Any rumors of Windows Mail-like client for Windows 8?

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Have you heard any rumors of a different email client (or a second one in addition to the current one) for next windows version?

I keep hoping that MS will finally listen to the howls of power email and business email users and give us a new Windows Mail/Outlook Express for the next Windows (or even for the current one).

Has anyone heard any rumors about giving US what we need?

Thank you.

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Microsoft’s solution for “power email users and business email users” is Outlook. While Microsoft may reverse itself, it is unlikely that a mail client will be bundled with Windows 8. Windows Live Mail, which is part of Windows Live Essentials, is the free desktop client and is likely to remain the free client. It will probably be enhanced but WLE is on a different release schedule from Windows. That is on purpose so that, theoretically, various components of WLE can be updated more frequently than the rather long Windows release cycle.

Joe

--Joe

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Thank you for explaining that, Joe. Outlook doesnt work for me. If MS loves WLM so much, that’s fine with me – they can keep re-issuing forever. I want them to give us an alternative like Windows Mail or OE, without the cute picture frame options, “library” and all that stuff. Simple single inbox. Tabs so we can “preview” and “see source” More than once I have had to get into the source tab and force something to look different from the way it insists on displaying (usually beause I pasted a line or two of something that was composed on a mac and it won’t respond to my font size and color requests). I need this for record-keeping. My mail program is like the crossroads of my world – everything leads to and from it.

Thanks again and I’ll keep hoping someone out there has heard something!!!

I posted just because I keep hoping someone has heard a runor that they’ll do that.

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I’m hoping Windows 8 will have no email client whatsoever.
The place to keep an eye on would be Paul Thurrott’s Supersite for Windows.

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Why doesn’t Outlook work for you? Is it the expense of acquisition? Or some usage issue? Outlook is very powerful and comprehensive. Much more than just an e-mail client.

Joe

--Joe

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Hi Joe,
I have Outlook. I love Outlook Express/Windows Mail. I have about 25 GB, maybe more, of research and email stored in about 100 folders. Once every 6 months, I break up the folders that reached about 5,000 msgs. and drag to a new folder under the same name with a date range for the contents.

I have email “rules” set up over the years that sort out almot all spam and sort messages into folders if I want to and don’t want them all in the inbox. I keep my inbox clean, deleting about 50 or so emails a day (it varies). When neeed, I drag stuff out of my inbox to a more appropriate folder, keeping my inbox clean and efficient with just what I want in there and no more (which is why a library-style “compilation” inbox doesn’t work for me). I work so much in the email program, collecting information from sources that will later be compiled and used. It is simplicity personified. I don’t need all the “stuff” that Outlook opens (calendar, etc. ) I don’t work with groups of people in meetings or collaboration. It’s a great program for many things but not for me. I use Google Calendar extensively for everything I do and it’s perfect for me. I tried doing “tasks” with Outlook – took so much of my time I couldn’t get anything done.

I have been working this way since the 90s and I have honed it til it flies. My days are crammed full, and sometimes long into the night. I don’t have time for extra steps.

That was a long answer to a short question . Sorry!

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Have you heard any rumors of a different email client (or a second one in addition to the current one) for next windows version?

I keep hoping that MS will finally listen to the howls of power email and business email users and give us a new Windows Mail/Outlook Express for the next Windows (or even for the current one).

Has anyone heard any rumors about giving US what we need?

Thank you.

In Windows 8 developer Preview there is a Windows Mail folder in both program files (x86) and program files. This may mean nothing at all – since those folders were included in Windows 7. It doesn’t make any sense that they’d put that folders in Windows 8 — unless they are just leftovers from Windows 7. Developer Preview is very sparse – so perhaps we’ll all know more when Windows 8 Consumer Preview debuts on 2/29/2012. Microsoft would be doing every Windows laptop and desktop user a favor by including a good, free email client. Sure, you can download Windows Live Mail –and it’s free. But it’s not good. It’s one of the worst. But I don’t hold out much hope for Windows Mail. Microsoft wants you to use “Live Essentials”. If you need an email client that isn’t quirky, doesn’t crash, and doesn’t consume inordinate amounts of RAM — you’ll have to use something besides Windows Live Mail — Microsoft hopes yyyou’ll go buy MS Office and hence, Outlook.

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Yes, I agree! It was sad that Microsoft did a two fold, in my opinion, error with email. Windows Live Mail is not nearly as good as it’s predecessor, Outlook Express.

At the same time, Microsoft moved Outlook out of the Student and Home Office Edition of Microsoft Office forcing people to either stay with the old version, or buy it for nearly $80 as a separate single license.

I think these were unwise moves on Microsoft’s part.

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First post here for me

I tested Windows mail on Windows 8 Preview, worked splendidly. I followed the directions from here (it’s for Windows 7 but same goes for 8):
http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/5481-windows-mail.html
and have everything needed on disk now for future use.

Like DrWho I activate Windows Mail on systems I work on if the owners so wish.
XP still rocks! and I am very happy with it still and see no pressing need to change to 7 or, eventually, 8 until it’s time for a new system (possibly a slate of some kind).

Cheers,
Logger

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I can’t see why Calendars and Tasks is a reason not to use Outlook for Email if you already have it.

Bruce

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I too like OE and prefer it to Outlook or a web based email client. Outlook is overkill for home use and can become corrupted to a point where it is totally useless. Outlook is meant to access server based emails in a corporate environment. At least that was the intention. OE is nicer for the home user. Easier to manage, backup and recover. I use OE on my XP box and Thunderbird on my Windows 7 box. The only shortcoming I find in Thunderbird is you can’t switch users like OE. But that can be worked around if needed. From a functional view they are basically the same.

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I too like OE and prefer it to Outlook or a web based email client. Outlook is overkill for home use and can become corrupted to a point where it is totally useless. Outlook is meant to access server based emails in a corporate environment. At least that was the intention. OE is nicer for the home user. Easier to manage, backup and recover. I use OE on my XP box and Thunderbird on my Windows 7 box. The only shortcoming I find in Thunderbird is you can’t switch users like OE. But that can be worked around if needed. From a functional view they are basically the same.

I think if the OP wanted a non-native alternative, they would have asked for one.

