Replies

Thanks everyone for the ideas and education on how all of this works. It makes sense once explained.

I used recovery disks to format and set up the C: drive, and now have Windows 2000, the basic utilities and the updated display driver installed. I still have to uninstall Windows from the D: drive.

* Is there any trick to uninstalling Windows from the D: drive so I can get rid of the boot screen where you see the choice for which copy of Windows you want to use?

* Also, since the cause of this mess was most likely a conflict between SystemWorks 2004 and another software driver, I’m paranoid about having another blowup. Should I load SystemWorks before or after I start loading my applications? Is there any way to proactively look for places where conflicts might occur?

[The background in a nutshell: I had SW2002 and it worked fine for several years. When I updated to SW2004, first there was a serious conflict with the video driver which I overcame with an updated driver. Then the AntiVirus Auto-Protect would not work no matter what. After trying everything else, the Symantec tech support person had me uninstall Roxio CD Creator which is when the operating system short circuited beyond recovery. It seems almost all anti-virus products have similar problems with upgrades because of conflicts with older software.]

Any words of advice on the two questions (*) would be very helpful and most appreciated.

Thanks again everyone,
Virginia

[indent]

---

I think the problem really probably doesn’t lie with Symantec and their base quality, but rather on the normal problems of a complicated softwrae product in an evolving technological setting, on a platform that isn’t all that resilent to errors and corruption caused by frequent software changes, compounded by support techs that really aren’t comptuer professionals…

---

[/indent]
I agree that it’s mostly the evolution of technology that underlies these severe problems. When I spoke to a third Symantec support rep and suggested that it would behoove the company to notify users to upgrade drivers before upgrading SystemWorks, he countered with something about how much time and effort it would take away from the real job of keeping up with new viruses if they were to worry about making sure their products worked with all software and drivers. He didn’t exactly address what I suggested but it sure sounded like a classic “not my job!” response to me.

I did some research on the web to see what other people had to say about all the various anti-virus software and it does look like all the programs have the same issues. Clean installs on new machines work fine but when you upgrade to a new version a few years later, look out! And the more varied kinds of software you use, the more likely the upgrade will blow things up. I wonder why Symantec (and others) doesn’t mention this to users before they attempt upgrades? It seems like the bad feelings toward the company are a lot worse after a system meltdown than they would be about being warned to update everything first.

Has anyone had the experience of upgrading any specific anti-virus software on the same computer without issue over a period of five years or more? If so, what program is it?

Virginia

[indent]

---

I think the problem really probably doesn’t lie with Symantec and their base quality, but rather on the normal problems of a complicated softwrae product in an evolving technological setting, on a platform that isn’t all that resilent to errors and corruption caused by frequent software changes, compounded by support techs that really aren’t comptuer professionals…

---

[/indent]
I agree that it’s mostly the evolution of technology that underlies these severe problems. When I spoke to a third Symantec support rep and suggested that it would behoove the company to notify users to upgrade drivers before upgrading SystemWorks, he countered with something about how much time and effort it would take away from the real job of keeping up with new viruses if they were to worry about making sure their products worked with all software and drivers. He didn’t exactly address what I suggested but it sure sounded like a classic “not my job!” response to me.

I did some research on the web to see what other people had to say about all the various anti-virus software and it does look like all the programs have the same issues. Clean installs on new machines work fine but when you upgrade to a new version a few years later, look out! And the more varied kinds of software you use, the more likely the upgrade will blow things up. I wonder why Symantec (and others) doesn’t mention this to users before they attempt upgrades? It seems like the bad feelings toward the company are a lot worse after a system meltdown than they would be about being warned to update everything first.

Has anyone had the experience of upgrading any specific anti-virus software on the same computer without issue over a period of five years or more? If so, what program is it?

Virginia

I’m confused…
[indent]

---

If you format the C: drive while booted into Windows 2000 from D:, you will have a non-booting system. C: contains the boot sector and other Windows 2000 startup files – NTLDR et al.

---

[/indent]
Why would I have a non-booting system? I have Windows entirely loaded on the D: drive (for the moment). Windows on the C: drive is corrupt and doesn’t work at all. Don’t I now have a boot sector on the D: drive? Dell tech support had me load drivers and utilities specifically onto the D: drive. And when I was moving data files off the C: drive I moved C:WINNT to the trash with no noticeable consequences. All this made me think that whatever was left on the C: drive was just garbage, not being used by Windows at all. I really don’t know much about this so I’m willing to accept that what you say is true but I want to understand it.

