I get such junk in my mail. This from a respected insurance company, apparently trying to sell its security advice: … there’s significant latent ris
[See the full post at: From the oreally files: Elderly will remain at risk for Win7 infections]
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From the oreally files: Elderly will remain at risk for Win7 infections
- This topic has 53 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 5 years ago.
AuthorViewing 18 reply threadsAuthor-
How is this not true?
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Okay, I’ll bite.
Why are “individuals, non-profits, and the elderly” particularly at risk?
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Lack of cash and staff to pay for and organize patches or other sufficient safety measures now it’s ceased to be automatic.
But you’ve turned it around. Susan is encouraging everyone not to use Windows 7 on the internet, but you’re not. Will there be a time in the future when you and she agree, and what will have changed between now and then?
Why do you intimate that those people are not “at risk for the foreseeable future”?
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Perhaps implying that the elderly are more likely than the general population to be computer illiterate and not cognizant of the risks of running an unsupported, unpatched OS? (Which, at one time I think was probably quite true, but I don’t know whether it’s still accurate today or not.) Not sure why they’d make that assumption about non-profits though, and with individuals–if by that we mean ‘people who are neither IT professionals, nor operating their PCs under the supervision of IT professionals’–I think it’s very much a crapshoot.
i7-10700k - ASROCK Z590 Pro4 - 1TB 970 EVO Plus M.2 - DDR4 3200 x 32GB - GeForce RTX 3060 Ti FTW - Windows 10 Pro
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I can tell you that non-profits are much more likely to have antiquated hardware and no IT staff to update the OS or the software than for-profits. That would seem obvious. As for the elderly, this is a decades-old urban legend which still has legs in organizations which fire or force retirement on workers over 50 years old. I would be really interested in the name of that insurance company, and whether they are trying to sell identity theft insurance or riders.
-- rc primak
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No – the “elderly” are not more likely than the general population to be computer illiterate and not cognizant of the risks of running an unsupported, unpatched OS.
It is the “elderly” who grew up with computers and understand how they work.
Many of them remember IBM punch cards and trips to the computer center to deliver their days work, wrapped in a rubber band, and returning the next morning to pick up the results of overnight runs.
They are the ones who wrote their college papers using PCs running DOS and WordStar and then printing the results using a daisy wheel printer.
They are the secretaries and clerks who gave up using typewriters, white out, and type over tape in favor of computers and word processing software
They were active when DOS made way for Windows 1.0 – 2.0 then Windows 3.0 – 3.1, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8, and finally Windows 10.
It was the “elderly” who began using dial-up internet service in the late 1980’s (yes, data was sent by copper wires) to send messages. By the end of the 80’s it was the “elderly” who stopped sending messages by telex in favor of email. And it is the “elderly” who remember using Netscape to browse the web.
The “elderly” had a front row seat and watched the evolution of internet carried threats and the response to the threats by organizations like Norton.
If anything, it is “elderly” who cannot afford to keep up with advances in technology (planned obsolescence) by buying new computers, operating systems, and subscription software.
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Hmm, the start of the predictable scaremongering post Windows 7 EOS.
Still, perhaps this example will budge people still on Windows 7 to update/check their (GP settings if they have them Pro versions above but not on Home editions) firewalls, AV’s, browser, browser security extensions and email client spam filters.
Just anchored down a Windows 7 yesterday that was using avast free..needless to say, the PC no longer relies on avast for AV security (as the client wished after reading articles)If debian is good enough for NASA...-
Still, perhaps this example will budge people still on Windows 7 to update/check their (GP settings if they have them Pro versions above but not on Home editions) firewalls, AV’s, browser, browser security extensions and email client spam filters.
That little lot is what most non-profits, elderly and many individuals will not have the knowledge, skill or resources for.
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Low-budget organizations certainly should.
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Setting Windows Update to automatic is asking for trouble.
How do you know that whatever comes down the pipe won’t bork your machine unexpectedly?6 users thanked author for this post.
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Besides the above precautions , one should download 0patch
Can most non-profit organizations (or even many small businesses) afford $26 per computer, virtual machine and server, per year?
Will most even know they should consider it?
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Most nonprofits better be running some Enterprise/Educational/Institutional version of Windows
Most aren’t, but even if they were; how would that make sticking with Windows 7 better?
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If that nonprofit’s mission critical software is only been vetted/certified for 7 and the costs of re-vetting/re-certifying that nonprofit’s mission critical software for any newer Windows OS is prohibitive then it’s better to get Windows 7 Extended Updates through some institutional 7 license(Enterprise/volume/SMB/Institutional Windows OS variant) .
