Windows Cloud – on beyond Windows 10?

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Günter Born has a very interesting post up this morning. He got his hands on a copy of Windows Cloud (possibly named “Windows 10 Cloud”?) and posted n
[See the full post at: Windows Cloud – on beyond Windows 10?]

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Has anyone said what the install size or system requirements are? I have a small Win8.1 tablet with only 16gb internal storage that utilizes WIMboot (which leaves Windows compressed, and boots and runs from the compressed image on the recovery partition), so this might actually be of interest if the install size is small enough. All this tablet is used for is basic web browsing and Gmail… it’s my “Throne Tablet” (stays in the bathroom, you know what I mean).

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Very good question, but MS hasn’t dropped any hints. Will it be available for download or separate installation – or will it only come preinstalled on new machines? I dunno.

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I just re-read the borncity.com article. His Windows Cloud base install was 12.7Gb, 2.5 – 3 times the size of a ChromeOS install. If MS intends this to give ChromeOS competition, especially on low-end eMMC tablets/convertibles, they’re heading the wrong way right off the bat (which really shouldn’t surprise anyone).

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Snowflake Theory

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@ Doc

According to https://twitter.com/rgadguard/status/827204445222137856 and
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/windows-10-cloud-leaked-apps-locked-down/ , the iso for Windows Starter Cloud 64bit is 4.2GB in size, ie about the same size as the Non-Cloud version.

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@ Doc

Actually, the Russian leaked 4.2GB iso includes 5 editions of Win 10 Cloud, ie

Win 10 Starter (= Home)
Win 10 Cloud (= Pro)
Win 10 Pro Single Language
Win 10 Ent G
Win 10 Ent Eval

So, the base Win 10 Cloud iso could be about 2GB in size.
.
.
If M$ make this Cloud version into a reality, they will also likely make it the only n mandatory mainstream version of Win 10, ie thru mandatory feature update/upgrade, new OS installs n new OEM pre-installs. This may be a way for M$ to forcefully make their Windows Store into a success since Win RT and Windows Phone 7/8/Win 10 Mobile had failed mainly bc of lack of apps at Windows Store.

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Fascinating!

So Win10 Cloud could just be Win10 Starter Pro….

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@ woody

No, as per the @adguard Twitter link, maybe it will be;

Win 10 Cloud Home (= Win 10 Starter)
Win 10 Cloud Pro (= Win 10 Cloud)
Win 10 Cloud Ent (= Win 10 Ent G)

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@ Doc ……. It is not advisable to upgrade Win 8.1 tablets to Win 10 bc of missing driver issues, even if there is a stripped-down version of Win 10 or Win 10 Lite.

Very cheap OEM Win 8.1 tablets that had to come with WIM compression bc of limited 16GB eMMC Flash storage were meant to be used for the life of the device, ie not meant to be upgraded,- similar to very cheap non-upgradeable Android phones.
“If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it”.

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Martin Brinkman’s test drive (http://www.ghacks.net/2017/02/04/windows-10-cloud-disappoints-first-look/) revealed a download size of 4.2GB and an installed size of 12.5GB.

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Let me answer the various errors in this post:

@ Doc ……. It is not advisable to upgrade Win 8.1 tablets to Win 10 bc of missing driver issues, even if there is a stripped-down version of Win 10 or Win 10 Lite.

I have a ASUS TransformerBook tablet. It has gotten BIOS, Firmware and Driver (including the critical SOC Drivers) updates from Windows 8.1 through Win 10 AU (current). All is working well after three system upgrades. This is a WIMBoot device, despite having 64GB onboard storage.

Very cheap OEM Win 8.1 tablets that had to come with WIM compression bc of limited 16GB eMMC Flash storage were meant to be used for the life of the device, ie not meant to be upgraded,- similar to very cheap non-upgradeable Android phones.
“If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it”.

There is another reason for using WIMBoot on even slightly more capable devices. It boots faster, especially if the device relies on an Atom or Pentium or Celeron class processor and has limited system RAM. all of which apply to my ASUS tablet.

The limiting factor on my tablet is the ribbon-battery, which is still going strong after three years and three system upgrades. Some earlier models ran the WIM off a ROM, which has limited write durability. Those devices would not withstand four upgrades. For me, the on/off switch on the edge of the bezel was also an Achilles Heel, and this resulted in sending the tablet back to ASUS for a Motherboard replacement (under their Warranty).

In Windows 10, the CU’s and some other updates, as well as the upgrades (like FU and AU) rewrite the Boot WIM. This can mess up the device and prevent it from booting. (This happened to me with the FU but not the AU.) Then you have to go back to the manufacturer and get the WIM reinstalled. Even copying the Recovery Partition with the ASUS tools didn’t save that issue. But Macrium Reflect Free now does handle WIMBoot and EFI Partitions properly, so now I can back up and recover the device without taking advantage of the manufacturer’s warranty.

So the dividing line between upgradable and nonupgradable devices is not as simple as whether it’s WIMBoot or not, or even whether it runs on Full Windows (which my tablet does) or runs on a WIM. Both configurations are usually upgradable, if precautions are taken, and the System, Recovery, EFI Partitions and OEM Drivers are backed up before upgrading. Pretty standard precautions.

-- rc primak

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AlanH

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@ rc primak

I was referring to OEM Win 8.1 tablets with 16GB of eMMC Flash storage(= require WIM compression) being non-upgradeable to Win 10, esp thru a clean reinstall of Win 10, bc of insufficient free disk space n missing drivers. There were many reports of this problem at answersdotmicrosoftdotcom.
Whereas, yr ASUS Transformer Win 8.1 tablet came with 64GB of eMMC Flash storage which was not very affected by this problem. That is why most of the latest very-cheap OEM Win 10 tablets come with at least 64GB of eMMC Flash storage, n not 16GB or 32GB.

