Imaging a hard drive again (and again)

Topic

New Reply

Hi,

I say ‘again’ because I am still fighting this dragon.

And I’m not too proud to admit it — now; (—there just comes a time …. ).

I have been trying for many years now — starting with very early Acronis True Images(versions 2/3, 4, 8, 10 ? — I forgot). I know I bought several though the years. None worked for me at all.

Recently I made more determined, valiant tries again; this time trying Easeus and Macrium etc. Even bought one (!) – Partition Master Pro; but they say (in their support forum) I bought the ‘wrong’ program, so I didn’t even try it.

I tried Easeus ToDo Backup 4.5. It did something with back up but, with my system of 17 GB, the resultant ‘backup’ is only 1.9 GB — that can’t be bigger enough. (I didn’t try to check it tho.) And no way to send it, directly, to a USB external HD.)

And Easeus, on system (imaging?), offers only limited ‘off system’ — no USB external HD etc..

I don’t want images stored on my HD (seems, to me, not smart), i want them stored ‘off system’ — USB SSD, external HD, even DVD, or even bootable CD.

With Macrium (new v5.0/free), they apparently limit imaging to only CD/DVD.

So, again, I failed to produce a image (that I can use/test).

It seems, of late, the ‘free’ programs are being phased into ‘trials’ — a least in Easeus.

I realize , with my long history of unsuccessful attempts, that I may have muddied the waters. Meaning: maybe my thinking is somewhat ‘tainted’.

In that case, any ‘straightening out’ of my thinking, would be appreciated.

Bottom line — :

All I want to do, is image my HDs (both working and ‘clean’ (and newly setup) systems. I have quite a number of systems, desktops and laptops. And test the resulting images for being valid. Some bootable CD capability.

I only have limited interest in automatic file backup. (I do it, of course, but using my own methods.)

Just so readers know, in spite of my earlier ramblingness, I am really a ‘computer guy’; in fact, been around computers since they made with discreet transistors — and that is really old. So it is OK to ‘talk turkey’ to me.

It’s just that the whole “imaging” arena, as presented to me though the years, leaves me ‘in the dust’. And I’m trying to catch up.

Sorry about overly long post, but it was festering for a long time.

WillMS

Reply | Quote

Replies

I don’t use either Macrium or EaseUS, but I am sure both support full images on external drives. They would be of little use if they didn’t.

Reply | Quote

WilMS,

What Windows version are you using? Always helpeful for us to know this.

Macrium Reflect Free does support Imaging to a USB hard disk as I have done it.

Have you tried with either Macrium or Acronis creating the Rescue disks {in the case of Macrium I recommend the Windows PE version} then booting from that disk and creating your images w/o Windows running from your C: drive?
I use this method exclusively and have never had a problem. I also recommend that you use the Verify Image option which both of these programs support. :cheers:

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

Reply | Quote

It’s just that the whole “imaging” arena, as presented to me though the years, leaves me ‘in the dust’. And I’m trying to catch up.

WillMS,
Hello… Just want to add my 2¢ …. I have used, or at least tried the programs that you have mentioned … I now use Acronis 2010 V7046, and Macrium Reflect V-5-4620 Both have the Recovery Disk option, and can even do more than you want. …Bottom line is that they work and have done hundreds of full system Images on XP, Vista , and “7” ( 32 and 64 bit mix)..Also scores of recoveries with each. So don’t give up ..there are many at the lounge that can help you get past the “Dragon”. Regarding the mix ..I would stick with Macrium Reflect Free ( any of the version 5’s ) The older Acronis offerings are “Way Slow” in comparison. :cheers: Regards Fred

PS: Here is a link for Macrium Reflect Free download and install… Play around with it, and get familiar with the program …post back with any questions First Mission …Burn the “WAIK” version of the recovery disk, and make sure your BIOS is set to boot from a CDDVD (First in Que) Will test it later…Once your “Up to Speed” with the program

Reply | Quote

Here is a step-by-step tutorial for creating a Macrium Reflect image.
Here are two more articles on how to create bootable rescue media.

Taking the time to read the articles in their entirety prior to doing anything is the only straightening out you need.

A disk image is
A Partition is

Reply | Quote

With Macrium (new v5.0/free), they apparently limit imaging to only CD/DVD.

Not true, works fine for me with a USB external drive. In the Macrium program it will only allow for CD/DVD rescue disk creation, but as my
earlier links allude to, there are easy and workable ways around that aspect of rescue media creation.

I tried Easeus ToDo Backup 4.5. It did something with back up but, with my system of 17 GB, the resultant ‘backup’ is only 1.9 GB — that can’t be bigger enough. (I didn’t try to check it tho.) And no way to send it, directly, to a USB external HD.)