Thanks for your help,
Virginia

I’m confused…
[indent]

---

If you format the C: drive while booted into Windows 2000 from D:, you will have a non-booting system. C: contains the boot sector and other Windows 2000 startup files – NTLDR et al.

---

[/indent]
Why would I have a non-booting system? I have Windows entirely loaded on the D: drive (for the moment). Windows on the C: drive is corrupt and doesn’t work at all. Don’t I now have a boot sector on the D: drive? Dell tech support had me load drivers and utilities specifically onto the D: drive. And when I was moving data files off the C: drive I moved C:WINNT to the trash with no noticeable consequences. All this made me think that whatever was left on the C: drive was just garbage, not being used by Windows at all. I really don’t know much about this so I’m willing to accept that what you say is true but I want to understand it.

Thanks for your help,
Virginia

Here is an update on this unfortunate saga. Long story short, nothing worked to get rid of the Auto-Protect error and, thanks to Symantec tech support, if I didn’t have a second hard drive I’d be paying someone to retrieve data off of my C: drive right now. Here’s how it played out…

After trying all of the suggestions posted here, I finally called Symantec. Eventually they were convinced that this was a no-charge for support problem. One thing that will be important to anyone else who runs into the 2004,517 error is that before you call Symantec you have to determine that some other service isn’t conflicting with Norton on startup. The instructions are on the Symantec web page for dealing with Error 2004,517. One of the expandable links says “for Windows XP Only” – except Symantec expects you to check the same things if you’re running Windows 2000 even though they don’t say so. If you’re running Windows 2000 may have to download the msconfig utility to your desktop.

After the initial support conversation, I was emailed a detailed set of instructions for uninstalling all Symantec products, editing the registry, and cleaning out all left over Symantec/Norton files and folders. When I finally re-installed SystemWorks I got the same error.

I got another support rep on the phone and we went through every conceivable scenario. I was on the phone for 3 1/2 hours but alas, the whole thing ended when the tech support guy suggested that I try uninstalling Roxio CD Creator (someone else had reported some sort of minor conflict with it). After the uninstall process I rebooted my computer and got the blue screen of death. At that point the Symantec support rep told me I was on my own. My computer was so jacked up that I couldn’t even get my CD drive to read my recovery disk. Fortunately I also have a laptop computer and a Dell support person helped me copy boot files to floppies and we then used those to install Windows on my second hard drive. I’ve been able to retrieve and back up all my data from the C: drive that way but still have to reformat the C: drive and reload windows and all the programs and all the backed up data. What a @#$&% MESS!

Symantec didn’t have much to say except “gee, we’re really sorry this happened but it’s up to you to keep all your hardware and program drivers current [he suggested ALL drivers be check annually] and that’s still no guarantee our program won’t blow up your system.” The long and short of it is that they have no idea what caused the error but the fact that uninstalling Roxio CD Creator blew up my system might suggest a driver conflict of some kind.

Isn’t it comforting to know that the software we rely on to keep our computers safe can so easily cause way more damage than the viruses do?!

I’d be heading straight for McAfee if I hadn’t already had the same kind of problem with them about three years ago (although not quite as multifaceted and severe) – and none of their tech support people spoke or wrote good English which made the situation much worse.

If anyone can recommend a more reliable solution to virus prevention than either Norton or McAfee, I’d be interested in your opinion.

Virginia

Here is an update on this unfortunate saga. Long story short, nothing worked to get rid of the Auto-Protect error and, thanks to Symantec tech support, if I didn’t have a second hard drive I’d be paying someone to retrieve data off of my C: drive right now. Here’s how it played out…

After trying all of the suggestions posted here, I finally called Symantec. Eventually they were convinced that this was a no-charge for support problem. One thing that will be important to anyone else who runs into the 2004,517 error is that before you call Symantec you have to determine that some other service isn’t conflicting with Norton on startup. The instructions are on the Symantec web page for dealing with Error 2004,517. One of the expandable links says “for Windows XP Only” – except Symantec expects you to check the same things if you’re running Windows 2000 even though they don’t say so. If you’re running Windows 2000 may have to download the msconfig utility to your desktop.

After the initial support conversation, I was emailed a detailed set of instructions for uninstalling all Symantec products, editing the registry, and cleaning out all left over Symantec/Norton files and folders. When I finally re-installed SystemWorks I got the same error.

