Windows 7 is unfit for business? Yeah, sure.

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Here’s my contribution to fake news. You’ve read the headline. This is what you haven’t read. Late last week, the hardware-leaning site Myce published
[See the full post at: Windows 7 is unfit for business? Yeah, sure.]

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Bull****

I’m keeping W7 running until hell freezes over – or at least until I have no choice left in the matter, by which time I hope there’s a choice available.

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It has only been a short time since most large organizations made a huge forced investment to replace the much-loved windows XP with Windows 7. Most large organizations plan much longer life investment spans than this short time.

Good financial management says simply that the Windows 7 investment must last much longer than Microsoft would like.

Very few would consider “upgrading” OS in existing equipment. So, the earliest potential time for such a change would be at the time a large percentage of equipment needs to be replaced.

I doubt most organizations would tolerate a mixed Win7/Win10 environment. So, a change becomes a really major event with huge costs involved.

I doubt Microsoft will be able to justify the investments it wants their big customers to make.

Is there ample evidence of the benefits of the improved security in Windows 10?

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I like how they’re trying to doom-and-gloom everyone into upgrading *now* (or rather, a year ago), when the truth of the matter is, we have updates for 3 more years.

After that, the picture will have become more clear, and we can see where things stand. Until then, jumping to any conclusions does no one any good.

Furthermore, I’m still waiting for this massive XP doom-and-gloom event that MS prophesized about years ago when they cut support for that. “Upgrade now or you’ll be sorry!” Has anyone been sorry? I don’t recall reading about any massive XP hacking scandals anywhere. I’m not saying I’d use XP, I’m just saying – they doom-and-gloomed everyone before, and, last I’d checked, it was FUD then, just like this is FUD now.

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This article from ZDNet just came out today:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-windows-7-in-2017-is-so-outdated-that-patches-cant-keep-it-secure/

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@Woody & @Can. Tech,

The story is also reported here today: http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-windows-7-in-2017-is-so-outdated-that-patches-cant-keep-it-secure/?loc=newsletter_large_thumb_featured&ftag=TRE17cfd61&bhid=20703193368173122880888901483479.

Please note, MS is only claiming Win10 is superior to Win7 in terms of security. At least in the body of the zdnet story, no such claim of superiority exists over stand-alone anti-virus, malware, etc. programs installed on a Win7 computer.

It continues to bewilder me why anybody would want to rely solely on MS for security anyway, especially home users. With a little patience, one can always pick-up an antivirus, etc. program at Staples or Office Max/Depot for less than $20 a year and a five device license. This way, you don’t get hung up on waiting a long time for MS definitions to load, etc., as has been discussed here within the past 10 days.

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So Ms is telling us that for years it has sold us crap. And this should motivate us to buy new crap from them.

Users who tolerate this deserve everything they get.

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“Here’s my contribution to fake news. You’ve read the headline. This is what you haven’t read.”

You saying it’s wrong?

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+1 🙂
Governments, Health Care, Local Authorities, small businesses etc..
Some still run Windows XP/ Windows 7 emulated in order to use specialist software which has not been updated for windows 10.And then there are the new Licenses!!

The transition takes time and time is money, which some can ill afford to do.

If it isn’t broken, don’t upgrade your OS, there are plenty of IT workarounds.

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> “I doubt most organizations would tolerate a mixed Win7/Win10 environment.”

Why not? The organization I worked at last year had Win7/Win10 (as well as some Win 8 and OS X) and it didn’t cause any particular issues.

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“Is there ample evidence of the benefits of the improved security in Windows 10?”

That right there is my biggest problem with how tech companies operate today, we’re just supposed to accept that the new shiny thing is the best just because they say so.

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TonyS, I am with you. Everyone I know who has a Win7 system feels exactly the same way.

Chances are, most of us will dump PCs altogether when our current ones give up. Here come the smart phones and tablets, probably mostly Apple.

Win10 is a shopping and entertainment device. Win7 is a personal computer.

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“Is there ample evidence of the benefits of the improved security in Windows 10?”

Yes:

Windows 10 security: ‘So good, it can block zero-days without being patched’
http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-security-so-good-it-can-block-zero-days-without-being-patched/

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I’m saying that there are many solid business reasons for sticking with Windows 7.

Sent from my Nexus. ?

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My question has to do with the BENEFITS from a financial perspective. I am willing (although skeptical) to accept the idea that Win10 security is better. The big question in a change from Win7 to 10 and the huge costs involved, is whether the benefits can be proven to justify the investment.

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Exactly my point, Woody.

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I am currently in a process to switch over systems to Linux. One year ago i could haven’t even think about it, but now this procedure is more than realistic. Most of the programs runs in internal “clouds” on windows terminal servers, these terminal servers can be reached by RDP with Linux operating systems as well. Yesterday i did a huge step by installing the necessary VPN client on Linux, this gives us the opportunity to have Linux directly installed on the end user device. I am kind of happy that Microsoft did such a change in his behavior of how Windows 10 has been delivered/pushed/snooping to/the customer from the beginning, this opens my eyes that it is time to change my mind and look forward.