It’s more likely you selected a non image type of backup. Do try to check it out and confirm this.
I think all you really need to do is spend more time looking at and reading the documentation of any particular product you’ve chosen.
Go for step by step instructions with actual screen shots of the process.

Reply | Quote

Not that it’s needed, but I can confirm all that Clint and Fred et al have said about Macrium. I take images on my hard drive and also on an external drive. I have also recovered multiple times from both.
Read, understand, and then go slay the “dragon.”

Dick
PS,
Also, once you’ve created the image where you want it, BE SURE to test that you can use it to recover.

Reply | Quote

Hi all,

Wow, I’m simply overwhelmed — with all the support suggestions and information.

I’m not wise about the forum’s protocol (yet), so i’ll try this way to respond (and thank the members along the way). —- Like does one answer using of bunch individual posts, or is it better to group several similar subjects together (lessen the number of posts)?

I’m using primarily XP Pro systems, although Windows 7 is rearing its head a bit. I should have mentioned this in my original post. So I used the XP ‘subcategory’ (if it is a category at all) to post.

Thanks to : [verifying some things are doable]
ruirib
RetiredGeek
Dick-Y
mart44 [not using Windows 7, but will in the future]

With special thanks: [for the several links, and follow up]
Clint
Just Plain Fred [did get Macrium free, playing with it]

After I spend some more time looking into various referrals, I’ll single out any responders for any special follow up (after I learn to respond and quote back correctly).

Also, I’ll look at other message threads, for ‘how the others do it’.

Thanks again to all.

Will

Reply | Quote

I use Easeus ToDo Backup to back up to my external USB hard drive. It works fine. Just plug in the external hard drive and wait for Windows to recognise it before starting Easeus, you will then be able to navigate to it as a destination in Easeus.

I think the backup size is around 2/3 of the source partition size. The program has a browse backup feature, so you can check what was backed up after you finish.

Asus N53SM & N53SN 64-bit laptops (Win7 Pro & Win10 Pro 64-bit multiboots), venerable HP Pavilion t760 32-bit desktop (XP & Win7 Pro multiboot), Oracle VirtualBox VM's: XP & Win7 32-bit, XP Mode, aged Samsung Galaxy S4, Samsung Galaxy Tab A 2019s (8" & 10.1"), Blu-ray burners, digital cameras, ext. HDDs (latest 5TB!), AnyDVD, Easeus ToDo Backup Home, Waterfox, more. Me: Aussie card-carrying Windows geek.

Reply | Quote

Hi,
I tried Easeus ToDo Backup 4.5. It did something with back up but, with my system of 17 GB, the resultant ‘backup’ is only 1.9 GB — that can’t be bigger enough. (I didn’t try to check it tho.)
WillMS

Very bad mistake if you have 8 GB of Pagefile.sys and 8 GB of Hiberfil.sys as part of your 17 GB system, because an image excludes those two files.

Reply | Quote

Hi WillMS, Just a couple of thoughts- maybe 3.. mostly on ToDo Backup
a. I find that backing up 90Gb of installed programs + Windows gives an image of some 30+Gb.
b. As alan.b says, pagefile.sys * hiberfil.sys should be excluded.
c. Be sure you are selecting disk/partition backup as ToDo first offers File backup. (v4.5’s GUI is much better than v4’s which I skipped, as v3.5 was much clearer).
d. You can mount the image file and see what’s in it. Have a look.. (ToDo, Home, Tools…)
e. You can also verify your image file.
f. Note that from v4, ToDo introduced a (silly- in my opinion) prompt for the default path to store backups. So you may have to specify the USB disk path to save the backup to a (plugged in!) USB disk.
g. Unlike Acronis TI, ToDo Backup does not scan for an external disk. An incremental backup, e.g. requires the external disk to be allocated the SAME drive letter as when the initial image was created. To do that, I support ToDo with a 3rd party program that assigns the drive letter. Hmm.

Reply | Quote

IMAGE BACKUP OF OS PARTITION: Use PE Boot CD with OS not Booted.

Useing XP, I have had good results with WinPE boot CDs from Paragon and O&O:
doing an image backups of a “clean install” after activation, updates, and drivers.
LinuxPE should also work…have not tried.

In the PE CD boot system mode the OS system partition is not booted (locked).
The image of the “clean install” of XP (with update uninstallers deleted and no page-file)
can be saved to another partition on the same HDD or to a DVD.
Then use the SAME PE boot CD to format and restort or migrate the OS image.
This method has worked for a “wiped” HDD with new MBR and a new C:OS partition.
den
*********************************************************************

Reply | Quote

Ok, I’m going to toss a cat in the middle of this dog show.

Regardless of what program you use (I’ll get to my own in a moment) there are some basic rules of making backups, some of which I learned many years ago while being a mainframe operator.

