Partitioning and moving user profiles in Win7

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Much has been written about separating the operating environment and the user data. This can be done as multiple partitions, either as an additional partition on an existing drive or as a partition on a whole separate drive. The main reasons to do this are:
1) The backup/restore patterns are different for the operating environment and the user data.
2) Better accessibility to data by multiple operating environments

My major reason for attempting this is backup and restore. As I see it, the operating system itself and the programs are very intertwined in windows because of the registry. As a result, if the operating environment (operating systems + programs) becomes broken, and back-out solutions do not work, either a reinstall or a format and restore kind of solution is required. It is far easier to do either of those if the data is all safety hidden away in a separate partition.

I just got a new machine with Win 7 home pro 64 bit. I am going to migrate from an old machine running XP pro 32 bit. I want to set up the machine as outlined above. I have partitioned the hard drive into a c: drive of 200GB and a D: drive with the rest. What I want to do is keep the operating system and the programs on the C: drive and the user data on the D:/ drive.

Windows 7 has finally gotten allmost all of the user data into c:user…. However, Microsoft has NOT made it easy to move this file to another partition I am not at all sure why they didn’t. They made it easy to relocate PIECES of this folder, but not all of it. I am looking for either insight as to why they made this difficult (as in this is a bad idea because…) or for the secret magic technique to accomplish this.

The simple solution would have been a way to go to computer… c:/; then right click users, left click the locations tab go down to the location, change the c: to a d: and click apply… This works for documents, music, fotos, desktop and others, but not for appdata… But, for some inane reason, this does not work at the c:users level.

I found a 35 page description of a way to do this using “junctions” that is sounding promising aqlthough a bit complex. For those who are interested, it is located at http://www.starkeith.net/coredump/2009/05/18/how-to-move-your-windows-user-profile-to-another-drive/

If there are better ways, I would like to hear about them.

The reason to move the data to it’s own place is also to allow backups that can be either restored in bulk or that can allow a single file to be restored. I am curently surveying to see what backup program will allow this and yet be as simple and automatic as possible. I think I am going to investigate Accronis first I am just starting this search so any leads would be appreciated.

Please chime in here with thoughts and suggestions……

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check out this.

http://www.bbearren.com/set7free/set7free.html

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Jim, is there a reason why you need a C: Drive of 200gb ? My 2 PC’s are both 45ish gb and both have ample free space available.

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I was also going to add that I use a C drive of 75 GB on my systems. 200 GB does seem much more than necessary if all data is going into a sepatate partition. Moving you data to a separate partition is relatively easy. PCWorldshows a method that is very easy and straight forward, than does sound similar to what you mentioned. I included this link for others that may not know how to do this. It does show easy step by step instructions.

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Mercyh….
Thanks for the reference. It will take me awhile to digest it, but is looks like a valuable reference. It seems a bit strange that one has to go to such lengths and be concerned about using standard backup techniques just because you separated the backup of system and data…

Roderunner….
I made my system partition 200gb mostly because I was afraid I might wimp out on this effort and leave some data on the c: drive. In addition, I am not moving my programs folder and have no idea how big that might become. I also didn’t know if I was going to tackle temporary data that does not need to be backed up, like internet temp, paging, and the hibernation files. Moving these have performance implications. Does your 45ish gb partition have user programs on it too?

Ted….
Thank you for the reference. This article follows the path started on before I started this thread. It seems to follow the path that Microsoft wants you to use to accomplish this objective. My biggest problem with it is trying to move appdata. Of course, the whole process should be made much easier. The article does suggest ways to get outlook data moved from appdata, but other applications also appdata to store user data too. So if you leave appdata on c:, you do not have all of your user data together in your data partition.

To continue:
I do not know why Microsoft elected to make this process so difficult. All they had to do is put a step in the install that asks where I would like to place my data and then set things up to support that. Or, alternatively, they should allow me to go to computer; right click on c:users (or c:usersJim); select location; change the location; and click apply and then answer the questions.. Why they don’t do this mystifies me. Is it better to move some of the data microsoft’s way; to move everything using things like junctions or just give up? All I want is to do is simplify the backup/restore process….. I want to do infrequent full backups of my operating system, where I will only want to restore the whole thing. And, I want to do much more frequent, reasonably automated, backups of changed data in such a way as I can either restore all of my data or any file or folder in the data. Does anyone else want to do this too?

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Roderunner….
I made my system partition 200gb mostly because I was afraid I might wimp out on this effort and leave some data on the c: drive. In addition, I am not moving my programs folder and have no idea how big that might become. I also didn’t know if I was going to tackle temporary data that does not need to be backed up, like internet temp, paging, and the hibernation files. Moving these have performance implications. Does your 45ish gb partition have user programs on it too?