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JNP, I could not agree with you more. My 150 client computers ALL have nothing but Bitdefender Antivirus 2015+ installed. For years they had Norton AV. 2 years into BD now, there is a dramatic improvement over Norton. Never a problem. Not a single infection on 150 computers in over 2 years. Never a whimper from BD. Cost was less than $10 per PC per year. These are home PC users. Note well: Not a single infection in over 2 years since I installed BD.

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Zero2dash, I have the same question about XP. In fact, the indications are, XP systems continue to run just fine all over the world, and last I checked, about 15% of Internet usage is on XP systems. I have yet to read about a single disaster and XP has seen no updates in years.

I know from experience that 7 is dramatically better than XP. All of this gives me a lot of courage to remain a Group C user of Win7.

There is a kind of eerie aspect to being in Group C. The life of my Win7 systems is not limited to 3 years. My Win7 systems have already entered their afterlife.

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MS spreading the FUD!

No surprise there.

How low can they go? No answers yet, but it seems like they’re determined to drill through the Earth’s core and pop out the other side.

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“Wenn es wie Fisch riecht?”
thank you many more much, Woody
the windows 7 is humming right along as if it was never maligned and despised by it’s Creator over the last year and a half…
thanks to you and everyone who watches our backs!
ps how do i get to the new lounge?

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And this is according to which independent, accredited testing institute? Oh, that’s right … two Microsoft researchers.

Next they’re going to tell us that W10 users are in complete control of their privacy…

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Bravo! Very well said.

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Steve Gibson of “Security Now” on twit tv is still using XP. I`ll just follow him with keeping W7.

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It all depends.
Sometimes people and in particular cashed out businesses upgrade just not to be left behind or avoid future astronomic costs. It is like taking insurance and paying for something in the future that you might never need.
For example, I am very reluctant to install Windows 2008 R2 any more even if it is well-known and reliable in the same way as Windows 7 is.

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It is not only physical hardware, but also a large number of installations running in Virtual Machines, most of them servers, but VDI adoption has been increased significantly in the last few years. For those types of installations, the underlying physical hardware does not matter.
And those who start new projects on old technologies either have an interest to stay in business by creating a problem in the future which will have to be resolved (upgrading when running out of support and compliance) or are simply lazy.

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Most people here have a limited understanding of the enterprise environments and see things only from their perspective, i.e one or few physical computers browsing the internet and running few other programs like Office.

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Just retired the last XP laptop over the new year. Replaced by Win 7 with XP Mode loaded.

Win 10 was loaded on the new laptop from the factory, but since exorcised.

It is actually Win 10 that is unfit for business; * poor useability at startup while it transfers your digital self to the mothership and downloads the latest microsoft bug infestation
* the whole must update now hassle that trashes user settings
* auto uninstall of applications
* bloatware trash games and advertising

2020 will come and go, but Win 7 will stay on the machines.

Seeing as 10 is the last Windows, I wonder what MS will call their next OS?

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You didn’t even say that before. I was expecting a little more after, “This is what you haven’t read.” than “It’s not true.”

So what are the solid business reasons for sticking with Windows 7?

The original headline was, “Windows 7 support ends in three years”: https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsfurunternehmen/2017/01/16/windows-7-support-endet-in-drei-jahren/
Do you disagree with that?

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New Lounge should be here within a week. We’re currently working on two bugs that may or may not be solvable.

You don’t need to do anything. The new Lounge will come to you. 🙂

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What a load of old rot. Just look at the comments under that zdnet article, users are not getting fooled by these scare tactics. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour from microsoft but that’s nothing new, i remember other senior microsoft employees were making similar claims when 10 came out. Why are they so blind to the bad publicity this is creating? Pathetic.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-windows-7-in-2017-is-so-outdated-that-patches-cant-keep-it-secure/

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Shhhh, Canadian Tech!

Microsoft might be tempted to build a virus or worm to attack those XP machines just to vindicate themselves. After all, they built the OS, they surely know how to bring it down at a moments notice, if they wish.

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“You gotta try it … it’s terrible.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8skzjsaJc8

MS: “It’s what you do!”

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I don’t think they can because they stopped all updates long ago and surely owners would not accept such updates. That is something that I am counting on with Win7 group C

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Of course, current end of life is in three years. The headlines I was referring to are:

ZDNet: Microsoft: Windows 7 in 2017 is so outdated that patches can’t keep it secure

Ars Technica: Microsoft tells corps to remember XP, migrate away from Windows 7 sooner than later

The Next Web: Microsoft wants business users to stop using Windows 7

The Reg: Microsoft Germany says Windows 7 already unfit for business users

And on and on and on….