You must back up enough information so that the backup can be used to boot up your system if your main hard drive crashes and has to be replaced with a brand new drive.
Your Backup/Restore program MUST NOT be on your main drive….it MUST be on some kind of bootable media. I have my own backup program on Floppy Disk, Flash Drive and CD. (and several copies, so if one should get damaged, I have backup copies of my backup program).

Ok, one other vital step, clean out all the junk on your hard drive before you start a backup. Some backup programs will eliminate your Pagefile by default.
But, there can be literally thousands of temp files, temporary internet files, .bak and .bac files as well as logs that are kept by AV and AS software, etc., that can easily add up to Gigabytes of just plain JUNK. With a very thorough cleanup, I eliminate over six gig’s of junk from my own backups. With Win-8, it gets much worse!
(it’s a jungle in there, or should I spell that “Jumble”?)

Acronis True Image has been available for free, for years. It used to come on every MaxBlast disk that came with new Maxtor hard drives. It was also available from Seagate in their “Seatools” package that could be downloaded from their website.

Install ATI and then use it to make the “Recovery CD” and then you can un-install it from the hard drive, to save space. Doing all your backups from a Boot Disk, that totally takes Windows out of the equation, is by far the smartest and safest way to to backups. I did this with ATI when Vista was still the current OS and I was just testing Win-7. It worked just fine, to make Images of the C: drive and store them on an external HD.
* When you do your backups from a Boot Disk, you can even back up your HD when Windows won’t boot it, for data preservation.

I just couldn’t warm up to the UI so never made that my permanent Backup program. Also it didn’t allow me to select the amount of compression of the files going into the backup. Bottom line…. It did work 100%, to backup one HD and then restore to another HD. (that’s a must!)

My own Backup program that I’ve used since it’s inception in 1997, is “Ghost”. I’m currently using “Ghost 11.5” which will back up every OS from ’98 to Win-8, seamlessly. It’s a DOS program and runs great from a DOS Boot Disk.
But, you can’t buy it, and Symantec denies that they ever wrote it or marketed it. :rolleyes:
They bought Ghost in 1998 from the originators in New Zealand.

I boot up my system with my DOS Ghost disk and do my backups from there. While in DOS I can run a sequence of batch files that delete all the junk, including the Pagefile and old Restore Points, from the C: drive. On my XP drive, which is still in FAT-32 format, I can do all my cleanup in DOS.
However, with any NTFS formatted drive, like Win7 or Win8, I run a little app in Dos called NTFS4DOS which opens up NTFS for access in DOS and then I just go ahead and do my cleanup before actually running Ghost to do my backup.
It’s just so slick, so easy and so very Professional.

After a backup, I do an immediate “Check” of the backup file(s) to make sure they are restore’able. Then I take one more step to validate that backup file….I do a Restore. That rewrites my entire C: drive (data area) and re-organizes the files, with no space between them and of course….NO FRAGMENTATION. I call it the “World’s best Defrag”.
It’s how I used to defrag the mainframe I ran for the county, years ago.

Transistors? How about Vacc. Tubes? Been there, done all that. Got the B+ burns on my fingers to prove it. :rolleyes:
But once hard drives were invented, backups have not changed much.
The theory and process are pretty much the same…only the backup media has really changed.

I even have a 16 gig Flash Drive mounted permanently on my main PC, for daily data-file backups.
Using XCOPY, in a batch file, with the proper switches, the backup takes only a few seconds, backing up only files that are new, or ones that have been changed, since the last backup.
Whole drive backups are done weekly (not weakly :rolleyes:) with Ghost 11.5. To: an Internal Backup drive, external USB drive or even to DVD’s.

Doing whole drive backups can seem like a very daunting topic, but once you nail down the basics, it gets pretty simple.

I should copy-write this, “The only bad backup is the one you decided NOT to make”. *

* I will never argue with anyone who has found a backup program that works for them. The important thing is to DO YOUR BACKUPS, at least weekly, not what program you use.

Cheers Mates!
The Doctor

PS: There is nothing any more disheartening to a Computer Tech, than going to someone’s home or office on a service call, to find out that the hard drive has totally CRASHED and there are NO backups. That really sux!

Reply | Quote

Thanks to the OP for asking this question as I have had similar experiences over the years. I have looked at various times at “imaging” programs and as far as I can tell they fail two of my criteria.
I want to image a hard drive. I don’t care if it has multiple partitions, although none of mine do, I want an image of whats there, excluding the unused space of course. I do not have the hidden partition on my C drive.
Second, I want to be able to restore the image to a smaller drive.

The issue with the first criteria may be my inability to decipher the documentation, but the second is because none if the software that I looked at allows putting the image to a smaller drive. I would like to do this so I can try an SSD as my boot drive. The second reason is because my C drive is currently a terabyte drive and I am using less than 200 GB of it. I would like to turn it into a data disk and put the OS on a smaller drive.