Jim
All I put on C: is my installed progs and my pictures that is used for wallpaper and adding to emails. Everything else is on partition D: and 2 external USB connecting hdd’s. When I do a backup image its under 5gb’s.
The only file you could or IMHO should move is ‘My Documents’ I did it when using XP Pro. W7 is a different kettle of fish, so have not done so, mainly as I don’t know how or need to.

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Mercyh….
Thanks for the reference. It will take me awhile to digest it, but is looks like a valuable reference. It seems a bit strange that one has to go to such lengths and be concerned about using standard backup techniques just because you separated the backup of system and data…

If I may…
Windows 7 uses hundreds of Junction Points. Applications that call out a specific path can traverse these junctions points if they have the required permissions. However, attempts to enumerate the contents of the junctions points will result in failures. It is important that backup applications do not traverse these junction points, or attempt to backup data under them for two reasons: doing so can cause the backup application to back up the same data more than once; it can also lead to cycles (circular references).

I have used drive imaging for backup for a number of years for the reliability and safety. To a drive image, a junction point is just 1’s and 0’s; nothing at all special about it, and it will be included in the image without incident. I continue to recommend only drive imaging for backup purposes because of the ability to achieve a total recovery under even the most dire circumstances.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Why they don’t do this mystifies me. Is it better to move some of the data microsoft’s way; to move everything using things like junctions or just give up?

I think you mentioned it earlier yourself that parts of the Users substructure is very intertwined with the registry so MS doesn’t want it to be moved so in order to do so you would have to go with the junctions option. I do it the so-called Microsoft way by moving the data folders that are allowed and then use a syncronizing program (I use Syncback) to syncronize the data with another network location on a daily basis. I image the system partition after the initial base install and then whenever there is a big change or for me on about an annual basis.

Of course the easiest method I ever used for moving data folders (the Microsoft way) is with XP in that I just right click and hold, drag and drop to the new partition, it ask me if I want to move the data over as well, I click yes and its done. Still can’t beat that for simplicity.

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recommend only drive imaging for backup purposes because of the ability to achieve a total recovery under even the most dire circumstances

That’s a fine method as long as one doesn’t mind firing up the big dog (image software) as often as is required to keep the data partition(s) up to date.

I’ve never seen any difference in recovery restrictions either because even in the event of entire hard drive failure, the system partition goes back on and the Data partition relationship is dead simple to re-establish either before or after the data backup is put back on.

Whatever works best as far as the user is concerned and causes the least time annoyance.

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That’s a fine method as long as one doesn’t mind firing up the big dog (image software) as often as is required to keep the data partition(s) up to date.

I’ve never seen any difference in recovery restrictions either because even in the event of entire hard drive failure, the system partition goes back on and the Data partition relationship is dead simple to re-establish either before or after the data backup is put back on.

Whatever works best as far as the user is concerned and causes the least time annoyance.

The “big dog” I use fits on a floppy disk; and not everything needs to be backed up every time. A well thought-out partitioning system and file placement strategy makes it fairly simple, quick and easy.

What works best for me is being able to restore my entire system to bare metal without losing a beat. I can do that. Check my web site for more details.

One’s backup regimen depends on what one is willing to lose forever.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Brian:
I have found that almost all of the folders in my “users” directory can be moved by using the “right click properties; change the location method. This must be done on the highest folder in the tree that will allow you to do it. After you are done, you have essentially reproduced the entire c:usersjim directory on another drive.

I have not tested what this actually does in practice. I am concerned that new apps will add more folders to my root c:usersjim and I will miss that they are there. This could result in having an incomplete data backup. I also have not tested yet to see if things go where I intend them to by default (i. e. if my documents go into d:usersjimdocuments and music goes into d:usersjimmusic and the like.

Moving this stuff was definitely easier on Win XP as you point out. Now I have to move all of the folders separately. If there is “intertwined” stuff, I think that Microsoft should create a file like the registry that kind of thing.. They definitely made this process more complex.

Roderunner:
I have been looking at the other stuff that goes in c: by default and having moved every folder that I could relocate using the location property as described above, I see no need for a c: partition as big as I have. I will be shrinking that to somewhere between 50GB and 100GB over the weekend. Then I will start using my new structure and let you all know how it works for me.

bbearren:
I am only just now learning about junction points. I am even less savvy about the intricacies of permissions.. On one hand, using the junction point method of moving c:users in it’s entirety would seem like a good approach that ties up all the loose ends… But on the other hand, there seem to be lots of hidden gotchas with the junction method. I am not exactly sure I understand what you meant when you referred to having a backup program “traverse” a junction point. In my fantasy world, I want to back up your os partition C: with an imaging program. This will work well because:
1) the drive doesn’t change much 2) the backup is small 3) All of the data should be restored together.

On the other hand, I would want to back up the d: partition (where my data is) using a more sophisticated backup scheme that would allow either bulk recovery of the entire drive, or selective recovery of a single file or group of files. These backups would be taken much more frequently and may incorporate things like “incremental” backups. I have not yet figured out what program to use for this.