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So as a Business, all my W7 PCs are now in extended support until Jan 14, 2020. If I migrate all of those PCs to W10 a month before that date, I am back on an OS in extended support within eight months, as W10 AU comes out of mainstream support, Oct 13, 2020. A business case around that fact would not pass muster. Only a 10 year OS life cycle would bolster a business case.

Another consideration is that W10 Pro does not have the same value as W7 Pro and there is no real business case for Enterprise subscriptions in small businesses – even for those that now qulaify. New hardware supporting W10 features is a huge capital cost. Furthermore, only W10 Enterprise Clients benefit from all the advancements in OS and hardware security, so the business case would once again lack a defensible position.

Until MS can produce substantial compelling evidence that W7 is unfit for businesses, there will be more and more that will hang onto it.

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@Can Tech,

I actually take things further. As everything MS is tied together, in some fashion, more about this strategy at a later date, if one wants security, one might consider staying clear of MS programs. I think most of us don’t use IE, or Edge or Bing, all that much but, as a former attorney, I use WordPerfect, not MS Office, for word processing. There exist Office alternatives, some free like OpenOffice, that are perfectly fine, I think, for most home users. And all of these Office alternative don’t seem to need monthly, or bi-monthly, security patches through WU.

So, in a sense, if you don’t use MS programs, that are subject to constant security updates, you are, theoretically and hopefully effectively, making your computer more secure because you are steering clear of MS’s integration of all things MS, with any one of their operating systems, and providing a layer/level where you are doing your work, above any MS OS, that is not directly tied into a MS OS which is subject to constant security updates. It’s like Kramer said on Seinfeld: Jerry it’s all about levels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQyXeLSL0II .

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Actually Windows XP can still get security updates with just a simple registry edit. I have two dual boot XP/W7 systems that get XP updates every month. XP also got its updates a heck of a lot faster until W7 update finally got fixed.

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I’ll take my Win7 + EMET boxes over Win10 any day, with or without EMET tacked on.

As long as the primary intrusion points keep updating (Chrome/Firefox), and there’s AV that updates, there’s no reason to worry about 7. Keep in mind that last year (2016) was the final year of XP support for Chrome. How long has XP been dead again now? And I believe, Firefox still supports XP.

The main cruft of MS’ point is 10 is hardened where 7 was not. That’s what EMET is for. And EMET doesn’t really need to be updated, even though they’re pulling the plug on that too later this year (IIRC). “Edge is more secure than IE”, yeah, too bad Chrome/Firefox are both more secure than Edge, and more useful too.

Again, just more shouting from MS trying to get all that sweet, sweet telemetry data at all costs.

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So then… Let me see if I understand this… Microsoft wants you to move to Windows 10… So they’re not going to provide the proper security patching that they promised as a condition of people moving to Windows 7 initially? Microsoft’s newest operating system will protect us from the hackers and those who would profit from us… But who will protect us from Microsoft?

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Why does this sound like the same old MS FUD farce? W7 is a reasonably secure OS with proper step up as is XP (might be harder to do now). The only reason to sow this nonsense is to get large businesses to pony up for W10 malware-as-a-service.

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@Jsa — “Seeing as 10 is the last Windows, I wonder what MS will call their next OS?”

They’ll probably call it “Linux” … Oh, or maybe because it will be their distro, it will be known as “MSux”.

Hmmmm?

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Dear Mr.zero2dash,
xp eol was on Apr 8, 2014 (except for pos users). As Mr. Hill and perhaps Ms.PKCano can probably attest, updates to xp suffered the exact same updating slowdowns that parallel windows 7 approximately 4 months before April 2014. From what I could tell by monitoring the updating process Microsoft threw the identical supersedence and update server monkey wrenches into the machines. I mothballed an xp home and an xp pro on closing day. When I saw the POS registry hack last year, I brought the xp pro back from the grave and with the flick of a switch (well, maybe a couple of switches) I was updated and running famously… os, mse, IE8, the whole she-bang! or enchilada or whatever brings on a warm familiar feeling… my point? I guess it it to say i miss the era when windows (starting with a 3.11 5.5in. floppy disk) was truly fun to own and operate and tweekishly customize to my late night heart’s content. I would be remiss if I did not thank Microsoft more than anyone else for graciously encouraging me to download Ubuntu 14.04LTS and burn it to a 32 bit Sandisk Cruzer and go to town on having a way around what ever it is that they are trying to do to their huge and formerly loyal customer base. So, here’s to Mr. Woody and all the good folks on Woody’s Ask page that have spent their time and talent in helping us through all the challenges we have faced over the last year trying to have a little more fun. looking forward to easing into to the New Lounge for more computing refreshment soon… cheers

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Harrrrrrr… Linus would get a kick out of that….

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Zing. Well put. I’m sure that’s why a PR post like this would never make it past Waggener Edstrom in the US.

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This is classic FUD from M$ $$$$.

