support for an IBM mainframe for a large hospital when someone handed me a copy of a letter that my boss had written to his girlfriend. NOTHING is secret!!!

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Yes we are spied on by a lot of places on the Internet and elsewhere.  Having one’s personal email or info. read by a fellow employee might be embarrassing, but TicToc is owned by a Chinese company in China called Byte Dance.  I would not think anyone would want their personal data to be accessed by a Chinese company.

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I don’t want my personal data to be accessed by an American company without me knowing exactly what they intend to do with it. American businesspeople are not any more or less ethical than Chinese businesspeople if it meant a higher return on investment.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Glucose, SueW, wavy, Mark, Ascaris, Alex5723, TechTango, madhatter, satrow

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Gerry Corcoran did a much better job than I in post #2740328 above, which goes into more detail about the Chinese government.  Wish I had read that before doing my post.  There’s more I could say but it’s against rules.

 

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It’s not the fear of what Chinese businesspeople will do with the data, nor what American businesspeople will do with the data, that is the main concern. It’s what the Chinese and American governments will do with the data the businesspeople slurp up… and in either case, the governments in question will have that data.

As an American, I am not all that concerned about what China will do with any data about me. I’m not in China, nor do I ever plan to be. Their ability to “reach out and touch” me is limited, given my geographic isolation from their shores.

On the other hand, I am very much within the range of the American government if it should decide to target me. We’ve seen things happen already, like people being arrested based solely on location data from their phones by Google, and promptly handed over to the US government whenever they ask. Simply being in the proximity of where something happened has been enough for people to be targeted.

If people who insist they have nothing to hide and therefore nothing to fear… well, here you go. If that data is never collected by Google, it cannot be handed over to the government, and you can’t be targeted for inadvertently being in the vicinity when something bad happened.

The US government itself could never implement that kind of warrantless, broad-scale spying, as it would be against the Fourth Amendment, but Google can do it with impunity, then hand the data over to the government, which can use (or misuse) it how they see fit.

For me, the risk of what any given American big tech company slurping up as much data as they can about me, then handing that over to the government, is a much bigger concern than China doing the same. I don’t want to be spied upon by anyone, but if I have to be spied on by someone, I would rather it be China or Russia or some other autocratic state thousands of miles away.

This law, though, is not about protecting me, or you, or any other individual from China. It is about protecting the US government against China. It’s just that I fail to see how collecting scads of mundane data about millions of ordinary Americans is going to harm the US government’s interests, or benefit the Chinese government’s interests. I have no problem with the Tik Tok app being banned on phones owned by the US government and used for official purposes, or on the phones of anyone conducting business for the government under any level of security clearance. The danger there is easy to imagine.

What, though, is the government’s risk when American teens share the latest questionable Tik Tok challenge? The large majority of Americans are of no interest to rival nations. We don’t do anything interesting or notable to them, so having China know when I went to the grocery store or other similar things is not going to harm the US government’s interests.

 

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satrow

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You folk are missing the threat entirely (I am not saying the law writers did not as well). The real threat is INFLUENCE via opaque algorithms in control of a malign power that give subtle nudges in our opinions and point of view. And yes I do not credit many with having well developed critical thinking skills. That much is evident.

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Andy M

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IOW Subliminal thought control..nah, no-one can be that stupid..can they?
How would we know? 😉

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I’m not missing the point. The reason the law was upheld in the Supreme Court was the (supposed) national security concerns. As Justice Gorsuch said, that alone is why he signed on to the decision, with no consideration given to the “influence” argument, and  am certain he is not the only justice who thought this way. The reason for this is clear: Attempting to influence the political opinions and actions of another is protected by the First Amendment.

As such, any discussion of how a Chinese-owned site can wield its official perspective to try to bring people around to its point of view is a non-starter. The law cannot be considered on that basis. Just as US news sites have a strong bias toward one side or the other and are supporting a given point of view with all they do or say, a given video hosting site has the prerogative to promote videos that support its point of view or to suppress or censor those that do not. It is shameful if it chooses to do this, but it is not grounds for a ban by any means. Having and promoting a point of view that a given group of people in the government dislike is no justification for a ban.

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TikTok has officially shut down in the United States

Important update from TikTok

We regret that a U.S. law banning TikTok will take effect on January 19 and force us to make our services temporarily unavailable.

We’re working to restore our service in the U.S. as soon as possible, and we appreciate your support. Please stay tuned…

* Apple tonight removed TikTok from the App Store in the U.S
* TikTok has also been removed from the Google Play store on Android

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Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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The web site is shut down as well.

I guess I have my answer!

All of the articles mention the apps, as if the apps are equal to Tik Tok. They are not, of course.

Tik Tok is, first and primarily, a web site, and like most large web sites, it has mobile apps to act as front-ends.

The Huffington Post has an app, but that does not mean that the Huffington Post is an app. If someone said the Huffington Post was going to be shut down, people would not likely be thinking in terms of the app being removed from the App or Play store.