If I am backing up d:usersjim where i have set it up under the junction point method, I am traversing the junction point, yes? And that is bad, yes?

Your concept seems to be to do an image of system and data. That would seem to create huge backups. Because data changes frequently, they would need to be done frequently. I am unaware of any kind of “incremental” capability in any image program I have used. Does such exist? I am guessing what you are suggesting is to take images of pieces of partitions and then reassemble as needed at recovery time. Seems to me, this approach just begs me to screw it up, either because I forgot to back up a piece or because a piece changed in a way I didn’t expect, so I back it up incorrectly.

All:
I am going to shrink my c: partition over the weekend. Then I may test my “Microsoft method” environment and see how it works. I will study junction points some more, but I am really hesitant about the gotchas with that method. Thank you for all of your input!

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bbearren:
I am only just now learning about junction points. I am even less savvy about the intricacies of permissions.. On one hand, using the junction point method of moving c:users in it’s entirety would seem like a good approach that ties up all the loose ends… But on the other hand, there seem to be lots of hidden gotchas with the junction method. I am not exactly sure I understand what you meant when you referred to having a backup program “traverse” a junction point. In my fantasy world, I want to back up your os partition C: with an imaging program. This will work well because:
1) the drive doesn’t change much 2) the backup is small 3) All of the data should be restored together.

On the other hand, I would want to back up the d: partition (where my data is) using a more sophisticated backup scheme that would allow either bulk recovery of the entire drive, or selective recovery of a single file or group of files. These backups would be taken much more frequently and may incorporate things like “incremental” backups. I have not yet figured out what program to use for this.

If I am backing up d:usersjim where i have set it up under the junction point method, I am traversing the junction point, yes? And that is bad, yes?

Your concept seems to be to do an image of system and data. That would seem to create huge backups. Because data changes frequently, they would need to be done frequently. I am unaware of any kind of “incremental” capability in any image program I have used. Does such exist? I am guessing what you are suggesting is to take images of pieces of partitions and then reassemble as needed at recovery time. Seems to me, this approach just begs me to screw it up, either because I forgot to back up a piece or because a piece changed in a way I didn’t expect, so I back it up incorrectly.

All:
I am going to shrink my c: partition over the weekend. Then I may test my “Microsoft method” environment and see how it works. I will study junction points some more, but I am really hesitant about the gotchas with that method. Thank you for all of your input!

Visit my website and give a read to “Partitioning and Backup Options” for a more in-depth look at my backup regimen. I’ve made some changes to my systems since that was written, but the underlying principles are the same, and work the same way in Windows 7 for drive imaging.

I use multiple partitions/drives. Not everything need be backed up frequently. The Program Files folder, for example, only needs to be backed up when you install a new application, or uninstall an old one IF you have all your applications’ preferences set to save to your data drive(s), which I have done. For my own purposes, when I am trying out a new application to see if it fits my needs, I will install it to a temporary folder. If I decide to keep it, I’ll then move it to the Program Files folder. If it doesn’t suit me, I simply uninstall it.

By using multiple partitions, the drive images are smaller, and more specific.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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I have found that almost all of the folders in my “users” directory can be moved by using the “right click properties; change the location method. This must be done on the highest folder in the tree that will allow you to do it. After you are done, you have essentially reproduced the entire c:usersjim directory on another drive.

That’s the “Microsoft way” that has been mentioned. I’ve been using that method for the better part of a decade now and its very transparent and effective. Once in a while something will be hard coded and want to put a folder in original location but that can almost always be redirected. I can’t remember the last time it happened to me but it has happened.

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I fully agree with bbearen on this one. In my mind drive images actually use LESS space for backup then other methods. You basically want the whole machine backed up anyway. If you can create a partition that includes ONLY data, you will be replicating that partition somewhere for backup. If you use Synctoy or some other method of copying just the files you are doing it with no compression. If you do it with an image, you can take advantage of compression and can do a better job of saving versions.

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I also use imaging for my major back up needs and have restored more often from thiose images than I care to admit. When I image my HD, I include all 3 partitions (OS, page file and data partitions) The Image creation only takes about 20-25 minutes including validation. I do recreate a new Image each time a major change takes place or new app is installed. This usually occurs weekly. My images are stored on a USB Ext HD (Seagate Go 1 TB) My use of my personal PCs does not include the massive data changes that many others do include, so imaging my data partition does not create a major problem since the amount of data is very manageable. For those that have huge data files, the Imaging path for the data partition would not be practical. This is why I suggest a C Drive of something in the range of 75 Gb or so is plenty for the OS and all apps and non-moveable portions of Win 7. This way Imaging the C Drive is very manageable and not particularly time consuming. My C Drive presently is about 25 Gb with all 3 partitions at about 35Gb or so.

A C Drive of 75 Gb is generally more than enough to hold the OS and all apps. (I have Win 7 Ultimate, Office 2010 complete install and many other apps and only have the 25 Gb in size.)