-- rc primak

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Outlook is simply too much and definitely too slow, even on a fast machine, to be usable for a fast email check.
I don’t have Outlook open all the time at home.
Windows Live Mail is too slow either, after receiving a message it takes a long time for it to appear in the list.
Outlook Express was fast and easy and handled a large inbox without issues (most of the time anyway..)
Thunderbird is too “plastic” for my taste and is a bit slow too.
Can we have Outlook Express 8 please?

PeterW

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Larry – I have gone a month without settling on what to do for an email client since my hard drive crashed on my XP machine. I installed a new drive in the XP machine (new used one – it’s an old IDE drive so can’t buy a brand new one) but unfortunately that old computer from 2003 isn’t going to last forever so I have to make a decision. I appreciate the note about Thunderbird. There was something else about it that I didn’t care for but don’t recall what. I have it installed on another computer Win7 computer and I was considering it.

I have been trying to live with WLM 2011 email client, giving it a fair shot to see if I can find a way to cope with its weird exploded menus and things they took away (I use the horizontal line feature a lot and now I can’t convert it from grey to a color anymore – which used to be really helpful when I was ganging up stuff in one email and wanted clear simple separators).

I know I have to decide soon – the ISP reports my webmail box is nearly full.

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So, now that MS effectively Killed OE, where’s all that 3rd party software that the Euro’s were bellyakin’ about not being able to sell?
I’m sorry,,,,,,,,, I don’t see any!
I see that whole scenario as compared to a man being told to get out of his house so homeless beggars could live there. Cheeech!

In the early days of Win-7, I set up Windows Live Mail for one of my customers, and even though it Worked, it looked like sh** and he hated it.
The very setup time was at least four times longer and much harder than setting up OE6 which I can practically do blindfolded.
Or I can walk someone through it over the phone.

So I’m all in favor of the guy with the expertise to write an OE6 workalike.
Or, figure out how to force it to work on Win-7 and 8.

Like, I force Solitaire from XP to work on Win-7 & Win-8.
You just have to know what .dll file to migrate along with the .exe file.

Laters!
Doc

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It’s highly unlikely that MS will include a mail client in WIndow 8. MS removes the mail client for legal reason, not technological ones. The EU made them remove the mail client to allow competitors to have a fair advantage in the mail client arena. Since the EU hasn’t changed anything on this, you’ll have to download Live Mail or Thunderbird or what ever.

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It’s highly unlikely that MS will include a mail client in WIndow 8. MS removes the mail client for legal reason, not technological ones. The EU made them remove the mail client to allow competitors to have a fair advantage in the mail client arena. Since the EU hasn’t changed anything on this, you’ll have to download Live Mail or Thunderbird or what ever.

Before OE lovers turn to T’bird they should be warned that it too is a long way short of ideal: f’rinstance the simple objective of moving the big folder of stored mail from drive c: to drive f: recently gave me a sore head – seemingly because of the roundabout way T’bird looks for the place to store mail. Web-based and loosely-organised help written by generations of volunteers is the Achilles’ heel of all open-source software I’ve tried, and T’bird’s may be the worst.

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The office I worked in before I retired used Outlook on a professionally set up and maintained Exchange server, and I found it efficient and easy to use. However, on my home PC without the Exchange server I found it, as others have said, clunky and inefficient, and continued to use Messenger on a RISC PC.
I am now in the process of migrating everything off the RISC PC to my Windows machine (before the former dies), and Thunderbird is the best programme I have found for use on the Windows machine, it is free and being maintained. I do have issues with it, notably in composing HTML emails (which I have reluctantly adopted as they seem to have become standard) although it displays received ones without problem.

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I enjoy creating email stationery. When Outlook Express died, so did my enjoyment. WLM has corrupted OE on my computer I am running XP and until Windows give us back OE as an email client, I wont be upgrading my OS. on my new computer I removed Windows 7 and installed XP specifically to enjoy my hobby.

Yes, you can adapt to create stationery to be able used in the newer email clients, but it becomnes a tme consuming job and having to write scripts to accommoadte different email clients because the univeral OE has gone, has removed the enjoyment.

Like the original OP my life is in the OE folders and message rules. Life was so simple back then. Why oh why wont MS listen to what we the users would like?

Oh before the gurus declare open season on me, some of us do not have the technical expertise and find the KISS methodsuits us. I have tried other email clients similar to OE and that is the operative word similar..I need the Source tab, I need the edit tab.

Just my input and voicing the the majority opinion of OE stationery creators.

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I also prefer Outlook Express rather than Outlook for home use. My wife uses Outlook at her office and I find it cumbersome and unhandy. I didn’t know anybody else preferred OE !!

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Not sure what one would find missing with Thunderbird. I have multiple email address’ set up , each with it’s own in box. Then with filters, I can have messages automatically placed in specific folders, even across in-boxes. So I have such folders as windows Secrets, Family, CNet, Finance, even “politics” etc and based on what I am concentrating on I can go to the folder of the moment. The only issue I have with email clients is how much band width it takes to down load all my messages each time I open the client. The issue I had with Outlook and lout look express, when I tried to use them, was every thing went to the same inbox. Perhaps I didn’t take enough time to set it up. With Thunderbird, I can also choose which email address I want ot use for each out going mail regardless of which in box it came to. just my 2 cents ds

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Believe me, there many of us out here who want OE to return. We are not troglodytes, we just enjoy OE and it supported our hobby very well. So easy to use without all the other stuff we don’t want. i have used OE since well, let’s leave the year out of this. The stationery works perfectly in OE, we make all singing all dancing email stationery.

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I do not believe you will see OE returned. I also enjoyed it, but have learned to live with WLM and have gotten accustomed to it’s intricacies. I do not use stationery but according to Ask.com, WLM can use stationery.

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Yes WLM does support stationeries BUT…it decides to strip some of the coding in the stationery and it does not perform like it should, or it adds extra stuff to the coding and then causes even more havoc. You have to use short paths of the sources and sometimes that does not owrk properly, so all in all WLM causes more problems. I have tried to use WLM stationery, the kind that comes with programme and then I get error messages that says it cannot recreate the stationery. now this is the stationery designed by WLM…so frustrating. There are other features I do not like about WLM, to me it is not user friendly. if OE does not return I am prepared to buy another programme that does support Stationery. i have been trialling it and it works fine, just a bit more convuluted than OE and the stationery has to be created using IE8 HTML, but that is work around and far better than WLM…

I have had a look at Thunderbird today and not sure that I could settle to using it.

