Windows 10 Anniversary Update 1607 = end of the road for Clover Trail chips, but security patches continue

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No doubt you watched as the drama unfolded: Ed Bott at ZDNet reported on Monday that folks with older Atom Clover Trail based PCs — Atom Z2760, Z2520
[See the full post at: Windows 10 Anniversary Update 1607 = end of the road for Clover Trail chips, but security patches continue]

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HiFlyer

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because Microsoft’s been planning on dumping older versions of Win10 every 18 months.

Sounds like they are only going to 2023 because these computers originally had W8.1 on them. I betcha that after 2023 MS will not be doing that with W10 (or whatever may exist after end of support in 2025).

This may be a strategy requiring you to buy new computers more often (as it used to be in the older windows days) every time a chip set is no longer supported. Then MS gets to sell a new copy of W10 to the OEM.

Windows 8.1 Group B, Brave & Mozilla ESR - grudgingly & Protonmail

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HiFlyer

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This is to keep folks from breaking out the W8.1 disks and upgrading downgrading their computers.  If you still have the original backup disk, yes, you CAN go back to Windows 8/8.1!  Just beware that, in so doing, Windows will install every update ever released on 8/8.1 to your computer, including KB2976978.

Fortran, C++, R, Python, Java, Matlab, HTML, CSS, etc.... coding is fun!
A weatherman that can code

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Yes, that would be the choice for some to downgrade (upgrade) to Win 8.1. I sort of thought that myself, but then again do many have that disc or can they even buy one from the PC maker? I sort of felt like these chips were junk when they came out. I bought a 2 in 1 six months after they came out and felt with Win 8.1 is was slow and lacked any ability to do much more then basic computing. Not really surprised Intel killed support? But still, you have units probably still being re certified and sold which now will only get security updates. Myself, I think its a bad deal for those who bought one of these Clover Trail devices.

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Microsoft provides security updatesto each LTSB build for 10 years, without any feature updates.
That most likely means, that they do have these security patches ready, but simply don’t want to release them to other branches, unless necessary (like in this case).

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Elly, woody, AlexEiffel

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@ Adul

Good point.

The first LTSB edition was Win 10 Ent E5 LTSB 2015 which was based on RTM Version 1507 and supported by M$ until 2025. The second Win 10 Ent E5 LTSB 2016, based on Version 1607/Anniversary Update, is supported by M$ until 2026.
… Win 10 Ent E5 Version 1511 and 1703 cannot be converted to LTSB. The next LTSB Version should be LTSB 2018 (EOL = 2028).

So, it does not take much effort for M$ to extend security updates to the affected Intel Atom Clover Trail Win 10 Version 1607 tablets to 2023. It is miserly for M$ to not extend it to 2025, ie the EOL for Win 10, since that is one of the reasons users upgraded from Win 8 to Win 10.

A certain group of new OEM Win 10 computers that came with Version 1703 may also not be upgradeable to the coming Fall Creators Update. Version 1703 is not LTSB. In this rare case, M$ may not be willing to provide an extension like above.

P S – Many of these very-cheap OEM Win 10 Intel Atom(eg Bay Trail) 2-in-1 tablets came with only 32GB of eMMC Flash storage and already could not be upgraded because of limited free disk space.
… After installation, Win 10 occupies about 20+GB of disk space. Cumulative updates often reach 1.0+GB after only a few months.
… So, people should avoid such tablets like the plague.

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Elly

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This is what I just found out in a ZDNet report. These were actually not very hardware-capable chipsets to begin with, and Intel has given up on supporting them.

Even my cheap-ish ASUS Transformer Book of similar vintage came with the Bay Trail chipset, which will be able to make the Creators Update transition. Eventually, the end of the road for upgrading will be reached for these chipsets as well, possibly within another year or two.

So no, I don’t see any new Feature Updates like the Creators Update being applied to those older, out of support chipsets which have no hardware support for the new feature set.

Those who expected extended device support for such cheaply made devices at the time were deceiving themselves, IMO.

Those with the older chipsets will be stuck on the Anniversary Update, with no new features and no new bugfixes from Microsoft Updates. But security updates will still be offered  as originally promised, until the official end of life of the AU, whenever that will be. So users of these devices will not be left out of Microsoft Updates altogether. That was the false part of the early reports about this topic from some tech sites.

I have no problem with leaving things in this situation. Both for Intel and for Microsoft, the security-only updating for the old chipsets makes sense, and for users, you will still be able to get security updates from Microsoft for the Anniversary Update for awhile longer.

After that, it’s time to upgrade your hardware unless it can run some form of Linux.

My tablet won’t be able to convert to Linux, so in the farther-off future, it will become a handoff to someone else who wants to put up with no security updates. As I have posted elsewhere on this site, I do have some potential takers.

 

-- rc primak

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Elly, ch100

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nope mr anonymous. the next LTSB release of Win10 may occur in 2019 instead of next year.

I’m beginning to like the LTSB releases more than the normal releases of Windows 10. power users seem to like the LTSB editions better.

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@ EP

Thank you for the correction.

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@ rc primak

So, your Intel Atom Bay Trail Asus tablet will likely not be able to receive the coming Fall Creators Update, ie will be stuck at Win 10 Version 1703/CU. That means EOL for your Asus Transformer tablet will be around end 2018. M$ have not yet announced that potentially affected Bay Trail tablets will also receive extended support until 2023. Hopefully, M$ will.

Try this link for installing Ubuntu on Asus Transformer T100TA(camera and Bluetooth will not work), …
http://www.jfwhome.com/2016/01/04/latest-steps-to-install-ubuntu-on-the-asus-t100ta/

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If true, this is fine with me. I could use an updated tablet, and I have takers for the existing one. 2018 is four years or more since I bought the tablet. If the hardware other than the SoC and other firmware survives that long, I would be satisfied with the life cycle of this tablet. And it could then be replaced for a similar amount of money as what I paid for it originally. Thus I could have a true 64-bits system with over 4GB of RAM — capable of using real Ubuntu Linux after MS Windows EoL. I say that’s a sweet deal.