Well, I guess that’s enough for now. Good luck with your back up needs. Mine are very much fullfilled by Imaging, using Acronis True Image 2011 (my PC) and Acronis True Image 2010 (wife’s PC).

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I fully agree with bbearen on this one. In my mind drive images actually use LESS space for backup then other methods. You basically want the whole machine backed up anyway. If you can create a partition that includes ONLY data, you will be replicating that partition somewhere for backup.

I see this suggestion all the time and its fine, but, its also a strong argument for doing no partitioning at all in such a backup regimen since it just makes more datapoints to keep track of all the time. Its the one image in triplicate (original and most recent two minimum) vs. two, three, four or more all in triplicate. Image 3 or 4 multi-partition systems and back them all up in one central location and it quickly becomes quite the stockpile of partition images to manage.
So if one is going to image everything, makes more sense to just make one image, which most will do in a multi-partiion in one arrangement anyway, again strongly suggesting one partition should be employed (in other words what’s the point of breaking a system into partitions if one lumps them all together all the time anyway?). The only reason I partittion is to employ a backup strategy with a differential methodology, in other words, I treat the data very differently than the OS and apps so seperate partitions is of greater convenience.

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I see this suggestion all the time and its fine, but, its also a strong argument for doing no partitioning at all in such a backup regimen since it just makes more datapoints to keep track of all the time. Its the one image in triplicate (original and most recent two minimum) vs. two, three, four or more all in triplicate. Image 3 or 4 multi-partition systems and back them all up in one central location and it quickly becomes quite the stockpile of partition images to manage.
So if one is going to image everything, makes more sense to just make one image, which most will do in a multi-partiion in one arrangement anyway, again strongly suggesting one partition should be employed (in other words what’s the point of breaking a system into partitions if one lumps them all together all the time anyway?). The only reason I partittion is to employ a backup strategy with a differential methodology, in other words, I treat the data very differently than the OS and apps so seperate partitions is of greater convenience.

Actually, the way I do it, there are fewer image files. My current “Program Files” drive image is over 3 months old, yet it is current. There is no need to create a new image, or include the “Program Files” folder in one huge image file. Why create a fresh backup when the old backup is still “fresh”?

There are a number of partitions that I never image at all, as they are used for temporary files and video editing and the like. There is no need to image such partitions.

I have a total of 820GB of storage on my main PC, and there is absolutely no need whatsoever to have two humongous image files.

I have only two or three image files to make at any one time; they are small enough to burn to DVD, which I do. The DVD’s are very easy to label with a sharpie as to partition and date. It is really quite simple, easy to keep track of, and rock solid.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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I see this suggestion all the time and its fine, but, its also a strong argument for doing no partitioning at all in such a backup regimen since it just makes more datapoints to keep track of all the time

Not exactly. The OS partition only needs to be imaged maybe monthly. The data partition should be imaged daily or at least biweekly in most cases. The fact is though that the casual user may have total used space on their drive of only 50 or less GB. In these cases there is no reason to split the data as the image is very manageable just doing the whole thing.

One thing I would for sure do is store music and movies on a separate partition that is not backed up as part of the image. This data is generally easily replaceable. (I am not talking about home movies and family pictures here.)

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Jim, do you know that Acronis (any version) can be used to partition a drive to the size you want ?

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Not exactly. Actually, the way I do it

See, gotcha to reveal more important details.

I have dozens of partitions and about 15 terabytes of data, god knows how much actual storage capacity I have

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See, gotcha to reveal more important details.

I have dozens of partitions and about 15 terabytes of data, god knows how much actual storage capacity I have

Byron, why, when quoting a reply do you delete who your quoting ?

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Byron, why, when quoting a reply do you delete who your quoting ?

Byron combined the first part of bbearen’s and my (mercyh’s) post in that quote. I understand him to be saying that by his well placed questioncriticism of our methods he got us both to supply more information. (not a bad tactic, actually…. )

On the question on the quote from my post, it is just plain laziness (or ignorance). The only way I can get the post tag into the quote line is to quote the whole post and then delete out the part that I don’t want quoted. Is there an easier way?

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Byron combined the first part of bbearen’s and my (mercyh’s) post in that quote. I understand him to be saying that by his well placed questioncriticism of our methods he got us both to supply more information. (not a bad tactic, actually…. )

On the question on the quote from my post, it is just plain laziness (or ignorance). The only way I can get the post tag into the quote line is to quote the whole post and then delete out the part that I don’t want quoted. Is there an easier way?

Clicking MultiQuote or Quote button (in this case) at the bottom of every post shows this.

Now your free to delete the text you do not want. Just don’t remove

tags

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See, gotcha to reveal more important details.

Thanks for the nudge. Wasn’t intentionally trying to hide anything but don’t always elaborate as much as I should.