Dream Mail out of China, is ok, but just have too many questions regarding security. it still does not perfom like OE…

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Is there an evaluation/comparison somewhere on the web of simple, fast, clean replacements for Outlook Express that can be used on Windows 7?

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Hooray for Sparky’s mom. Yes I know it is possible to use stationery with either WLM or Mokum Mail or some other systems, but it sure isn’t as straightforward as it was (and should be) in Outlook Express.
I too reverted to XP in order to continue to use stationery. Sadly a large proportion of computer experts do not even understand what stationery means. As it is they throw up their hands in horror at the thought of using HTML or scripting as they believe it is the devil’s work. If Win 8 is as bad as win 7 then I will continue with XP until death do us part.

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Is there an evaluation/comparison somewhere on the web of simple, fast, clean replacements for Outlook Express that can be used on Windows 7?

I also can’t make the complete “Break a way” from XP mainly due to OE6. BUT, what I did on my win7 install (of which is on a separate drive) is use Thunderbird.

I first installed TB in my XP because it will pull all the OE6 mail/accs/etc. to the TB install, I then installed “Mozbackup” and backed up to a separate partition (very easy), I then went into Win7 and installed TB — then installed Moxbackup and Moz program brought it up to date.

How ever, the win7 TB is now out of date as I seem to be in XP most of the time.

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Is there an evaluation/comparison somewhere on the web of simple, fast, clean replacements for Outlook Express that can be used on Windows 7?

There’s a brief summary here, with links to reviews and user recommendations: Top 11 Free Email Programs for Windows

Bruce

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I’m a working computer tech and have been since the DOS days.
Over the past ten years, for instance, I’ve had many calls about an email program that’s gone Wonky and out of all those calls, all but one have been about MS Outlook. Just one of those service calls was related to OE6. That was because the user (x2) had never emptied the Sent Items folder and it was so HUGE it could not be opened in the available RAM. I dumped that folder and the problem was solved.
That customer now cleans out their Sent Items and Deleted Items folder as a part of their weekly computer maintenance routine.
Fixing Outlook was never simple and a real pain in the arse. It’s just WAY too complicated for a home user that doesn’t want or need all that extra stuff.

OE was still available in Vista, under the alias of Windows Mail. It could be set up to look and act exactly like OE6.

Enter Windows 7. Windows Mail was still there, but now disabled. I never did understand that, unless they new that some clever tech would find the key to re-activating it. Success sometimes comes in small packages.
Just replacing the MSOE.dll file in Windows Mail, with the same file from Vista, fixes it so it works.
I now carry that file on my Utilities DVD and I activate Windows Mail for every one of my Win-7 customers, who want it. Many have just been using Web-Mail for years and are just as happy to continue using that.
But those who have used OE6 very much appreciate being able to use Windows Mail.

Enter Windows 8. Windows Mail is still right there, in the same place as in Win-7, but the re-activate fix, as outlined above, does not work. At least I’ve not made it work yet. I’m keeping my fingers crossed, that in a later version of Win-8, it WILL work. I’m trusting that some clever programmer (hacker) will find a way to fix Windows Mail in Win-8.

I personally wish that some very clever programmer out there someplace, would write an OE6 workalike email program.
We have Workalikes for Office, Adobe Reader and many other programs, so why not OE6?

I’m still running Windows XP-Pro-SP3 on my main computer and I sincerely LOVE it over every other OS that I’ve tried and I’ve tried them all, at least as far as MS is concerned.

So for that person that has their whole life tied to OE6, all I can say is keep one PC running XP and OE6 to do your email on and if you want to run 7, 8 or whatever else comes along, do that on a separate PC.
But above all, if you have that much of your life saved on that one PC, for goodness sake, BACKUP! BACKUP! BACKUP! and if you don’t know how, to make full C: drive backups, ask me in a PM and I’ll lay it out for you.

I do this stuff for a living, so I’m no stranger to it.

Cheers mates!
The Doctor

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I’m a working computer tech and have been since the DOS days.
Over the past ten years, for instance, I’ve had many calls about an email program that’s gone Wonky and out of all those calls, all but one have been about MS Outlook. Just one of those service calls was related to OE6..

OE was still available in Vista, under the alias of Windows Mail. It could be set up to look and act exactly like OE6.

Enter Windows 7. Windows Mail was still there, but now disabled. I never did understand that, unless they new that some clever tech would find the key to re-activating it. Success sometimes comes in small packages.
Just replacing the MSOE.dll file in Windows Mail, with the same file from Vista, fixes it so it works.
I now carry that file on my Utilities DVD and I activate Windows Mail for every one of my Win-7 customers, who want it. Many have just been using Web-Mail for years and are just as happy to continue using that.
But those who have used OE6 very much appreciate being able to use Windows Mail.

Cheers mates!
The Doctor

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Dr. Who –
Is Windows Mail as stable as OE 6? Can it handle many gigabytes of messages? Is the message store that you import from OE to use in Windows Mail the same size as it was in OE’s .dbx files? Does WM convert .dbx files to individual emails (which I would imagine would take a *huge* amount of space).

I used to break my OE folders about every 5000 messages, more or less, and create additional folders – so I’d have Inbox and then “Inbox 1-1-11 to 6-30-11” and so on. I may be wrong but I think that increased its stability. I also, on occasion, got rid of unused folders or made sub-folders so everything wasn’t at the top level.

What’s your experience with the stability of Windows Mail being made to work in Windows 7. Will it handle, say, 25 -35 gigabytes of mail? Worries about stability with large quantities of mail is mainly what’s been holding me back from switching to it, except for wanting to give WLM 2011 a fair trial and learn workarounds for it that might possibly make it tolerable – because I want to be at least familiar with changes that have come along since there will be new challenges built on top of those changes in the future.

Also, how does it deal with Windows 7’s “contact list” – if you use WM, does it replace the “contact list” format with the familiar “address book” from OE days?

It seems to me like this Windows 7 “contact list” exists independently of the mail program – I am not too sure how it works – I think I found it can be opened independently of whether you have the WLM 2011 mail program open (not sure about that).

