• Electric Cars

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    #2174518

    I predict that it won’t be long before the entire auto industry switches over to all electric cars.

    With air pollution standards being strict, it will be a lot easier for car manufacturers to meet the standards if they produce and sell electric cars. Electric cars produce a similar amount of pollution as internal combustion cars, just not at the time you drive them. In other words, the pollution will be someone else’s problem, not the car companies’ problem.

    I think car companies are devoting enormous resources to developing viable electric cars, because they know that once they do, they will easily meet the strict anti-pollution standards.

    I fear the following about electric cars:
    * They will be more expensive to purchase and repair than internal combustion cars.
    * They will be a lot more hackable.

    On a related note, I have a theory: I’ll bet I could get a powerful inverter generator and hook it up to my electric car, then keep the battery at full capacity simply by running the generator whenever I’m driving. Inverter generators are quiet, and they put out clean power. If that technology could be incorporated into electric cars, I’ll bet you could run them entirely on gasoline and get a lot better mileage than with a standard internal combustion car. From what I’ve heard, one of the tricks to getting good gas mileage is to run your motor at a steady, consistent speed; and if all your motor does is charge the battery, it can run at a very steady, consistent speed.

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    • #2174580

      On a related note, I have a theory: I’ll bet I could get a powerful inverter generator and hook it up to my electric car, then keep the battery at full capacity simply by running the generator whenever I’m driving. Inverter generators are quiet, and they put out clean power. If that technology could be incorporated into electric cars, I’ll bet you could run them entirely on gasoline and get a lot better mileage than with a standard internal combustion car. From what I’ve heard, one of the tricks to getting good gas mileage is to run your motor at a steady, consistent speed; and if all your motor does is charge the battery, it can run at a very steady, consistent speed.

      This describes the typical hybrid vehicle with Atkinson-cycle engine.

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    • #2174607

      I think that hybrid vehicles are the best thing for the present.  The super strict emissions standards that are being imposed on cars are unrealistic.  All electric cars do is transfer the burden of energy production and the resulting pollution to Electric Power Plants.  The more electric cars there are, the more electricity the Power Plants have to generate.

      Being 20 something in the 70's was far more fun than being 70 something in the insane 20's
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      • #2174729

        All electric cars do is transfer the burden of energy production and the resulting pollution to Electric Power Plants.

        Precisely.

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      • #2175259

        Also isn’t there a need of recycling or reclaiming the lithium-ion batteries, has there been substantial progress in this matter?

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    • #2174733

      Lets just keep our high consumption fossil fuel powered cars running ’cause we’ll never run out of fossil fuel and global warming is a hoax [/sarcasm].

      cheers, Paul

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      • #2175092

        Around 10 to 15 years ago I read in a magazine that normal cars at that time were 96% more efficient than the cars of 1970.  Have straight gasoline/petrol powered cars backslidden that much in recent years?

        Being 20 something in the 70's was far more fun than being 70 something in the insane 20's
        • #2175528

          I think your article was gilding the lily.
          Internal combustion engines are around 20% efficient, so if we assume they were 15% efficient in the 70s, aerodynamics are much better and tyres have less rolling resistance we can maybe make a case that they are 90% more efficient, but how many more cars do we now have?

          cheers, Paul

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          • #2175656

            Computerized electronic fuel injection, which replaced the carburetor also had a lot to do with overall efficiency helping improve emissions while still giving a good power to mileage ratio.

            Being 20 something in the 70's was far more fun than being 70 something in the insane 20's
            • #2176208

              EFI is more about meeting emission rules than anything else, but it still hasn’t overcome the very poor overall efficiency – electric motors are generally over 80% efficient.

              cheers, Paul

    • #2174736

      I predict that it won’t be long before the entire auto industry switches over to all electric cars.

      OK. I’ll wait and see. I’ve owned two gas hyrids and one plug-in hybrid. If you’d like thoughtful, well-assembled information from a great industry source you could start following what’s up at Plug In America. I interviewed these guys in around 2010 on my old talk radio show Blue Planet Almanac. Great people.

      Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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    • #2174753

      Hi Guys.

      Some misconceptions re electric power. I have driven an EV now for 2 years and in that time I have only charged using companies that are 100% renewables. Thats Solar, wind, biomass, hydro and that controversial ‘Clean’ power Nuclear. Whichever way you look at it, not fossil fuel.