You and I have been involved in this discussion before………
If you have 15tb of DATA that needs to be backed up you still have a storage problem. My question is, If you are doing this by copying the files to another drive and you have all this data in separate partitions isn’t your backup storage requirement the same as the original use space? Now if you Image those same partitions, you take advantage of the image program’s compression and it’s ability to increment. You can also store complete versions of this data as a single file if you choose.

How is this less efficient than traditional backup methods?

Actually when you think about it, the program part of the C: partition is very small relative to your data size.
If you were to have all your eggs in one basket (everything on a single partition on a single drive) you would have say 15.05tb. The only part of the image of this drive that would be inefficient would be the .05tb (50gb) that is programs that never changes.

Now I understand that within the 15tb of data that you have, possibly 14tb of that is final product and never changes again. To image this along with your active data would be terribly inefficient and redundant. The whole secret to using image as your backup strategy is to separate data into partitions base on HOW OFTEN IT NEEDS TO BE BACKED UP. If this can be done correctly, IMO, image is the simplest, fastest, most space saving and takes the least tech knowledge of any backup technology…

Disclaimer: This is an OPINION and what works for me… If it is full of holes, shoot it down and I will not be offended. In fact, if it is bad logic you will be doing my customers a huge favor if you point out the flaws and get me to change my ways….

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No flaws that I can detect. The logic is sound and used by many of us. Cheers, Ted

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I concur with Ted.

The whole secret to using image as your backup strategy is to separate data into partitions base on HOW OFTEN IT NEEDS TO BE BACKED UP. If this can be done correctly, IMO, image is the simplest, fastest, most space saving and takes the least tech knowledge of any backup technology…

As I posted earlier, my 3-month-old “Program Files” drive image is current, and will remain current until I install a new app or uninstall an old one.

Another case where less is more.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Byron, why, when quoting a reply do you delete who your quoting ?

I’m not doing it right I guess, I’m not deleting anything, copy and pasting only and then wrapping quotes around it.

HOW OFTEN IT NEEDS TO BE BACKED UP. If this can be done correctly, IMO, image is the simplest, fastest, most space saving and takes the least tech knowledge of any backup technology…

This and the others are all excellent points, I think the distinction of reasoning behind partitioning was being lost before but no more! Also as far a single system client recommendations or service goes, spot on since that’s a bit of a different sort of relationship and both parties should have a very mutual understanding of the procedures involved and in general, the more uniform they are, the less likely to go awry.

I’m not as certain it takes the least tech knowledge. Acronis was just on the Computer America show this week and 2011 Home is much more “file and folder” friendly according to the rep, because they found it easier for the user to understand. I’m not so certain about that either! Unless maybe they are starting to employ automated data file backup such as that found in the ClickFree products, which I think are the bees knees for simplicity. You and I of course most likely think its super easy to mount an image and pull a file or folder out if needed but I can certainly see where that would possibly be daunting to the average user.

Now that we have differentiated partitioning, types of data (including OS and apps. in this case–0s and 1s–all data) and frequency of backup, I’d like to focus just on the active data, the stuff that needs to be backed up the most often. In a single system environment, I don’t think anything changes, its just a user choice between imaging and syncronization or incremental backup. Obviously day to day, imaging is going to take longer with any significant amount of data than syncronization but, so what, the computer just works a little longer, no sweat, and, imaging has the distinct advantage in that versioning is automatically built into the process, time scale is depending on frequency and how many image versions are kept before the oldest is tossed–something that might be very valuable to some users.
However, how many people or families these days are single system owners/users? Not to mention all the devices that are continuing to integrate and become data extenders, especially for media. This is where syncronization to central backup is unbeatable. Active data created or aquired wherever and available wherever to/from any system (after sycronization of course ). Its a concept that goes beyond convenience and straight to system redundancy. In other words, one system can just have any problem that takes it out for any time frame considered, and there is no interruption of activity or loss of data or time. Its a bit like RAID for systems. The only problem is that if a system ever does go down, there’s no rush to revive it, so it might sit there for a week or more before I even look at it!
With lesser amounts, and less dynamic datasets, one might be able to accomplish the same thing to and from the cloud but I for one will never be able to do that living where I do and it will always be slower so I don’t think that is a viable option-though its certainly good for off-site backup, which is also where syncronization is king, especially in the case of Carbonite which only allows the internal drive(s) of one system to be backed up per home user account.
Now one could certainly have a syncronization procedure in concert with imaging or image in pure addition to a ubiquitous syncronization scheme, but then we’re getting away from the simple, less is more concept. Also, unless there is no versioning procedure, so that all but the most recent image is cast into the dark reaches of Mordor, even with compression, it will take up significantly more space than syncronization will, even with the one system-independent dataset one gets with syncronization.

So those are my ruminations. They source heavily from being a long-time home network “admin,” so I would admit readily to that particular bias when it comes to viewing and interacting more with the “network,” rather than any system in particular, and I think the trend is toward more and more multi-system home networks and, the desire to have one’s data available on any system of choice at any time; the When I want it, Where I want it, How I want it modis operendi.