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From its inception, M$-Windows OS for desktops is not a secure system(= was based on bad or insecure coding), as evidenced by the huge number of security updates required, eg the Dec 2016 cumulative update for Win 10 1607(released on 02 Aug 2016) is about 1GB in size(64bit).
……. For true security, cptr users should move away from Windows OS but there hv been no viable alternative OS. How come.? The Illuminati/Freemasons.? US economic hegemony.?

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What are the solid business reasons to move to win10? Just because MS cites things in a sales push does not mean that it’s meaningful.

They talk a lot about increased security and privacy, but they do not include their own malware and spying in that.

The UI has nothing to do with business and everything they are adding (AI,ebook store, creator’s stuff) has nothing to do with business.

The only reason Win10 exists is because MS stopped making money on Win7 — nobody really asked for what Win10 offers.

In fact, the core justification for it — universal platform — has utterly failed to date with respect to phones and the UI was designed specifically for phones.

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+1000, fp

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@ ch100 ……. No, Win 10 is more like insurance for M$’s revenue growth from the sale of software licenses, apps, ads n likely subscriptions also. Hence, M$ want businesses n consumers to upgrade Windows n Office every 3 years, eg Win 95 – 98 – XP – Vista – 7 – 8 – 10, lease of 3-yr Enterprise Agreements n sales of 3-yr Software Assurance/Insurance, etc = more $$$$ for M$. An example of Planned Obsolescence. IOW, Win 98, Win Vista n Win 8 were not really necessary or needed.
.
Win 10 is needed but unacceptable by many bc of many unsavoury new “features”, eg forced auto-updating n restarts, forced Telemetry n Data collection(NSA spyware.?), forced display of ads in the OS, forced 6 to 9 months upgrade cycle(= release of new Versions), likelihood of forced subscriptions, etc. IOW, M$-Win 10 is like a cptr-rapist.
.
Personally, I’m pi55ed at M$ bc of what they hv done to Win 7 since 29 July 2015/Win 10, eg screwy Win 7 Update n Telemetry updates.

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@ b ……. Didn’t M$-shills/apologists say that M$ wanted to get rid of Win 7 by introducing Win 10 as the last version of Windows, in order to save costs by supporting less versions of Windows OS.?
……. So, isn’t it foolish for a business org to support a mixed Win 7/Win 10/Win 8/Mac OSX environment.?

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+ 1
.
= M$ blowing their own Win 10 trumpets.

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+1

HA HA 😀

I wrote a few post here on impulse….
but then decide to not post…
prob not for public consumption…
or general awakening…

anyhow…”to each his own” – prob is the more snowflake-safespace in the west…

p/s dont forget group W
and mayb even a new thing/trend/replacememnt from the east

be safe

back fishing for better dreams

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The original Microsoft Germany article raised about 10 good reasons for businesses to move to Windows 10.

Woody mentioned “solid business reasons for sticking with Windows 7”, but no one seems to be able to say what they are.

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“too bad Chrome/Firefox are both more secure than Edge”

Care to explain how?

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Can future cost benefits of anything ever be PROVEN?

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@ b ……. It’s proven by common sense. Eg buying a new car every 3 years definitely costs more than buying a new car every 6 years or every 10 years.
……. Of course, it is also common sense that a car n its engine should be regularly serviced n maintained, n driven safely.
……. Similarly for a cptr n its OS.
.
Eg a cptr user might hv upgraded from Win 95 – 98 – XP – Vista – 7 – 8/8.1 or from Win 95 – XP – 7. The former paid more in M$-Windows license fees than the latter.
……. Fyi, Win 7/8.1 Ent users did not get to upgrade to Win 10 for “free”, unless they hv already paid M$ for the 3-yr Software Assurance.

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The only big advantages I see in Win8.1/Win10 are boot speed and file copy speed across networks. Perhaps some would say performance is also better due to the death of Aero, but if you want to eke out more performance on Windows 7, you can use Group Policy in an enterprise environment to turn Aero off. I used policies to turn off transparency, fade, and minimize/maximize effects, because they made machines feel snappier to staff.

While I use Windows 8.1 (with Classic Shell) and Windows 10 and find they work fine, I still sometimes see Windows 7/Server 2008 R2 (especially Server) as Microsoft’s finest products ever made, that worked the way I wanted them to. Sure, Server 2012/2012R2 are better in some ways (the new NIC teaming being the stand-out example in my mind) but the old products will work great until they die from lack of security patching, and I think it’s a great exaggeration to say they’re no longer fit for business.

@messager77777777: No matter how secure you build (or intend to build) an operating system, security problems will be found. The huge number of security updates is not “evidence the OS was never secure”, it’s more evidence that now that hacking has monetary benefits, organized hacker/crime groups are working harder than ever before to break things, something that has greatly ramped up in the past five years.

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NoScript/ScriptSafe.

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Yes.

You have your finger firmly on the pulse, fp.

“Patching” Windows is exactly as you have judged: Covering up holes that Microsoft built in to begin with.