It is also a well-known fact that running a desktop OS from cheap Flash storage is much worse than from more expensive HDD n SSD, ie not as durable. Less so for a Mobile OS, eg Android OS, iOS n Win 10 Mobile.
These very-cheap OEM Win 8.1/10 tablets from M$ are like a scam. IOW, they should not hv been sold in the market.

Excerpt from wikipedia;
“Windows 8.1 Update adds a new installation mode known as “WIMBoot”, where the WIM image that contains the Windows installation is left compressed rather than being extracted, and the system is configured to use files directly from within the system image. This installation method was primarily designed to reduce the footprint of the Windows installation on devices with small amounts of storage. The system image also doubles as the recovery image, speeding up Refresh and Reset operations.[114] It is only supported in systems with a Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI), where Windows is located on a solid-state drive or eMMC.”

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It’s going to be interesting

A Modern App-only, walled-garden system? Uh, not really. Not to everyone.

The legacy of Windows is not something to be lightly left behind. The Universal environment just doesn’t bring much of anything innovative or useful to the party to make it good in its own right. Not yet, anyway. And without the ability to run some 30 years of accumulated applications, how is it likely to do better than Win RT? Everyone has a few old applications they won’t want to live without.

-Noel

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I think the problem for MS is they have a large legacy, corporate base using traditional applications some of which are rather aged. The Windows Cloud seems to mismarketed. Windows implies that traditional applications will run on it. Google is smart enough to have two different names for the phone and laptop OS even if some of the apps will run on both. Thus there is less confusion, they are branded differently.

Currently almost all important Windows software is manually installed from a file or install media not from an app store. So Windows users do not naturally think of using an app store to find software. App stores need to be initially populated with decent to good applications so users will use them. Most important Windows applications have never been sold through an app store.

Also, MS does not seem to understand the Chrome OS and mobile markets very well. It seems to be more of a “me too” or panic move than a well thought out strategic move. Note, Apple seems to be ignoring the Chromebook market. MS may be worried as users adopt Chromebooks that the OEMs may start pushing closely related Linux distros with Google supplying the advertising muscle.

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@ lurks about

Bear in mind that CEO Nadella announced his “Cloud first Mobile First” strategy for M$ in 2014. Hence, we hv the mobile-centric Win 10 on 29 July 2015 n the likely-to-come Win 10 Cloud, where apps/programs could only be installed from Windows Store by registered users which is how Mobile OS work, eg Win 10 Mobile OS, Apple’s iOS n Google’s Android OS = a more profitable OS platform due to a walled-off ecosystem n Planned Obsolescence(eg cannot do a recovery with a clean install on phones).

To Nadella, Win 10 as a Desktop OS platform has become second or extincting/dying. IOW, Nadella is likely h**l-bent on making Win 10 similar to a Mobile OS that is tightly connected to the Cloud. Maybe, he also believes that smartphones will eventually supplant desktop n laptop cptrs.

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The question for MS is whether they will be a primarily business focused company or a consumer oriented. Windows Cloud and W10 seem to be going towards the consumer and ditch the business. Businesses often pay what is essentially a subscription for MS products already and will probably continue to do so in the future. Consumers are a more fickle bunch as often they do not need a specific application just one that will open the pictures, web pages, emails, and the occasional office documents. Their ties to Windows is more from inertia than need. Businesses often use very specialized applications that often only run on Windows (some cases specific releases).

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@ lurks about

Nearly all desktop Win32 business programs/software can be converted to UWP apps n then be made available at Windows Store, eg Office.
Thru mandatory Win 10 Cloud, M$ will be able to get fat commissions out of sales of business apps at Windows Store, eg AutoCAD.

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FWIW, I was running an HP Stream 7 with Windows 10 with the Anniversary Update for several weeks without incident. It originally came with Windows 8.1 and actually amazed me by updating through all of the Windows 10 RTM versions with few hiccups. So it can be done if you really want to, but it does eat up a lot of your internal storage. Despite the hardiness of the little HP tablet, I still couldn’t find any real reason to use it, so I blew away Win10 and am currently experimenting with Lubuntu on it.

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While it’s not a tablet, I decided to run a dual-boot of Ubuntu Linux and Windows on my Toshiba laptop, dating back to Windows 8’s first appearance. From Win 7 through Win 10 AU, the laptop ran beautifully. But Ubuntu 16.04 had a kernel update which wrecked the NVidia-Intel hybrid graphics, and that configuration no longer has either Ubuntu nor NVidia support. So I trashed the laptop and am now running Ubuntu on my self-assembled Intel NUC, alongside Windows 10 AU (Pro).

Some things the Windows Cloud Apps do are nice little parlor tricks, but as complete programs capable of getting any work done? … eh, not so much. If I really want to get some work done, and don’t want a load of cleanup and scanning to follow, I go over to Ubuntu and get the job done. In and out. No hassle. And no Cloud unless I want it.

-- rc primak

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Noel Carboni wrote:

Uh, not really. Not to everyone.

No one said “to everyone”.

Noel Carboni wrote:

Everyone has a few old applications they won’t want to live without.

Not everyone.

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They don’t have to be 30 years old applications.
They can even be Office 2016.

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We don’t know if it’s for Intel architecture or ARM architecture machines, or both.

We don’t know what it was being run on?

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If you read the borncity.com article, he’s obviously running it on Intel hardware.

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I did. Woody didn’t (apparently).

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Woody’s a busy dude – I don’t expect him to glean every single detail from every single tech article posted on the vast entirety of the interwebz.

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This was a single article which Woody found interesting and chose to bring to our attention.

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*sigh*

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b

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b wrote:

We don’t know what it was being run on?