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Thanks for the thread as this is one of my concerns. I have consistently advocated separating user data and the operating system in separate partitions and do so when ever I am able on systems that I build, repair or set-up for others. I note that many Linux distributions use this strategy. When setting up a new Win7 system I usually allow about 60BG for the OS partition and divide the remaining space as required. Having a separate Temp partition that is excluded for backups can reduce backup space requirements.

Once the partition structure is setup and the OS (re)installed I setup user and content named folders in the data partition(s) eg “Photos” “Movies” “Music”, “Programs” etc. Recorded TV, where applicable, gets its own partition. Lincoln Spector’s PC World article is a simple solution which I will start using, prior to this post I have tended to do this for each user individually. For each logon I install the “User’s Files” icon to the desktop via the “Personalise” desktop right-mouse click menu item, selecting “Change desktop icons”. Clicking on the User named document icon accesses the folders for “Contacts”, “Desktop”, “Downloads”, “Favourites”, “My Documents”, “My Music” etc. Right-mouse clicking each folder and selecting the “Location” tab allows us to move each folder and its contents to the chosen location. The “Tracing” folder cannot be moved and if desired the “Saved Games” and “Searches” folder locations can be omitted from the process. This sounds laborious and is somewhat but once you get into the rhythm is is fairly straight forward. Many users dont want individual logons, just a single system for all. The security model sucks but only if a bad guy gets physical access to the machine, in which case, if they know what they are doing and have enough time, you are done anyway.

For a new install there will be no content to move apart from sample files and for a reinstall I will have already copied the users previous content into the relevant new locations on the data partition(s). One advantage of moving the users folder locations before installing all the users applications is that programs such as iTunes will then naturally point to the correct location in the “My Music” folder library etc without risk of breaking links by moving data locations later. Convincing Outlook to look somewhere else for its data file is fairly simple but dont let it download any mail first or you will have to fiddle around to get the new mail items back with your old mail file in your data partition. For a new install that is still a problem Outlook does not like moving its newly installed mail file. You can copy the new .pst file to the data partition folder you have set up and point Outlook to that file but it wont accept attempts to move the original .pst, or at least I have not come accross an easy method.

It is quite a pain trying to retrieve all a user’s data from a crashed Windows box when bits and pieces are scattered through a monolithic system partition: address books here, mail there, irreplacable user data in an application folder somewhere else, let alone the documents and media files. BTW I usually find a live CD/DVD of Ubuntu handy or failing that pull the hard drive and plug it into a spare box. I prefer the former as it minimises the risk of contaminating the rescue box with some plague or other. I push the data onto a handy USB hard disk. After that the drive can be reformatted and reinstalled with data restored. As required the original drive can be imaged first so it can be looked at later if anything precious has been over looked. It would be so much easier to have all user data in one place from the beginning.

My wish for the next Windows operating system is that it allows setting up user data on a separate partition at install. Windows Server products including Windows Home Server do this out of the box without user interaction. WHS 1 SP3 uses only 20GB for the OS partition although the WHS 2 beta (“Vail”) I think uses 60GB.

Now to backups. I use a self-built Windows Home Server box to backup the three laptops (including a MacBook Pro via Time Machine) and 5 PCs in the house. WHS does daily backups of anything that is still on in the middle of the night, otherwise I trigger a manual backup every week or two. The backups include OS and data partitions but exclude any Temp partitions and only clusters that have changed since the last backup are copied. I can (and have) then restore anything from whole machines, to selected partitions via a networked CD/DVD live disk or if needed files or folders from particular dates by a simple drag and drop process. I have been able to restore files that had been accidentally deleted in minutes and have recovered corrupted systems to full working condition in as little as 30 to 40 minutes.

The backups of all the data and OS partitions of those 8 computers is ‘only’ 353GB currently (and a 1TB hard drive is fairly cheap). WHS also serves copies of all my users media and document files (as distinct from the backups images) which are automatically duplicated across the servers disks and onto a removable drive for multiple redunancy. Most users of this forum would have bits and pieces of hardware lying around with which to build a simple server like this as I did. Of course Linux solutions are also possible and Linux server OS’s have the advantage of being free but probably require a bit more setting up.

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Whew… Seems I stirred up a lot of interest with this thread. There is a lot to think about in here. I have tried some things and some worked well and some didn’t.

First of all, I shrank my OS partition to 50GB. That now contains win 7 Home Premium 64, the program files, and a skeleton of c:users. C:users contains all of the users except my main one “Jim”. I have tried to strip out as much of JIm as I could, including sub folders of “appdata”. It appears that idea did not go well. All sorts of strange things are happening now. For example, Google Chrome won’t install. Also, installations continue to put stuff in c:usersjimappdata. so If I were to back up the data partition and application partition separately, I would never be sure that I wouldn’t be getting things out of sync. for example, I back up the os and the data partitions today. Then I use the machine for a week, installing no new applications but using applications, some of which update appdata as I use them. Then, I backup the data partition again a week later. Then I have a failure of the data partition in some way where I need to recover the entire partition. I do that. However, I have not “synchronized” with the appdata data on my os drive. I see this as an exposure.. That means I need to back up every partition at the same time, every time.