      The UK currently generates more power from renewables that from fossil and the remaining coal powered power stations will be shutdown by 2025

      https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-uk-renewables-generate-more-electricity-than-fossil-fuels-for-first-time

      Perhaps some countries need to catchup….

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    • #2175118

      I drive a Prius Hybrid but it will be quite some time before an all electric car will fit my needs since I am out in the desert. Long drives and having to sit there recharging is not my idea of a good trip.

      Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does 🙂
      All W10 Pro at 22H2,(2 Desktops, 1 Laptop).

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    • #2175203

      A Plug-in Electric Hybrid Vehicle (PHEV) gets about 300 miles on a combination of electricity and gasoline.

      Off-peak electricity production and transmission capacity could fuel the daily commutes of 73 percent percent of all cars, light trucks, SUVs and vans on the road today if they were PHEVs, a 2007 study by Pacific Northwest National Laboratory found. Possible a newer study is available, but I wouldn’t expect a drastic change +/- in results.

      While this certainly will help the environment, even with tax credits as a stimulus, change will be slow. People will resist change for whatever reasons. If I were much younger than I am, I would consider an EV as my daily driver for getting to and from work. I’m not against public transportation, but I like the freedom my own transportation provides.

      The Union of Concerned Scientist found that “Manufacturing a mid-sized EV with an 84-mile range results in about 15% more emissions than manufacturing an equivalent gasoline vehicle.” Shifting the burden of charging EV’s to other entities was a necessity, just as internal combustion vehicle manufactures do with fuel.

      Over 90% of an EV battery can be recycled. Current lithium resources for battery manufacturing (without recycling existing batteries) is expected to last another 70 or so years, who knows what type of powered transportation will be available at that time. I suppose if the impossible (perpetual motion) were achieved it would also have cons.

      Air pollution and global warming are interconnected, but don’t mistake an EV as a cure for this. Deforestation adds more atmospheric CO2 than the sum total of cars and trucks on the world’s roads, and that doesn’t include all the other nasty things resulting from deforestation. It’s far worse than any type of vehicle emissions or manufacturing technique. Every little bit helps though.

      As long as driving for the pleasure of sight seeing isn’t impeded, what I drive isn’t a concern. I no longer have a daily commute to worry about, and soon enough I won’t be a concern either.

      anon51

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    • #2175242

      I am a bit afraid of the batteries exploding and/or catching fire, Lithiuim burns hot. At any rate for a few more years they will be mostly for local driving due to lack of charging stations ( Mmm just remembered my new Shoprite has a charging station in the parking lot.) How ever if you a taking, say a 500 mile trip I would take that bet Jim 😉
      I was wondering a bout solar charging but it would seem to be a whole house (or maybe 1/2) size effort.

      My bet for the NEXT gen of electric cars would be Hydrogen fed fuel cell. Of course H can be rather bangy too, but there has been some progress in storing H safely.

      🍻

      Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
      • This reply was modified 5 years ago by wavy.
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      • #2175257

        Battery’s reliability is an issue but not the only, or the main one; the environmental costs of manufacturing the cars and batteries, costs that depend on the sources of electricity used to those ends; the availability of the necessary infrastructure for recharging the cars and replacing their batteries in a reasonably unobtrusive way, particularly during long journeys, are also questions that will take time to be resolved, and this time will be longer or shorter, depending, among other things, on governments’ policies.

        Other measures, such as a quick and steady progression to most electricity being generated from renewable resources of low environmental impact, which means replacing much of the fossil fuel burning power stations as well as the hydro-powered ones with other sources, the adoption of such things as, possibly, carbon trading and carbon taxes on energy generation and consumption (and exactly how?), as well as improvements in the overall efficiency of electrical vehicles in general and of car and big trucks in particular, are all things that will have to be implemented. But such measures will find considerable resistance from those in the fossil fuel and hydro power business, citizen’s indifference or hostility (as, once upon a time, there was to the imposition of using seat-belts, for example) plus the sheer amount of work required to get it all done. Which, with luck, will be done, eventually. But I hope that “eventually” be “soon, before the need becomes a truly urgent one.”

        These issues, in a reasonable world, will not be politicized, but tackled head on.

        Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

        MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
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        • #2175351

          don’t forget nuclear power Oscar

          Other measures, such as a quick and steady progression to most electricity being generated from renewable resources of low environmental impact, which means replacing much of the fossil fuel burning power stations as well as the hydro-powered ones with other sources, the adoption of such things as, possibly, carbon trading and carbon taxes on energy generation and consumption (and exactly how?), as well as improvements in the overall efficiency of electrical vehicles in general and of car and big trucks in particular, are all things that will have to be implemented.

