Countdown to End7: Win10 nudges Win7 out of first place, becomes most-used internet platform by a smidgen

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Ya’ll know that I don’t trust the statistics from any of the major “network usage” measurement companies. They all rely on arbitrary definitions, samp
[See the full post at: Countdown to End7: Win10 nudges Win7 out of first place, becomes most-used internet platform by a smidgen]

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ch100, Myst, abbodi86, Elly

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So macOS usage has declined over the last 3 months, cause, Mojave (10.14) released in September and the logical move for MacOS users is to upgrade from High Sierra (10.13) to Mojave (10.14) BUT, the MacOS figures are based on 10.13!
Surely a more accurate figure would be ALL macOS versions..Skewed rubbish, Mark Twain all over again.
FWIW: Nice to see W8.1 showing sustainability 😉
even though I’ve done a few upgrades from W10 to W8.1 over the last couple of months

If debian is good enough for NASA...

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Myst, abbodi86, OscarCP, Karlston

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I’m on 10.14.2 on all my machines, so I’m not counted in the stats! 🙂 🙂

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Microfix

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The detailed stats on the site include all of the macOS versions. Those are just the four most common versions of all of the many versions of “desktop/laptop” software.

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Microfix

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Thanks @Woody but, my point was that W10 had/has versions from 1507 to 1809 and macOS has versions from 10.12 (sierra) to 10.14 (Mojave) and should be represented in the same manner as W10 all versions under an OS brand, thus giving macOS a 7.52% share.
Note: ‘OSX’ was dropped by apple in favor of ‘macOS’ from Sierra (10.12)

If debian is good enough for NASA...

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An interesting detail about macOS is that no version ever exceeds about 65% usage before the next version comes out.  It wasn’t always like this, but over the last five releases or so, the upgrade rate has fallen.

My view on it is that the last few releases haven’t really offered anything that gets people scrambling to upgrade.  Dark Mode is probably the most compelling thing to come along in a while.  My own observations of Mac users I work with is that people are just skipping entire releases.  Not much different than what a lot of people are doing with Windows 10.

Mojave, of course, has its own built-in reason for why adoption won’t be extremely high either: It doesn’t work on older Macs, even the really good ones like the 2011 iMac Core i7, which is still faster than today’s entry-level Macbook Pro.

 

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Myst, AlexEiffel

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I’m still on El Cap 10.11.6. Been looking and thinking and considering what I would lose going with Mojave. El Cap wins. A good AV and secure browser on a wing and a prayer from here on out.

MacOS iPadOS and sometimes SOS

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Funny how Windows 8.1 is by far the most stable Windows version, yet is currently in last place in Windows user share. There should be an option to buy licenses for Windows 8.1 on the Microsoft website and a mega mod pack which adds Classic Shell, Windows Aero, Windows 7 theme, etc.

I am no longer an active member of the forums.

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abbodi86, Elly, Karlston, Charlie

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It’d be interesting to see a write-up about

A) How to upgrade from Win7 to 8.1 and get a valid license

B) What to install on 8.1 as soon as you’re there.

If anybody here is interested in writing it, I’d LOVE to make that an AKB article.

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Grond, cesmart4125, OscarCP, Nibbled To Death By Ducks, wdburt1, jburk07, Kranium, Karlston

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8.1 evangelist here 🙂

IMO, 8.1 would have been installed more if it hadn’t been so (unfairly) tarnished by 8 and its two main reasons to avoid it…

1. Booted up in tile-infested tablet mode on all devices, even mouse/keyboard driven ones. One of those what-was-Microsoft-thinking moments.

2. No Start Menu.

Both of these were fixed in 8.1, though the Start Menu Microsoft added was tile-infested.

Third-party products can change the rock-solid stable 8.1 into a nearly-7-UI for a handful of dollars. Stardock’s Object Desktop for the discounted $US19.95 per year is a bargain for Start8, WindowBlinds 8, Fences 3, and much more. Each module can be installed on up to 5 devices.

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

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Microfix, abbodi86

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I’m suspect of the stats as well, but I bet it turns out that Win 7 at 36% when EOL arrives is an optimistic low for Win 10 lovers.

I suspect the current numbers will stay fairly stable right up to EOL with only the smallest of ticks downward for existing Win 7 users forced to migrate to Win 10.  What you are seeing now is the installed based of Win 7 users with no intention of moving to Win 10 until they no longer have any choice.  And that won’t happen till quite some time past Jan 2020.