And no, I did not expect this tablet to be able to even make the Windows 10 transition. It was built around Windows 8.1 Home, and now runs Windows 10 AU Pro. All for free, due to a MS Store free upgrade to Pro when Win 10 did not install properly for some reason. Not bad for a $400.00 tablet with only 2GB of RAM.

I would buy from ASUS again, if they have something similar (but with a modern chipset and at least 4GB RAM) in that same price range (street price or MS Store sale price) in 2018.

Converting these tablets to Linux loses some hardware features — not really a good option for most folks.  Not for something so cheap to replace in the first place.

-- rc primak

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It’s about time to stop expecting MS to do “what’s right for users”. They have more than proved that they will do anything that’s convenient and profitable for them AS LONG AS THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT.

And apparently they do. So kvetching about it is meaningless and useless. To put a stop to it requires collective action — a revolt. Without that, complaining and deploring is grinding water.

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Adul wrote:

Microsoft provides security updates to each LTSB build for 10 years, without any feature updates.

That most likely means, that they do have these security patches ready, but simply don’t want to release them to other branches, unless necessary (like in this case).

Exactly, you are right.

I wonder, just like Paul Thurrott, how many “exceptions” to “Windows as a Service” like this have to be offered in the future? How many different old CPUs and their associated chipsets will have to be granted exceptions like this?

Regardless, the response from Microsoft is probably the only sensible thing they can do. They certainly don’t want those people to go back to Windows 8.1 now, right? So they have to offer security updates right up to the end of support date for Windows 8.1. In the words of Ed Bott, “In effect, owners of Clover Trail devices will be treated as if they had installed the LTSB release.”

http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-agrees-to-extend-support-deadline-for-clover-trail-pcs/

For myself, I anticipate that some of my machines will probably need to continue to run Windows in the future. Regarding the LTSB, I have both Windows 10 LTSB 2015 (1507) and LTSB 2016 (1607) installed in virtual machines and on one of my older computers for testing purposes. And from what I can see the LTSB runs every Windows programs I use (e.g. iTunes), so IMHO it can definitely be used in general purpose computers, like Windows 7 and 8.1 (of course whether you can get it is another matter). IF I am forced to go to Windows 10, the LTSB will be the only version I will use.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

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This sucks!  No, I don’t have one of those devices but I feel for those that do – machines that are not really that old but are being “retired” prematurely because <whatever corporate rea$on>; and possibly ending up once again on an already gigantic electronic garbage heap. At least they will still get security updates until 2023 so there may be no need to roll back to windows 8.1

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I do feel sorry for those who were deceived into believing that Clover Trail Atom Processors were a long-term investment. But…

This only sucks if you thought the cheapest chipsets available at the time would be able to withstand essentially four major upgrades. (Win 8.1 to Win 10.0, the Fall Update, the Anniversary Update and the Spring 2017 Creators Update. Come to think of it, the Fall 2017 Creators Update makes five major upgrades.) I think such thinking was akin to expecting something for nothing.

Bay Trail processors at the time they came out were also cheap and low-end, so I feel lucky to be getting as much mileage out of my Transformer Book as I am getting. Well worth what I paid for the device, considering it’s just a glorified tablet (and not very glorified).

You can save money by going with cheap chips, or you can expect long-term upgrade readiness. Never both from the same devices. To some extent, this is the old “you get what you pay for” scenario.

-- rc primak

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rc primak wrote:

To some extent, this is the old “you get what you pay for” scenario.

And that is why I never buy cheap electronics, especially computing devices.

My only exception was a curiosity purchase some years ago of a Samsung Galaxy Tab 7.  I wasn`t expecting much out of the thing but it served its purpose at the time – taking on-site photos of equipment & installations to upload to a work server.

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rc primak

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I feel about the same about my Motorola Moto G4. It’s the last-gen product, so won’t get Android O most likely. So what? It will get security updates, and frankly, the fewer features it gets added on, the better for me. At half the price of the G5 at the time, I can afford to replace it in a couple of years — and hand off this phone to someone who doesn’t care about even security updating. Again, I have several candidates already.

-- rc primak

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Not to be all anti-Intel but they have a record of doing this sort of thing.  Integrated graphic chip-sets from the Pentium M days for example.  Its funny, that my old AMD Trinity APU form 2012 still can run the latest Windows 10 but my Intel BayTrail from 2014 cannot.   Both low-end budget chips but the smaller company (AMD) still provides drivers.

Not saying AMD doesn’t do the same thing, my HD3870x2 graphics card got abandoned very early in its life.  Their only possible excuse, and not that acceptable to me, was that they just purchased ATi at the time and were probably cutting the budget.

Now that AMD is back in the performance game, maybe they will wake the sleeping giant (Intel) again like they did back in 2006.  Competition drives innovation.

 

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But if you have entire generations of people who expect to use computers in the absence of ANY knowledge about them you cannot expect them to understand that. Money was made selling those computers that were attractive on price and their buyers who were unaware of it were essentially exploited.

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rc primak, Elly

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An uninformed consumer is always the Devil’s plaything. This situation is hardly unique to PC chipsets.

-- rc primak

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I can’t wait to explain away this goatfest to some of my clients. Once again, the consumers lose.

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HiFlyer

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Fine by me, I don’t expect my Win 10 machine to last much beyond 2023. I have 1605 on a cheap laptop and I don’t want endless ‘upgrades’ from MS. So I set it to metered connection to avoid huge (+ auto) updates but also get notice when there are any.

So far, though I am warned of <GB update/s available, they don’t come down with the small size updates when I DL manually (on metered connection).