Kelliann

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In reviewing this thread, I’ve only seen one mention of Thunderbird.

Free, simple to setup and fully licensed under GPL – no messing with copying dll’s from a different operating system; it works out of the box. I use it as a sand-boxed test-bed here alongside my main Outlook client.

Incidentally, there are loads of other email clients out there, as a quick look-up on Wikipedia suggests.

P.S. @ Kelliann1: 25 to 35GB of email….Wow that’s a heck of a lot of messages!

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The reason Windows mail was disabled (I believe) in Win 7 and Win 8 DP is due to the various lawsuits in Europe and elsewhere that forced the issue onto MS in order to allow Win 7 into those markets. Perhaps I am wrong but that is what I am remembering on this. Some of their competitors could not compete and had to force the issue so MS disabled WinMail to satisfy these lawsuits. Many of us users suffered from this.

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Many of us users suffered from this

Ted, I don’t see how any users suffered from this decision. Microsoft still developed an alternate mail program. You just have to download it rather than having it part of the OS. Microsoft has a tremendous application advantage for apps they include with the OS due to their monopoly position. Separating them out evens the playing field and allows for more variety and the user usually benefits. This is more obvious in browsers where we now have Firefox, Chrome, and Opera where IE was once dominant due to its prior inclusion in the OS. Competition even makes Microsoft apps better. I doubt if we would have IE 9 as good as it now is with little or no competition.

Jerry

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Perhaps my last sentence was a little dramatic. Many users that were enamored to OE had to learn a new Mail Client with different features, some features of which were lacking as specified by Sparky’s Mum. My mother also really liked the stationery feature which does not work nearly as well with WLM. I agree competition often makes apps better. The point I was making is not that apps are better or worse, but that this was the reason WinMail was disabled in Win 7. It was not by choice but to satisfy lawsuits brought against MS by competitiors.

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MS killing OE is interdependent of whether a mail app is included in the OS. MS included live mail in Vista. Like it or not, MS made the decision to go with apps with a ribbon interface for all future development. Even Windows Explorer has a ribbon in Windows 8.

I am ambivalent on Windows live mail and have set it up many times without it taking an inordinate amount of time. As I have said before, some people like the ribbon and some people hate it. That’s why they call them personal computers.

Jerry

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By the way, I don’t think the European setllement involved the mail app. It centered around the browser:
http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/12/16/european-commission-microsoft-settlement/

Jerry

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The whole Windows Live suite of programs and services (and I use that term very loosely) was/is an attempt to forestall future anti-trust issues with bundling application programs in the OS. If you remember the political climate back then it seemed as though there was a new investigation or threat of one around the world almost monthly. Of course, Microsoft spun it a different way. At the time, they said that by removing the programs from the OS the development cycle could proceed independently of Windows and at a faster pace. Of course, as we have seen that is utter nonsense. On recently have we seen any significant consumer visible changes in the service side with some nice development in Hotmail and Sky Drive. The applications program side seems to be mired in the same slow pace it always was.

Joe

--Joe

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WLM 2011 with its silly exploded menus and the sneaky little dropdown arrows to see more because they didn’t have enough room to explode it all…. Ugh. What a lousy piece of work. If a kindergartner or a caveman designed it I could see why it looks like that.

I agree 100 percent with Dr. Who on this matter and totally appreciate his posts on it. I agree – I wish someone with good programming skills would come up with an OE clone. There are a lot of us out here who would gladly pay for it.

What forum/website can this request be made on?

I have no interest in spending time hunting through a large bunch of icons on the ribbon for something I need — only to discover that it’s on the Insert tab menu and, oh yeah, if I click that little picture of a message that says OTHER on the message tab menu, why gee whiz there’s that thing I was looking for that is also on the Insert tab too.

I have been right clicking “features” to put them on the WLM Quick Access toolbar – and weirdly, sometimes I find the added features are there and sometimes not. Why? Dunno. I do like the fact that they have a quick access toolbar and it is nice that you can put all or almost all of the features on it. So far have not found a way to move the icons “up” or “down” (or in this case, sideways) to put them in the order I want.

But it is a slow, awkward clunker of a program to use in comparison with Outlook Express, lacking useful features, sticking us with multiple inboxes and a “library” sort of inbox.

My storage folders are the workhorse of my email program, and although I can move individual email accounts down below the storage folders so storage is right next to “all inbox” etc. (ake the library views), as soon as I close the program, they zoom right back to where they were before so when I reopen I have to clickclick clickety click each one again to move it down down down down down to the bottom, step by miserable step (thank you oh Great Gods of Microsoft).

I am using it with an IMAP server right now, with a temporary email address until I figure out what to do. I am keeping all of my regular incoming mail in my webmail accounts, storing it there til I decide.

I don’t know if it is the imap server or not but when I go to a folder, say, sent mail, sometimes half the index doesn’t show up right away. I suspect it is pulling it off the IMAP server every time I change folders, but I don’t know that for sure. IMAP is so bizarre, though. You click save to save something in your drafts folder and have to wait for it to go to the IMAP server and then come back to your own drafts folder on your computer. Sometimes it is half a minute or even more before it shows up in your drafts folder. I don’t know how people can “like” that. It is so weird.

Setting up WLM 2011 was easy – annoying to enter email accounts and all that jazz but no more so than setting up OE the first time, imo. However, discovering the exploded menus, the lack of an image resizer (which I now know works just like it used to in XP if you stick a small text file in with the pictures you selected), the refusal of the accounts to stay put below the storage folders, the loss of a number of features – was unpleasant, to say the least, and after several weeks of fair trial it is not something I am ever going to like even if I eventually decided to live with it or some updated version of it.

I already wanted to use the view source tab to change some pasted in HTML code to get rid of some stuff that didn’t paste correctly from a web page -but of course that tab is now missing and I’m stuck with it. I also found some copy/pastes from web pages that should have duplicated exactly — did not.

I also often can’t drag the headline of a news story I want to save in a draft email into the SUBJECT line. I used to be able to always highlight the words, control, click, drag and pull it right into the subject line. Now, most of the time, it won’t drop in the subject line at all – I have to do copy/paste, which is slower.