Born ran it on Intel – the leaked copy apparently runs on Intel. What we don’t know is if it will, eventually, run on ARM.

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ch100

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Citing Mary Jo Foley, Liliputing has this take:
https://liliputing.com/2017/02/microsofts-rumored-windows-10-cloud-operating-system.html

They are clear that Windows Cloud is intended for use on ARM architecture, running Windows Store Apps and probably UWP converted Win32 apps. I don’t know if all of this info comes directly from Foley, or whether the authors got their hands on a leaked ISO of their own.

-- rc primak

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Running Win 10 Cloud will be similar to running iOS or Android tablets, ie apps/programs could only be installed from the Store or Cloud = more revenue for M$ from sales of apps, ads n marketing data thru Windows Store, like what Apple n Google hv been getting for their App Store n Play Store.
So, there is a good likelihood that M$ will wanna eventually transition all Win 10 users to Win 10 Cloud via the next, next feature update/upgrade, new installs n new OEM preinstalls at around end 2017.

A few days ago, petridotcom had shown a few of the various SKUs, ie Win 10 Cloud RTM OEM-NONSLP, Win 10 Cloud RTM Retail n Win 10 CloudN RTM OEM-DM.
RTM = Release to Manufacturers = similar to Win 10 RTM Version 1507/Build 10240 released on 29 July 2015.
https://www.petri.com/windows-10-cloud-sku-shows-latest-insider-builds

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anonymous wrote:

So, there is a good likelihood that M$ will wanna eventually transition all Win 10 users to Win 10 Cloud via the next, next feature update/upgrade, new installs n new OEM preinstalls at around end 2017.

Slim chance, not good likelihood.

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@ b

Why slim chance.? Pls elaborate.

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I don’t believe Microsoft could be stupid enough to eliminate the ability of 400 million Windows 10 users to run any desktop programs by the end of this year!

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@ b

Fyi,

quoted from digitaltrendsdotcom,

“Windows 10 Cloud does offer a way to use older desktop software, but the developer needs to take some action to make it possible. Microsoft offers a Desktop App Converter, which takes a desktop program and bundles all components into a sandboxed package that can be placed on the Windows Store. It’s still the same program, just in an app form — and upgraded to take advantage of special Windows 10 features only offered through the Universal Windows Platform model.”
.
.
It is possible for M$ to make the above happen for nearly all desktop Win32 programs/software by making it mandatory. But first M$ will hv to convert all Win 10 Non-Cloud to Win 10 Cloud. These two processes will take some time to complete, eg beginning from around end 2017.

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Sounds like a surefire way for Microsoft to get developers on their side (NOT).

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@ b

Such consideration about getting developers and customers on their side did not stop M$ from imposing mandatory MSDN/Visual Studio app fees/subscriptions
(https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-ide/suggestions/4504195-create-a-msdn-subscription-lite-version-cheape ),
mandatory auto-updates, cumulative updates and Telemetry & Data collection for Win 10, mandatory monthly Patch Rollups for Win 7/8.1, etc.

It is a majority opinion that the only side that M$ are on is M$$$$.

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400 million Windows 10 users

In Microsoft’s dreams.

I no doubt count for two:

1. I tried it on one hardware system back in 2015, then fell back to Windows 7, which that system will continue to run to fulfill its purpose indefinitely.

2. On my Win 8.1 workstation I run Win 10 occasionally in a VMware virtual machine, for testing as needed. I was once on the pre-release program with that VM, then I fell back to running only releases, and now I’m considering checking the box that puts it on the CBB. For this lifetime early adopter it’s simply no longer exciting or even very interesting to have to over and over undo all the junk that Microsoft is doing to it.

So… None of my hardware is actually on Windows 10. It’s simply not good enough. Three hundred ninety nine million, nine hundred ninety nine thousand, nine hundred ninety eight…

-Noel

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No, it’s 400 million active users (4 months ago, more now), so your 2015 dabble wouldn’t count:
Microsoft: Windows 10 now on 400 million devices

But why do you subtract your VM copy, which must be activated?

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Yes, it’s activated.

And no, it doesn’t count because I don’t rely on it for anything. It’s a necessary evil, there running as a VM under Win 8.1, where I do all my development and business management, in case one of my customers reports a Windows 10-specific problem. Sure, some have reported buying systems with Windows 10 on them, but for the most part they seem to be running Windows 7.

It’s all word games again… “Active devices” is not equal to “users”.

I am one user, and I use Windows 8.1 primarily. I have other systems that have various other versions of Windows. That doesn’t make me 3 users. Do you count a household with a teen who has an XBox and a Windows laptop as more than one user? Of course not.

Oh, and Win 10 running in a VM on a DEVICE running Windows 8.1 as its main OS doesn’t count as two DEVICES either.

And lastly, LOL, “Microsoft officials said.” Do you SERIOUSLY think Microsoft has any credibility left?

-Noel

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I don’t see why a VM shouldn’t count as a device if it requires a license.

As for “it doesn’t count because I don’t rely on it for anything”, well … :rolleyes

BTW, if you don’t believe 400, how many million devices do you think are running Windows 10?

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@ b

If those monthly numbers for ‘active Win 10 devices’ are cumulative, like M$’s Win 7 monthly Patch Rollups, then Noel is correct.

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What monthly numbers? You think they’ve been adding the same devices each month for 18 months? Which part of what Noel said are you saying is correct?

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@ b

Aug 2015 – 75 million active Win 10 devices.
Dec 2015 – 200 million.
Mar 2016 – 270 million.
Jun 2016 – 350 million.
Sep 2016 – 400 million.

” A company spoksperson confirmed the 200 million figure includes Xbox One consoles. And “active” means Windows 10 devices that have been “active” in the last 28 days, the spokesperson said.”