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I don’t expect my Win 10 machine to last much beyond 2023.

I still have and use quite often a computer that I bought with Vista (when it first came out I think I bought it in 2007 or 08) I then upgraded it to XP and later W7 which it is currently on. All I did is upgrade the chip and memory to the max that the mother board allows and it does everything I ever need it to with no problems (I guess I am one of the few who still does things like that) I will likely have it until 2023 (if I downgrade to 8.1 to keep the security updates) and maybe beyond with Linux.

Point is that unless you need the fastest new technology for things like gaming, computers can last a long time now that the technology such as RAM and processor speed has come to a saturation point of sorts for normal things such as internet browsing and office work. There is no need to keep upgrading hardware. However, without some sort of planned obsolescence, the OEM’s and Microsoft doesn’t make as much money so they need to find a way to force you to buy something new by stop supporting a chipset because:

it MAY mean that device will not be able to properly run a future Windows 10 feature update

Then again it may not. Let the owner of the computer decide if it is ok…. o wait, MS won’t let them refuse an update in W10 if it doesn’t work properly.

Windows 8.1 Group B, Brave & Mozilla ESR - grudgingly & Protonmail

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Elly

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Let the owner of the computer decide if it is ok…. o wait, MS won’t let them refuse an update in W10 if it doesn’t work properly.

It’s not like Microsoft can agree to upgrade hardware on which the upgrade won’t run properly if at all. Think how much people would complain if an Automatic Upgrade made their devices into a brick.

You can’t write drivers or firmware for chips which haven’t got the features required for the upgrade to work.

-- rc primak

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So, have your software detect that is missing that new feature (SSE5 For example)  and don’t use that feature on the older hardware.  Software has been doing that for years why is it suddenly not possible?  Its not like Windows is getting smaller with this drop in support.  If you want small, go to a specifically compiled Linux kernel for your hardware.

With Windows Microsoft has been working to slowly monetize everything, even driver development.  Individuals cannot even attempt to reverse engineer or hack together a working driver for older hardware because of driver signing.   Unless, they pay Microsoft for the privilege of supporting their OS.

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rc primak

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The way M$ is going, however long my laptop lasts, I will probably have to get acquainted with Linux sometime soon.

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I seem to remember that M$ was recently bypassing or making redundant the metered option. Is this still available to users to hold off the unwanted updates?

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AFAIK it will continue to work as long as connection is via wifi. Don’t know why.

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Reply:
https://www.howtogeek.com/226722/how-when-and-why-to-set-a-connection-as-metered-on-windows-10/

Whether feature updates or Version upgrades are considered as critical for metered connection by M$ is still an open question, ie the confirmation will only come with the Fall Creators Update.

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Version 1703 allows you to set a wired connection as “metered” BUT…

There are reports of 1703 installing large updates over metered connections, including KB 4022725. Microsoft says it will allow downloads on metered connections when the updates are “required to keep Windows running smoothly.”

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Yeah, they’re for certain the folks, who knows how to keep Windows running smoothly…

Maybe my buddy here should change to metered wi-fi?

Oh wait!

He can’t since Microsoft has rendered his machine into a BSOD brick…

Sigh…

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Quoting from the zdnet link …

However, these systems are no longer supported by Intel (End of Interactive Support), and without the necessary driver support, they may be incapable of moving to the Windows 10 Creators Update without a potential performance impact.

Many other examples of 2013/2014-released Intel processors with “End of Interactive Support or EOL” – Win 10 also cannot be upgraded? …
http://ark.intel.com/products/series/76761/Intel-Atom-Processor-Z-Series
http://ark.intel.com/products/series/77772/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G-Series
http://ark.intel.com/products/series/90613/Intel-Celeron-Processor-G-Series

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HiFlyer

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… more
http://ark.intel.com/products/series/79666/Legacy-Intel-Core-Processors
.
http://ark.intel.com/products/series/75025/4th-Generation-Intel-Core-i3-Processors
.
Many 2009-to-2013-released Intel processors are EOL, ie around the same period when Win 7/8 was released in 2009/2012. About 400 million Win 7/8/8.1 computers were upgraded to Win 10, either willingly or by hook or by crook. So, such computers with Intel processors running Win 10 should number in the millions.
… This means such EOL’ed or non-Intel-supported processors may not be upgradeable, just like the Intel Atom Clover Trail tablets being stuck at Win 10 Version 1607.

The tablets were running fine under Win 8/8.1 and Win 10 Version 1507/1511. The question is, did M$ purposely make the Intel Atom Clover Trail tablets un-upgradeable from Win 10 Version 1607 to 1703.? If the answer is yes, M$ will likely do the same for other Intel processors which have reached EOL, eg a few batches at a time.

Looking ahead, if we buy an OEM Wintel 10 computer today(= 2017), its Intel processor may reach EOL in 2021, ie after 4 years = may not be upgradeable wrt Win 10 Versions = EOL for Win 10 in early 2022. Whereas, the general EOL for Win 10 is 2025.
… So, this is likely the coming business plan by M$ for ‘Windows 10 as a service’, ie Planned Obsolescence. IOW, M$ will be preventing consumers from using Win 10 Home or Pro for about 10 years, like they used to do with Win XP/Vista/7/8 Consumer editions. It will be 4 to 5 years from now on for Wintel computers running Win 10 Consumer editions, just like for Apple’s iOS’ed iPhones and iPads.

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Bill C., HiFlyer

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Before I saw this #125688, I thought I would verify what I already knew – that my i7-960 CPU released 4Q of 2009 was at minimum End of Life (EOL). It is also at End of Interactive support. The Intel Extreme MB has been EOL for years.

Interesting that MS GWX fully targeted the machine and the MS Upgrade Advisor still says Win10 will work. Not that is matters really.