Kelliann

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I presume the rant about the drop-down menus, etc. is about what Microsoft glibly calls The Ribbon — also found in recent editions of MS Office. Either you love The Ribbon or you hate it — I have found very few people who did not have strong preferences one way or the other. Live Apps do not have the option of returning to Menus. That is a pain in the arse, as DrWho might put it. But either we learn to deal with changes, or we must write our own Apps and post them to the Web. Not an easy task in a Web-Apps-centric world. I miss the XP Style Menus as much as anybody, but I will move forward, even into the Brave New World of Metro Apps and Live Apps, like them or not.

-- rc primak

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I presume the rant about the drop-down menus, etc. is about what Microsoft glibly calls The Ribbon — also found in recent editions of MS Office. Either you love The Ribbon or you hate it — I have found very few people who did not have strong preferences one way or the other. Live Apps do not have the option of returning to Menus. That is a pain in the arse, as DrWho might put it. But either we learn to deal with changes, or we must write our own Apps and post them to the Web. Not an easy task in a Web-Apps-centric world. I miss the XP Style Menus as much as anybody, but I will move forward, even into the Brave New World of Metro Apps and Live Apps, like them or not.

—————————
Yes it was a rant and yes I hate the “ribbon.” That is why, even though I bought Office 2007 for another machine, I loaded my older 2003 Office on the newest computer.

I don’t understand why you say they don’t have the option of returning to menus. If I can use Office 2003 with menus on Windows 7, and if people can (as Dr. Who says) get Windows Mail to work on Windows 7 by fixing what’s broke (as he describes) then why can’t WLM 2011. which is being used as an email client/program on my computer, not some “thing” up there on the web, have normal menus instead of these ridiculous exploded Messes. After all, WLM mail client 2009 had menus.

This is just juvenile design by MS, trying to “help” and make it look “new” by giving us cute little pictures for menus as though we can’t read and need little images instead. No excuse for that.

I am not using Skydrive, not hooking my email to the web in the future. Right now, yes, am using temporary IMAP email using iCloud until I pick an email program for the computer and then it will be all POP3 – hurray – no more waiting for my own messages I just saved to a folder to go to the cloud and come back to my folder.

If I want to use a “web app” I’ll use one, but leave my darned computer-based programs alone, Microsoft. <—- that's what I have to say to *them.*

I am waiting for someone to write an Outlook Express clone, a stable one that can handle gigabytes of messages if broken up into folders of say, 5,000 msgs each. I'd pay for such a thing and so would a lot of other people, I'll bet. Spent some time yesterday looking for a forum where I could make that suggestion but haven't found the right one(s) yet. If anyone can suggest a site where I can float that idea, please tell me.

Kelliann

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—————————
Yes it was a rant and yes I hate the “ribbon.” That is why, even though I bought Office 2007 for another machine, I loaded my older 2003 Office on the newest computer.

I don’t understand why you say they don’t have the option of returning to menus. If I can use Office 2003 with menus on Windows 7, and if people can (as Dr. Who says) get Windows Mail to work on Windows 7 by fixing what’s broke (as he describes) then why can’t WLM 2011. which is being used as an email client/program on my computer, not some “thing” up there on the web, have normal menus instead of these ridiculous exploded Messes. After all, WLM mail client 2009 had menus.

This is just juvenile design by MS, trying to “help” and make it look “new” by giving us cute little pictures for menus as though we can’t read and need little images instead. No excuse for that.

I am not using Skydrive, not hooking my email to the web in the future. Right now, yes, am using temporary IMAP email using iCloud until I pick an email program for the computer and then it will be all POP3 – hurray – no more waiting for my own messages I just saved to a folder to go to the cloud and come back to my folder.

If I want to use a “web app” I’ll use one, but leave my darned computer-based programs alone, Microsoft. <—- that's what I have to say to *them.*

I am waiting for someone to write an Outlook Express clone, a stable one that can handle gigabytes of messages if broken up into folders of say, 5,000 msgs each. I'd pay for such a thing and so would a lot of other people, I'll bet. Spent some time yesterday looking for a forum where I could make that suggestion but haven't found the right one(s) yet. If anyone can suggest a site where I can float that idea, please tell me.

Kelliann

Live Mail's interface does not entirely reside on the local machine. A lot of the Ribbon stuff is actually up in the Cloud. We have no control over Cloud-App interfaces, unfortunately. One of the drawbacks of Cloud Apps, I guess.

Cloning Outlook Express, or making an Open Source Branch, would not be easy, given Microsoft's zealous pursuit of patent and copyright issues. Even wrenching the then-moribund Eudora out of Qualcomm's cold dead hands was a really Herculanean feat. I am forever grateful to the Thunderbird folks for creating Eudora OSE, which I now use. Qualcomm was so impressed by the surge of Eudora OSE use that they revived their own Eudora, now in Version 8 last I read. Too bad no such Open Source clone is likely for OE, for the reasons I have stated here.

-- rc primak

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Live Mail’s interface does not entirely reside on the local machine. A lot of the Ribbon stuff is actually up in the Cloud. We have no control over Cloud-App interfaces, unfortunately. One of the drawbacks of Cloud Apps, I guess.

That seems most unlikely when I can use Windows Live Mail offline, whilst disconnected from the internet, for all functions including full use of the ribbon. :confused:

Bruce

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That seems most unlikely when I can use Windows Live Mail offline, whilst disconnected from the internet, for all functions including full use of the ribbon. :confused:

Bruce

I think the offline version syncs with a Cloud version. Live Mail does have a dual personality of sorts, as you say. It exists both as a full-featured desktop client and as a Cloud-based App. But when used in the Cloud (as many folks do) we do not have an option to get rid of the WLM Ribbon. Maybe not even on the desktop.

IMAP does sync with the actual Web Mail Account in the Cloud, even though the client is on the local machine. If you delete a message in an IMAP client and then decide you want it back, it is gone from the server in most cases. At least by default. There, the Ribbon may not be in the Cloud, but getting rid of the Ribbon might very well interfere with IMAP functionality. IMAP still works when not connected to the Internet, but upon reconnecting, it will sync with the Cloud Account whenever the opportunity arises, silently in many cases. Very disconcerting if you are not aware of this behavior. This is not how POP operates by default.