This will probably be an interesting battle between Microsoft’s self-perceived strength in the marketplace versus a very determined, motivated, and p***d off anti-Win 10 crowd.  I find myself unwilling to yield until Win 7 simply functions no more.  I stopped windows updates in late 2017 and the stability and reliability of our Win 7 boxes stand in stark comparison to all the hassles we have with the handful of Win 10 computers we have been forced to use.

To cut down on the retraining of productive users, we waste quite a bit of extra time having to load many 3rd party applications to add standard functionality back, and then remove/reconfigure lots of Win 10 garbage to make the computer usable.  But even so,  user feedback is not positive.  Who designed this interface anyway?  1 pixel borders, gray lettering on white backgrounds, everything flat, etc, etc.  Probably someone who only had the 8 color box of crayola crayons as a kid and is color blind as well.

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Myst, Nibbled To Death By Ducks, wdburt1, Elly, AlexEiffel, Seff, Charlie, lanceboil

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/yawn, still has nothing that I want, and a LOT that I don’t want.

Ain’t budging, nope. Happy with 7. My computer works when I switch it on, barely any maintenance, does what it wants to, doesn’t go doing anything I don’t want it to.

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David F, Myst, Nibbled To Death By Ducks, Kranium, Elly, Seff, Charlie, Cybertooth

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Regarding those who are pinning their hopes on Windows 8.1, I don’t think it’s going to be really viable for much longer in a dynamic environment, long before its official EOL. I say this as someone who is currently running 8.1 Pro on a desktop and laptop as my primary OS and am completely satisfied with it. But:

(1)  Major third-party applications likely will drop support for 8.1 well before its EOL. I think that Google Chrome is a good example of this. I’d posit that it’s more important to have your browser fully-patched and up-to-date than your OS. Chrome supported XP well after its EOL, but when it finally did end support (April 2016), it ended support for Vista at the exact same time–at a time when Vista was still supported by Microsoft. Vista’s market share was so low that Google jumped right from XP being the oldest-supported to 7. And Google’s behavior was the rule, not the exception. Given 8.1’s market share, it seems probable that 8.1 will have support dropped in the same manner as Vista.

(2)  Already, Microsoft is supporting 8.1 in name only. Yes, it’s pushing out the patches. But they’ve already been caught dealing with security vulnerabilities that exist in 7 & 8.1 & 10 and only applying a fix to 10, until they got called out on it. Meanwhile, I have a friend who’s a gamer and got a new Xbox controller and it has drivers only for Windows 10. Microsoft also has permanently stopped approving new Store apps for Windows 8.1 (pre-existing apps can still be updated). Yes, I don’t use the Store either. But my point is that MS is not going to be giving 8.1 any more love than it legally has to between now and 2023 and this will increasingly cause issues in unanticipated ways.

Personally, I’ve installed 10 on partitions which I’m not allowing to connect to the internet, and am taking my time to thoroughly understand, defang and customize it before it will be allowed to connect.

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Wheel_D, jburk07, ch100, AlexEiffel

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I share your view about the future of 8.1.

Adobe dropped Vista support for Reader before XP was EOL because market share was low.

8.1 will be an anomaly when 7 is out of support. It is too different from where Microsoft will be and it probably won’t receive the love it deserves. Too bad because it is great once tuned a bit, but I don’t see a future for it. Expect also maybe more companies to receive incentives to push store version of their apps once 7 is out.

 

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jburk07, ch100, abbodi86

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I have to agree.

I’ve mentioned it before in this thread and I starting to believe it is becoming more certain than before.

https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/april-windows-10-share-down-windows-7-up/

“My personal gut feeling based on nothing but a hunch, is that when 2020 rolls around, Microsoft is going to take the gloves off and get down right vicious about getting people to upgrade to W10.

Possibly deactivating and bricking “out of support OS’s”, for your own good of course…

Leaning hard on software and hardware companies to NOT support anything but W10.  Even if they have to outright buy said companies.

The sky is the limit…”

Sadly I’m starting to think W8.1 will be included in this.  Microsoft already showed their intent when they blocked 8.1 installs on newer hardware before main stream support ended.  I’m sure there was a room full of lawyers discussing the possible blowback from such a move and any potential legal costs.  Then decided the market share was low enough that it was an acceptable risk.

The market proved them right…

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Another way they can obstruct Win7 is stop activating new/re installs. If you have to do so for any reason (HDD crash, computer crash) they do not have to activate the install. Also, the updates from your SP1 disk to the present may not be available in Windows Update or the Catalog.

So, its time to create your images and safely stash them away in that event.

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AlexEiffel, SueW, Microfix

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That is why I am creating VMs with some of my retail copies of 7, some patched to December 2017, some fully patched. It might be useful to be able to use those offline…

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When you go from windows 7 to 10 and some programs don’t work it’s just disappointing 🙁  Can’t see much upside myself.