I also know that this machine works well with Win7Pro-64 and is very fast with Linux and I have yet to find a Linux Distro that did not work off of Live Media (DVD or USB).

Supporting a company with an OS that limits the hardware service life of a fully functioning machine is like buying a car with the knowledge that you will have to take it out of service when the tires wear out. But if you do, there is always hardware life after WaaS if you want to change the OS.

It is this thinking that has made me determined to fully avoid any “smart” appliances or household items.

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Where does this leave refurbished PCs currently on sale with Win 10 pre-installed, say one that has a 3rd gen. core i5 CPU?

As far as I can see from the Intel site anything older than a 4th gen core cpu is history in Intel’s eyes, anything older is a legacy product.  Does this Clover Trail case imply that someone with modest PC needs could (in good faith) buy a refurbished PC (with an old but adequate cpu) running Win 10 and then find in the very near future that they’ve bought a doorstop?

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HiFlyer

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Core-i series chipsets are much more robust than Atom chipsets. They likely do have the hardware features necessary to be successfully upgraded to the Creators Update. Anyway, I haven’t read anything about these chipsets not being allowed to upgrade. And I don’t see many reasons in the chips which would prevent successful upgrading. Other hardware in very old devices, on the other hand, might present issues.

This happens with any major OS upgrade. It is not anything new. Atom chips are a special case, having been the least-capable Intel chips manufactured at the time.

-- rc primak

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I wouldn’t worry too much about refurbished machines.    By 2023 (end of win8.1 & some win10) your current refurb might be in need of replacement so the high-end machines of today will be the refurbs of tomorrow. I buy them all the time and if there’s one thing I’ve noticed over the years is that they are a dime a dozen!   Any large city has some distributor or big-box store selling refurbished computers. Government, university, hospital  surplus is always available somewhere. And usually those machines are in good shape and entirely useable for many more years.

As to which windows version, if any, will be supplied with those refurbs, that’s anyone’s guess; we ain’t seen the end of the WaaS saga, not by a long stretch!

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Elly

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I have found refurbs to be a great deal., but they were Win7-64 Pro machines or newer Win8.1 with a downgrade license for Win7 that had been downgraded for a corporate purchase/lease. I have bought them for personal uses and also for some colleagues who wanted to try Linux or use them with Win7 for Media PCs, or have a backup.

The majority have been Dell and Lenovo laptops with one HP AMD desktop. The HP was the only one needing a repair (new MB) which I swapped in suing the original CPU. It did not even need a new install of Windows Vista. It is now a Linux desktop for photo editing and backup email access.

Playing with refurbs and donor computers has been very educational for testing & debugging, and installing/testing new software and hardware at a lower cost and risk.

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Elly

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If MS keeps eliminating chips for Windows 10 they will run out of computers for their FLAGSHIP!

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Rock

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I do not see this as Intel’s fault what-so-ever. Neither are the OEMs to blame. None of these systems were sold with Windows 10 pre-installed on them. The existence of these systems was a marketing decision at the time to expand the Windows 8 footprint on low cost tablets. They were later upgraded to W8.1 to address the shortcomings in W8. Microsoft determined that these systems qualified for the free upgrade to Windows 10.

I’d say Microsoft, Intel and the OEMs already knew that a patch was not going to fix it, however they chose to not disclose it. The owners of these systems were misled because they it was believed that drivers were being worked on.

The compromise that Microsoft has proposed is not what they would have offered if it were not for Ed Bott’s article. That must have shocked Microsoft to the core. Et tu Benedict Bott.

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Elly, HiFlyer

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This problem occurs because of a fundamental incompatibility between the PC hardware and the latest release of Windows 10.

Microsoft KNEW that this would happen if they forced Windows 10 upgrades onto older PCs; yet they did it anyway. For example, my father-in-law has an older PC which had Windows 7 on it. I put GWX Control Panel on it; in spite of that, Microsoft forced Windows 10 onto his older PC. And as sure as the day is long, one of these days his older computer is going to become unpatchable or maybe unusable, because Microsoft made him an unpaid beta tester without his consent.

I would not object to Windows 10 if it were not forced onto unsuspecting, non-technical people’s computers. What Microsoft has done here is unconscionable.

I would love to see a class-action lawsuit, in which Microsoft is forced to provide a free copy of Windows 7 or 8.x to everyone who was auto-upgraded to Windows 10, and where Microsoft is forced to provide security-only (“Group B”) updates via auto-update until 2020 like they promised for ALL computers which came originally with Windows 7 (and until 2023 for Windows 8.x).

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Elly, Bill C., HiFlyer

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My complaint is Microsoft sold everyone on this ideal of free support for life of device. Microsoft never said as determined by Microsoft or its partners on how long that life is.

I think its clear we must accept the plan of Microsoft’s which is planned obsolescence for hardware and devices. Its a plan to keep all of its partners happy selling you new devices.

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Intel says the Clover Trail Chips are past their end of life.

That’s the end of the life of devices built around them.

I think these devices are out of manufacturer warranty, so the definition of device end of life seems to have been met on all fronts.

The concept here is really end of  manufacturer *support*, not end of life as in , the machine won’t boot anymore due to hardware failure(s).

And yes, when they used such cheap chipsets in some devices, manufacturers knew these devices would not withstand six major OS upgrades. They probably were surprised that even four major upgrades worked on these cheap chipsets.

-- rc primak

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John in Mtl, AlexEiffel

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Think your right, people who buy these devices are not given guarantee’s on complete support and everything has a EOL date. Kind of bad if you buy a new devices close to this EOL support. But I generally recommend to people myself is don’t buy cheap bottom end CPU’s. Atom’s Celeron’s are not going to provide good current performance, and they won’t hold up long term in EOL. At least buy a Core i3 or higher and try to only stay one generation behind or less for longest support. This could also be a issue with so many off lease products being refurbished and sold. Its hard to say what hardware will become obsolete next.