          Carbon trading seemed to be IMHO a boondoggle from the beginning, but what ever works.

          🍻

          Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
          • #2175367

            Wavy: I agree, that is why I added a questioning parenthesis in that sentence.

            Loopholes have been left open in the various international agreements and legislation on carbon-trading that tend to negate their purpose. But that is not a simple matter, and may take a few more trys to get it into an effective shape, assuming that is possible. If not, something else will have to be done with the same purpose.

            Nuclear power is probably a solution of last resort, although there are new ideas, some tested in small scale reactors that hold some promise to significantly ameliorate the dangers of radioactive waste that are tangled up with a very staunch “not in my backyard, you don’t!” attitude that is pretty much universal when it comes to finding a site for its safe disposal for several thousand years. Also building them in their present form has been cripplingly expensive — although I never have understood quite why: it’s just how it is. And their decommissioning, when the time comes, is not cheap, either. Plus things like Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima are firmly implanted in many people’s memories, and are not going away from there any time soon. Then there is nuclear fusion, a who knows, at the moment, how feasible an alternative it may be as a large-scale solution, or when, that is supposed to be almost radioactive-waste free.

            However, and before we get taken to task for being off-topic, we better get back to discussing electric cars…

            Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

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    • #2175283

      I must say that the comments in this thread are being both very thoughtful as well as informative. I am in the most desirable situation of not having to drive more than once or twice a week, mostly to a nearby supermarket or a meeting, or to see friends that live nearby. So most of my driving is to a short distance away and not often. But the rise and rise of both pollution (I always include CO2 and CH4, although unrelated in origin, under this title, because I consider them both to be injurious, eventually, to our survival as members of civilized nations) and the fast increase in the numbers  of cars, trucks, etc. world-wide, as nations such as China, India, and others rise from a situation of widespread poverty to one of progressively greater generalized affluence, means that, whatever one might do on one’s own, this is something to be dealt with a determination that requires the pushing for the necessary changes by all citizens that feel concerned about this. As US president Frankly D. Roosevelt once said to people asking for necessary reforms: “I hear you; but you must push me to do it, so I can get it done.”

      Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

      MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
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    • #2175659

      Another thing to think about if considering an electric car is that the things that we take for granted in internal combustion engine cars like the heater, headlights, air conditioning, and high power audio systems all depend on the battery and take a big chunk out of the mileage you might expect to get out of one complete charge.  The mileage advertised probably won’t be what you get.

      Being 20 something in the 70's was far more fun than being 70 something in the insane 20's
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      • #2175858

        Charlie: “…the things that we take for granted in internal combustion engine cars like the heater, headlights, air conditioning, and high power audio systems all depend on the battery and take a big chunk out of the mileage you might expect to get out of one complete charge.

        Good point: while I don’t much care about having a “high power audio system” in my car, as it is not really necessary for getting from A to B — for my entertainment a regular car radio plying softly does it, while it also helps me keep my hearing in good shape — the other things you mention are definitely necessities. For air conditioning, though, that depends on season and location.

        I believe that hybrids with good combustion engines’ efficiency are probably a good intermediate step before we are quite ready to have an all-electric vehicle fleet across a whole country.

        So: this, in my view, is a point in favor for MrJimPhelps that started this thread by commenting precisely on the advantages of hybrid vehicles.

        Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

        MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
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        • #2175870

          Okay I admit the “high powered audio system” was a bit tongue-in-cheek.  But a lot of new cars have radios (HD FM/AM/CD/MP3 player) that generally pump out some pretty thumpy bass (to please the younger gens.).  I’m not sure but I would think this applies to European cars as well.  I’m with you on not having the radio blasting and have had to turn the bass back on my 2012 Scion TC with its 140W stock radio that came with the car.

          Being 20 something in the 70's was far more fun than being 70 something in the insane 20's
    • #2188653

      Another reason why I believe car companies want to move to all electric vehicles: They will be able to force the customer to come to the dealer for repairs. John Deere is already doing this with their computerized tractors, and General Motors is arguing for this:

      https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/203913-general-motors-john-deere-want-to-keep-tinkering-self-repair-illegal

      And this:

      https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

      Of course, this also means that these companies can easily build in obsolescence, forcing you to buy a new car, if they choose not to repair their older all-electric cars.

      I sincerely hope that at some point the government doesn’t outlaw cars powered by internal combustion engines.