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I upgraded about 15 machines from 7 to 10 (1803) last week. Two of them run 10 on new laptops so they were ready for their desktops to be close to the same. The others were younger employees of companies I maintain. Figured I’d get them used to it so they can help the older employees cope when the time comes 🙂

Have to say the upgrades went surprisingly well even doing them from a remote connection. Only bug noticed so far was duplicate user folders on a system with redirected folders but was easy enough to deal with.

Fresh installed and upgraded some of our machines around here to 1803 a few weeks back. Not because I like it, but working full time in a system reveals more than the limited time I get to play with VMs.

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Did you check the system logs of those upgraded machines, some nasty surprises might be hidden there… 😉

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I have an HP ProBook that shipped with a Windows 8 Pro license but was pre-downgraded to Windows 7 Pro by HP. The factory downgrade to Windows 7 Pro, via Windows 8 Pro’s downgrade rights, is one reason that I rushed out to purchased the Ivy Bridge based HP ProBook, that and it came with a discrete AMD mobile GPU. At the time Windows 8 was still the latest Microsoft OS(I did not want Win 8 at all, so the Win 8 Pro downgrade rights still allowed me to use Windows 7 Pro) and Windows 8 was what was shipped on most new consumer laptops at that time. I prefer Busness Grade laptops as the build quality and the support is longer (Hardware/Firmware, Driver, and Software Support) on Business Grade laptops than on consumer grade laptops! That and Business grade laptops get the Pro version of Windows as Standard.

My question to Woody is this: The laptop shipped with both widows 7 Pro and windows 8 Pro recovery DVDs and will it be possible to install Windows 8 Pro from the recovery DVD and have the Windows 8 upgrade itself to Windows 8.1 after Jan 2020?

I do have the rights to windows 8 Pro on the Probook as the device is licensed for Windows 8 Pro. So I’m hoping that once I install windows 8 Pro that I will then be able to upgrade to windows 8.1 Pro and continue to use Windows 8.1 until 2023, with some added Start 8 UI software to make the windows 8.1 UI look and act more like windows 7.

The laptop’s discrete mobile AMD GPU is not likely to have driver support under Windows 10 owing to the Fact that the GPU is of a Older AMD TeraScale GPU micro-arch that predates AMD’s switch to its Newer GCN(Graphics Core  Next) GPU Micro-arch variants biginning in 2011. So My AMD TeraScale Micro-Arch based GPU/Graphics is about 6 generations behind and no longer actively supported.

My only choice is to Install the Windows 8 Pro image from the Recovery DVD as the HP ProBook’s AMD GPU Graphics Drivers are on the Window 8 Pro Recovery DVD Image that HP created! So hopefully Windows Update will automatically ask me to Upgrade in place to Windows 8.1 once it detects that I’m using Windows 8 Pro.

I’m not one of the Enterprise/Volume Licensees that has the Option of Purchasing Extended Windows 7 support until 2023. So I’ll have to Install windows 8 Pro on the laptop and have it upgrade in place to Windows 8.1 Pro as windows 8 has been depreciated by Microsoft in favor of Winows 8.1.

I hope this will work but I’m not sure how things may work out after 2020 and any activation of Windows 8 Pro may be problematic.

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One possibility is to purchase a new HDD/SSD and install the Win8 from the Recovery Disks on it. You can try the upgrade to Win8.1, I would guess through Windows Update. If it works, you are good to go. If not, the only thing you are out is the price of the HDD/SSD.

I have installed Win8 from a retail disk and updated it all the way within the last year. Had no problem.

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jburk07, Karlston

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According to some graphs such as the one shown in this article, Windows 10 has after 3 years finally surpassed Win 7 by a small margin in overall use if this is accurate.  Use is one thing, but popularity is quite another.  Win 10 with all its harebrained malarkey has been forced on many people who didn’t want it, and still don’t.

Being 20 something in the 70's was far more fun than being 70 something in the insane 20's

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Karlston, Cybertooth, Nibbled To Death By Ducks, wdburt1, Kranium

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I have a laptop with windows 7.  When Microsoft stops supporting  Windows 7 next year does anyone know if they will offer a free upgade to window 10?

I wouldn t want to upgrade to Window  10 until I had  to next year

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No, and in my opinion it wouldn’t be an upgrade.