I’m using Win 7 Pro X64 and have a bag full of smaller drives to experiment with. Also, most of my data is stored on the D drive.

Reply | Quote

I have heard mediocre things about Norton Ghost, but I have been using it since V.12 (Now at 16) on both XP and 7 and it has saved my tail many, many times. It even lets you restore individual files out of the system back up and can be set to automatically back up. Works great for me.

Reply | Quote

Dgwx,
Send me a bus ticket and I’ll come out there and show you how to do all that. Eh? (I do love TDY or Road Trips)

The program I use, “Ghost 11.5” can do all that. It can do a Partition to Image, or a Partition to Partition, or a Disk to Image, or a disk to disk (clone)

In any case it can work well with disks of different sizes, as long as the data from one will fit on the other. NO Problemo!

In the normal course of events, (my weekly backup) I only use the “Partition to Image” option, with FAST Compression.
The backup starts with the MBR (boot Sector) and copies the entire C: drive, file by file. (NOT the Pagefile or empty spaces)
It’s a file copier, not a bit-copier, so it perfectly maintains file integrity. The files go into the backup just as they are copied from the HD, just like you would copy a file from your HD to a Flash Drive, for instance. I can pick either NO Compression, FAST Compression or HIGH Compression, ideal for backing up to DVD’s.

The size of data in the backup file is all that’s really important, not the size of the drive it’s being restored to.
So you could back up 200 gigs of data, from a 1TB drive and restore that data to a 500 gig HD, with no problem.

Every decent backup program should work that way, but from what I’ve read on these forums, that’s not always the case.

Ghost will even let me clone a 1TB drive to a 500 gig drive, as long as the data will fit.
I think that’s similar to what you were talking about. Eh?
In fact, that’s exactly what I did, when I got my new 1TB drive. I had two partitions on my old 500 gig drive and Ghost portioned out the space on the 1TB drive perfectly. (“I love it when a plan comes together”)

Good Luck!
The Doctor

Reply | Quote

Yeah DW, thats what i want. I have an NG 9.01 CD, is that likely to work with Win7 and would it do what I want? (I have all kinds of stuff laying around here, i need to index it someday) Can it be run off the CD or would I have to install it? I seem to remember that NG puts some kind of “I was here” file on the hard drive and its generally a PIB to get rid of.

I guess, since I am assured that Ghost will do what I want, that I should just buy the latest version and get on with it. I doubt I can find a copy of 11.5.

Reply | Quote

I guess, since I am assured that Ghost will do what I want, that I should just buy the latest version and get on with it. I doubt I can find a copy of 11.5.

You could do that, or you could use Seagate’s free (Acronis-True-Image-based) DiscWizard software that Dr. Who mentioned previously. It’s what I usually use, because I’ve always found it reliable.

1. It may be available as part of ‘Sea Tools’, but it’s certainly available separately as DiscWizard.

2. It is intended to be used only on systems in which at least one Seagate or Maxtor drive is present, but there’s a ‘technical override’ that allows it to be used on any system (this information was originally provided by a Seagate tech, but since I’m not sure it would be acceptable to post it here you can Google around for it – I haven’t tried it on the latest version of DiscWizard, but it still worked on the previous one and it avoids the annoyance of having to plug in a USB-connected Seagate/Maxtor drive if one is not already present).

3. It does provide multiple options for compression and its bootable ‘Recovery CD’ supports most functions (not just recovery).

4. It does support whole-disk as well as individual-partition backup and recovery. Individual partitions can be restored to smaller sizes than they originally contained as long as their file systems are those which DiscWizard understands (obviously, if it doesn’t understand the internals of the file system it can’t very well figure out how to modify them to fit into smaller spaces).

5. It does support recovery to a smaller disk (as long as all the backed-up data will fit, of course). With a multi-partition disk this may require restoring partitions one-by-one (which you can do from a full-disk backup), in order to specify exactly how the smaller total space should be allocated.

I haven’t fooled around enough with other imaging programs to talk about their features and reliability authoritatively, but I suspect you’ll find that some have the features you’re looking for as well.

Reply | Quote

Might as well go for the gold, does NG also do backups? Like full or differential ones and lets me select the folders that I want to backup?

Reply | Quote

I tried DiscWizard the last time I wanted to image a hard drive, about a year or so ago. Besides the problem with the drives not being Seagate (I didn’t know about a technical override, found that info), it would not image a larger drive to a smaller one. It lets you go through the whole setup to do the clone, then when you get to the point where you tell the program to do it, DiscWizard comes back and tells you that the version you have will not do this operation. I also tried the version from the Acronis web site, free or time limited, I forget which, and it does the same thing. That put Acronis near the bottom of my list of software product I might ever pay to use. I did not find this behavior documented anywhere.
Maybe the latest version of DiscWizard will clone to a smaller disk, but if you haven’t actually tried it I would not bet on it. I will try it again when I get the time.