And oh yeah, releasing new changes continuously, and instead of system testing them for months or years with a division of trained professionals, getting users to test them instead will really do wonders to improve security and stability.

Not.

-Noel

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I’ve “only” got three years left of support for Windows 7? Man, Windows 7 must be ALREADY DEAD if it only has THREE YEARS LEFT of security and other updates from Microsoft!

That sounds an awful lot like the Pied Piper playing: “Go to Windows 10! Go to Windows 10! Go to Windows 10!”

Sadly, many people are sucked in by that song.

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I, for one, regret the passing of Aero.

Yes, that makes me hopelessly retro and old fashioned. So be it.

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I don’t dislike Aero, far from it. As long as you have a reasonable (including reasonable integrated) GPU and a bit of RAM to spare, it’s great.

But back when I was doing this, we’re talking Core 2 E6400 systems with onboard Intel G/H/P-series chipset integrated graphics, not Intel HD. Every bit of performance I could eke out extra was a bonus.

I don’t disable transparency on newer systems. I do get rid of the fade effects though, it “feels” snappier for every person I do it for. Even if it’s .01 seconds faster, they like it.

P.S. Why Microsoft had to choose light blue for the new taskbars and such is beyond me, I much prefer the dark grey/granite/black for look and contrast.

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That makes two of us then. =) I am an interface customization junkie and there are some quite amazing looking aero themes found on deviantart. I never found transparency/blur around application windows distracting at all, I prefer that over the flat stuff that passes for UI design these days.

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You are not the only one. I like Aero and tried to implement it on a win 8.1 VM yesterday. Utter disaster so far but I’ll try again more seriously later on.

It is too bad the modern UI is bland and utterly boring. I very much like the idea simplicity and a de-cluttered UI but it has gone too far that one direction and at the same time has added more clutter like the infamous office ribbon. IMHO a total waste of screen real estate.

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b,

“solid business reasons for sticking with Windows 7”

It should be fairly obvious. Sticking with Windows 7 has a dramatically lower cost because it continues to use what has already been invested in. It increases the value of the investments previously made.

Not unlike continuing to drive a car that has reached 5 years of age for another 5 years. This is a quite common phenomena in today’s world.

Unless there are omnipresent strong reasons to trade in the old car, which continues to provide good reliable transportation without entailing high maintenance cost, why buy new?

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+ 1 on your reply to messager77777777.

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Oh, speaking of security and somewhat unrelated here: Kaspersky seems to offer a free AV in the Nordic countries. Anyone try this yet? http://www.kaspersky.com/fi/free
http://www.kaspersky.com/no/free
http://www.kaspersky.com/dk/free
http://www.kaspersky.com/se/free

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I much prefer Aero. I have it working on every machine it can. It gives a feeling of smoothness, somewhat arty. A bit of style, instead of sharp invisible edges.

Not retro, just good taste.

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Anyone in their right mind who has ever had anything to do with business could disagree that Windows 10 is better for them.

If Microsoft had anything like a “secure” operating system out of the box I might actually listen to comments they make about security.

As it is, it’s really no better than systems of the past that we could mold into something better than what the Microsoft minions conceived. Now Microsoft strives to block that kind of activity at every turn.

Microsoft’s advertising – even that which hasn’t been slanted by a mis-translation – strives to make us believe that some operating system, ANY operating system – whether oriented to managing files and applications or oriented to downloading games and fleecing its users, is equally viable for business.

Time to wake up.

Not one blasted thing is being done to Windows or has been done since around the time of Windows 7 or Vista, to improve the state of the art of business computing.

Remember things like ReFS? Windows Backup that finally worked and was integrated into the WinRE environment? THOSE are the kinds of things that excite business people who actually have to get their work done and minimize TCO.

Well gosh, wow, THAT’S why so many people are keeping with the old OS versions!

-Noel

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I, for one, deeply regret the old interface whenever I see a 1511 build where you can’t know which Windows is active because some smart guy thought it would be nicer to not put a different color on the title of the active Window and force it on all Windows 10 users. I’m glad they fixed that in AU by allowing you to choose a different color, which is probably the nicest “feature” this build brought.

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@?

Mega thanks for the POS hack you mentioned, I was totally unaware of it and, after locating the instructions from PC World on the internet, I just ran it in my XP/Virtual Machine, which I use for legacy programs that have not run in any version of Windows after XP. It looks like there are something like 69 updates. Again, really, really thank you.

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I have a question.