Being 20 something in the 70's was far more fun than being 70 something in the insane 20's

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As far as I know Windows 10 can still be activated using your existing Windows 7 product key. Trick here is to get/buy another HDD or SSD and remove the existing storage device from your laptop then insert the new storage device and install W10 fresh on the laptop and activate online.
Then swap back the storage to your Windows 7 HDD or SSD and keep Windows 10 for later. Once you have a digital license for the laptop, it’s future proof until it pops.

If debian is good enough for NASA...

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Karlston, BobbyB

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It looks like we are getting to the time when us Windows 7 users may have to dig down in our pockets and come up with the money to buy a new computer with Windows 10 installed.

Its ether that or go with a new computer with apple.

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? says:
…or run a FREE Linux distro?

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Charlie

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Why? I have 10 running on some 10-15 year old machines and it is doing fine.

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377 days…

I better start learning to use Linux.

End7 = EndWindows.

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Charlie, johnf, Kranium

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sudo apt-get newOS?
Why not just run Linux as a host and a fully patched Win7 as a guest in a VM, then you have the option to disconnect Win7 from the internet completely and still use it beyond EOL for programs needed.
By that time, end users will be at an intermediate level in using linux if done soon.

If debian is good enough for NASA...

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jburk07, wdburt1

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Would it (if I understand you correctly) mean accessing the Internet from the VM still through the no longer patched and, so, increasingly more vulnerable Windows 7, the PC’s “bare metal” OS? Or could a VM be installed actually on “bare metal”, and how?

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

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Microfix wrote:

Why not just run Linux as a host

the host is the OS that is installed on the bare-metal machine, ie, Linux is OS installed on bare metal.

Microfix wrote:

fully patched Win7 as a guest in a VM

The guest is installed in a “container” or VM within the host (Linux) OS. It does not have to have access to the Internet through the host. The VM is not installed on bare metal.

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Karlston, Microfix

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PKCano: “The guest is installed in a “container” or VM within the host (Linux) OS. It does not have to have access to the Internet through the host. ”

I think the above comment was not directed to my question, that actually was, rephrased, “what if one does not want to use Windows 7 to access the Internet after EOL, and do it instead using another OS that is still being updated and has been installed on a VM?” I asked this, because Microfix seemed to be saying that you can do that without connecting to the Internet through Windows 7. I seem to recall that someone here (you?) wrote sometime ago that such thing is not possible; but maybe am remembering this incorrectly. Thanks.

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

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Microfix is saying that Linux is the host (bare metal OS) and Win7 is the guest (in the VM) and a fully patched Win7 can be disconnected from the Internet (in the VM) and continue to be used after EOL.

He is not talking about Win7 being installed as the bare metal OS or the VM being installed on bare metal.

If you install Win7 as the bare metal OS (host) and Linux as the guest (in the VM) (this is the opposite of what Microfix is saying), then block The host (Win7) from the Internet, you also block the guest (Linux) in the VM from the Internet because they use shared Internet connections.

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wdburt1, Microfix, OscarCP

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The simpler way to do this is not use a VM, but do a dual boot (With both Linux and Windows installed, preferably on separate hard drives). You can then disable internet access in Windows, while keeping it in Linux (you still should be able to copy files over that you’ve downloaded from the intranet in Linux to your windows partition, just make sure you have something like Clam anti-virus to scan them before you do that.).

Most distros have instructions on how to setup dual boot (or their forums have the info).

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wdburt1

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That is how I run W10 (Linux Mint Host, W10 Pro 1703 VM Guest on Vmware Player).

The W10 VM has run flawlessly, since I blocked/disconnected it from our network (i.e. MS can’t get in and smash it up).

-lehnerus2000

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Microfix

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It is not just software eventually becoming incompatible with Windows 7, it is also peripherals such as printers, dvd, blu ray players, etc. My experience with a series of well-known brand-name ink-jet printers is that they have lasted, on average, some four years before breaking down to the point where buying a new one was the most practical option.

As to Macs OS updates: several people I know stay on the same version until it is close of no longer being supported, and I suspect that may not be unusual for Mac owners.

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

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Myst

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Oscar, my MacAir is running El Cap at 10.11.6 and I can operate with all my peripherals and added Adobe programs perfectly. Adobe is a 32bit so the program wouldn’t play well in the box with Mojave. Anyway, I’ll suit her up with a good AV and secure browser and forget about an upgrade to Mojave. I’ve always been one to upgrade for security fixes, but lately the latter is a fix in need of fixing on a PC/Mac/ios device. Apple is no longer supporting my MacOS, and Norton has recently shut its doors on El Cap since the release of Mojave. There are reliable sources out there, either way, it’s a gamble, I’ll take my chances.