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Read it again.
There was a big debate about this at the time when Win10 came out and GWX was pushed.
Microsoft said “the supported life of the device.”
People read for “the life of the device.”

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rc primak, Bill C., woody, AlexEiffel

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Great minds think alike. We tied by one minute for the same answer. 🙂

-- rc primak

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woody

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It’s not as bad as the fragmented mobile OS Android which doesn’t have a good track record on supporting devices. Some do some don’t and even Microsoft killed some of its own phones in Win 8 support which I remember getting like 7.5 or 7.8 version. Kind of rubbed me the wrong way as if they were saying. Well we almost gave you 8.0 but nope you just missed it.  Chromebook’s now have begun to end support updates for some older devices including the first Pixel laptop. Google claims 5 years of support is all that is guaranteed. So the trend is pushing  to upgrade devices more frequently to maintain support. For many who have run Windows forever like myself, this is new considering how long XP was supported, and Windows 7 is still supported. I have no doubt that a good premium device will be supported but the question more revolves around cheaper devices and possibly a shorter planned obsolescence. Are they truly, throw away’s or destine for a Linux desktop conversion to stay updated?

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PKCano wrote:

There was a big debate about this at the time when Win10 came out and GWX was pushed.
Microsoft said “the supported life of the device.”
People read for “the life of the device.”

I would have no problem with this except for one thing: Microsoft FORCED Windows 10 on lots of computers. In my view, that should make it “the life of the device”.

If they didn’t want to own it, they shouldn’t have forced Windows 10 onto unsuspecting people’s computers.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Elly

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Paul Thurrott has a very good article on this and especially why Windows as a (Dis)service is untenable and failing. It is a premium article, but if you just register without becoming a premium member you can read 3 premium articles per month for free.

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Elly, lurks about, woody, HiFlyer

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I might sign up on the Thurrott site to read the whole article, Pim.

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Thanks Pim, Paul basically noted either MS will have to make numerous exceptions to keep the wolves at bay or risk alienating even more users. Making all the necessary exceptions means the idea of W10 fails

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It’s quite simple — with the Free Windows 10 Upgrade you get what you pay for!

Shame on Microsoft.

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HiFlyer

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Does Microsoft really do anyone with a Clover Trail a favor here only providing updates till 2023? Maybe not an issue with a OS such as Windows 7 that did not have six month updates of features and improvements. But Windows 10 who wants 1703 or whatever until 2023?  Also I ask what becomes of AMD’s lower cost chips down the road, or Intel Celeron’s? What’s next for hardware extinction according to Microsoft. It does bring to mind that maybe cheap devices have a built in expiration date of around 5 years. Planned obsolescence?

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Elly, HiFlyer

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I bet older Celerons are next to be kicked to the Windows Upgrade Curb.

-- rc primak

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HiFlyer, John in Mtl

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Do Linux users have to deal with this kind of a problem?

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Yes! I trashed my Toshiba Satellite laptop when Ubuntu 16.04 made it intensely difficult to reverse-engineer the kernel and restore support for Intel-NVidia hybrid graphics. This was based on Intel Sandy-Bridge technology, which also did not support some of the newer Linux and Windows features (including Miracast on Windows).

So yes, Linux upgrades can make life miserable or even impossible for those who bought hardware which was not top of the line or which was not perfectly pure mainstream at the time. It just seems to take longer for Linux to drop support for older hardware — usually much longer than Windows.

-- rc primak

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Elly, Bill C., HiFlyer

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Agreed.  Linux is much more tolerant of elderly hardware.  I purchased my principal HP Pavilion x64 system with NVIDIA graphics and Vista (x64) back in 2008. At that time it was a top shelf system.  When Vista reached EOL I installed Mint 18.1 (x64) and also the most recent drivers from NVIDIA.  So far, everything is working smooth as silk.  I’m a happy camper.

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Elly, HiFlyer

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Unfortunately, this is true.  Microsoft spends a great deal of time and money trying to ensure backward compatibility, which no doubt is a big part of why Windows took the world by storm in the 1990s.  It’s the reason that Windows 9x was a hybrid 32/16 bit system; it allowed the large Win 3.x software libraries some had to run natively on 9x, while gaining many of the benefits of 32-bit at the same time.  It took a few years for MS to work out WoW16 and get it to the point that it was ready to run 16-bit Windows programs on the NT core (they had not been able to run on NT 4.0, as I remember).  Once it was possible to run 16 bit code on NT, there was no longer any need for 9x, and by the wayside it went as XP (NT core) arrived for home and business users alike.

The Linux world typically makes no such efforts.  If an API no longer suits what they are trying to do, they change it.  They reason that most Linux software is open and can easily be recompiled for the new platform by the distro maintainers (as far as applications; lower level utilities and drivers may be another thing), and as for binary code (like the binary blobs in the nVidia and AMD closed drivers)… well, too bad, really.  Because the code in a given proprietary video driver is precompiled (the wrapper gets recompiled when you install a new kernel, but the guts of the binary blob don’t), it doesn’t change when the kernel changes and the Xorg version changes and all that kind of thing.

As I remember, there are three or four dependencies that have to be met before installing a Linux nVidia driver, and they tend to be ranges of releases that are usable rather than “Vista on up” like Windows.  An Nvidia driver may be good with Xorg 1.12 through 1.15, but no earlier or later than that.  At the same time, ranges for all the other things have to be satisfied too, and if you have older hardware for which there has not been a driver update in some time, it could very easily be that you cannot find a driver for your device even though it has Linux drivers and you’re running Linux.  All the ranges end up being what was current at the time the driver was released.