Microsoft says EMET is not needed anymore on Windows 10 because the protections are built-in and they can’t keep up maintaining EMET. Apparently, it is harder to put the newest security tricks in EMET than directly in Windows 10 to beta tests home users. Hmmm…

But, what happens if you use Firefox on Windows 10 without EMET vs Firefox in Windows 7 using EMET? Is Firefox as safe or for you to get all the EMET tricks “built-in”, you need to use Edge? It would not be the first time MS brags about security improvements which are not active by default. The thing with EMET is you choose which protections you activate for the OS and which for the process. With Windows 10, I doubt MS automatically activates everything for every process as this is known to cause huge problems with some old apps and not so old apps and that is why they provide a list of recommended settings for EMET. Another PR bs from our friends…

When EMET is not supported and doesn’t work with build whatever of Windows 10 anymore but still work on good ol’ Windows 7, which Firefox user will be more secure, you think?

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You’re saying there were issues but I didn’t understand them? What were they?

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I agree. I never had any slowness, but I was always running higher end graphics. I never liked the Rubik’s Cube or Building Blocks of the Metro mobile device disaster.

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Here is one small example:

Many medical professionals I know will not go near Windows 10 because its data harvesting has significant potential to violate patient confidentiality which can lead to legal complications for the practitioners.

For example, my sister is a senior administrator at a hospital in Toronto and they are staying with Windows 7 because they have it sufficiently locked down and they trust the privacy measures they have in place.

Closer to home, my doctor switched from Windows 7 to Apple last year, and my dentist pays his tech guy to make sure that W10 gets nowhere near his computers. Both have the same patient confidentiality concerns as my sister’s hospital.

I haven’t personally been near a large corporate operation since I retired 11 years ago, but I remember that the very large media company I worked for had some well-defined policies and procedures for updating equipment and software, and none of them were dependent upon Microsoft’s or Apple’s OS release schedules but rather what made sense in terms of cost (for several thousand users) and utility to them.

In other words, they make these changes when they deem them necessary, not some software company, and when they are ready to make them.

I could be wrong, but those sound like solid business reasons to me.

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I can see how it’s expensive for Microsoft to support obsolete operating systems, but I don’t what additional expense a mixed OS environment creates for a business which is likely to be transitioning from Win7 to Win10 anyway.

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+1

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If a new car has better gas mileage and lower maintenance costs, can you PROVE that it’s going to save you money?

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Microsoft promised infinite security patches for Windows 7?

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>Can future cost benefits of anything ever be PROVEN?

In time, yes.

I’ve proven, through success, that adopting new versions of Windows up through 8.1 have been beneficial to my business.

It’s even given me a fair bit of insight into what an OS does that advances the state of MY art… Mostly it’s about being able to push aside the frivolous parts (hey, the masses have to fund the development) so that I could get real work done.

On my biggest, best ever computer (workstation, actually) I have been able to do work for YEARS now without worry that it stands to be lost without notice. Of course I back it up and protect it from loss in every way I can. That workstation is running Windows 8.1.

I’ve tried Windows 10. I FULLY reconfigured it and separated the useful parts from the fluff Microsoft has added. I SUCCEEDED in creating a private, functional system from Windows 10 Pro.

But guess what?

Several things are worse. There are several areas I just could not get to be as good as Windows 8.1, which in turn was slightly better (for ME) than Windows 7…

Because of the focus on games, I cannot get a display driver from ATI with which I can properly calibrate my three monitors.

I have found, through two “upgrades” so far (with another coming in March) that I have to REDO everything I’ve done to turn the system into a workhorse. I didn’t have to do that except about every 3 or 4 YEARS with prior versions.

Some 3rd party things that make Windows better – by a LOT(!) – than what Microsoft alone delivers out of the box, just barely are made functional by the time each new Windows version is released.

Therein lies the rub. As a conservative business user, I have adopted – and reaped benefits from – each new version of Windows that was released. Yes, I even got value out of Vista, which at its heart was actually pretty good after a few service packs.

But now, today, I cannot adopt Windows 10. Why? Because it’s not good enough out of the box.

Windows has never been good enough out of the box, but with a few years to make it great it became worth having.

I’m still waiting for Windows 10 to be worth having. Trouble is, while build 14393 is pretty much there (barring things I’ve never been able to achieve, e.g., that display driver issue I mentioned), it’s going to be REPLACED in a few months. Not good!

It’s not the product, but Microsoft’s POLICIES that are killing Windows.

-Noel

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You actually CAN control what Windows does online. It’s just that Microsoft fails to provide us easy configuration options to give us that control.

You can of course disconnect your computer entirely from any network. There will be no telemetry then! But of course the usefulness and interest diminishes as well. And it’s not really clear whether Windows 10 will keep working indefinitely if disconnected entirely. I’ve come to feel that “permanently activated” doesn’t mean what it sounds like it means.

Then there is the possibility to run hardware and/or software in your network to block selected communications, and to let you know what communications are attempted. With that capability, some intelligence, and the world wide web as a research medium, I’ve found that it actually IS possible, through reconfiguration and augmentation with 3rd party software, to control most everything about what Windows tries to contact, yet retain virtually all traditional online functionality (browsing, programs that communicate online, etc.). There have been several legitimate “control panels” made available by 3rd parties that get you a lot of the way there.