Monthly cumulative numbers could mean that M$ only counted newly activated Win 10 installations during the previous 28 days or only for that month, and add this new monthly “active” number to the previous months’ “active” numbers.
IOW, activated Win 10 installations that had been uninstalled after 28 days or a month might hv been ignored, eg replaced by installations of Win 7/8.1 or Linux or bricked by a buggy Win 10 auto-update.

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Active in the last 28 days doesn’t mean activated in the last 28 days.

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All of Win 10 users would include businesses. ‘Taint likely, McGee, ‘taint likely!

-- rc primak

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Not everyone.

Word games are Such Fun.

Marketers can say virtually anything in the name of business, but people who are advocates for reality receive much scrutiny.

No worries, I consider myself the Chief Marketing Officer for Reality.

And Reality is Too Big to Fail.

Regarding expecting yet another release of a Metro-only operating system to succeed… Look up Einstein’s definition of insanity some time.

-Noel

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212louis, dononline, Elly

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@ Noel Carboni

Noel Carboni wrote:

Look up Einstein’s definition of insanity some time.

And, Microsoft may be toying with *proof of concept* here!

NightOwl

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Noel Carboni

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@ b

b wrote:

I did. Woody didn’t (apparently).

(A little bit *edgy* there–the *Rules* say *no personal attacks*!)

I read Woody’s article and got a different take-away message …..

Woody wrote:

We don’t know if it’s for Intel architecture or ARM architecture machines, or both. We don’t know how the Store is going to change to accommodate the new version (it couldn’t get much worse, eh?). We don’t even know when WinCloud will appear, how Microsoft will “monetize” it, what kind of effect it’ll have on Windows 10.

Emphasis mine.

Woody was not commenting on what architecture this trial balloon software was running on now–he seems to be saying we don’t know how Microsoft will package it if and when it’s released–Microsoft has not said!

NightOwl

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Or they could just be beating a dead horse.

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Hey Anon

anonymous wrote:

Or they could just be beating a dead horse.

And, that might also be considered *insanity*!

NightOwl

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See my previous reference to an article in Liliputing. They have a wider view of what architecture and what apps the WinCloud concept is being designed for.

-- rc primak

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It seems an odd iteration of the Windows we all “know & love/hate or just plain Ho, Hum” Thinking ahead is this going to be the next offering for new computers i.e. lighter, cheaper, with somewhere in the mix of useless fluff that comes bundled with a new system a button to “Upgrade” to a real Win10 (for of course a small fee) limited time offer! It seems to me just lately that every new idea or potential way forward that M$ seems to want to try gets leaked. I could be wrong but I don’t remember so many ways to get advance versions of offerings before the actual release date save the chosen few. Its almost as though M$ is either waiting for the howls of derision or nods of approval before deciding to carry on with development. For most folks the future in the cloud is really a none starter (unless you add the phone crowd). There’s not everyone has the data plans, access and speed to make it viable and of course the “paranoia” of how safe is my data? where’s it going? and what is it being used for?

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Yes. This might be the “free” or “Basic” version, with “Home” upgrades costing $99.00 and “Pro” upgrades costing $199.00. Not a subscription model, yet.

-- rc primak

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Noel Carboni wrote:

And Reality is Too Big to Fail.

Regarding expecting yet another release of a Metro-only operating system to succeed… Look up Einstein’s definition of insanity some time.

-Noel

You contend the reality is that no one would want a Windows Lite on any device because it can’t run 30-year-old programs?

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The reality is that people don’t mind new inovations, but we don’t want to lose what we already have that is working. Some of it works really well for us, not just because we are familiar with it, but because the programs that tout they are replacing them have less features, less ability to customize, and are tethered to subscriptions which require endless payments to maintain.

The “best” and “newest” are rented, not owned, as well as becoming syphons of my private information, data that should never leave my OS or my house. The cloud is a no starter, a reason to avoid a product, not use it.

It may be in Microsoft’s short term interest to cultivate a culture of forever changing dependency and manipulation. It isn’t in mine, or in the best interest of my family, co-workers, or neighbors.

The alternative for consumers is to find and support businesses that are ethical and provide the kind of things I actually need and want (not glittery ad response, but really need and want).

It is amazing that one of the first things the leaders of technology do is to fence in and restrain their consumers in order to assure themselves of prosperity. What happened to providing products and services that people really did want and could use? That worked for them for years. What in the world kind of insanity made Microsoft think it could bully everyone into being suckered for Microsoft’s benefit? It works as long as Microsoft can hide what it is doing (manipulate) in marketing speak… but real people are using these things, and I can tell you that W10 and the cloud are not being used, for well thought out reasons, not just because of failed and endless updating, but because the basic premise that markets consumers rather than a product is a no go. Failure.

It is worse than a failure for Microsoft, because it didn’t only fail a product, because then they could try something else. It destroyed their good name and the trust that people had in them. That is really a break from reality… real insanity… and, yes, they are trying it again, thinking that if they just choke something down the consumers throats fast enough and tell them how good it is for them, that will make up for the lack of real value. Ugh…

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Steve S.

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Could this be aimed at a really big phone? We’ve had phones that act like tablets, maybe this is a tablet that acts like a phone

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Dust off your Surface 2 and Surface RT. RT is not dead, it is just resting.

Microsoft wrote off nearly $1b as an ‘an inventory adjustment’ on RT, and said no more.

This is not something completely different. RT’s successors are the Windows 10 Mobile and Windows 10 IoT SKU lines, which work on devices under 8″ and feature ARM processors. The defining features of what made Windows RT are in Windows 10 Mobile and IoT. Larger screens, ARM tablets and a skinny version of Windows 10 has been talked about recently, so maybe it is RT that will be resurrected. It is not a matter of technical capability or capital, it is a matter of whether Microsoft can execute. Who is the customer, I wonder.