Reply | Quote

Maybe the latest version of DiscWizard will clone to a smaller disk, but if you haven’t actually tried it I would not bet on it. I will try it again when I get the time.

dgwx,
Hello…. You should try one of the new free versions (5) of Macrium Reflect:cheers: Regards Fred

PS: Feature comparison Here

Reply | Quote

I tried DiscWizard the last time I wanted to image a hard drive, about a year or so ago. Besides the problem with the drives not being Seagate (I didn’t know about a technical override, found that info), it would not image a larger drive to a smaller one. It lets you go through the whole setup to do the clone…

‘Cloning’ and ‘imaging’ are not the same thing. When you said in your earlier post (the one to which I responded),

Second, I want to be able to restore the image to a smaller drive.

you were definitely talking about imaging, not cloning.

DiscWizard, as I described, will allow you to take a full-disk image and then restore it to a smaller drive – and since I’ve used it to restore individual partition images to smaller targets I’m reasonably confident of that assertion (since the full-disk image can be restored partition-by-partition if need be). When the DiscWizard documentation for the two versions (10 and 11) prior to the current one (13) discusses cloning it talks ONLY about cloning to a drive the same size or larger (the v11 documentation makes this quite clear, though it’s easier to miss in v10’s).

Reply | Quote

Bill,
I was using cloning and imaging interchangeably and yes, an image is what I wanted. Perhaps i was not making the right choices in the application when I last tried to use DiscWizard.

Reply | Quote

I have been a very careful back-up person, remember backing up to casettes of tape on a PC? But I’ve never done an image. Last week I figured I would use the Win7 Pro Backup + image and see how it works. That has taken me on a trip down Alice’s rabbit hole!
I tried to back up to a clean, formatted 2T external drive. After 10 hours (32 bit machine) or so I got a jolt — Win7 couldn’t complete the backup + image. I found error 0x81000033. Horribly written, probably in sub-continent English, saying that there isn’t enough space on a drive. Hmm. Maybe. So I did a custom job with few files to backup plus the image. Same outcome. And tons of space left on the external drive. Got on the internet and discovered the “drive” is in fact a reserved system partition and I am maybe 35 MB short to complete.
What to do? Got the files to show and mapped the partition to a drive letter. I chopped 50 MB off the primary, boot, partition. But I have been unable to extend the reserved drive/partition to include the extra 50 MB.
Ideas? Should I give up on Win7 Images?

Reply | Quote

I’m getting my head around this issue in pretty much the same terms. Since posting I have continued to search the ‘net and I am amazed at the number of others who have fetched up on this issue. 0x33000081 is a four letter word, or equivalent. In my backup programs I have always looked for “bullet proof” — otherwise why back up? It is beginning to look like MS has foisted an iffy proposition on us. Sad. Or maybe I was smart to put off imaging?

Reply | Quote

You are not smart putting off Imaging. I agree that Win 7 Backup and Restore is a very basic Imaging tool, and can be beaten soundly by any number of 3rd party apps. I realize there are those that do not agree with this point, but the 3rd party apps are just better at Imaging IMHO. I happen to use Acronis True Image Home, both v2010 and v2011. Both work very well for me. I create new Images at least once per month, or more often whenever I make changes to my system. I like to keep my Images as Up To Date as possible.

There are many 3rd party apps, Acronis and Macrium Reflect being the 2 most often discussed here. EaseUS ToDo v4, Ghost and ImgBurn are others discussed herein. All these apps can beat the pants off the Win 7 app IMHO.

Reply | Quote

All I want to do, is image my HDs (both working and ‘clean’ (and newly setup) systems. I have quite a number of systems, desktops and laptops. And test the resulting images for being valid. Some bootable CD capability.

Welcome to this forum’s #1 religious discussion–or maybe that’s drive partitioning. Whatever…

Concur with what’s been said about saving backup images to a separate physical disk (either HDD–my pref–flash drive or DVD). After that, imaging in XP has always been a lot of “fun”–I used Acronis TIH for years on my old XP system, and while I never found anything I liked more, I really didn’t care for its arcane approach to data backup.

If you really care about data security and have a sufficiently-powerful system (or the $$ to upgrade to one), I’d highly recommend moving on to Windows 7–the integral data security structure is really that much better (more on that later).

If you’ve decided to stick with XP, you don’t need to read the rest of this post–it’s all about imaging in Windows 7.

FYI to all: The Windows 7 Recovery Disk contains the utilities needed to restore a disk image created by Windows’ imaging utility. You did create a Recovery Disk, didn’t you?