And because Windows communicates online via TCP/IP and uses services like DNS to resolve addresses, there is the ability to blacklist sites you don’t want contacted. In fact, it can be done in several different ways, and with security more layers is better.

I have, right now, today, a fully updated Windows 10 version 1607 build 14393.693 system that is as secure and private as any OS I have ever run, yet can:

– Successfully run Windows Update when I want it.
– Update Windows Defender continuously.
– Run cloud-integrated software.
– Browse online safely.
– Support business operations.
– Tell me about all attempted communications.

The trouble is, it’s all going to be reset in a few scant months when Microsoft pushes out their “Creator” build, 1703.

It’s just being disrupted too often. Mere months is not enough time to get used to a system and become really productive with it.

-Noel

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The cost of lost earning time is crippling for self-employed and small businesses. What Noel describes is not achieved in a couple of short minutes a day!

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When you take into account that it was actually Wins 95, 95B, 95C, 98, 98SE, NT, ME, 2000, XP, XP Media Center, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1, & 10, it’s more like one every 2 years or less!

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I use uBlock Origin with Edge, which I believe can be configured to achieve the same as NoScript/ScriptSafe.

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MSux

LOL, good one.

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You are so correct. Add to the Medical profession and all the ones like it like physiotherapists, the legal profession.

Most businesses are going to be concerned about Win10. Problem is many of them will not know or realize the privacy issues and just fall victim.

It will be interesting to see if one of them gets into trouble over Win10

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i love aero and found this nice hack a few years ago>

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/14121-transparency-enable-full-clear-glass-transparency.html

it lets me see behind the open windows (just in case something is happening that i may need to dispense with in task mgr.)

also if you run SFC it kills the customization and you have to reinstall it…

cheers

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you are quite welcome sir JNP, i was excited to know i could keep running my old hp scanner that didn’t have driver for win7, plus i spent 12+ years doing the George Barris (Batmobile) custom job on the os which i still love…
that’s what i love about Woody’s place everyone is here to help and b helped…

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No; but they DID promise security patches until January of 2020 for Windows 7.

It seems reasonable to me that, if they promised the patches until 2020, they should honor that promise.

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“So what are the solid business reasons for sticking with Windows 7?”

* It cost a lot to upgrade to Windows 7 in the first place, in new equipment purchases, and in paying your IT staff to do the upgrade; a business doesn’t want to have to pay that again, especially if Windows 7 is working well for them. If, however, they upgrade over time, then it may well be that it wouldn’t cost that much, because they would have purchased new computers and peripherals anyway, and the new computers could have Windows 10 pre-installed.

* A business may be running a custom software package that is not available for Windows 10. To move to an equivalent Windows 10 compatible system may cost a fortune, because they’ll have to export their data from the old system then import it into the new system (this could take a while), test everything, and then train the users on the new system. If by chance their licensing fees are less with the new system, then that will mitigate this expense somewhat.

* There might not be Windows 10 drivers available for some of their printers and other peripherals (copy machines, etc).

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@?

Have you tried this from Actual Tools? I consider ATB indispensable and it goes well beyond transparency control. For me, it’s the finest add-on to the Win7 interface.

ATB can be easliy tuned for global and for individual programs. Wish I could post some screenshots here.

The Actual Tools folks like my testimonial so much that it’s still posted years later. Best $20 software purchase I’ve made. Makes Win7 even more fit for business.

https://www.actualtools.com/titlebuttons/index.php

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Noel, I have no doubt that you have the knowledge and skills to control exactly what your system does. That’s patently obvious to anyone who reads your comments.

The sad part is that the vast majority of typical Windows users, and even moderately advanced computer enthusiasts, don’t have the same innate capabilities, and cannot button down their computers to the same degree as you.

That said, I really appreciate the valuable information that you and the other gurus post here on Woody’s site.

Thank you, and please keep fighting the good fight! ??

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They will. No question at all that we’ll have security patches for Win7 for the next three years.

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No problem. They will be supplying security patches until Jan 2020. However, to get them, you must take a load of garbage that you would never choose to accept.

You may be able to do security only updates, but I suspect that that will not be the case through Jan 2020.

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No doubt Windows 7 is getting long in the tooth. But let’s also remember that Windows 10 still has a lot of that old code running through it. Let’s also remember that many security patches run the gambit of Windows from Windows 7 to Win 10. While I agree Windows 10 has shored up security better, I don’t think people who still use Windows 7 and follow good security practices are significantly at risk vs Windows 10. Of course Microsoft has seen Windows 10 updates dry up since the free period ended. A case of Windows 10 not worthy of it’s price to upgrade. Maybe their fix should be to go back to offering up a cheap or even free upgrade? Rather than try and sell Windows 7 users a load of lies.

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John, or they can essentially turn all those Windows 7 computers into Windows 10 using Windows Updates. The case for Group W.