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      • #2188773

        MrJimPhelps: “I sincerely hope that at some point the government doesn’t outlaw cars powered by internal combustion engines.”

        And, or that governments come up, as they ought to, with reasonable and comprehensive regulation of the various aspects of the sales, maintenance, road-worthiness, etc. of electric cars. As such regulations are already in place in the case of vehicles with internal combustion engines.

        Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

        MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
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      • #2189236

        Yeah its getting worse, Apple is a prime culprit, John Deere ..
        You may want to check out :

        https://repair.org/

        🍻

        Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
    • #2188980

      force the customer to come to the dealer for repairs

      This is illegal in plenty of places – anti competitive practices.

      cheers, Paul

      • #2189198

        This is illegal in plenty of places – anti competitive practices.

        John Deere is doing it as we speak. They claim that they own the software that is in the tractor, and that therefore they have the right to control who accesses that software, which means that a farmer must take his tractor to John Deere, or get a John Deere service tech to come fix his tractor. This not only delays repairs, but makes them a lot more expensive. If a farmer gets a used part in good working order and installs it on his John Deere tractor, the part won’t work unless John Deere “activates” it.

        If I were a farmer, I would never buy a John Deere tractor; I would look for a non-computerized used tractor in good working condition, one that I could repair myself.

        And that’s why I don’t want a computerized car – I prefer an old-school car that I can fix myself, or that someone of my choosing can fix. Best of all, one which can’t be controlled by an outside source. The new cars are all “connected”, and they are all computerized. It won’t be long before the government gains the ability to control people’s cars, all in the name of public safety. Imagine the safety advantages if the police are in a high-speed chase. They could shut down the other car remotely, thereby protecting the public from the dangers of a high-speed chase. In that case, there would be a public safety reason for the government to control a car remotely. But by giving that power to the government, what is to stop them from abusing that power when there isn’t an emergency? And what is to stop a skilled hacker from taking over your connected, computerized car?

        A non-connected car represents freedom of the highest order. I don’t want to lose my freedom.

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        • #2189242

          Its not just tractors but combines and other big equipment costing hundreds or millions of $$. Your what ever breaks down in the middle of a harvest and instead of swapping out a little piece you need an AUTHORIZED repair person to get around to your problem. Farmers have always been very self sufficient and resourceful, they HATE this.
          So do I.

          🍻

          Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.
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        • #2189257

          That software and related equipment that John Deere controls so jealously, would it be, by any chance, the one that uses GPS signals to guide a tractor over large fields to keep in to the correct furrows’ pattern, so-called “precision farming”, typically used by big agribusiness in large fields, rather than in regular farms the property of a family? Having a tractor guided in this way, in regular farms, might be convenient to use but not really necessary. Other purposes, such as to regulate how much fertilizer or pesticide to put where, do not require using Johns Deere’s GPS-based precise location system. A hand-held receiver plugged to a laptop probably will do, along with a map created with a computer and then printed in the farmer’s office (farmers, these days, are no slouches when it comes to using this type of equipment). So a question to be clarified would be: is it possible to buy a tractor from John Deere without the GPS system, that is not really an integral part of the tractor, so the issue discussed here does not apply to such a tractor? I am inclined to believe that this should be possible, just as the opposite is possible: buying John Deere’s GPS system by itself, for quite a number of purposes other than to help carry out large-scale farming operations.

          Also, I am not sure what Apple has to do with the topic of this conversation.

          Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

          MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
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          • #2189297

            …convenient to use but not really necessary.

            Exactly. I believe a knowledgeable, experienced farmer could do just fine without all of the “help” that John Deere wants to give him. (That is, with an old-fashioned all-mechanical tractor.) And as the articles point out, that convenience comes at a price – they can’t repair their own equipment — John Deere is claiming what amounts to legal ownership of the tractor that the farmer bought and paid for.

            Also, I am not sure what Apple has to do with the topic of this conversation.

            If I had been the lawyer for the affected farmers, I would have asked Apple what business it was of theirs what happens to farmers and their farm equipment. I would have made a big point of how suspicious it looked for Apple to send a lobbyist to such a non-Apple event.

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          • #2189303

            Oscar, that’s not what these farmers are up against – it’s not an inherently computer/software-related component. It’s more what you’d call a “hard part” – chunks of steel with chips embedded that don’t work (the tractor won’t recognize that the part has been replaced) without the factory tech using his mobile device to activate it.

            1970’s tractors are super-hot right now because a guy can fix one with spare parts on his own. That’s simply not an option with today’s equipment.