People understand, I think, that it is a web site first and an app second.

That does not appear to be the case with Tik Tok. Of all the articles that I read in advance of the shutdown, none of them even mentioned the possibility that the web site that makes the app work would be shut down. It was all “they’re going to be removed from the app stores!” They often did mention that the plan was for the apps to “go dark” once the deadline came and went, but again, almost no one mentioned the web site at all, and none that did addressed the issue directly.

It would be trivially easy to block the app from accessing the service while leaving the website intact, so it doesn’t really follow that the app “going dark” means that the site would be shut down as well. One could guess that this would be what they would do, but it shouldn’t have been necessary to guess after I read more than half a dozen articles on the topic.

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Sites mentioned that Oracle will shut down its TikTok serves, which it did.

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Perplexity AI makes a bid to merge with TikTok U.S.

Perplexity AI submitted a bid on Saturday to TikTok parent ByteDance, proposing that Perplexity merge with TikTok U.S., CNBC has learned.

The new structure would allow for most of ByteDance’s existing investors to retain their equity stakes and would bring more video to Perplexity, according to a source familiar with the situation.

Though any potential transaction would likely take months to complete, President-elect Donald Trump said he “most likely” would give TikTok 90 more days to work out a deal…

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https://support.apple.com/en-us/121596

* Apple removed all these ByteDance apps from App Store :

..Pursuant to the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act, apps developed by ByteDance Ltd. and its subsidiaries — including TikTok, CapCut, Lemon8, and others — will no longer be available for download or updates on the App Store for users in the United States starting January 19, 2025…

The following are some of the apps developed by ByteDance Ltd. and its subsidiaries that are affected:

TikTok

TikTok Studio

TikTok Shop Seller Center

CapCut

Lemon8

Hypic

Lark – Team Collaboration

Lark – Rooms Display

Lark Rooms Controller

Gauth: AI Study Companion

MARVEL SNAP..

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As of 10:50 am MST, the site is back up.

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What a joke. This is all theater.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Glucose, wavy

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Oracle probably got a promise not to sue $5000 for each user using the web site.

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Theater? Circus is more appropriate.
Get used to it for the next four years!

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NYT :

TikTok Flickers Back to Life After Trump Says He Will Stall a Ban

President-elect Trump said he would issue an executive order to stall a federal ban of TikTok. Some users saw the social media app come back online.

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wavy wrote:

NYT :

TikTok Flickers Back to Life After Trump Says He Will Stall a Ban

President-elect Trump said he would issue an executive order to stall a federal ban of TikTok. Some users saw the social media app come back online.

* He can’t issue an executive order without changing the law in congress, which will fail.

https://x.com/TikTokPolicy/status/1881030712188346459

“STATEMENT FROM TIKTOK:

In agreement with our service providers, TikTok is in the process of restoring service. We thank President Trump for providing the necessary clarity and assurance to our service providers that they will face no penalties providing TikTok to over 170 million Americans and allowing over 7 million small businesses to thrive.

It’s a strong stand for the First Amendment and against arbitrary censorship. We will work with President Trump on a long-term solution that keeps TikTok in the United States.

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Alex5723 wrote:

He can’t issue an executive order without changing the law in congress, which will fail.

At this point in time, what can and can not be done may not have a direct relation to the law. Buckle up!

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wavy wrote:

Alex5723 wrote:

He can’t issue an executive order without changing the law in congress, which will fail.

At this point in time, what can and can not be done may not have a direct relation to the law. Buckle up!

Trump has issue an executive order of 75 days delay but Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon.. are still blocking the TikTok.

btw. No one has changed maps from Gulf of Mexico to Gulf of America.

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That did not age well…

 

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I agree; our government turns a blind eye to the data pimps of Silicon Valley every day, and comes down hard on Tik Tok. We need data privacy protections from Big Tech now! Unfortunately, this data empowers big government, and the campaign contributions are irresistible to our money-grubbing polticians.

Why are we actually doing something about Tik Tok and not worrying as much about fentanyl, another addictive export with precursors and finished product both coming from China? I do some work with the homeless community in my home city, and one winter warming shelter had to administer narcan to reverse four OD’s in one night. It seems like we should deal with all of the addictive things coming out of China – both apps and substances.

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WSbobby-p

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As Google removed TikTok app from Google Play store TikTok is out with Android APK.

https://x.com/TikTokPolicy/status/1888048200486949249

“@TikTokPolicy
We’re enhancing ways for our community to continue using TikTok by making Android Package Kits available at http://TikTok.com/download so that our U.S. Android users can download our app and create, discover, and connect on TikTok.

More information at our Help Center: https://support.tiktok.com/en/getting-started/creating-an-account/download-tiktok”

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TikTok apps are back on Apple store and Google play store, after US Attorney General Pam Bondi has reportedly sent a letter to Apple and Google assuring the company that restoring TikTok for the time being doesn’t violate the law.

* I thought that the Congress has to approve that restoring TikTok for the time being doesn’t violate the law, not the DOJ.

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