MacOS iPadOS and sometimes SOS

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WG, Good luck, hope that works for you. I have been thinking of upgrading from Sierra to High Sierra after NASA finally approved a move of its Macs to HS, which is mildly reassuring, but now I thinking maybe I’ll wait a bit longer and upgrade to Mojave directly, then re-install or replace any applications that stop running after the changeover. That will buy me almost another two an a half years before I have to start to think about this seriously again. By then the world could be much the same, or considerably different. If the latter, maybe even different for the better — at least as far as MacOS upgrading is concerned… Will see.

Anyhow, I think we’ve abused enough this poor thread with talk about Macs. Hope no MVP will agree too strongly.

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

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Myst

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Where do you get Linux and can you just download it to your existing Windows 7 laptop?

Perhaps Woody can comment on this as to what he thinks would be the benefits and problems.

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The answers to this would be off-topic in the thread about Windows. Please create a Topic in the Linux for Windows wonks Forum and ask any questions you have about Linux.

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SueW

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See this Topic on How to get Linux. Thanks @? says

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SueW, Microfix, woody

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Only took W10 3 years, 5 months, and 4 days to finally slightly surpass W7 with only a year of support left for it.

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Seff, Karlston, cesmart4125, OscarCP

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A lot can happen in a year….a march on Redmond by irate 7 users?

A CEO resignation? A change in company direction out of the blue? (It could happen.)

An independent company stepping up to the plate for non-corporate users, offering  7 support for a reasonable fee?

As for me, they’ll have to pry 7 out of my cold, dead PC before I install 10…I may go Linux dual-boot.

Another thing: Has anyone thought about the millions of seniors on fixed incomes, and low-income households who can’t afford to buy new gear or OS’s? Maybe the Linux camp is going to be greater than thought.

A year is a long time…and not even the wisest of us can see all ends.  <\:>>>

A good New Year To All, and Happy 9th day of Xmas. 🙂

Win7 Pro SP1 64-bit, Dell Latitude E6330, Intel CORE i5 "Ivy Bridge", 12GB RAM, Group "0Patch", Multiple Air-Gapped backup drives in different locations. Linux Mint Greenhorn
--
"The more kinks you put in the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the pipes." -Scotty

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Karlston, SueW, jburk07

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Windows 10 isn’t nearly as bad as you think it is.  But hey, whatever, if you’re going to refuse to stay with Windows in the long term, switch to Linux today and never look back.  There’s no sense in being angry about it for years on end.

Ubtuntu 18.04 LTS is awesome, seriously, and you’ll get five, count’em, FIVE whole years of security updates without having to upgrade anything to newer versions……

I really don’t get the argument about “people who can’t afford to upgrade”.  Support lifecycles have been a part of the computing industry since the beginning of the 1980s.  All those folks who bought a Mac Performa 630CD or an LC 575 in late 1994, didn’t have a viable path forward after 1998 because Apple dropped support for 68040 chips in Mac OS 8.5.

On the PC side, a lot of people had to get over the same hump when their 80486SX just wasn’t good enough to run Windows 98.

Heck, I’ve got an original Intel iMac in storage — very nice computer for its time, but completely unusable as an everyday productivity machine today.  Not after you’ve had a taste of modern 8-core, 4ghz living.

Edited to remove HTML

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Well, that’s just the thing– how good or bad Windows 10 is, of course, is in the eye of the beholder.  It’s pretty solid at the core, and if MS would just stop with WaaS and develop/deliver Windows 10 as they have other versions of Windows, it could really be decent.  Had they done that, they might not have had to force the issue so many times to get to the point of being the most “popular” desktop OS after three and a half years (by the same metric, the Spanish flu was the most popular infectious disease in 1918).

Ubuntu, FWIW, has recently increased their support period to ten years on LTS versions.

 

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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AlexEiffel, Karlston, jburk07, David F, OscarCP

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My impression (and that’s all it might be) is that it used to be easier to stay on an old OS for a longer amount of time. I managed to stay just fine on MS-DOS on an 8086 machine until 1995 when I bought a Windows 3.1 box, then used that for work for seven years. At least when it comes to what software is supported on what hardware, the forced march pace of innovation seems to have quickened in the last decade or so.

 

Keep Running Windows 7 Safely for Years to Come  
Make Windows 10 look and work like Windows 7

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Ascaris, Myst, jburk07

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When I went from Win 3.1 to Win 95, that was a real improvement.  When I went from Win 98 SE to Win XP Pro, that was another big improvement.  When I got Win 7 on a new, more powerful computer, with lots of ram & HD space, it was an improvement security wise, but I still liked Win XP better.  Win 7 grew on me and I now like it as much as XP.