And any nonprofit not set up as a non-profit corporation is legally taking a greater risk compared to the small legal cost needed to be set up as a non-profit corporation and you will have to prove to me that most non-profits are not actually been set and non-profit corporations for legal liability reasons alone.
Remember that most organizations are running some form of mission critical software and that’s a larger cost than any OS licensing costs and that’s why XP was in its paid extended update phase just as 7 is as well. If a company/non-profit/institutional Windows OS user has some bespoke/custom mission critical software then that software has to be re-vetted/re-certified for any new OS/OS variant at great cost compared to an OS license/licenses. Most business/others want to only incur that cost once every 10 years if possible and that mission critical software’s re-vetting/re-certifying costs/amortization 10 year cycle may not match up with MS’s 10 year OS lifecycle.
So purchasing the extended 7 update support is a bargain as long as possible while getting the most out of that mission critical software that’s only been vetted and certified for 7, especially for the many that took extra time to move from XP to 7 when 7 was in its mainstream/lifetime support cycle, for the very same reason under XP. OS licenses are relatively a small portion of the overall software costs with the mission critical software having to be vetted/certified on any OS/New OS variant because if that mission critical fails to work then the business/entity can not function. They do call it mission critical software for a reason and that software has to be vetted/certified on any OS/OS version for as close to 100% uptime as possible or serious money could be lost.
P.S. Any Nonprofit running consumer windows 10 and not the Enterprise/Institutional 10 variant is just asking for a privacy lawsuit from any of its clients especially in California. I’d run Linux(Privacy oriented distro as most are) or get some nonprofit licensing for Enterprise/Institutional Windows 10 where all the privacy settings are available for the Enterprise/Institutional Windows 10 version.
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Woody quoted an unnamed insurance company:
… there’s significant latent risk remaining from Windows 7 users. While some institutions have the resources to continue patch support and eventually upgrade; individuals, non-profits, and the elderly will remain at risk for the foreseeable future.
My reaction depends on what precisely the company is recommending. Are they pushing people into switching to Windows 10, or are they providing information on how to protect their Windows 7 systems following the end of regular monthly patching?
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Or are they selling identity theft insurance policies or riders?
-- rc primak
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The main problem with targeting those particular categories for scaremongering over Windows 7 is that many of them are probably still using XP!
As an elderly Windows 7 user myself, I’m conscious of the fact that I’m in no different position today than I was before EOL, except that I’ve installed the January updates already whereas last year I didn’t do so until early February – in accordance with the DefCon ratings in both cases. On that basis, last year I didn’t install the February updates until 8th March so it isn’t really until that sort of time this year that I’ll be missing anything due to EOL.
In the meantime we’ll see what happens in February anyway, given that MS have said they’ll issue a fix for the “stretched screen” bug and we don’t know what else from the ESU will get included in any such patch.
So for me the position remains that my thoughts are moving closer to Windows 10, although without any sense of panic or impending doom. For one thing, I’m still considering the options of upgrading versus new machines.
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MS is thanking non extended update qualified Windows 7 users by not allowing them to install/re-install MSE. But MS is allowing anyone with MSE still installed to continue to get virus signature updates. I have had to uninstall MSE from 3 out of 4 laptops that had MSE installed(MSE borking KB installations causing failed reboot to apply update) but only one of those laptops has had MSE re-installed(Before Jan 14 2020). So the remainder of the 3 MSE laptops(2) are currently unprotected as MS will not allow any more new MSE installations/activation.
So now its just a matter of finding some alternative to MSE and staying far away from 10.
It may be a good Idea to just create a new partition on the laptop’s hard drive/SSD and install Linux Mint/other Linux OS distro on a new partition and dual boot Linux and Windows 7 and keep 7 offline and use Linux/Firefox if things become too unsafe for unpatched 7 online. That’s probably the best way to keep 7 around longer term and still be able to run Windows applications under 7 in an offline state if possible.
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Many of our shops customers are elderly. When the blue full screen warning message comes up, we get a call from them. I’ve upgraded about a dozen customers since the message appeared on their screen. Only in one instance was Windows corrupted enough to warrant a clean install of W10 and a new SSD. The Media Creation Tool upgrades go smoothly and customers are happy. If most of them, on a fixed income, had to pay extra for Windows 10 they would switch to Chromebooks, or I would install Linux with LibreOffice on their old box, instead of buying a new PC, which would chew up a huge percentage of their monthly fixed income. I must thank Microsoft for still allowing the free upgrade from 7 to 10.