I got another support rep on the phone and we went through every conceivable scenario. I was on the phone for 3 1/2 hours but alas, the whole thing ended when the tech support guy suggested that I try uninstalling Roxio CD Creator (someone else had reported some sort of minor conflict with it). After the uninstall process I rebooted my computer and got the blue screen of death. At that point the Symantec support rep told me I was on my own. My computer was so jacked up that I couldn’t even get my CD drive to read my recovery disk. Fortunately I also have a laptop computer and a Dell support person helped me copy boot files to floppies and we then used those to install Windows on my second hard drive. I’ve been able to retrieve and back up all my data from the C: drive that way but still have to reformat the C: drive and reload windows and all the programs and all the backed up data. What a @#$&% MESS!

Symantec didn’t have much to say except “gee, we’re really sorry this happened but it’s up to you to keep all your hardware and program drivers current [he suggested ALL drivers be check annually] and that’s still no guarantee our program won’t blow up your system.” The long and short of it is that they have no idea what caused the error but the fact that uninstalling Roxio CD Creator blew up my system might suggest a driver conflict of some kind.

Isn’t it comforting to know that the software we rely on to keep our computers safe can so easily cause way more damage than the viruses do?!

I’d be heading straight for McAfee if I hadn’t already had the same kind of problem with them about three years ago (although not quite as multifaceted and severe) – and none of their tech support people spoke or wrote good English which made the situation much worse.

If anyone can recommend a more reliable solution to virus prevention than either Norton or McAfee, I’d be interested in your opinion.

Virginia

DaveA, thanks for the useful tip. The reason we end-users don’t delete the left-behind files is because Symantec doesn’t mention it in their instructions. I guess my failing is that I follow their instructions to the letter. It has gotten me into trouble before.

If the Auto-Protect problem isn’t in the registry I must have missed a file somewhere because the problem is still here. First I uninstalled SW2004 via Control Panel as usual. Then I used the instructions from Symantec’s web site on “Removing Norton SystemWorks 2004 in Windows XP/2000 after Add/Remove Programs does not work” to locate the leftover folders and files. I booted up in Safe Mode to remove these items. After I finished that I rebooted again and then re-installed SW2004 but at the end of the installation I still got the same error message.

Thank you and everyone else who has attempted to help me sort this out. Tomorrow I’m going to have a (paid, I’m sure) conversation with Symantec. If I learn the fix from them without having to reinstall my entire system, I will post the information here.

Virginia

DaveA, thanks for the useful tip. The reason we end-users don’t delete the left-behind files is because Symantec doesn’t mention it in their instructions. I guess my failing is that I follow their instructions to the letter. It has gotten me into trouble before.

If the Auto-Protect problem isn’t in the registry I must have missed a file somewhere because the problem is still here. First I uninstalled SW2004 via Control Panel as usual. Then I used the instructions from Symantec’s web site on “Removing Norton SystemWorks 2004 in Windows XP/2000 after Add/Remove Programs does not work” to locate the leftover folders and files. I booted up in Safe Mode to remove these items. After I finished that I rebooted again and then re-installed SW2004 but at the end of the installation I still got the same error message.

Thank you and everyone else who has attempted to help me sort this out. Tomorrow I’m going to have a (paid, I’m sure) conversation with Symantec. If I learn the fix from them without having to reinstall my entire system, I will post the information here.

Virginia

John, Thanks for the software suggestions. First I uninstalled SystemWorks, next I loaded and ran Ad-Aware SE Personal and then Spybot S&D, and finally, I reinstalled SW2004. While it was definitely worthwhile to clean my system and add another layer of security, it didn’t solve the Auto-Protect problem. But it was worth a try and it will be very useful to have these programs loaded going forward.

Thanks for taking the time to post these suggestions.
Virginia

John, Thanks for the software suggestions. First I uninstalled SystemWorks, next I loaded and ran Ad-Aware SE Personal and then Spybot S&D, and finally, I reinstalled SW2004. While it was definitely worthwhile to clean my system and add another layer of security, it didn’t solve the Auto-Protect problem. But it was worth a try and it will be very useful to have these programs loaded going forward.

Thanks for taking the time to post these suggestions.
Virginia

Lonnie, Thanks for all the thoughts and checks. I do have the SystemWorks 2004 manual and checked the pages you referenced. In my case the Auto-Protect icon DOES appear in the System Tray, it’s just that it’s permanently wearing a red X which means it’s not running. Also, the error I get when I try to activate Auto-Protect is slightly different than the one you posted [mine is 4002,517 rather than 4002,519] but I looked at the ‘519’ web site just in case and it says virtually the same thing. Yes, to all the double-checks: I made sure all the same things were selected as shown in the screen shots, I drilled down into each “if this, then that” section of Symantec’s web pages and I did everything!!! they suggested to the letter… in fact I’ve gone through it several times just to be sure I didn’t somehow miss something.

