Win98 SE and IE 5.5 SP2 (IE 5.5 SP1)

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Hello –

I am trying to troubleshoot a problem with Windows Update and IE 5.5 sp1. When I access the WinUpdt site, I am told that I need a new version of the software, which then supposedly downloads and installs, but then I get the same page again, saying I need to download and install new Windows Update Software…. (Arrgh!!!)

At first I thought it might be because I had set IE to prompt before running ActiveX controls, but even with the setting to enable even unsigned controls, I still get caught in the same loop. I am running ZoneAlarm and TrendMicro’s PC-cillan, and I do not see any warnings from these to indicate that they are causing some kind of problem. Any ideas?

Above is the real problem, (since I can’t run Windows Update to see which updates I need to apply) and here is the question for this post.

Should I install IE 5.5 sp2 or not? Since I am on Win98 SE, I don’t really want to go to IE 6.x, but the page says that the 5.5 sp2 is for ME. I don’t expect there would be problems, but I wanted to ask if there was anyone with experience and/or horror stories before I take the plunge.

Thanks in advance,
John D

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Do you have any script, pop up, pop under blockers running? These can and have stopped the Windows update from working properly.

DaveA I am so far behind, I think I am First
Genealogy....confusing the dead and annoying the living

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(Edited by NAlmasy on 22-Sep-03 10:26. fix tag)

I find myself in a similar situation–can you even get IE5.5 SP2? I went to the IE home page today, and it seems that, except for WinME, you can’t download this version now . . .and I would like to get a copy for a Win98 machine with a broken “Internet connection wizard . . .” I’m going to look in the back room for an old CD . . .

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Thanks for your replies.

Dave, to answer your question, I do not have any other blocking software running. Just the firewall and the virus stuff. I would be leary of turning that off to try to run an update, given that I get probed about every 2-4 seconds.

NAImasy, I could not find a version specific SP2 for Win98 (SE or not), so I downloaded the version for ME, thinking it might be close enough to run. I know that Win98 is officially no longer serviced, so I am wondering if the folks in Redmond have made sure that there are no references to it in the pages for this release. I don’t know… If somebody does, please enlighten us!

John D

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John–

Ed by SMBP: I used an illustration with Windows XP because I picked the last critical update at the top of the list but the principle is completely the same with Hotfixes that apply to Windows 98 and IE vulnerabilities for IE 5.5 or IE6.0 that I recommend you update to.

Please see the links in this post which include the Windows Update Troubleshooter, but I think if you’ll just take the quick steps below which will take around 5 minutes, you won’t be having trouble blocking the site. This post also includes a number of links that explain problems with Windows Update, and links to get these updates via the Microsoft Seurity Site, the key being that if you use the security site, you’ll completely avoid the problem you’re posting forever.

Posts 295892.

Here is how to use the Microsoft Security Site for the last critical update for Windows XP issued on September 10, 2003:

Chronogical Security Bulletin List and say you want 824146.

The way to use the link above is in 3 steps corresonding to the screen shot below: 1) Click on the desired update. 2) Then click on “More Information Link” on the right. 3) Click on Download on the right and you won’t have the glitch you’re having now.

I also would take these steps and they may fix Win Update should you still want to use it It’s been working for messages like yours and very similar ones:

1) Update IE to IE6SP1.
2) If you have Zone Alarm, try disabling it and see if it helps you access Windows Update.
3) Before you try delete Temporary Internet Files and Offline Content at Tools>Options.
4) Start>My Computer>Program Files>C:Windows Update Folder (or whatever letter your OS is on you’re using to access WUpdate). Set a Restore Point. Copy This Folder and then rename it to something like “John’s Temporary Windows Update Folder in Case” but you probably won’t need either.

I strongly recommend the security site. The only time I’ve seen any Windows Update problems for m over than a year is on Newsgroups or the Lounge because I don’t need it with the security site.

SMBP

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Hello SMBP

Thank you for your help and ideas. I think I found out what was the problem, in that my version of PC-cillian seems to have been blocking Active-X controls that I said could run. When I turned that off, and ran the process, I was able to upgrade my Windows Update software to the extent that it works with the Java Filter on. I had also moved the Windows Update site into my Trusted zone (as recommended in another post), and I have set this area to have slightly looser restrictions on the Active-X controls. Between these things, I have been able to get the Windows Update site to work for me.

You recommended to up grade to IE 6, but I was under the impression that would not be a wise choice for someone like me on Win98 and a three year old machine. At the time it came out, it seemed like the features were not worth it for the overhead. Perhaps I am wrong, but since a hardware upgrade is still out of the question (and for a long while to come), I think I need to be concerned about it.

I will be looking at the Security Bulletins site more regularly, and try to keep on top of what is going on. I am in the situation that I don’t really know at what point I am with my updates, so I need to get up to date and then stay that way.

Thanks again.
John

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John–

As far as I know, at least the official Microsoft stance is that you could do this–upgrade to IE6SP1 with 98; theoretically it’s better Security wise; and you can get OE6SP1 independently–that has a few functionality features–the one I like is that when you’re in a newsgroup–at least msn–a “Ctrl+H” combo will show all your past messages in red and the same combo will then switch to normal mode.

We probably have a few regular posters who could comment. I know Joe Perez was using 98SE and I think Phil R. still might be but not sure of the browser combination with them.