The Circuz is in town. I am looking forward to it.

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Apples and oranges.

Windows is dominant in the Enterprise.

Isn’t that why Microsoft would want a Chromebooks competitor for Consumers/Education?

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You contend the reality is that no one would want a Windows Lite on any device because it can’t run 30-year-old programs?

Well, yeah, actually. Modern Apps don’t do anything useful, and the subsystem that backs them isn’t exciting (looks pretty bloated and sluggish from here). Web browsers already do all of what Modern Apps strive to do.

And no, not EVERY program I use is 30 years old. But every one is – and will be for quite some time – a desktop application.

Let’s see… The Edge browser isn’t going anywhere fast… The included Apps, which should be flagships, are basically junkware… What does the calculator do that Calc.exe didn’t? Rearrange its buttons when you resize the window? WOW! How I just love playing “where’s that button today?” Does the Weather App have an advantage over weather.com? And the big stuff (Office, Visual Studio come to mind) are still desktop applications for some reason…

So, yeah, Microsoft needed to implement an amazing application environment to have UWP succeed – not just another ho-hum also-ran. I honestly don’t see Microsoft doing “amazing” any more.

-Noel

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anonymous wrote:

@ Doc …
“If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it”.

That made me LOL. Really, it did. Scared the dog & almost woke my wife.

I generally don’t do things because I need to. I do things because I wonder if I can, and I’ve been doing it since the 8088 was the new kid in town. The little Win8.1 tablet in question has already suffered through at least two different flavors of Android and, most recently, ChromiumOS. You don’t even want to know what I’ve put some of my other gear through.

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@ Doc

Of course it goes without saying that the saying, “If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it”, does not apply to those who can fix nearly every broken thing n who can replace every thing that they broke, eg billionaires. . ( :

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anonymous wrote:

It is a majority opinion that the only side that M$ are on is M$$$$.

Where are the poll results?

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@ b

Well, according to netmarketshare, even after relentless pushing of Win 10 onto Win 7/8.1 users by M$ for about 18 months, the Windows OS market share of Win 7/8.1 is still more than 50%, while that for Win 10 is still less than 25%.

So, it is a majority opinion that the only side that M$ are on is M$$$$. If not, the market share of Win 10 would hv been more than 50% by now or soon after, ie most the Win 7/8.1 users flocking to Win 10 n people flocking to buy new OEM Win 10 cptrs.

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How do statistics prove opinions of a company (unless specific questions asked)?

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@ b

[Post removed. If you want to get political, there’s a forum for that! -WL]

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Noel Carboni wrote:

Well, yeah, actually. …

We seem to have moved from discussing why anyone might be interested in Windows 10 Cloud to just why you are dismissing the concept for your personal use.

Noel Carboni wrote:

Let’s see… The Edge browser isn’t going anywhere fast…

Edge is actually extremely fast! When did you last try it?
The Best Web Browsers of 2017

Noel Carboni wrote:

What does the calculator do that Calc.exe didn’t? Rearrange its buttons when you resize the window? WOW! How I just love playing “where’s that button today?”

Its buttons don’t rearrange when you resize the window. (Perhaps they did in 2015?)

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anonymous wrote:

What in the world kind of insanity made Microsoft think it could bully everyone into being suckered for Microsoft’s benefit?

Well, IMO, “all the other tech companies are doing it” so they will/have to do it too, thinking that if Google and Apple succeeded, then they will too! For me in 2020, if nothing changes, I’ll take my win boxes offline and will only use a good variant of Linux for web connected stuff. Or, as usually happens (ex: nLite, NTLite,etc.) someone will come up with clever tricks to strip all the junk & telemetry out of Windows so it will be usable for programs & apps that can no longer run on older versions of the OS.

I’m not following MS to their walled garden; I much prefer open spaces and freedom.

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Yes, this entire thread has been hijacked by off topic discussions. Though there are thoughtful and interesting questions being posed about calculators, Windows market share and the Edge browser, they do not have anything to do with this subject. The thread is about Windows Cloud.

Back on topic…

The initial leak indicated that it may be an RT comeback. Naming it Windows Cloud is giving the impression that it will be a tablet based Chromebook competitor. As a leak, it is definitely a ‘disappointment’ as it is merely a rename of a unsuccessful product. In that case, lipstick on a pig is an appropriate reaction. There is a possibility that MS will move with a skinny W10 for ARM processors (as has already been pointed out in a previous post here). This leak may be the real thing and MS may be quite serious about it.

RT tanked so can MS build on it and make it a web cloud system (let’s talk about its viability). Who is the customer (let’s discus where the appeal might be), its not desktop, but it could be suited to tablets and low end laptops (let’s discuss if non x86 and skinny will be the right way for MS to go). Industry rather than Enterprise, entertainment (Netflix and such), cloud processing, cloud apps – can MS attract these entities to ‘MS Cloud’ – do they have the product and services?

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Windows RT was an edition of Windows 8 which didn’t run on Intel. Windows 10 Cloud is clearly not “merely a rename of a unsuccessful product”.

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Then if it is ‘clearly not a rename of an unsuccessful product’, as you say, show us the evidence. What do YOU know that the rest of us do not? I await with great anticipation.

1 user thanked author for this post.

rc primak

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Windows Cloud is Windows 10, not Windows 8. And it runs on Intel, not ARM (yet).

Therefore it is not Windows RT renamed.

But I thought you knew that?

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This is what my reference to the Liliputing article is about. That article explains what those authors think the leaked ISO really means. They cite Mary Jo Foley, but I’m thinking they may have gotten their own hands on the leaked ISO and played with it a bit.