GreatAndPowerfulTech
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I have the distinct impression that, broadly speaking, more than a few of us here might be described as “elderly.” Oh Dear!
But that we are “elderly” might also mean, for some of us at least, having a certain ability to survive in a fast-changing and in many ways dangerous world. Even of those of us sticking with Win 7, but having also alternatives, so we don’t need to use it for whatever we need or want to do on the Web.
As to a supposed disagreement on the quality of Windows 10 between Susan and Woody: Susan writes primarily for IT people in companies that can afford to have them, Woody, for all those (including me) who can’t. I see no grounds for contradiction, when it is a case of apples and oranges.
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV5 users thanked author for this post.
A coupla thoughts:
- “Elderly”: I hate this word. It connotates a thin, feeble-minded, stick thin, doddering, tottering shell of humanity barely competent to open the front door or answer the phone. “Senior” is much better. I realize the history of the language necessitates it’s use in legalese, but still, I prefer “Senior”. Oddly enough, “Elder”, when used properly, has a lot more respect going for it in terms honorable. I consider myself a “Senior” or an “Elder”.
- For years, con-men and fraudsters have preyed on Elders due to the fact that (there’s no going around it) a significant portion of the population IS going to see their mental acuity roll off in later years. But that doesn’t mean everyone over 65 is a vegetable. I had an aunt who was driving until she was 90, and reluctantly gave up her bicycle at 95. She died at 101. M grandfather packed it in at 93. Personally, the old chassis here has more than the average mileage on it for my age, but the elevator in the Brain Hotel, though slower than when I was 30, still goes all the way to the top! (BTW, I would prefer not being in a Senior Complex, seeing the ambulance carrying them out feet first every week; it’s horribly depressing. I like being around people of all ages.)
- People who prey on vulnerable (i.e. diminished mental capacity) Seniors, whether through scamming or over-insuring them, (yes, that happens) ought to be set adrift on an ice floe in nothing but a bathing suit. It’s the lowest form of theft.
I don’t know…in a lot of societies, Elders, village or otherwise, are often honored and sought out for their wisdom and experience, if they have gained such. (There’s no fool like an old fool.) In other societies, they can’t wait to get them plowed under.
As for the intent of the article, having had many decades of experience with insurers, there are good ones, and there are rotters, same with adjusters. I went through The Fires of 2003, 2009 and 2014 out here in the West, and I got lucky and got a good one of each when my house was nearly incinerated. There are good and bad of both. Check with your state’s Dept of Insurance regarding complaints before signing on with any of them!
Just my .002 .
Win7 Pro SP1 64-bit, Dell Latitude E6330, Intel CORE i5 "Ivy Bridge", 12GB RAM, Group "0Patch", Multiple Air-Gapped backup drives in different locations. Linux Mint Greenhorn
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"The more kinks you put in the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the pipes." -ScottyIt’s those weak immune systems the elderly have. Far more vulnerable to Windows 7 infections.
We are SysAdmins.
We walk in the wiring closets no others will enter.
We stand on the bridge, and no malware may pass.
We engage in support, we do not retreat.
We live for the LAN.
We die for the LAN.2 users thanked author for this post.
Judging by the number of sites like Ask Woody, I would say ALL computer users are at risk especially since the advent of win10. In 40 yrs I have not had as much trouble with simply updating the software. MSFT has created a monster and like the proverbial tiger by the tail, cant hold on and cant let go…..
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DriftyDon: “MSFT has created a monster and like the proverbial tiger by the tail, cant hold on and cant let go…..”
Actually it can always jump clear off the tiger, as suggested by several people commenting here earlier. For example, it can slow down the rate of “upgrading” to a new version and occupy its human resources in fixing the present one until it is generally in good shape, then keep it current for a few years and only introduce a new one when there is a clear need to move on with the times. Slowing things down will also give developers at MS time to make and test any necessary patches better and vet them more thoroughly, before they send them out into the world.
But that is not going to happen any time soon, because the leadership of the company is concentrated on much more important things, such as the development of AI, quantum computers, the IoT and anything conceivable with “Cloud” in it. Whether those things are coming or are just piped dreams, it excites investors with money to burn, this raises share prices and market valuations and, with them, the corresponding bonuses of those in the leadership.
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV1 user thanked author for this post.
My elderly mother will continue to run win7 with excellent security software, a malware detector and a limited user account. She does no financial transactions. If she’s infected by something, I’ll restore a backup. In event of real calamity, I’ll move her to a spare laptop running linux, where her Firefox and Thunderbird profiles are backed up in an xfce desktop environment, the closest thing to the windows she’s used to. Closer, in fact, than win 10 would be.