Once you’ve made the move, Windows 7’s own imaging capability meets all the requirements stated by DrWho. Whether you use it or any third-party utility comes down to a matter of personal preference for the way the utility works (meaning, its user interface and process flow).

That said, some of our compatriots have made it clear in plenty of past threads that they can find things to hate about Windows’ imaging utility, usually about how slow it is compared to some other favorite tool. If you’re like me, though, you’re only wanting to occasionally make a master system image (not my data, which is on a separate partition), usually after some major software changes. IMO, I don’t care if a third-party utility is 15% faster, if I’m making images only 2-3 times a year. If you’re using imaging for your data (monthly, weekly, or even daily) backups, you might well feel differently.

I have been living with “just Microsoft” for my system backups for about two years now–for me, it works and eliminates some of the complications I’ve experienced in the past with Acronis TIH. I actually have a copy of Acronis TIH 2010 sitting on my desk that I bought in case I ever decided to change my mind, but have had no reason to install it.

My experience with Windows 7 imaging vs TIH is that Win7 is like driving a manual (and only a 3-speed, at that). It gets you to where you want to go, but doesn’t give you as many options or as smooth an operation as one of those fancy “manumatic” transmissions (like TIH). There may be something to be said for simplicity, though, for an experienced driver–I’m finding that I actually like manually managing my disk images, rather than dealing with TIH’s sometimes-arcane process. Can’t say that I’d recommend it to everyone, though, any more than I’d recommend taking a ‘Vette for a spin around Watkins Glen to every driver. YMMV.

Part of the simplicity of using Windows Backup for making a system image comes from the fact that, if you have system protection (i.e., system restore) enabled, Windows is already making system images. Yep, that’s how the system protection / system restore / restore previous versions of files capabilities work–it’s all done through Windows’ Volume Shadow Copy service (a “shadow copy” is just an image of a “protected” partition). What Windows Backup is doing when it makes an image is saving a copy of the current image in a special location where it won’t get automatically overwritten (VSC keeps multiple copies saved for system and file restores, rotating out the oldest whenever the space limit for system protection is reached on a protected partition). So this isn’t some bolt-on added utility that Microsoft barely tested before including it in Windows–imaging is deeply integrated into Windows’ data security structure.

There’s a lot to know about driving this “manual” vehicle–see my Lounge post “Using System Images” for more info.

As far as saving a system image to an external drive: I can’t remember if I ever tried this with Windows Backup; instead, I save my system images to a separate internal backup drive (large HDDs are cheap again), then copy the latest image over to a 32GB flash drive that I keep stored offsite. This approach gives me both the flexibility to easily do restores when I want to and to recover from a disaster when I need to. Making a big deal of saving an image directly to external media if you’re doing it only 1 or 2 times a year seems to me to be adding an unnecessary complication (unless you’re working with a laptop with limited disk space, of course–but then, maybe a HDD upgrade should be the first priority).

Warning: What follows is a slightly off-topic aside.

Regardless of which tool you use, though, I’d consider getting rid of that hidden “system partition” that shows up on many Windows 7 installs. Per Microsoft Technet:[INDENT]
“You can use system partitions to:

[*] Manage and load other partitions. If there are multiple operating systems, for example, Windows 7 and Windows Vista®, the computer displays a list of operating systems. The user can then select which operating system to use.
.
[*] Use security tools, such as Windows® BitLocker™ Drive Encryption.
.
[*] Use recovery tools, such as Windows Recovery Environment (Windows RE).”

[/INDENT]
Per Microsoft, the System Partition provides for those three different functions, none of which have anything to do with Windows 7’s stability. If you so wish (and don’t need one of the above three capabilities), you can avoid creating a separate System Partition upon installation; it can also be safely removed after installation.

The above information is true for both x86 and x64 installs.

While it’s also correct that the official name is “System Partition,” you may also see the term “system recovery partition” being used on online forums (including on MS Technet) for the System Partition. While that alternative term is obviously informal, it’s an understandable usage, given that system recovery is the one of the three functions of the System Partition that the majority of non-enterprise users would encounter.

Oh, and you don’t need the “recovery” capability of the System Partition if you’ve made a Recovery Disk–which closes the loop on this post!

Reply | Quote

Nice, detailed, and useful post, bethel95.