If I were to try deleting everything ‘Norton’ out of the Registry I would also assume that I would end up wiping my hard drive and reinstalling everything because I’m pretty sure I would screw up something major. However, your suggestion of reverting to SW2002 is a possibility I hadn’t considered. It may be more reasonable for the short term than my few remaining options. The reason I upgraded in the first place, though, was because I started seeing things about some of the newest virus definitions not running on the 2002 engine.

Thanks again for taking the time to help. It’s really great that there are so many people willing to lend a hand!

Lonnie, Thanks for all the thoughts and checks. I do have the SystemWorks 2004 manual and checked the pages you referenced. In my case the Auto-Protect icon DOES appear in the System Tray, it’s just that it’s permanently wearing a red X which means it’s not running. Also, the error I get when I try to activate Auto-Protect is slightly different than the one you posted [mine is 4002,517 rather than 4002,519] but I looked at the ‘519’ web site just in case and it says virtually the same thing. Yes, to all the double-checks: I made sure all the same things were selected as shown in the screen shots, I drilled down into each “if this, then that” section of Symantec’s web pages and I did everything!!! they suggested to the letter… in fact I’ve gone through it several times just to be sure I didn’t somehow miss something.

If I were to try deleting everything ‘Norton’ out of the Registry I would also assume that I would end up wiping my hard drive and reinstalling everything because I’m pretty sure I would screw up something major. However, your suggestion of reverting to SW2002 is a possibility I hadn’t considered. It may be more reasonable for the short term than my few remaining options. The reason I upgraded in the first place, though, was because I started seeing things about some of the newest virus definitions not running on the 2002 engine.

Thanks again for taking the time to help. It’s really great that there are so many people willing to lend a hand!

Thanks Bob for the info you provided. I guess I can’t blame the infection on Symantec. After reading this info on the trojan it does look like the infection probably occurred while I had NAV and ZoneAlarm shut down. From the descriptions, the infection may not have actually activated since I didn’t observe any of the described symptoms. At least it’s gone now as far as I can tell (or as far as either NAV or TDS3 can tell). I guess the infection and the AutoProtect problems I’m having may just be coincidental rather than causal.

Hopefully as I slog through the MS Security Bulletin and linked articles I will find some little kernel of useful information. None of Symantec’s website suggestions helped the AutoProtect issue. I even looked into the possibility that this might be a result of leftovers from SystemWorks 2002, even though the SW2004 manual specifically says you don’t need to uninstall SW2002 before installing SW2004. Unfortunately Symantec’s Rnav2003 removal tool doesn’t work if AntiVirus was installed as part of SystemWorks, and the web site does not even provide manual removal instructions for the combination of SystemWorks 2002 and Windows 2000… not that I’m at all keen on editing the Registry anyway. But it might be a shade better than reinstalling the large number of applications I have on this machine — that I actually use.

Any other ideas before I go jump off a cliff?

Thanks again,
Virginia

Thanks Bob for the info you provided. I guess I can’t blame the infection on Symantec. After reading this info on the trojan it does look like the infection probably occurred while I had NAV and ZoneAlarm shut down. From the descriptions, the infection may not have actually activated since I didn’t observe any of the described symptoms. At least it’s gone now as far as I can tell (or as far as either NAV or TDS3 can tell). I guess the infection and the AutoProtect problems I’m having may just be coincidental rather than causal.

Hopefully as I slog through the MS Security Bulletin and linked articles I will find some little kernel of useful information. None of Symantec’s website suggestions helped the AutoProtect issue. I even looked into the possibility that this might be a result of leftovers from SystemWorks 2002, even though the SW2004 manual specifically says you don’t need to uninstall SW2002 before installing SW2004. Unfortunately Symantec’s Rnav2003 removal tool doesn’t work if AntiVirus was installed as part of SystemWorks, and the web site does not even provide manual removal instructions for the combination of SystemWorks 2002 and Windows 2000… not that I’m at all keen on editing the Registry anyway. But it might be a shade better than reinstalling the large number of applications I have on this machine — that I actually use.

Any other ideas before I go jump off a cliff?

Thanks again,
Virginia