And by the way, in answer to another post, you CAN copyright and patent ideas. That’s what these tech companies are always suing each other about, and the picture is incredibly muddy in terms of how closely one program may resemble or emulate features of another product.

In answer to yet another post, Thunderbird has a history completely independent of Outlook, and it bears little resemblance to OE. Users who want the look and feel of using OE are very unlikely to be happy with Thunderbird. Recent T-Bird versions aren’t even using separate Folders by default, preferring to use a more Google GMail-like Conversations View by default. (And Google has reportedly considered suing the Mozilla/Thunderbird developers about this.) I am still happy with the Eudora OSE interface which is Thunderbird under the hood, but this is not like the paid Eudora and its classic Mailboxes.

-- rc primak

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I think the offline version syncs with a Cloud version. Live Mail does have a dual personality of sorts, as you say. It exists both as a full-featured desktop client and as a Cloud-based App. But when used in the Cloud (as many folks do) we do not have an option to get rid of the WLM Ribbon. Maybe not even on the desktop.

Windows Live Mail is a downloadable desktop email client application.

Windows Live Hotmail is a web-based email service with no ribbon.

How do I access the cloud-based application which has a ribbon?

Bruce

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Bob, thank you for shedding some light on that situation. Seems to me if someone built their own, not using any of microsoft’s code verbatim (like they didn’t even have it in front of them to look at), nobody could say they stole code they didn’t write. I don’t think you can copyright or patent ideas, can you?? I have no idea but I have heard that said about copyrights.

I have heard it said that thunderbird is very much like OE (it has some features I don’t care for but it’s been about 18 mo. since I’ve tried it so can’t recall what). I know nothing about Thunderbird origin but now have to wonder how they escaped MS’s lawyers.

Regarding the ribbon and the cloud – I bet what you said is true for those who use it as a web mail interface, but I use it strictly on my own computer as an email program. No skydrive, no signing in to WLM, no “photo emails” as they call them. I attach photos in the same way I did with OE with the exception of having to have a small text file in the same folder as the photos to select along with the pictures I wish to send.

This forces WLM to put up the old image resizer, allows me to reduce the file sizes and then the reduced size photos attach to the mail plus they are visible at good viewable sizes (not thumbnails) in the body of the email when the recipient gets it (I can’t see them in the body of the email when I send it). I just delete the small text file from the group of attachments before sending. With this method, sending pictures to someone works the same as it did in OE. No more “albums” or thumbs or invitations to view the “slideshow”.

As a side note, WLM 2009 still attaches resized photos exactly the same as OE. The change occurred with WLM 2010 or 2011 (never used 2010 so not sure if that version was changed or not).

Kelliann

Live Mail’s interface does not entirely reside on the local machine. A lot of the Ribbon stuff is actually up in the Cloud. We have no control over Cloud-App interfaces, unfortunately. One of the drawbacks of Cloud Apps, I guess.

Cloning Outlook Express, or making an Open Source Branch, would not be easy, given Microsoft’s zealous pursuit of patent and copyright issues. Even wrenching the then-moribund Eudora out of Qualcomm’s cold dead hands was a really Herculanean feat. I am forever grateful to the Thunderbird folks for creating Eudora OSE, which I now use. Qualcomm was so impressed by the surge of Eudora OSE use that they revived their own Eudora, now in Version 8 last I read. Too bad no such Open Source clone is likely for OE, for the reasons I have stated here.

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As we move into Win 8, the ribbon will become even more prevalent, finding it’s way into Windows Explorer as well. It does appear we will have to adopt the ribbon or switch to some other OS or become old. Some days I feel old but I want to try to keep my mind young and I am willing to learn something new. In defense of the ribbon, it is very customizable. You can change it to make it work the way you want it, putting your favorite commands together, etc. I have begun doing this in my Office products. Notice the Favorites Tab in my Word app:

30123-WordFavorites

Go ahead and play with the ribbon. See what you can do to make the ribbon work the way you want it to work. Spend the time to learn to use the ribbon. This is what is coming whether you like it or not.

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MozBackup is also free and works great with TB.

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There’s no legal reason I can imagine that would prevent MS from creating OE as a downloadable mail program. Same way they make WLM a program you have to download. So any claims that they stopped doing OE because of legal reasons can’t be worth beans because otherwise, they’d have to also stop offering WLM.

And if there is some legal gibberish that keeps them from offering it as a downloadable mail program, then, why don’t they license it to someone else? Hmmm? I am sure their highly skilled lawyers could find a way to make that work. Or just outright SELL it to someone else!

IMO, of course.

Thousands, hundreds of thousands of people would pay to have that back, I think.

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There’s no legal reason I can imagine that would prevent MS from creating OE as a downloadable mail program. Same way they make WLM a program you have to download. So any claims that they stopped doing OE because of legal reasons can’t be worth beans because otherwise, they’d have to also stop offering WLM.

And if there is some legal gibberish that keeps them from offering it as a downloadable mail program, then, why don’t they license it to someone else? Hmmm? I am sure their highly skilled lawyers could find a way to make that work. Or just outright SELL it to someone else!

IMO, of course.

Thousands, hundreds of thousands of people would pay to have that back, I think.

The original reason given for releasing Windows Live was twofold – 1. they could avoid future antitrust issues with separate programs and 2. the could update the programs at a different pace than Windows. However, they did not quit making OE for legal reasons. They quit making OE because they could not easily bring OE up to current security standards. OE was/is notorious for being a terrible database manager with all kinds of issues with large datasets – your own experience notwithstanding. In short, it was easier to start from scratch to build a new email product than to upgrade OE.

As far as a Windows 8 email client goes, all I can say is “who knows?”. The best thing to do is to look at the consumer preview which should be available in the next couple of weeks. Microsoft has been tight lipped about what will be in it and updates to Windows Live.

Joe

--Joe

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The original reason given for releasing Windows Live was twofold – 1. they could avoid future antitrust issues with separate programs and 2. the could update the programs at a different pace than Windows. However, they did not quit making OE for legal reasons. They quit making OE because they could not easily bring OE up to current security standards. OE was/is notorious for being a terrible database manager with all kinds of issues with large datasets – your own experience notwithstanding. In short, it was easier to start from scratch to build a new email product than to upgrade OE.