I am about to throw up my hands and reinstall, only moving the elements of c:usersjim that seem easy to move, like videos, pictures, documents etc.. Hopefully favorites too. It looks like the backup process is either “back it all up ” at the same time or back up selected elements as needed. If I take a whole backup, then if I take a system failure like a virus, I need to fall back to the WHOLE backup. Hopefully I have taken these huge backups frequently. The other approach seems to be to try to back up important data separately, somehow identifying what to back up and what not to. My guess is that when I rebuild my os partition,I will probably find something i forgot to back up, like a favorites file. or my wallpaper files or my outlook rules or the like. No wonder most people don’t actually have a good backup plan…

Thank you all for your input on this…

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I am about to throw up my hands and reinstall, only moving the elements of c:usersjim that seem easy to move, like videos, pictures, documents etc.. Hopefully favorites too. It looks like the backup process is either “back it all up ” at the same time or back up selected elements as needed. If I take a whole backup, then if I take a system failure like a virus, I need to fall back to the WHOLE backup. Hopefully I have taken these huge backups frequently. The other approach seems to be to try to back up important data separately, somehow identifying what to back up and what not to. My guess is that when I rebuild my os partition,I will probably find something i forgot to back up, like a favorites file. or my wallpaper files or my outlook rules or the like. No wonder most people don’t actually have a good backup plan…

Thank you all for your input on this…

This is all the stuff I moved, and nothing has caused any problems to date after several months:

The red box shows my D Drive with all the associated folder I have movedd. The blue box shows the portion of the appdata I moved without problems.

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Whew… Seems I stirred up a lot of interest with this thread. There is a lot to think about in here. I have tried some things and some worked well and some didn’t.

No wonder most people don’t actually have a good backup plan…

Thank you all for your input on this…

A simplified backup plan can be made to work, and no, not everything has to be backed up every time.

When the system is correctly partitioned and app preferences have been correctly set so that application product files go to the correct user’s data folder, there is no need to sync anything; everything is where it should be by default.

Once it is done, it’s done. There’s no need for further machinations. The only thing left to do is just use it.

Here is how this particular machine has been setup since March. The only BSOD’s I’ve had were due to a failing graphics card, since replaced. I have no hangs, freeze-ups or other difficulties. It just works…

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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The other approach seems to be to try to back up important data separately, somehow identifying what to back up and what not to. My guess is that when I rebuild my os partition,I will probably find something i forgot to back up, like a favorites file. or my wallpaper files or my outlook rules or the like.

This is a super easy route to go IF you get a product like those found at ClickFree. All data, all automated, all the time. Its almost a no-brainer and you can add a certain filetype if Clickfree happens to not include it (for instance if the outlook rules file was an odd duck).

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Thank you all for your thorough responses. I am encouraged to try again. This time I will leave appdata alone. except for “roaming”.

I have a few observations and questions though.
1) Both Ted and Bbearren seem to have moved the pagefile to its own drive. Is that wise? I know it gets that file out of the system image, so that is a reason to do it. Is there a performance penalty? Is the pagefile on a different physical drive from the operating system? Why didn’t you move the hibernation file?

2) Bbearren, How did you manage to move the entire Users folder to its own hard drive?

3) Why did you move the programs to its own drive? Because of the registry, I would think that you couldn’t backup or restore C: or E: without the other.

Well I am off to reinstall win 7 on my new machine yet again.. I will start by following Ted’s model, if I can. Then I will probably get me a copy of Acronis backup and recovery and get started using the machine. Thanks again for all your help, information and interest.

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1) Both Ted and Bbearren seem to have moved the pagefile to its own drive. Is that wise? I know it gets that file out of the system image, so that is a reason to do it. Is there a performance penalty? Is the pagefile on a different physical drive from the operating system? Why didn’t you move the hibernation file?

True enough, there is no need for the pagefile to be in a system image. Also, if the pagefile is on its own dedicated partition (meaning no other files are stored there, only the pagefile) and fixed in size, according to Microsoft it will never fragment. That in itself is a slight performance gain. If that dedicated partition for the pagefile is also on a physical hard drive that is not the system drive, that is also a slight performance boost, as both drives can be accessed simultaneously.

The Hibernation file is not used during normal operations, only when the system goes into hibernation. There is no real performance gain to be had by moving it. (Of course, this is a desktop, and I don’t use hibernation on it, so there is no hibernation file.) On my laptop, before I make an image of the OS partition, I disable hibernation and delete the file to make the image smaller. If I should need to restore the image, I would then re-enable hibernation, which would recreate hiberfil.sys.