-- rc primak

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Paul Thurrott’s sidekick took it for a quick run yesterday:

Hands On With Windows Cloud

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anonymous wrote:

Yes, this entire thread has been hijacked by off topic discussions. Though there are thoughtful and interesting questions being posed about calculators, Windows market share and the Edge browser, they do not have anything to do with this subject. The thread is about Windows Cloud.

Uh, no, the sub-discussions are pertinent. Let me lay it out for you:

If take on face value the report that “Windows Cloud” won’t run “legacy” applications, but only those obtained from the Windows Store, then what’s left? UWP/Metro/Modern Apps, right?

What UWP/Metro/Modern Apps are delighting and amazing people? In other words, why would someone want Windows without the part that makes it possible to run the universe of useful applications already written for Windows.

It’s my opinion that Microsoft holds its UWP/Metro/Modern platform in too high a regard. It’s not a bad idea to move on from the complexities found in legacy Win32/desktop applications, but… The replacement system actually has to be better, not just different. MAYBE it can turn into something good in time. That’s I’m sure what Microsoft is counting on. But they actually have to work to make it happen.

So… Pile on here – seriously! I really, really want to hear what UWP/Metro/Modern Apps you use and love, which will incentivize you to buy a Windows Cloud system that doesn’t run any of the Windows desktop applications you may have developed a fondness for in years past.

-Noel

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You or your family would never have any use for Windows 10 on a portable device which could do everything except run ancient programs?

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From the little we know at this time (and we are speculating), Windows Cloud is Microsoft’s answer to Chromebooks. In that case we are talking about a potential user who does not use Windows for much more than surfing the web, downloading pictures, does not use office, may have a PDF reader and plays you tube videos. They do not get all the benefits from Windows x86 because they are not using programs designed to work with Windows. Full blown Windows 10, esp. the creators version, is directed at the client who is very serious about entertainment options from the desktop. Many of them will have big rigs and will be expecting a lot more than is currently available to them. It’s overkill for the Chromebook style user.

If MS Cloud gets underway as competition for Chromebooks, they will have an underwhelming collection of non x86 apps to offer the user. Some are popular but most are nonsense. The web browser is going to be another issue. Security, privacy and extensions are very important, so MS will have a lot of convincing to do.

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@ anonymous

from anonymous2

It would be very foolish of M$ to purposely spend money$$$$ to make a new version of Win 10 (Cloud) just to compete against Chromebooks which has a market share of only about 2% = same market share as Linux or Win XP. Should M$ also re-sell Win XP licenses.?

Also, there are already many cheap/budget OEM Win 10 laptops n 2-in-1 tablets that cost as much as the cheap Chromebooks, ie US$200-$300. IOW, there is no real need for M$ to create a Win 10 Cloud that is free n stripped-down like ChromeOS.

So, the more likelihood is for M$ to replace all existing Win 10 with the new Win 10 Cloud via mandatory feature update/upgrade, new installs n new OEM pre-installs n get nearly all desktop/Win32 programs converted to UWP apps at Windows Store, eg AutoCAD, Adobe Photoshop, etc.
M$-website will eventually only hv Win 10 Cloud iso’s available for download.

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Are you assuming your older apps will never be ported to UWP? This may be true for something for which most modern PC users find little use, but for major desktop programs, the conversion should be inevitable. All that is needed is a solid user base and discontinuing of the desktop Home Edition.

-- rc primak

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Its buttons don’t rearrange when you resize the window. (Perhaps they did in 2015?)

I give the included Apps an objective try with every new Current Branch release. So far, every time I’ve done so I’ve decided they’re nonsense and have expunged them from my system. When the “Creators Edition” is released, I’ll try the Calculator App (and others) yet again and let you know.

This was from one of my prior tries…

I don’t bother running pre-releases any more. I have better things to do. What’s strange about that is that this is a lifelong early adopter tech geek who’s been rabid about computing for 40 years talking. I didn’t just suddenly become a stick-in-the-mud. Hey, I run and love Win 8.1. Microsoft just changed the direction of Windows into something unexciting.

Regarding Edge, I didn’t comment on its rendering speed; my comment was about its market share. Unless I’m missing something major, I’m really not seeing a whole helluva lot of support growing for it in the stats published by NetMarketShare. See that little flat yellow-orange line down near the bottom. Sure, it’s grown from 4.32% to 5.48% usage in most of a year. That’s a pretty good indication of “going nowhere fast” as far as I can see, ESPECIALLY if we’re to believe Windows 10’s market share is growing at the rate stated. If you think on it a bit, it pretty much says almost everyone running Windows 10 is abandoning Edge.

-Noel

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Noel Carboni wrote:

I don’t bother running pre-releases any more. I have better things to do. What’s strange about that is that this is a lifelong early adopter tech geek who’s been rabid about computing for 40 years talking. I didn’t just suddenly become a stick-in-the-mud.

If you were an early adopter for 40 years, but not any more, then it seems you did suddenly become a stick-in-the-mud.

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And if it all falls apart, there’s always Linux!

-- rc primak

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AlanH

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Like i said, when it comes to Windows 10, most sites tend to rush, FUD, and post incorrect info

the so called leaked iso is not an actual or true Cloud edition
it’s just a mock-up based on UUP files delivered through insider upgrade
UUP gives files for the known official editions, it also gives a piece of non official editions

so this iso is basically Pro edition with Cloud edition licenses added to brand it, that’s it

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woody, ch100, rc primak

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Still, Mary Jo Foley seems to have additional information about what Microsoft intends to do under the Windows Cloud banner.

-- rc primak

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Paul Thurrott is referring to it as Windows 10 Cloud, rather than Windows Cloud. He states that Cloud will run on both Intel and ARM Processors and it can be upgraded to W10 Pro. It is unclear if you can upgrade from Cloud to W10 Home. He goes onto say that “Windows 10 Cloud is indeed a mainstream Windows 10 product edition”.