Reply | Quote

Hello All,
I’m always amazed that anyone who seriously use’s “Imaging”, for a security and backup strategy would even entertain the idea of using “Windows Backup” as part of their plan …My only guess is that they have never used one of the many free Imaging software’s that are available … or are MS devotees of using a clumsy and clunky program as Windows Backup…Something along the lines of those who love LINUX’s “Terminal” and luxuriate in typing pseudo “DOS” commands to do even the simplest of things… I posted a “Screen Shot” of a Free version of Macrium Reflect’s GUI (V-5 4694) Once again there is no comparison between the two,to try to compare them is disingenuous. “Kinda” like comparing a “Commodore 64” to my “Windows 7 64”, and pointing out to all the benefits of the commodore. Yes the MS version works…that’s all you can say about it … However to try and sell it as… “Just as good as” is Insane.:cheers: Regards Fred

PS: To you MS devotees ….Just try Macrium Reflect (any version.. even the version 4’s) , EaseUS Todo, or the pay for Acronis 2010 V-7046 (would not go past this version at this point)

Reply | Quote

I just feel there are many more features with the 3rd party apps. And the paid versions give even more. If Win 7 Backup and Restore is a single speed, balloon tired bike (you old timers know what I mean) then Acronis (paid) or Macrium (Paid), etc. are akin to my 27 speed road bike.

Reply | Quote

We all have our preferences and we do it because those preferences work for us. I really see no problem with users preferring the Windows native backup app, if it works for them.

Reply | Quote

We all have our preferences and we do it because those preferences work for us. I really see no problem with users preferring the Windows native backup app, if it works for them.

Rui,
Yes…. i don’t see any problem with using “Windows backup” either (preference wise).. The problem is that you can’t compare the two..”Windows vs 3rd party software” Because there is no comparison…other than the fact that they are both Imaging software….Regards Fred

Reply | Quote

This aside, to question the sanity of those who prefer Windows 7 imaging is well over the top in my opinion.

You should not take it literally. I think sometimes we do express our preferences with an extra bit of enthusiasm, that can look like insanity to an untrained eye :).

Reply | Quote

This aside, to question the sanity of those who prefer Windows 7 imaging is well over the top in my opinion.

mart,
Hello… I did not say that those who use MS backup are insane … i said that those who try to compare them, and say that there equal (“just as good”) are….Regards Fred

Reply | Quote

Fred,

It really goes down to what people use. It doesn’t matter if a given tool offers a lot of stuff and you use just a fraction of it. I have been using Acronis since it’s version 8 and there are just two things I do: manual image creation and the occasional mounting of an image as a virtual drive. If the features people actually use are similar, it doesn’t really matter if other free apps offer other features that do not matter to whoever is doing the comparison. So, for these comparisons, the metrics used to make them matter and those metrics are determined by the prospective users of the software. A feature list really may be meaningless for a regular user. We are a bit of a special audience and should not pretend to represent common users.

Regards

Rui

Reply | Quote

Fred,

It really goes down to what people use. A feature list really may be meaningless for a regular user. We are a bit of a special audience and should not pretend to represent common users.

Hi Rui,

Your absolutely correct … However the purpose of this forum is the exchange of knowledge and ideas… If it was not for this one (forum and the old lounge) i wouldn’t know the difference between “Imaging” and “Imogene Coca”. Everyone should be able to see all sides of an “argument” And the “common users” as you say should be made aware the shortcomings of Windows Backup vs a 3rd party Backup and a free one at that. (how else is anyone to learn?) You all can “pretend” that there is no difference between them….but it doesn’t change the facts… I stand by my statements.:cheers: Regards Fred

Reply | Quote

Hi Rui,

Your absolutely correct … However the purpose of this forum is the exchange of knowledge and ideas… If it was not for this one (forum and the old lounge) i wouldn’t know the difference between “Imaging” and “Imogene Coca”. Everyone should be able to see all sides of an “argument” And the “common users” as you say should be made aware the shortcomings of Windows Backup vs a 3rd party Backup and a free one at that. (how else is anyone to learn?) You all can “pretend” that there is no difference between them….but it doesn’t change the facts… I stand by my statements.:cheers: Regards Fred

Yes, Fred, I totally agree. I think we just need to be a bit careful with the classification of user drawn conclusions, in the name of a sane exchange of ideas :D.

Regards

Rui

Reply | Quote

Welcome to this forum’s #1 religious discussion–or maybe that’s drive partitioning. Whatever…

Any questions?

Now, just so everyone remembers exactly what I did say, not what has been implied that I said:

My experience with Windows 7 imaging vs TIH is that Win7 is like driving a manual (and only a 3-speed, at that). It gets you to where you want to go, but doesn’t give you as many options or as smooth an operation as one of those fancy “manumatic” transmissions (like TIH). There may be something to be said for simplicity, though, for an experienced driver–I’m finding that I actually like manually managing my disk images, rather than dealing with TIH’s sometimes-arcane process. Can’t say that I’d recommend it to everyone, though, any more than I’d recommend taking a ‘Vette for a spin around Watkins Glen to every driver. YMMV.