From that point though, with the onslaught of Win 8, nothing MS has done in the way of OS’es has impressed me.  Yeah, maybe they’re more secure (that topic is still debatable) but they look like c**p and I seem to hear more complaints about Win 10 than any others even though it’s MS’s flagship.

Being 20 something in the 70's was far more fun than being 70 something in the insane 20's

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wdburt1, Myst, Cybertooth

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I am using a 2009 HP 6000 series PC with 1TB HHD,6GB Ram and Win 7 SP1 Home Premium with NO SPYWARE on it .  WIN 10 is absolutely loaded with spyware (just about every update).  One cannot avoid them and the Gov’t being live in your domain. Us old persons can’t always learn new tricks so we will loose out.

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BrianL wrote:

WIN 10 is absolutely loaded with spyware (just about every update).

I’ve never seen any spyware on Windows 10.

“Telemetry is not a four-letter word.

You wouldn’t know that to listen to the relentless hammering of the technology by Windows 10 critics, who see it as a form of “spying” on the part of Microsoft. Unfortunately, many of those critics have used unreliable data , compounded by a misunderstanding of the basic technology, to form their opinions.”

Windows 10 telemetry secrets: Where, when, and why Microsoft collects your data

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Yup, three and a half years for a free upgrade to just about overtake a 9 year old product.

One can only begin to imagine how much longer it would have taken if Windows 10 had been sold in boxes rather than being “offered” (with one arm twisted behind the user’s back) as a free download, and/or purchasers of new machines had been offered a simple choice between the two systems.

The strangest thing of all is that all this palaver has been inflicted on their own customers, it’s not like MS have been trying to entice another company’s customers away, they’ve just seemed [intent] on alienating their own supporters.

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Charlie, Myst, Karlston

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Seff wrote:

One can only begin to imagine how much longer it would have taken if … purchasers of new machines had been offered a simple choice between the two systems.

They were:

Should I order a computer with Windows 10 or Windows 7?

Windows 10 Pro pre-installed on a new computer still comes with Downgrade Rights to 7/8.1 as it always has done:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/Useterms_OEM_Windows_10_English.htm

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That’s not what I would call a simple choice.  Most people are never going to install their own OS; if the machine came with Windows 10 Pro on it, then as far as they are concerned, that’s that.  Many of us here think nothing of changing an OS or other similar things, but as Oscar once told me, to a lot of people, such things seem like black magic.

If the machine is Kaby Lake or newer, downgrade rights don’t mean it’s actually going to work with 8.1 or 7.  These users don’t really have a choice, even if they bought a PC with Windows 10 Pro on it… which most do not when one is talking about the consumer sector.

To me, a “simple choice” would be being able to go to Wal-Mart and pick up a box with a PC inside that already has Windows 7 or 8.1 on it.  Part of having that choice would be not having Microsoft trying so hard to make 7 or 8.1 unworkable.  Let the users decide what’s better based on the merit of the products, just as they did when they had the choice between XP and Vista.

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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Cybertooth, Lars220, Charlie, wdburt1, Seff

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Hopefully people will realize how stable Windows 8.1 is and when Windows 7 retires, then perhaps the user share for Windows 8.1 will increase exponentially. We need to spread the message on social media, such as Facebook and Twitter, while looking for a source to buy legit Windows 8.1 keys without pirating.

For people with Intel 7th-gen or AMD Ryzen CPUs, unfortunately Linux is the only way out of Windows 10.

I am no longer an active member of the forums.

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Karlston

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Unfortunately finding a legit copy of W8.1 reasonably priced has gotten to be a real challenge.  It has been pointed out numerous times on this forum, primarily from PKCano.

It mirrors what I have seen.  18 months ago sealed legit copies of 8.1 were dime a dozen, and cheap.  Micro Center had stacks OEM licenses in there locked glass cases.  Not anymore.

Both Amazon and eBay have mostly sketchy sellers offering who knows what.

Bootleg copies, cracked versions, sellers redirecting to a G drive account to download the “iso”…  Neither retailer seams motivated to clean that mess out either.

When you do find a sealed legit copy, it priced like it is made of gold.

W7 and W8.1 can be installed on a 7th gen Intel processor.  Our CNC programming room where I work has just such a machine.

 

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Finding Windows 8/8.1 to install on PC’s is like looking for the ”teeth of the hydra’ ref: Marc Bolan & T Rex – Get it on.( and get 10 off)
Don’t be fooled by claims they are legit on the auction sites and the likes, you’ll only be disappointed.
I installed my last licensed W8.1 over the festive holidays, had bought a few around the introduction of Windows 10 back in 2015.
Most of these installs have been from W7 to W10 (forced and unforced) back to W8.1 Needless to say, they are all happy with the end result..but for how long?