As far as a Windows 8 email client goes, all I can say is “who knows?”. The best thing to do is to look at the consumer preview which should be available in the next couple of weeks. Microsoft has been tight lipped about what will be in it and updates to Windows Live.

Joe

Hi Joe – thanks for your view on the legal issue. I have to say, regarding large dbx files – Dr. Who reports the same experience as I do with multiple companies / individuals that are clients of his.

Perhaps all of us had the bright idea to break the large folders into several smaller ones, I don’t know. But in any case, if Dr. Who will respond to my query of a couple of days ago asking about stability of WM in Windows 7, and if his answer is positive, I’m almost sure now that I need to switch to that.

I’m waiting for that consumer preview. Do you have any names/numbers at Microsoft that I can call to give them my opinion on what they are doing? Someone who counts, not a call center person.

I was just frantically trying to use the email program WLM 2011 while on deadline for a project and WLM is just impossible. The little icons on the quick access bar look alike – a pair of small envelopes – you have to hover and wait to see what they are in text and make sure you are about to click the right one. I can’t believe anyone could do such incredibly poor design.

Kelliann

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Dumb question I know but here it is: the Outlook Express folder in Program Files on my XP machine has five .exe files and six .dll files. What happens if this folder is copied to a Windows 7 machine and then the .exe files are run there? Windows 7 is SUPPOSED to run XP programs isn’t it?

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Most likely nothing because the app is not installed and there are no corresponding registry entries. There are other places in XP that OE files are located Common Files, App Data, Etc. I would think that should be enough to stop it from working.

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I think Bob is referring to the use of Live Mail with a Live Mail or Hotmail webmail account. Its not true when using windows Live Mail with a Pop account.

Jerry

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I think Bob is referring to the use of Live Mail with a Live Mail or Hotmail webmail account. Its not true when using windows Live Mail with a Pop account.

It’s not true with my Live Mail account. Does webmail even have a ribbon?

Bruce

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My guess is that if you do “photo email” which forces you to sign in to WLM to gain access to the cloud, and which forces you to store your photos you are “sending” on the cloud, then it could be said that those “buttons” which show up on your WLM 2011 email client are hooked into the “cloud” so that when you click one, you are communicating with the cloud, not your own computer other than to select your pictures off your own computer’s hard drive.

I have “webmail” with my ISP and any time I want to go look at it or use it, I can go to their site and do so. This is fine when I am away from home using someone else’s computer or am using a computer at home that has no email program on it but I want to use that computer and need something out of an email, say a link, for something.

But I see no need to use Microsoft’s webmail. Why would I want to do that? What would they do, get the mail from my ISP’s website and present it to me on the MS website? That sounds unnecessarily convoluted and downright silly if that’s what they want to do. Or do they want me to change my address that I’ve had since the early 90s and use a “hotmail” address? Not a remote chance I’d do that.

Kelliann

It’s not true with my Live Mail account. Does webmail even have a ribbon?

Bruce

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My guess is that if you do “photo email” which forces you to sign in to WLM to gain access to the cloud, and which forces you to store your photos you are “sending” on the cloud, then it could be said that those “buttons” which show up on your WLM 2011 email client are hooked into the “cloud” so that when you click one, you are communicating with the cloud, not your own computer other than to select your pictures off your own computer’s hard drive.

I can “send” a photo email from Windows Live Mail with full ribbon functionality while disconnected from the net, so I still have no clue what this ribbon in the cloud stuff means:

Live Mail’s interface does not entirely reside on the local machine. A lot of the Ribbon stuff is actually up in the Cloud. We have no control over Cloud-App interfaces, unfortunately. One of the drawbacks of Cloud Apps, I guess.

Bruce

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Jerry, is this an IMAP account, when you use WLM 2011 with Live Mail or Hotmail webmail account?

Its a webmail account that works a lot like IMAP. The actual files are kept on the Live Mail (Hotmail) server and you can access them from multiple PCs.

Jerry

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It’s not true with my Live Mail account. Does webmail even have a ribbon?

It does have a ribbon if you use the Windows Live Mail application on your PC to read/post to your Windows Live mail web mail account. Don’t know why Microsoft decided to name the mail application the same as the live Mail account because it causes a lot of confusion.

Jerry

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It does have a ribbon if you use the Windows Live Mail application on your PC to read/post to your Windows Live mail web mail account. Don’t know why Microsoft decided to name the mail application the same as the live Mail account because it causes a lot of confusion.

Jerry

Isn’t webmail done on the web? In a browser? I.E. Windows Live Hotmail? (with no ribbon).

Windows Live Mail is a desktop client (with a cloudless ribbon).

Bruce

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I think Bob is referring to the use of Live Mail with a Live Mail or Hotmail webmail account. Its not true when using windows Live Mail with a Pop account.

Jerry

Jerry, is this an IMAP account, when you use WLM 2011 with Live Mail or Hotmail webmail account? It would seem to me that it would have to be. I experience delays with an IMAP account using iCloud. And sometimes when I open a folder, say the Drafts folder, email subject lines are not visible until I drag the cursor up and down the page and then they show up. I attributed this to it being IMAP mail somehow. Maybe not, but I don”t have any other explanation for it. I’ve got 12 GB of memory and 1 TB hard drive on this computer so it’s not that.

Kelliann

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Windows Live Mail desktop client will handle Windows Live webmail with a ribbon as will Microsoft Outlook with the hot mail connector add on installed. Try adding a new account in Windows Live mail and under server type select Windows Live Hotmail.

Jerry

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Windows Live Mail desktop client will handle Windows Live webmail with a ribbon as will Microsoft Outlook with the hot mail connector add on installed. Try adding a new account in Windows Live mail and under server type select Windows Live Hotmail.

That’s what I use (as a backup to Outlook). But I think we’re getting off track.

I see no evidence of any ribbon in the cloud!

Bruce

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It boils down to a question of semantics. You are right – there is currently no ribbon in the cloud but Windows Live mail (and Outlook 2010) provides a ribbon interface to the cloud application Hotmail/Windows Live Mail.

Jerry

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It boils down to a question of semantics. You are right – there is currently no ribbon in the cloud but Windows Live mail (and Outlook 2010) provides a ribbon interface to the cloud application Hotmail/Windows Live Mail.