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anonymous wrote:

Paul Thurrott .. states that Cloud will run on both Intel and ARM Processors and it can be upgraded to W10 Pro. It is unclear if you can upgrade from Cloud to W10 Home. He goes onto say that “Windows 10 Cloud is indeed a mainstream Windows 10 product edition”.

Correct, but consider the file that Paul uses to make that determination. It’s an internal upgrade file that we’ve seen for many years called EditionMatrix.xml. It shows an upgrade path from 64-bit Microsoft-Windows-Cloud-Edition to (Windows 10) Professional.

Other than this leaked alpha version, we have nothing from Microsoft. No details at all.

Here’s what I find most interesting: The upgrade path noted (which may not appear in the shipping edition) is only 64-bit, it’s only to Pro and – as far as I know – Pro doesn’t run on ARM, and won’t in the near future.

Is Microsoft going to ship a Win32 emulator running on ARM soon? Or is WinCloud Intel-only? Or is the XML file just a stub, and we don’t have any idea what’s happening?

I’ve seen no indication that the Centennial project (Win32-to-WinRT conversion) is far enough along to bridge the gap.

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@ abbodi86

Tentatively, with Win 10 Cloud, users will only be able to install UWP apps from Windows Store. Desktop/Win32 programs/software could not be installed in Win 10 Cloud, unless they hv been converted to UWP apps.
For a desktop OS, that’s a scary thought(not FUD), even though that’s already normal for mobile OS, eg iOS/App Store, Android/Play Store n Win 10 Mobile/Windows Store.

But bear in mind that the history of the mostly non-free or licensed desktop OS began in the 1970s, esp with M$-Windows, while the history of the mostly free mobile OS only began in the 2000s, esp with Google-Android. IOW, their business models are different.

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b wrote:

You or your family would never have any use for Windows 10 on a portable device which could do everything except run ancient programs?

Oh, we do. It’s called an iPad (model 2, we’ve had it since 2011). And my son (PhD student) has been through a number of Android-based phones. He also has two MacBooks, a couple of iPads, and an Xbox.

The only thing that a Windows portable device could offer me – given that I’m someone who spends all day on a Windows desktop system – as an attraction over and above these other devices, which are more mature than Windows 10, would be continuity to run some of the key applications I rely upon. But to be honest, I can make RDP connections into my Windows system from abroad using our iPad, so the water’s already a little muddy.

My son fools with his phone constantly, but I have to tell you, I don’t have to do very much to keep our iPad “just working” (my wife is the primary user). I contrast that with the pretty significant effort I’ve had to put in and MAINTAIN to try to make Windows 10 in my test VM work just the way I want it to. That effort has to be RE-APPLIED quite often, whenever Microsoft releases a new version of Windows 10 and untweaks my settings and reinstalls everything I’ve removed. I am confident that a “Windows Pad” would require a LOT more ongoing maintenance work than what I’m required to do now.

You don’t seem to “get” that Microsoft has to offer things that are BETTER than the others, since Microsoft’s not first, and simply not as mature in the mobile space. No one as of yet has adequately described attributes of UWP/Metro/Modern/Windows Store that are BETTER. It isn’t better just because someone in Sales or Marketing says it is. It’s not fashion. It’s an operating system.

-Noel

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Noel,

I completely agree with you on this. Windows “lite” is not worth something only because it is called Windows. If it is Windows without anything that people uses on Windows + some things nobody uses yet, it doesn’t sound like a very compelling proposition, just like RT.

We will see later how that could change, but I’m with you on one thing. If they want the walled garden to succeed in the mobile space, they need to make maintaining the device a lot easier because right now, Windows is a huge pain to maintain and the only reason we keep using it is because of the reliance on those great apps and basic OS tools (search, calculator, paint, the photo viewer) that might not work that well on the RT device.

Unfortunately for the basic tools, they are being replaced by sub-par universal apps right now and if this is any indication of where all of this is going, it is not going to be good for the desktop user. Seriously, is there anyone here who would say that those apps are superior? The photo app is a joke, not even color managed. The calculator is slow to start, bulky, ugly. Ok, it adapts to your screen, I get that, but just as Java was supposed to initially be the code once, run anywhere thing that will end it all, it didn’t happen because as charming as this idea sounds, it gets more complicated when you actually try to make it work. I plan the new apps to be slow, a bit cumbersome and end up as a UI compromise that will not be that great for anyone.

For a lot of normal users, Windows is not synonym with easy and simple. When they shop for a mobile device, I am not sure that the Windows name will be a positive thing for them. They don’t want another PC to maintain if they tasted anything else.

And Microsoft is not the best company at that. 4K on a laptop is nowhere great like running a retina Ipad or Mac. Scaling is not Microsoft forte. Also, Windows 8 was based on the idea that apps should take up all the screen, what a good concept it was that the windows concept is over, until they got the split-screen thing that was such a progress, let’s put two apps side-by-side with no control over it. It is not a tablet. We need Windows to do some of our work. So we were back to having universal apps in Windows, because you know, maybe windows are useful after all, so now what is left of all this? Scalability, walled garden?

Does the real feature-complete Office runs the same on the new platform as on the desktop? If I just need to quickly edit a word document with Ipad slim Word, not sure Windows Universal Word has an edge. Maybe the promise of this UWP converter will work great, but if Office isn’t already fully converted, it looks a lot like when Windows 8 was out and years later we still didn’t have that new Metro-style Office, because you know what, it is not that simple and maybe it is not as good as the real deal on the desktop. I’m not sure the converter can magically make a non-scalable app scalable without a lot of adjustments, so what’s left? Walled garden?