2) Bbearren, How did you manage to move the entire Users folder to its own hard drive?

Have a look at http://www.bbearren….e/set7free.html

3) Why did you move the programs to its own drive? Because of the registry, I would think that you couldn’t backup or restore C: or E: without the other.

Together with moving the Program Files folder to a separate drive, I also have all my applications’ preferences set to save their product files to the appropriate user’s folder. The files in the Program Files folder change very little other than the occaissional log file. The only time it really needs to be imaged is when a new application is installed, or an old application is uninstalled or updated.

The registry simply points to the applications and their associated files. Those pointers don’t change except for new installs/updates/uninstalls.

Whenever the drive holding the Program Files folder is imaged (install/update/uninstall), the system drive and the users drive need to be imaged as well just as a matter of good practices.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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I’m getting an external hard drive (WD 2 TB} to backup laptop with Win7 Home Premium. Any comments on setting up the external HD? Anything special needed to do or useful? Been using DVD discs and find that I’m charmed with todays report on backup programs by Lincoln Spector as well as the comments in this thread. Want to get the external hard drive set up a best way and get a current overdue image made. Thanks to all.

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I’m getting an external hard drive (WD 2 TB} to backup laptop with Win7 Home Premium. Any comments on setting up the external HD? Anything special needed to do or useful? Been using DVD discs and find that I’m charmed with todays report on backup programs by Lincoln Spector as well as the comments in this thread. Want to get the external hard drive set up a best way and get a current overdue image made. Thanks to all.

Which drive are you getting? some of the WD drives have software imbedded in the firmware that you have to hide to make the drive act just like any other drive. If you find that WD wants to manage your backup and also shows up as another CD drive, you will want to change the settings to hide this software so you can use the drive as a normal hard drive for image backups…..

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Which drive are you getting? some of the WD drives have software imbedded in the firmware that you have to hide to make the drive act just like any other drive. If you find that WD wants to manage your backup and also shows up as another CD drive, you will want to change the settings to hide this software so you can use the drive as a normal hard drive for image backups…..

Don’t expect any unusual features – just a simple large enough external hard drive. One never knows for sure however. It is described as:

Western Digital 2TB WD Elements USB 2.0 External Hard Drive
Mfr: Western Digital
Item#: 10414928
Mfg. Part #: WDBAAU0020HBK-NESN

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I had a difficult time getting the PC to see the first WD ext USB HD I got, and finally returned it and bought a Seagate. Best move I ever made. The only thing I did to prepare the ext HD was check to ensure it was formated as NTFS. Nothing more.

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When I got my Seagate FreeAgent the first thing I did was to use BootItNG to delete and repartition as a single NTFS partition.

No backup software left, just an external hard drive that I can use the way I want to.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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When I got my Seagate FreeAgent the first thing I did was to use BootItNG to delete and repartition as a single NTFS partition.

No backup software left, just an external hard drive that I can use the way I want to.

Bbearren,

This stuff that is on the WD drives is actually in firmware instead of on the drive itself. I could describe my idea of the intelligence of the developers of this but it would not be good for the forum……

(they do have a way to hide it but you can never actually remove it.)

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Bbearren,

This stuff that is on the WD drives is actually in firmware instead of on the drive itself. I could describe my idea of the intelligence of the developers of this but it would not be good for the forum……

(they do have a way to hide it but you can never actually remove it.)

This is a puzzling statement. Please flush it out a bit more. Bbearren indicated he cleaned the drive of this ‘program stuff by delete and repartition. You indicate it is not on the drive but is rather firmware and not subject to removal. Does this ‘program stuff’ remain active after a delete and repartition action? Please try and explain this to me. Thanks.

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That drive should be what you expect. A single large drive that shows up with a single drive letter. I have used several My Book Essentials and the first one I purchased took me by surprise when it setup its own backup software (that of course I didn’t like) and would not let me “see” the drive normally. Once I figured out how to hide the built in “junk” it worked great.

I would point you to possibly the two most popular image backup programs on this forum:

Macrium Reflect (there is a free version for home use)

And

Acronis True Image

Windows backup with a saved system image may be another option for you although I am not sure what Home Premium has built in….

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Windows backup with a saved system image may be another option for you although I am not sure what Home Premium has built in….

I’m pretty sure that Home Premium has pretty much the same backup/imaging as higher versions but the main difference is you cannot backup to a network share.

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Ray,

the model of drive that you are getting does not have this “feature”. You will not need to worry about it.

The My Book series of drives from WD has a program built into the Firmware of the enclosure that creates a virtual CD drive. It also includes a WD backup program (that I consider worthless). You can hide the virtual CD from a machine by installing WD’s configuration software and configuring the drive but you cannot actually uninstall the software as it is not on the drive itself, it is instead part of the enclosure.

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