3 users thanked author for this post.
There seems to be a lot of smoke out there but are there hard facts to support that it is riskier to use Windows 7 vs. 10.
Stated another way, has anyone done a quantitative analysis of the risk of using Windows 7 and good security software vs. Windows 10?
Kathy Stevens: “Stated another way, has anyone done a quantitative analysis of the risk of using Windows 7 and good security software vs. Windows 10?”
This thread has been started with the criticism of a statement made by an insurer, who, presumably, is in the business of assessing risk to decide what the insurance premiums for a certain type of risk should be, assuming that the risk is insurable at all. To do this best, insurers use actuarial data, distilled from many cases on which there is at least some reliable information, with a good-sized ladle of statistical analysis poured on them.
On the issue at hand, whether old people are more vulnerable if they stay with Win 7 than if they move on, presumably, to Win 10, it seems to me that there cannot be reliable actuarial data, because Win 7 just went out of service and Win 10 only now becomes a, perhaps, significantly safer alternative. The gathering of the necessary data on this could only have just have barely started — assuming anyone is already keeping score, which I really doubt.
So, with no actuarial data, the insurer, instead, sticks (metaphorically) a finger in his or her mouth to wet it and then rises it into the air to figure out which way the wind is blowing. Only the wind is not always blowing, or if it is, it may not blow steadily in one direction for very long. And the wet-finger-sticking insurer cannot know if it will blow steadily or not.
In short: the insurer, right now at least, might just as well make use of the weekly horoscope in the local newspaper or elucubrate on the answers possibly hidden in the pages of The National Enquirer. Or in the sequence of words that come up in a game of Scrabble.
But, to be fair: what else could an insurer do about the elderly sticking with Windows 7 that want insurance on the risks associated with their cute-pictures-of-grand-children-swapping activities? Because that is what the elderly use their computers for all the time, don’t they? And they are positively clamoring to be insured, aren’t they?
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV1 user thanked author for this post.
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My recommendation is that everyone updates to Windows 10 – like it or not.
That said, Windows 7 has been around since 2009. Over its 10-year history it has been exposed to numerous threats.
An analysis of the risk of using Windows 7 moving forward can start with an examination of the operating system’s past history. How many and what kind of threats has the operating system been exposed to historically? How many of the risks were caught by good security software? How many of the risks circumvented security software and infected or disabled the operating system – ransom ware, etc.? And, in comparison, how did Windows 10 perform vs. Windows 7?
A similar risk analysis can be undertaken for risks encountered by Windows XP users after its end of life. And, did the risks of using Windows XP diminish over time?
Another set of questions revolves around the economic exposure of the insurance company.
The economic exposure to a Windows 7 computer being used in the home environment is limited. There is probably no or nominal insurable value for personal photos, email, etc. on a home computer and the household is unlikely to go out of business due to their use of Windows 7. And the depreciated value of a Windows 7 computer has got to be minimal. Thus, nominal risk to the home insurer. Yes, there is risk of identity theft but identity theft can come from a variety of sources and it would be difficult to prove that it was the result of a Windows 7 breach.
Nonprofits are another matter. An infection by ransom ware or another virus can be devastating and an organization has a fiduciary responsibility to upgrade to Windows 10 to ensure their survival if they are dependent on computers for their continuing operations. If a nonprofit is not in a position to upgrade to Windows 10 it is probably not in a position to secure insurance to protect them from the deficiencies of Windows 7 and the cost of insurance question becomes moot.
That being said, anyone reading this post should spend some time helping their friends, neighbors, and nonprofits use Microsoft’s free Windows 10 upgrade feature to upgrade their machines.
Insurers’ exposure to Windows 7 in the business environment is significantly different. The business environment is complex and legacy software may prevent an upgrade of some Windows 7 machines to Windows 10. However, it is inexcusable for any business to rely solely on Windows 7 computers. The cost of updating PCs to Windows 10 is nominal and I find it unlikely that any insurer will write business continuation insurance, at a reasonable cost, for a business’s failure through its own negligence.
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EP
Have you asked your hospital and doctor why they have not migrated to Windows 10?
Some of the greatest leaks of sensitive personal information have been from medical related databases!
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These nonsense and lies need to end. I am about to start an experment. Two computers fresh installs for 7 sp1 and wherever version ms wants. You the reader suggest what I do on each computer. One will be mostly update free and the other will be at ms mercy. We will see what the truth is. Is an unpatched computer really less usable then a patched one or are patches going to cause more trouble then “possible” weeknesses ?
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