And how will the companies react to have to pay Microsoft a commission to deliver their app instead of nothing? The walled garden has its advantages, and it makes a lot of sense in many ways to reduce maintenance and security risk, but for it to work, you have a lot to do. To think the traditional desktop is just old legacy for people who are reluctant to change is completely ridiculous. I bet you that a lot of those grumpy old folks can complete a task much faster than a lot of those “come on, let’s embrace change that doesn’t even exist yet” type of folks that don’t have work impacted by these changes. And right now, the change is somewhere else, not at Microsoft. That is the big problem. They haven’t made any compelling argument that they are the best company for the future. Since 8, they only showed that they are very good at trying ideas that don’t work and having to abandon them when they don’t stick to them hoping that one day they will pay off.

If Microsoft don’t understand that before killing the desktop they need to do a better alternative, then they are putting their survival as OS provider at risk because people forced to switch might not choose them and never come back. Just shoveling inferior new stuff down the throat of loyal users is not going to work!

-AlexEiffel

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b wrote:

If you were an early adopter for 40 years, but not any more, then it seems you did suddenly become a stick-in-the-mud.

Heh heh heh, uh, no. I’m not naïve about Windows 10. Not at all. I’ll wager I know how to make the released version sing as well as just about anyone.

http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/ForumPosts/Win10/14393/Tweaked.png

No, I’m actively NOT choosing to use it for anything important – because it’s just not better. Make it better, and I’ll most certainly adopt it. I avoided Vista until the service pack, and I avoided Windows 8.0 until 8.1 was released for similar reasons – based on knowledge. Right now, based on MY needs and MY tweaks, Windows 8.1 is still a better operating system than 10.

I’m not speaking from a position of emotion, but of actual knowledge. And I’m not being paid to spin things.

-Noel

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WildBill, AlanH, woody

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anonymous wrote:

@ Doc

Actually, the Russian leaked 4.2GB iso includes 5 editions of Win 10 Cloud, ie

Win 10 Starter (= Home)
Win 10 Cloud (= Pro)
Win 10 Pro Single Language
Win 10 Ent G
Win 10 Ent Eval

So, the base Win 10 Cloud iso could be about 2GB in size.

The underlaying true edition is Pro for all
you can check it yourself
dism /online /Get-CurrentEdition

only the licensing/branding is added to become those other editions

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@ abbodi86

I don’t think so. Pls refer to this Youtube video showing a brief test run of Win 10 Starter(= like the hobbled Home edition of Win 10), which has less features than Win 10 Cloud/Pro,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVfxsme95vI

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Yeah i know the process, i was not very specific
each of those editions licenses was added to its equivalent actual edition (core/pro/enterprise)

regardless, they still just a wrrapper and not true new editions

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@ abbodi86

What about this Youtube video showing the Russian leaker @adguard running Win 10 Ent G (Cloud.?) and Win 10 (Cloud.?) Starter.?,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEz5_9jhseg

Seems, he/she(like a he) got the Win 10 Cloud iso legitimately by “decoding” the UUP files when he upgraded to Win 10 Insider Test Build 15025.

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I’m familiar with all that
the process is done by adding the new editions’ specific package to current actual edition (core/pro/ent)
the package adds/transform the licensing and branding and allow installing/activating new edition key

this interchangeable licensing concept has been introduced with Windows 10 ver 1607
if you have Pro edition, you can activate/convert it to Enterprise by only changing product key, and vice versa

but the underlaying current edition will be always still the original one

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@ abbodi86

Are you saying that the Win 10 Cloud shown by @adguard is FAKE, ie @adguard had shown a hacked Win 10 Pro.?

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I would not say fake or hacked, rather a mock-up
only the licensing/restriction belongs to Cloud, all other are Pro features

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@ abbodi86

IOW, you are saying that the various editions of Win 10 Cloud Build 15025 are all mock-ups or test-OS derived from Win 10 Pro.(?)

Does this mean the multi-pack Win 7 iso that contains Starter, Home, Pro and Ultimate editions is also derived from Win 7 Pro.?

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Yes, all these “preview” editions are just license/brand mock-ups

no, official Windows ISOs are actual separate editions

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Consumers, or education, don’t use Chromebooks? (Do enterprises?)

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I doubt very seriously every program that could be written to run under Win32 and the ol’ desktop has been written.

“One cannot write good application software for an operating system that is changing every 6 months.”

-Noel Carboni

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rc primak

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The Liliputing article points the way forward for desktop applications. They would be upgraded to work with the UWP platform. The biggest problem in this would be for small or underfunded freeware projects, as they often can’t afford to pay Microsoft for certification of their apps to be allowed into the Windows Store.

-- rc primak

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Actually, schools are starting to use Chromebooks as their entry-level learning machines. And enterprises seem ready to accept ChromeBooks as much as Android Phones.

https://thejournal.com/articles/2015/04/14/3-reasons-chromebooks-are-shining-in-education.aspx

http://www.techworld.com/blog/war-on-error/whats-holding-back-chromebooks-in-enterprise-arguably-its-google-3621735/

http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile-computing/laptops/should-your-business-be-using-google-s-chromebooks-1314532

-- rc primak

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Education, yes. That’s why I linked to: “The key to its success in the past three months has been the education market, where the low price has sparked uptake and the limited capabilities of the machine are seen as a positive rather than a downside.”

Enterprise, not so much; your business links discuss future potential, not current practice:

But here’s the odd thing – finding enterprises or large organisations other than US school districts that are using Chromebooks on anything other than informal scale (or will admit to it) is like hunting blue unicorns. Either they are all shy about the issue or there just aren’t many of them out there.

In the end, every company has to decide if there is a target market with employees who will benefit from the Chromebook. The notebooks work well in education but may not be a fit for large segments of the workforce,

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https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows-10/89948/box-documentation-confirms-windows-10-cloud-can-upgraded-pro

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