Open source drivers that are no longer maintained for a given platform can have similar issues.  I think what would happen here is that the official open source driver (which for nVidia would be Nouveau, as an example) stops supporting the hardware you need, so again you are stuck looking for older drivers.  I’ve never actually had that happen, but I would guess that it would depend on how much the kernel, Xorg, etc., have changed since the driver release you need.  Unless you or someone you know can rework the code in the older driver, it’s not going to work unless you use an older set of (whatever items the driver is dependent on).

Linux’s way is probably the correct one in terms of reducing bloat, but the relatively short useful life of precompiled code almost certainly severely limits the adoption of Linux in enterprises that rely on closed-source code (and as a corollary, it reduces the availability of precompiled code, a hallmark of closed-source, on Linux).  Richard Stallman’s disdain for the very concept of closed source software can be seen in the GPL that he wrote, and it keeps a lot of software devs away from Linux.  It’s why Ballmer compared Linux to a cancer… he specifically meant the GPL that requires derivative works that include GPL code to also have their code released under the GPL.  Closed-source companies want to stay a long way from that possibility.

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rc primak, AlexEiffel

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That was me…

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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Bill C.

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Ascaris wrote:

Microsoft spends a great deal of time and money trying to ensure backward compatibility, which no doubt is a big part of why Windows took the world by storm in the 1990s. It’s the reason that Windows 9x was a hybrid 32/16 bit system; it allowed the large Win 3.x software libraries some had to run natively on 9x, while gaining many of the benefits of 32-bit at the same time. It took a few years for MS to work out WoW16 and get it to the point that it was ready to run 16-bit Windows programs on the NT core (they had not been able to run on NT 4.0, as I remember). Once it was possible to run 16 bit code on NT, there was no longer any need for 9x, and by the wayside it went as XP (NT core) arrived for home and business users alike.

This used to be the case up to and including Windows 7. With Windows 8 they began moving away from that model. It appears that they have largely abandoned it with Windows 10.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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@ rcprimak

Linux, being a free OS developed and supported by volunteers, lacks resources and seldom has out-of-the-box support for non-mainstream and very proprietary devices, eg hybrid graphics, graphics tablets, USB Wifi adapters, dual-drives, Wintel Atom tablets using 32bit UEFI, PowerVR GPU, Broadcom Wifi cards, etc. So, support for such non-mainstream and very proprietary devices usually comes later or may not come at all, eg …
https://askubuntu.com/questions/908029/ubuntu-16-04-keeps-using-intel-gpu-in-optimus-system

Good thing about Linux is that we can test-drive the OS on our computers by booting from a Live Linux DVD/USB-stick, esp to check for hardware compatibility before proceeding with an actual install. We should not install Linux if our hardware is not compatible or there is no out-of-the-box support.
… We cannot do that with Windows, ie do a test-drive and check for actual hardware compatibility.

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rc primak

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I can relate to that. My old AND machine would absolutely not run any Ubuntu over 14.04 due to the AMD on-CPU chip graphics driver. Doing the various fixes found in the Linux support forums led me to the wall of my Linux knowledge at the time so I just tested and tested alternative live systems until I found a distro that worked. It is now running LXLE successfully for over a year. It is reliable as long as I stick with the OOB install. I have found some of the software from the repositories is also limited by the graphics and needed to be uninstalled.

In all fairness, it really is an OBSOLETE machine circa 2005, so it continued existence is more on principal than need. The MB still supports IDE drives, so the fact is not too slow is a testament to lightweight Linux.

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Elly

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I have a perfectly working Sandy Bridge with Intel HD Graphics 3000 + NVidia and Windows 10 1703 Dell XPS L502X.
The only widely known issues encountered with this laptop were with NVidia which needs under-clocking, otherwise it tends to crash. Underclocking affects only the 3D speed, while the normal 2D graphics speed is not affected.
There is another issue with Intel dropping driver support for another graphics acceleration feature which I have never used, while the core functionality is supported by Microsoft on Windows 10 taking over from were Intel stopped.
Gamers are obviously better served by the latest hardware, regardless of legacy issues encountered or not with older hardware.

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rc primak

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Yes, Linux has regressions as they call them. One release you have support, the next you do not. Many times this is fixable but sometimes not. Let’s face it, everything has limits to support and eventually their is so little reason to support them that its too much effort to do so. It hampers progress so much to continue to try and support the hardware. But here’s where Windows and other OS’s are changing. It used to be you bought a PC and you could run for 4 or so years and basically do updates and you could upgrade to a newer OS but it was optional. These days its going to the model of everything upgraded to current levels. If your hardware or software doesn’t cut it, then it becomes obsolete and you are given little choice but to upgrade the device. Is this a scam to get you to buy, or just a reasonable way to keep users safer and have a better experience overall then trying to support old technology. I guess we all must decide, but it appears that its going the direction of planned obsolete devices.

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rc primak

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Short answer is yes but I have noticed that older hardware tends to be supported better in Linux. Also, there are distros that try to be better suited to older hardware than some of the better known distros. Some distros have stopped providing releases for 32 bit hardware. For more info go to distrowatch.com. So while a distro may not work on an older box there are likely to be others that might.

My experience is many common Linux distros will run on some very old hardware fairly well.

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rc primak, Elly

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I think MS did the right thing. I am a bit surprised, but I must say this is a very good way to respond to the problem to offer security updates that don’t cost them much because they already have them for the LTSB AU version. Smart!

Some could even see all that as a positive and almost wish they bought those computers if it wasn’t for the bad performance, because they get some kind of LTSB for free, they now have access to a stability no other home user have access to, which is great if you don’t use store apps at all and don’t need the latest VR improvements.

I would be happy to have my Win10 security support for AU and no forced feature upgrades until 2023 on my work computer, with no MS to distract me from my work with their latest toys.

Imagine if the hardware companies started to drop support faster and it made MS offer the equivalent to LTSB often to some aging computers. Interesting. However, there is a problem with all that. If the world moves to store apps as MS intends to, and for some reasons those always upgraded to the latest version store apps end up not being able to be run on the LTSB version, it could create an issue. It is one thing to be able to run the same desktop app with security updates on the same Windows with security updates. It is another to be like in the IOS world where if you can’t update your app no more, you don’t get any security update either.