            I have a mid-sized Kubota (60 hp at the PTO) that has a turbo diesel and some other nifty options; it’s maybe five years old and too small for a big farm, but it’s one of the last of them that doesn’t require a factory tech to repair.

            This is a HUGE issue, it’s an unreasonable position taken by the manufacturer, and it’s not just bells & whistles sort of stuff like sat-guided planting and harvesting. It’s day-to-day farm operations with standard equipment.

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        • #2190924

          I believe a knowledgeable, experienced farmer could do just fine without all of the “help” that John Deere wants to give him. (That is, with an old-fashioned all-mechanical tractor.)

          We have a ‘75 Case Backhoe and recently had to replace the hydraulic pump. Jed ordered the part and in 6 hours the Hoe was up and running again. Old tractors, old cars, old Jeeps, old Ford trucks and a bunch of tools waiting for the next hands on fix it adventure. The only software on that backhoe beast is the seat cushion and it accommodates for more work and very little downtime until the job is done.

          MacOS iPadOS and sometimes SOS

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    • #2189311

      jabeattyauditor and MrJimPhelps: Thanks for clarifying the question of the tractors having to be “turned on” initially and then taken care only by those John Deere designates for the job.

      This reminds me of the issue of farmers not allowed to use as seed corn for the next planting season some of the grain they harvest from crops grown from Monsanto’s, or some such agribusiness company’s seeds. So farmers can have it pretty rough, I would say.

      Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

      MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
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    • #2190917

      Tesla is forcing their customers to go to a Tesla dealer for repairs – they aren’t giving software access to non-Tesla mechanics:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytkUk5SK8IE

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      • #2190923

        I doubt that Tesla cars will become so much of a people’s car as to leave mechanics, good ones, at any rate, without work and force them to, literally, close down shop. I am not inclined to buy, am not in the market for, etc. cars that cost  40 K – 50 K. But I am a regular paying customer of my good mechanic’s garage, that I visit every year (with my car) for regular maintenance (of said car). I suspect I am not the only one who has a similar outlook on cars in general and Tesla cars in particular. Or on good mechanics.

        And, as someone here might still remember, my present car is only a 30 year-old compact Geo Prizm (a.k.a. my Crypto Toyota Corolla, assembled in the USA by GM from Toyota parts imported from Japan). This is the same compact I have been driving for the past three decades.

        So I have reasons to suspect that I don’t belong in Mr. Elon Reeve Musk’s target demographic.

        Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

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      • #2190926

        Its going to be tough for a while… because there is a push for manufacturers to lock up their equipment/cars with proprietary software… sales people hate me, because I ask those kinds of questions, along with how it is updated, and how it is protected from hacking, and what does the company provide in the way of an ‘off’ for data being collected and used. Haven’t found a new car that meets my standards, yet… so we just keep maintaining the old one. Found that sales people know more about the audio systems than they do how the car’s computing module works… at least that is what they keep trying to sell me on. Sad.

        The Right to Repair is a Big Deal! So is keeping a vehicle spy-ware free!

        Non-techy Win 10 Pro and Linux Mint experimenter

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    • #2190919

      I have a mid-sized Kubota (60 hp at the PTO) that has a turbo diesel and some other nifty options; it’s maybe five years old and too small for a big farm, but it’s one of the last of them that doesn’t require a factory tech to repair. This is a HUGE issue, it’s an unreasonable position taken by the manufacturer, and it’s not just bells & whistles sort of stuff like sat-guided planting and harvesting. It’s day-to-day farm operations with standard equipment.

      Hello all. When I had my planet-wide Blue Planet Almanac talk show, I interviewed and became friends with Eric Herm, an organic cotton farmer. These days Eric runs Allred Farms. Eric’s a very good guy with a family and I’ve sat over drinks with him. He’s an author of a couple of books you could look up. I don’t know what sort of farm equipment he’s running these days.

      It was after Eric’s publisher found me and guested on my show that I looked around and noticed another especially interesting guy, Marcin Jacubowski. A 4 minute clip from his TED talk is shown at Marcin’s Open Source Ecology web page along with his Global Village Construction Set.

      Open Source Ecology provides blueprints for open source farm equipment you might find interesting and/or useful which he describes as “industrial productivity on a small scale”. Cool, huh?

      And thus some people won’t need John Deere or other farm equipment manufacturers.

      Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

      • This reply was modified 4 years, 12 months ago by Mr. Austin.
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