Now on to the show…

I’m always amazed that anyone who seriously use’s “Imaging”, for a security and backup strategy would even entertain the idea of using “Windows Backup” as part of their plan …My only guess is that they have never used one of the many free Imaging software’s that are available … or are MS devotees of using a clumsy and clunky program as Windows Backup…Something along the lines of those who love LINUX’s “Terminal” and luxuriate in typing pseudo “DOS” commands to do even the simplest of things… Yes the MS version works…that’s all you can say about it … However to try and sell it as… “Just as good as” is Insane.

I used Acronis True Image for years on my XP system, and (as I said) had already bought a copy of 2010 to use on my new Win7 system when I decided to try the “Microsoft only” approach. This was purely an experiment to see what the Win7 tools were capable of doing–I stuck with this path only because (1) I liked the way it worked, (2) I liked the idea of not complicating matters with third-party software unless I needed it (same reason for sticking with MSE, even though I had bought a copy of Norton 360), and (3) I decided that I didn’t need the “extra features” of TIH.

For the record, I hardly ever use a command line (and usually only when some support geek asks me to do so), though I will admit to still writing and using batch files (simple ones–I can’t even remember how my old DOS 3 batch files work).

I just feel there are many more features with the 3rd party apps. And the paid versions give even more. If Win 7 Backup and Restore is a single speed, balloon tired bike (you old timers know what I mean) then Acronis (paid) or Macrium (Paid), etc. are akin to my 27 speed road bike.

Not sure that the analogy works–most folks I know find a 27-speed bike much more difficult to master than than a beach cruiser. That’s a comparison of complexity that works in the beach cruiser’s favor. Perhaps a better comparison would be a simple 3-speed bike to one of the expensive automatic transmission bikes (that have far more than three gear ratios)? Nah, I’ll just stick with the car analogy, and admit that an automatic is a nice feature to have if most of what you’re doing is commuting.

I should mention that I depend on Windows Backup solely for making the occasional system image after a major change, not for backing up data. For easy data recovery, I lean on Win7’s Restore Previous Versions feature–it’s as simple as it gets, and does the job well.

For mass data recovery (in case of disaster), I use GoodSync (paid version) to sync data to an external HDD, which is then rotated offsite every few weeks. I like syncing to an external HDD rather than using a “backup” program, because what I end up with is just files–no proprietary backup formats, no zip files with arcane names, etc.–I can just copy what I need back to my internal HDD. Since GoodSync allows for historical versions, it works for restoring files to a point in time, as well, though I have to use its interface to do so (rather than just copying in Explorer). Overall, it’s a much easier tool to use for data backup to an external HDD than TIH. IMO.

i don’t see any problem with using “Windows backup” either (preference wise).. The problem is that you can’t compare the two..”Windows vs 3rd party software” Because there is no comparison…other than the fact that they are both Imaging software….Regards Fred

There’s always a comparison. Perhaps the only time that “there’s no comparison” is said is when someone doesn’t want the comparison to be made (for religious reasons?). Again, how a comparison comes out depends on what the exact task is and the skills and preferences of the user.

Hello… I did not say that those who use MS backup are insane … i said that those who try to compare them, and say that there equal (“just as good”) are….Regards Fred

Again for the record, the only person to say “just as good” anywhere is this thread is you, Fred. Go back and search, and you’ll see no one else said that. As for “equal,” Mart44 did say that he thought that the imaging function of Win7 Backup was equal to the “few imaging programs” that he tried; perhaps for what he wanted to do and how he wanted it done, compared to the specific apps he tried, it was. That’s just his stating his impression and preference, and he doesn’t deserve to be excoriated for offering it in a public forum.

However the purpose of this forum is the exchange of knowledge and ideas…

Exactly! I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Everyone should be able to see all sides of an “argument”

Again, I agree–so why would we want to suppress the other side of the argument? How else can we “see” them both (or all, as it’s rarely binary)?

And the “common users” as you say should be made aware the shortcomings of Windows Backup vs a 3rd party Backup and a free one at that. (how else is anyone to learn?)

Or vice-versa–again, since such comparisons are rarely binary, depending (as they do) on the context of preferences, past experiences, desired outcome, etc.

You all can “pretend” that there is no difference between them….but it doesn’t change the facts…

One more time: No one said, “there is no difference between them,” except you, Fred. You seem to be having an argument with someone who isn’t here. Wherever that person is, he’s not in this thread.

Reply | Quote

Meanwhile, where the head meets the platter, I was able to image my two ailing drives (one the boot drive) to two new HDDs of a larger sizes. Using Norton for XP (back when Norton was Norton & meant something).

Interesting thread. I must say, I’ve been in PCs since 1983 (IBM PC with two FULL height floppy drives and 16 K on the motherboard). No HDD. But it makes me a bit queasy to remove a reserved system partition in order to get a backup to work. I also think that Windows is better and better (since v3.4) but MS does make mistakes. Putting out a backup scheme with the kind of flaw I’ve found and having exactly zero corporate support is, well, another four letter word.

Reply | Quote