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A consumer LTSB version of Windows 10? Wow — there’s a disruptive concept! It probably won’t happen, but it is a very different approach to what’s going on now — and one I also would welcome.

In Linux I am on their LTS branch. I kind of like not having to set up Linux all over again every six months.

-- rc primak

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Elly, AlexEiffel, HiFlyer

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Far as I’m concerned, Microsoft was confronted with a lose-lose situation.

What worries me isn’t the decision. It’s the fact that this sort of problem is entirely predictable — and apparently nobody thought about it earlier.

Windows as a Service is taking a big hit. As I said years ago, you can’t patch the desktop like a phone.

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rc primak, Elly, AlexEiffel, lurks about, Bill C.

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I’m afraid it is no longer a desktop anymore 🙂

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AlexEiffel

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Woody, it seems like MS never thought through the nuances of WaaS for W10 and its impact on users who are their customers (if indirectly). Many have observed that WaaS was a very risky idea for many reasons. Paul Thurrott noted that this will be probably be the first of numerous exceptions to WaaS if MS continues with their idea of releasing a version with new features every 18 months. This could end up being a nightmare for hardware and software vendors as it is quite possible for there be not 2 versions in the wild but 5, 6, or more at any given time. This will make the complaints about Linux fragmentation seem silly because the MS fragmented Windows.

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rc primak

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There is not much use for LTSB on a general purpose computer, but this is a discussion for another time. Otherwise, this is the way how Microsoft will support those legacy computers.
What is the purpose of running full operating systems on slow computers though?
I had a Dell Mini a while ago and beyond being an amazing piece of engineering, it was of very little use with only 2 GB RAM and slow Atom CPU 32-bit only running Windows 7.

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rc primak wrote:

A consumer LTSB version of Windows 10? Wow — there’s a disruptive concept! 

@AlexEiffel, @rc primak et al,

Hum… I bet we could eventually see a hack for tricking  (example ver 1607 discussed here) Microsofts’ WU systems into beleiving you now have “unsupported hardware” and stay “stuck” on a current version on a machine; thus giving you esentially an LTSB version.  All this is assuming of course, that you don’t need new features that are offered and are satisfied with the OS as it is and will remain.

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AlexEiffel

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@ John in Mti

Yes, someone needs to spoof this tablet, pronto.

“How to convert Win 10 Home to LTSB”.?

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I wasn`t just referring to this processor in that product only.  This will probably not be a one-off exception, there are likely more situations like this to come.

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@ John in Mit

There is no confirmation yet that M$ will offer the same EOL/support extension to future similarly affected Intel processors.

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You can achieve it yourself by just killing the bloat, disabling WU, running ShutUp and SpyBot Anti-Beacon and take frequent backups.

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Reply:
Are you sure that by doing so on your own, you can exclude Version upgrades but still be able to receive security updates only until 2025?

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Microsoft screwed up by sending the free Windows 10 upgrade to systems that should never have received it. They tried to stay in the shadows and if were not for the Ed Bott article, it would have stayed that way. They were shamed into making right that was not right.

Microsoft chose (or had to) acquiesce. In their statement to Ed Bott there was no apology to the users and they chose to lay blame at the feet of one of their business partners. If they had have announced the ‘make it right proposal’ before they were called out, then I would have been more than happy to give them kudos. No kudos are due.

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rc primak, Elly, AlexEiffel, HiFlyer, woody

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I told Ed this reminded me of the GPU fiasco with 900 Intel chips. They simply couldn’t run Vista Aero effects or not very well. It was one of those things that pegged advancing technology against aging hardware that if you exclude them you face a lot more unhappy users. If you support it, then will it become a liability. Its not that hardware should not have a EOL but that both Microsoft and Intel tend to implement it very badly. Who’s to blame? probably both, but the loser is the end user.

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Elly, AlexEiffel, HiFlyer

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They needed the magic number of installs to brag about the Windows 10 adoption rate and numbers. Now that that is not panning out as planned, they can skim off the dross.

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Elly, AlexEiffel, HiFlyer

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People seem to generally equate discontinuation of security updates with inability to use an OS.

Or is there more to it? Does Windows 10 vNNNN just stop working some number of months after vNNNN is released? E.g., reboot every hour, etc., like expired evaluation copies?

-Noel

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I wouldn`t put past MS that they could and would cripple the OS after x number of days/months!

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rc primak

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@ Noel Carboni

Yes, but few users would wanna continue using an unsupported Win 10 Version because they may WannaCry.

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AlexEiffel

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lurks about wrote:

Woody, it seems like MS never thought through the nuances of WaaS for W10 and its impact on users who are their customers (if indirectly). Many have observed that WaaS was a very risky idea for many reasons. Paul Thurrott noted that this will be probably be the first of numerous exceptions to WaaS if MS continues with their idea of releasing a version with new features every 18 months. This could end up being a nightmare for hardware and software vendors as it is quite possible for there be not 2 versions in the wild but 5, 6, or more at any given time. This will make the complaints about Linux fragmentation seem silly because the MS fragmented Windows.

Microsoft now releases new Windows 10 versions with new features about every 6 months, or at least it plans to. Every such version is supposed to go off support 18 months after release (except the LTSB). But your general point is still valid.

Edit : Forgot to click Reply, sorry.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

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So, Microsoft is going to tell the courts that Win 10 1703 (Creators Update) supports the Intel® Celeron® Processor P1053 (1.33 GHz, 2MB L3 Cache – released in 2010 – https://ark.intel.com/products/series/79083/Legacy-Intel-Celeron-Processor), but not the Intel® Core™ i7-4790K Processor (4.40 GHz, 8 MB SmartCache – released in 2014 – https://ark.intel.com/products/series/75023/4th-Generation-Intel-Core-i7-Processors), which got EOLed by Intel thus not receiving any driver updates anymore, due to performance reasons? Well, good luck Microsoft!