If debian is good enough for NASA...

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jburk07

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Bootleg, cracked, and pirated copies are unfortunately unsafe because Microsoft will not issue security updates on non-genuine software. Sites like Kinguin offer Windows 7, 8.1, and 10 for dirt cheap, yet it’s against Microsoft’s ToS and those keys may be deactivated after a period of time. I would not trust the grey markets when it comes to that kind of stuff. I was at my local Sam’s Club a few months ago and found a couple of copies of Windows 8.1 Pro for $200 sitting in the computer section. You might find a DVD copy if you look hard enough.

I am no longer an active member of the forums.

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SueW

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banzaigtv wrote:

Bootleg, cracked, and pirated copies are unfortunately unsafe because Microsoft will not issue security updates on non-genuine software.

That was true during the XP and Vista days, if I recall, but with 7 and beyond, it will not prevent the installation of critical security updates.  It will prevent the installation of optional updates, but if you follow the advice offered here, you’re not installing those anyway.

That’s not to say it’s a good idea to use questionable keys, just that this particular thing won’t be a problem.  It will still be annoying in nagging you and refusing to let you personalize anything, stuff like that… you will have to obtain a valid license key and go to the Windows Activation dialog and enter it to stop the nagging.

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
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Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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Will askwoody continue to report on security exploits even after support for 7 ends? I don’t think it will be cracked straight away and I really don’t want to “upgrade” to 10 and lose the support of some features I use, not to mention that my netbook does not support win10

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Charlie

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Absolutely. We’re 7-friendly in these parts.

There’s a significant chunk of our readership that will always run 7. With “always” being somewhat qualified….

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Lars220, Myst, OscarCP, Karlston, Charlie, SueW, Cybertooth, TheSuffering

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Measured by other “counters” 10 overtook 7 some time ago. In the end, only Microsoft knows for sure. Even then it depends on what numbers they want to disclose – licenses, installations, activations, usage. Not to mention type of device.

It is unlikely that Microsoft will extend the Windows 7 expiration date unless a significant number of enterprise users demand it. Even if it were extended there will be a “drop dead” date. Windows 7 will continue to run. It will be up to the user to ensure safety. Don’t forget that peripheral vendors will stop producing Win7 drivers. A user will have to be sure to check when buying new hardware.

IMO, right now only those with specialized hardware or software should be concerned about Windows 10. If you have a Windows 7 machine and want to test 10, get a new cheap drive, install 7, upgrade to 10 (last I saw you can still get a free upgrade), change any update or privacy settings you desire (they are well documented and there are 3rd party utilities to help), test your hardware and software. If you don’t want to stick with 10 switch the drives back until 7 is out of support.

I’ve been running Insider Builds of 10 since the first release. I know the risks but am willing to take them. I’ve had only a couple of crashes. And only a couple of flakey builds and I’ve installed every Insider Build. The other Win10 machines I support (family, friends, and work) have been very solid. No crashes, no update problems.

--Joe

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Microsoft has already offered Enterprise/Volume licensee customers the option of purchasing extended Windows 7 Security Updates until 2023. And this is because Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 are very similar under the hood. The only differences are mostly 8.1’s UI  with that TIFKAM tacked on top. So for the most part what bugs that Microsoft finds/fixes in 8.1 will back port over to 7 also.

So that leaves some folks that Purchased Business Class laptops that came with windows 8 Pro, but allowed the OEMs/End Users downgarde rights to Windows 7 Pro with some options come 2020 and 7’s EOL. There are millions of Ivy Bridge era Business Laptops from HP/Dell/others that shipped with Windows 8 Pro licenses on their laptops but the Laptop’s OEM took the Windows 7 Pro downgrade option and shipped the laptop with Windows 7 Pro installed.

So unpopular was Windows 8 that for business laptop customers their Laptops shipped with both Windows 7 Pro and Windows 8 Pro recovery DVDs,  and the Laptops where factory downgraded to Windows 7 Pro via Windows 8 Pro’s downgrade rights! My Intel Ivy Bridge based HP probook shipped that way and I’m probebly installing windows 8 and then upgrading in place to 8.1 because my laptop’s AMD discrete mobile GPU is too old to have any compatable windows 10 drivers.