Jerry

UGH! Why did MS have to make something that was SO simple into this monstrosity — the average person can’t even tell what’s going on! OTOH I heard that that’s what “they” want. They are moving toward taking total control over our computing so that we can’t function without asking them for help – nothing we can do on our own anymore. We’re to store our stuff on their servers, access them in the way Microsoft wants, and sooner or later bet they’l make us PAY to access our own stuff (beyond just paying for the operating system and programs).

If Windows 8 goes any further into “the cloud” then Windows 7 is the last MS operating system I will ever buy. I am regretting I ever let anyone talk me into switching out of XP. I am also regretting I didn’t buy two or three more XPs in the box when I could have (except of course I couldn’t afford it). All I have is one OEM copy right now.

Kelliann

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I too loved Outlook Express…but now use eM Client and have come to love it! Of course, I use it for business purposes mainly and having multiple accounts was required to get the paid version…but it’s quite affordable. As a stand alone email client it rocks!

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UGH! Why did MS have to make something that was SO simple into this monstrosity — the average person can’t even tell what’s going on! OTOH I heard that that’s what “they” want. They are moving toward taking total control over our computing so that we can’t function without asking them for help – nothing we can do on our own anymore. We’re to store our stuff on their servers, access them in the way Microsoft wants, and sooner or later bet they’l make us PAY to access our own stuff (beyond just paying for the operating system and programs).

UGH! is right!! And what about us less than average? I have been signed in here for two hours reading about email on Win7 & have gotten sooo lost due to so much about web based email in WLM. I don’t care for nor want to sign up for ‘Hotmail’, ‘gmail’, etc. because, as I ‘think’ you said, I already have web through my ISP which I’m using now ‘cuz I can’t decide on a client. I’d really like to try Windows Mail as per seven forum but not sure I’m smart enough to actually get it done.
Shoot, now I’ve rambled on here so much that I’m not sure I’ve actually made a point or asked a question. :confused:

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Outlook 2007 almost eraced my inbox

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This is just my two cents on the issue, please don’t take my point of view as being anything else.

What is wrong with simply accessing email through the browser? Works perfectly fine for me & I have 6 email accounts. All of these other options, Windows Live Mail, Outlook Express & Thunderbird is a pain to setup. Plus, all of them doesn’t allow for at least one of my email accounts mail to come through.

I have them bookmarked into a folder “eMail accounts”, & go to them when I wish to. Have been doing it that way for years. Why does email have to be so complicated?

BTW, there appears to be some sort of email built into Windows 8 CP, because when I sign in, using my Windows Live password, unread messages shows. But when one wants to check their email, the user must re-enter their password. There is the option to import email accounts, but once again, not all of them. I just checked.

Cat

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Hi Cat –
Webmail is a real pain for me! I have 10 email accounts (one is an apple me.com imap account and the rest are pop3).

It doesn’t have the functions I want, it’s slow even on the fasted possible cable connection (always waiting for someone’s server, it seems), etc.

I suppose if you do 25 emails a day maybe webmail would be good enough, but I get over 100 a day and I don’t have time to mess with mail on a browser, even when the browser is Chrome (and forget IE – that’s like trying to speed behind an elephant).

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I suppose if you do 25 emails a day maybe webmail would be good enough, but I get over 100 a day and I don’t have time to mess with mail on a browser, even when the browser is Chrome (and forget IE – that’s like trying to speed behind an elephant).

:
Internet Explorer should be faster than Chrome:

Internet Explorer 9, the fastest way to browse the web

How much faster is IE10
Bruce

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Hi Bruce – Chrome hands down wins on all three of my machines for speed – over three different versions of IE, and on Windows xp, Windows 7 home premium and Windows 7 professional. And unfortunately, I had to uninstall IE9 from my newest computer – it didn’t work on some websites. I had to go back to 8. Right now I am so disgusted with IE 8 that I am about to make Chrome the default browser.

I actually did expect really good things from IE 9 and then from IE 8. I was very careful – added no toolbars to it, dump the temp files regularly. It has never been as fast as Chrome for me.

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Hi Cat –
Webmail is a real pain for me! I have 10 email accounts (one is an apple me.com imap account and the rest are pop3).

It doesn’t have the functions I want, it’s slow even on the fasted possible cable connection (always waiting for someone’s server, it seems), etc.

I suppose if you do 25 emails a day maybe webmail would be good enough, but I get over 100 a day and I don’t have time to mess with mail on a browser, even when the browser is Chrome (and forget IE – that’s like trying to speed behind an elephant).

“25 a day?” I probably get over 100 on any given day, but still use the browser to access them. A Mail client is just another program to look out after, as well as a possible security breach.

Not to mention that any one of the well known email programs won’t access all of my email accounts (7 brands, 13 accounts). I’ve added a few since my last posting. If one program can’t access all, then I don’t need it.

Cat

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Drew, you’re right about a lot of pros but I find the majority of “normal” users much prefer Outlook Express and rue its demise after Windows XP.

Jerry

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I find that a bit presumptuous. Outlook Express did have some issues but it worked perfectly fine for many users and was a nice simple mail client. many users prefer it to the ribbon based Windows Live Mail. I let my clients make their own decision on which email program they wish to use.

Jerry

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Junk? Oh REALLY?? OE handled over 12 GB of mail for me. Never broke, never failed me. It is NOT junk, no matter what you think, Drew. If I were your client and you tried to use that on me and “help” me, we’d be at war instantly.

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On the contrary, I think it should be the responsibility of browsers to be as backwards compatible as possible. Web sites can’t afford to keep up with constant changes to the three major browsers (IE, Firefox, and Chrome) so it behooves them to keep thier impact to a minimum.

Jerry

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I have almost concluded that IF I can’t get a mail program to my liking after Windows 7 (my primary email program on Windows 7 is now Windows Mail, made to work following the SevenForums instructions), then I am either staying with Windows 7 forever, or, switching to a Mac. I never thought I’d see the day when I’d consider totally switching to a Mac!!!! But my email program is too important to me to put up with lame substitutes (WLM is a lame substitute for WM and OE as far as I’m concerned).

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Windows 8 Mail leaves users pining for the desktop—or even their phones

“The killer e-mail app for Windows 8 is still MIA”

“Windows Live Mail not quite dead yet”

Bruce

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