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Elly

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Microsoft states that Windows 10 will be supported ‘for the supported life of the device’.

This refers to the OEM End of Life cycle for a device. Therefore, it should be just a matter of looking up that info on the OEM’s official website. In reality that is not true as most OEMs do not provide a list of EOL devices on their website. Consumers are left to figure it out on their own. Business is told to contact their account representative for the info.

The rule of thumb: a 24 month cycle.

Rumor has it, it is moving to an 18 month cycle.

Microsoft and the OEMs do not want users to be left with a bricked system, but with FUs being pushed out on an 18 month cycle, risk is now much higher. How many cycles before a W10 system gets the dreaded message that the new build is incompatible with their hardware? It appears that this has become the big unknown and it is scaring buyers.

Right now we have an isolated case whereby Microsoft has come up with an amendment to their policy, but we do not know if it is permanent and will be applied to similar situations in the future. Yet another unknown.

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Reply:
It is not just the OEM End of Life cycle for a device that may cause Win 10 computers to be un-upgradeable to the next Version. Buggy Windows Update can also do so. Answers.microsoft.com has many reports of failed Creators Update/Version 1703 through Windows Update, eg …
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update-winpc/for-the-past-few-weeks-i-have-been-receiving-error/a161cada-7776-4d4d-8e00-cceddae9bcdd
.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update-winpc/asus-rog-gl753vd/736fef33-8bdb-4e51-878a-a101ae45a00f
.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update-winpc/windows-update-to-version-1703/e7cfed24-473d-4adf-88e8-674346da03b4
.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update-winpc/windows-10-creator-upgrade-fails-with-0x80004005/9c06bfa2-9760-4876-9058-78703c760495
.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update-winpc/installing-problem/9534273c-951d-4435-aabf-d2db97246088
.
http://gadgets.ndtv.com/laptops/news/windows-10-creators-update-shouldnt-be-installed-manually-warns-microsoft-1686594

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I have a question, Does this extend to all those who have 1607 or only those computers that have that bad processor?

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This has to do with machines with the Clover Trail processors

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so therefore Microsoft  support policy continues as normal  with those that don’t have that processor? also thanks for answering

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This is ONLY dealing with the Clover Trail processors, not any other processors.

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Quoting a commenter at Extremetech, …

Kamal S. Prasad • 2 days ago

Make the following change via Registry Editor and you can install the Creators Update: [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\WindowsUpdate\OSUpgrade]
It should exist, but if not, create it. Create a new DWORD (32-bit) Value with Name = “AllowOSUpgrade” (without the quotes), and set the Value = 1

I did this on my Lenovo ThinkPad Tablet 2 Pro and got the Creators Update and it works just fine.

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To be able to even evaluate this information we need the specs on the mentioned hardware and a link to the source of the specific quote.

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Reply;
.
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/252777-microsoft-kills-windows-10-feature-update-support-pcs-tablets
.
https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/tablets/lenovo-thinkpad-tablet-2

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The laptopmag article was written in 2013 and could not possibly be related to 1703 Creators Update.
The extremetech article states:

Clover Trail owners will be limited to version 1607 (Anniversary Update) of Windows 10. (If you own an Atom, you can check to see if it’s a Clover Trail CPU here.) Microsoft will still provide security updates through January 2023, meaning no users will be dumped off the bandwagon early, at least as far as security is concerned.

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@ PKCano

The commenter, Kamal S Prasad, made the comment at the Extremetech article 2 days ago.

The laptopmag link shows that the Lenovo Thinkpad Tablet 2 is using the Intel Atom Clover Trail Z2760 SOC chip, even though the link is from 2013, since that was when the tablets were first sold. In fact, Lenovo no longer manufactures them = not on sale at stores.
… The tablet buyers/users might have upgraded from Win 8 to Win 8.1 to Win 10 RTM to Version 1511 to Version 1607 and then could not upgrade to Win 10 Version 1703/Creators Update.

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What can we deduce from this related article dated 12 Aug 2015.?, …
http://www.myce.com/news/registry-hack-allows-installing-windows-10-on-atom-based-windows-8-tablets-76968/

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A 2015 article could not determine whether it could run 1703 Creators Update either.

The restriction is NOT about Win10 in general, but about version 1607 being the last compatible version and the Clover Trail processor not being able to run Win10 version 1703.

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@ PKCano

Yes, I understand your point. From that link, I was surprised that the Win 10 upgrade problem through Windows Update had already begun in 2015 for some of the owners of Intel Atom Clover Trail tablets. So, I dug further, …

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-hardware/intel-graphics-media-accelerator-not-compatible/78765fe5-5891-4191-85b0-aa4e0293b7eb?page=3
.
http://www.transformerforums.com/forum/asus-vivotab-smart/47662-windows-10-running-vivotab-smart-me400c.html
.
These links show the travails of some of Intel Atom Clover Trail tablet owners since the launch of Win 10 on 29 July 2015, ie they were blocked from the Win 10 RTM/1507 upgrade through Windows Update which they worked-around with a Registry fix or other methods(eg clean install of Win 10 and OEM SOC drivers).

Then recently, they were again blocked from the Win 10 Version 1703/CU upgrade through Windows Update. Quite perplexing.

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From Microsoft cuts off Windows 10 support early for some PCs:

‘In July 2015, two weeks before the official Windows 10 launch date, Microsoft committed to a 10-year support lifecycle for Windows 10 and clarified the “supported lifetime of the device” policy with this footnote.’

 

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Text may not appear in the Windows interface on some devices after installing the Windows 10 Creators Update

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