And any foolishness on Intel’s part about my 8 to 8.1 licensing rights can be settled in small claims court because just because windows 8 has been depreciated by Microsoft in favor of Windows 8.1, nevertheless, Microsoft’s Windows 8 extended support deadline does not end until 2023. So that includes my right to recieve an in place upgrade to Windows 8.1. at any time up unil 2023. My HP ProBook shipped with a windows 8 Pro license with Windows 7 Pro downgrade rights.

I’ll have to install windows 8 from the recovery DVD because My probook’s Discrete Mobile AMD GPU requires the specific AMD/HP OEM Graphics  drivers that are on that Windows 8 Pro recovery DVD.

I do Know this there are millions of Business Grade laptops with Windows 8 Pro licenses that shipped from their OEM’s with that Windows 7 Pro downgrade option taken and there will be millions of Laptops that may be running Windows 7 Pro but came with Windows 8 Pro licenses and the Windows 7 Pro downgrade option taken at the Factory by the laptop’s OEM. The Laptop OEMs would not have been able to make a sale without that Windows 8 Pro downgrade option to Windows 7 Pro  because Windows 8/TIFKAM was such a trainwreck at the time.

 

 

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TheSuffering wrote:

Will askwoody continue to report on security exploits even after support for 7 ends? I don’t think it will be cracked straight away and I really don’t want to “upgrade” to 10 and lose the support of some features I use, not to mention that my netbook does not support win10

A quick note about when Windows 7 will be “cracked:”

Windows has always shared a good portion of its code base across all versions. When XP went end-of-life, the bad guys took advantage of this. How? They just looked at what was being patched on the newer versions, then attacked that area on the now-unsupported OS.

The same thing will happen with Windows 7, and three years later, with Windows 8.1.

Launder, rinse, repeat.

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OscarCP

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IMO it has come down to the fact that people will eventually, if not sooner, have to keep a computer they like for pleasure, and a Unix, Linux, or Mac computer to attach to the deadly, dreaded web and Internet.

Being 20 something in the 70's was far more fun than being 70 something in the insane 20's

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wdburt1, Myst

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That’s the truth.

If I can transfer downloaded PDF and Office files from an internet-connected computer running Linux to an offline computer running Win7 (with antivirus software on both), then that works for me. Though I have Excel and Word installed on the internet machine, I seldom need to open files on it.

If for some reason I first need to transfer the files on the internet computer, then to the offline one, I can add an SSD with Linux to an existing Win7 machine connected to the internet, and per the suggestion made above, prevent the Win7 drive from connecting to the big bad world.

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A few experiences.

My unlicensed Win 1o 1803 I use for my TV computer rejected a Win 7 and Win 8 license I entered. Maybe it has to be done at install?

Win 8.1 is not supported on some new motherboards. It runs well until you try to update Win 8 and the ‘unsupported hardware message’ appears. After this I couldn’t update or install programs. I could have re-imaged but I conceded defeat; Win 10 in various guises now populates numerous devices.

You can get the pain out the way now, or delay it for the future. Win 10 will dominate as one day you will need some hardware to work, or software to install, and it just wont.

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hey woody & Susan (patch Lady) – happy new year 2019!

there was this article by Ed Bott of ZDNet written on 12/31/2018 – “Microsoft wish list: How to keep customers happy and make money in 2019”
https://www.zdnet.com/article/my-microsoft-wish-list-for-2019/

this should be a nice article to read from him 🙂

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Rocking W7 till 2023 till paid support ends… Still hoping M$ realises W10 is absolute **** and eventually releases a W11. Worst decision was making a global OS for both desktop and tablet/smartphones… Even though I hate Apple with all myself, I can’t stop saying at least they still have the decency to separate MacOS (desktop OS) from iOS (tablet/smartphone OS)… Also, it should be noted, that Microsoft Mobile was a giant flop and got abandoned, so there’s no reason anymore for M$ to have an OS designed for smartphone/tablets…

Rather than stupid tablet/smartphone OS, I hope Project Andromeda is really about the comeback of PDA and that an OS similar to Windows CE comes back so that you can run x86 programs on a mobile PC.

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Cybertooth

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anonymous wrote:

Rocking W7 till 2023 till paid support ends… Still hoping M$ realises W10 is absolute **** and eventually releases a W11. Worst decision was making a global OS for both desktop and tablet/smartphones…

If they didn’t realize their mistake with Windows 8, why do you think they’ll re-think anything with regard to Windows 10?

Btw, your company is paying for W7 support beyond 2020?

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I think there are a lot of folks that accidentally/were forced to upgraded from Win7 to 10 and didn’t know or were unwilling to take the time to go back to Win7 after the upgrade.  If you removed those folks from the data these #’s would look much different.

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Millions? If they were unwilling to revert they probably don’t care too much.

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