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@ b ……. “Time is money.” … More time will be wasted in supporting such a mixed Win 7/Win 10/Win 8/ MacOSX environment n maybe, the business org has to allocate more IT staff as well.

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@ b ……. Like today’s cptr technology, car technological improvements, in terms of gas mileage n maintenance costs, hv already reached their near-pinnacle or peak. IOW, there won’t be any substantial improvements in new cars, in terms of gas mileage n maintenance costs, except for the incorporation of self-driving technology, Internet connectivity n other cptr-related technology.
.
So, common sense still proves that it is not cost-effective to buy a new car or cptr or TV or airliner or container ship every 3 years, compared to every 6 to 10 years, esp for a business/company.

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@ LoneWolf ……. U said, …”@messager77777777: No matter how secure you build (or intend to build) an operating system, security problems will be found. The huge number of security updates is not “evidence the OS was never secure”, it’s more evidence that now that hacking has monetary benefits, organized hacker/crime groups are working harder than ever before to break things, something that has greatly ramped up in the past five years.”
.
Pls refer to these links that prove my point about Windows OS being foundationally insecure …
https://www.wilderssecurity.com/threads/windows-insecure-design.386402/
http://www.itworld.com/article/2767536/security/why-windows-security-is-awful.html
http://www.pcworld.com/article/202452/why_linux_is_more_secure_than_windows.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/22/security_report_windows_vs_linux/

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Another thing, someone mentioned that the German M$ anti-Win-7 blogpost for businesses was likely referring to the much more expensive Win 10 Ent E3 & E5 editions which came with better security service packages via monthly subscriptions, eg Windows Defender Advanced Threat Protection, Credential Guard, Device Guard, etc…
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2016/03/01/announcing-windows-defender-advanced-threat-protection/#ALTeeEH5pw4JimjE.97

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Well, the original press release from MS Germany was released last Friday January 13, 2017 – just a day before January 14. It’s ok from the MS Marketing view – but from a tech view the press note raises many questions. I wrote a German blog post last Saturday. An English blog post with some remarks and thoughts may also be found here:

http://borncity.com/win/2017/01/19/microsoft-announces-windows-7-eol-recommends-windows-10/

BTW: The press release has been removed – I’ve linked the cached version

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Not sure if anyone else has noticed and commented yet but that German MS article has now been removed.

http://news.microsoft.com/de-de/early-goodbye-windows-7-support-endet-drei-jahren/#semyc

“Oops! That page can’t be found.”

(Taken from the Myce link).

Now… I wonder why they did that? Maybe their FUD detectors finally went off big time and woke them up.

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Oops, sorry, Günter.

I’ve just noticed you beat me to it.

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That’s a FASCINATING article.

I’m going to modify my original post here to link to it. EVERYone contemplating moving from
Win7 to Win10 should read that article.

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I certainly hope so!

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@ LoneWolf ……. Fyi, the faster boot in Win 8.1/10 is just an illusion from M$ bc M$ r employing Hybrid Shutdown(also called Fast Boot/Startup), …which is similar to Hibernation mode in Win 7 n the same as Standby mode in smartphones(very fast boot-up after being switched off earlier).
……. IOW, we can also hv the same fast boot time in Win 7 by every time going into minimal Hibernation mode(= no programs running), instead of a Full Shutdown.
.
http://www.howtogeek.com/243901/the-pros-and-cons-of-windows-10s-fast-startup-mode/
http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/what-is-fast-startup-windows-8-disable-it/

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Wow! That article linked from Günter nails it. That’s exactly what I thought. So Win 10 without EMET is less secure than Win 7 with EMET, but MS still officially says EMET isn’t needed anymore on Windows 10 (hear only if you use only Edge and no other program not from MS that would use the Internet or any file from a USB key or whatever that you don’t completely control).

I like how the guy clearly and succinctly express what so many people feel about Windows 10 and SOHO. A must read!

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Noel, I hear ya!

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As CT says, the problem is a lot of them don’t know because why would they expect their OS to harvest their patient data “inadvertently”?

The problem might not surface for a very long time until maybe some third-party that MS shared data with to provide you better service or even MS itself gets hacked and the info is released all at once. If the NSA’s confidential documents about which vulnerabilities they can use for so many products got leaked and sold since 2013 without being public for about 3 years, you really think if MS “forgets” to delete some of the stuff they collect they are not exposed to something like that eventually?

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Bottom line is that there is no case for moving from Win7 to 10 in business. (or for that matter for Jane/Joe Home) In fact there is good case to be made that it is a bad investment.

This fact is going to lead to more Microsoft bad behavior. They are not going to get their way any way but with FUD. The only question is can they get away with the FUD.

One way to help ensure they do not is writers like Woody and publishers like InfoWorld, and the many influencers who contribute to this blog.

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And then I found this:

Microsoft posts death notices for Windows 7 sysadmin certifications.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/19/windows_7_sysadmin_certifications_ending/

We do not want folks to be learning about such an unsafe OS.

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