You would think that these Virus companies, like Trend who is very good, would test with Windows Update which is of course not an obscurely known or used component of Windows by so many.

SMBP

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> You would think that these Virus companies, like Trend who is very good, would test with Windows Update which is of course
> not an obscurely known or used component of Windows by so many.

PC-Cillin’s firewall contains a feature called “WebTrap” that can block Java applets and ActiveX objects during the download of web pages. This is described in Chapter

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> You would think that these Virus companies, like Trend who is very good, would test with Windows Update which is of course
> not an obscurely known or used component of Windows by so many.

PC-Cillin’s firewall contains a feature called “WebTrap” that can block Java applets and ActiveX objects during the download of web pages. This is described in Chapter

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John–

As far as I know, at least the official Microsoft stance is that you could do this–upgrade to IE6SP1 with 98; theoretically it’s better Security wise; and you can get OE6SP1 independently–that has a few functionality features–the one I like is that when you’re in a newsgroup–at least msn–a “Ctrl+H” combo will show all your past messages in red and the same combo will then switch to normal mode.

We probably have a few regular posters who could comment. I know Joe Perez was using 98SE and I think Phil R. still might be but not sure of the browser combination with them.

You would think that these Virus companies, like Trend who is very good, would test with Windows Update which is of course not an obscurely known or used component of Windows by so many.

SMBP

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Hello SMBP

Thank you for your help and ideas. I think I found out what was the problem, in that my version of PC-cillian seems to have been blocking Active-X controls that I said could run. When I turned that off, and ran the process, I was able to upgrade my Windows Update software to the extent that it works with the Java Filter on. I had also moved the Windows Update site into my Trusted zone (as recommended in another post), and I have set this area to have slightly looser restrictions on the Active-X controls. Between these things, I have been able to get the Windows Update site to work for me.

You recommended to up grade to IE 6, but I was under the impression that would not be a wise choice for someone like me on Win98 and a three year old machine. At the time it came out, it seemed like the features were not worth it for the overhead. Perhaps I am wrong, but since a hardware upgrade is still out of the question (and for a long while to come), I think I need to be concerned about it.

I will be looking at the Security Bulletins site more regularly, and try to keep on top of what is going on. I am in the situation that I don’t really know at what point I am with my updates, so I need to get up to date and then stay that way.

Thanks again.
John

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John–

Ed by SMBP: I used an illustration with Windows XP because I picked the last critical update at the top of the list but the principle is completely the same with Hotfixes that apply to Windows 98 and IE vulnerabilities for IE 5.5 or IE6.0 that I recommend you update to.

Please see the links in this post which include the Windows Update Troubleshooter, but I think if you’ll just take the quick steps below which will take around 5 minutes, you won’t be having trouble blocking the site. This post also includes a number of links that explain problems with Windows Update, and links to get these updates via the Microsoft Seurity Site, the key being that if you use the security site, you’ll completely avoid the problem you’re posting forever.

Posts 295892.

Here is how to use the Microsoft Security Site for the last critical update for Windows XP issued on September 10, 2003:

Chronogical Security Bulletin List and say you want 824146.

The way to use the link above is in 3 steps corresonding to the screen shot below: 1) Click on the desired update. 2) Then click on “More Information Link” on the right. 3) Click on Download on the right and you won’t have the glitch you’re having now.

I also would take these steps and they may fix Win Update should you still want to use it It’s been working for messages like yours and very similar ones:

1) Update IE to IE6SP1.
2) If you have Zone Alarm, try disabling it and see if it helps you access Windows Update.
3) Before you try delete Temporary Internet Files and Offline Content at Tools>Options.
4) Start>My Computer>Program Files>C:Windows Update Folder (or whatever letter your OS is on you’re using to access WUpdate). Set a Restore Point. Copy This Folder and then rename it to something like “John’s Temporary Windows Update Folder in Case” but you probably won’t need either.

I strongly recommend the security site. The only time I’ve seen any Windows Update problems for m over than a year is on Newsgroups or the Lounge because I don’t need it with the security site.

SMBP

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Thanks for your replies.

Dave, to answer your question, I do not have any other blocking software running. Just the firewall and the virus stuff. I would be leary of turning that off to try to run an update, given that I get probed about every 2-4 seconds.

NAImasy, I could not find a version specific SP2 for Win98 (SE or not), so I downloaded the version for ME, thinking it might be close enough to run. I know that Win98 is officially no longer serviced, so I am wondering if the folks in Redmond have made sure that there are no references to it in the pages for this release. I don’t know… If somebody does, please enlighten us!

John D

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NAlmasy:

You can get IE5.5 here, but I’d follow the directions in Post 296493 and one of the steps I’d recommend is to update to IE6SP1–but I provided you the download option you requested since Microsoft did not.

I strongly recommend that even if these steps get you back to Windows Update you use the Microsoft Security site option to update security.

SMBP

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Thank you, SMBP. It turns out that a colleague installed Office on that machine, after which IE suddenly began to work again! Still, I would like to have more options than the old IE 4.0 CD I found in the back room.

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Help me understand–what IE version do you have and what one if any do you want to change it to and is there any update problem you have –do you need to get an update–it is fairly easy to find any version of IE you want to install, and fairly easy to get in any update(s) you want I know that much.

SMBP

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I just want a recent version of IE that I know has been tested on older versions of Windows (most of these, 12 or so, in my ‘world,’ are running Windows 98 SE.) My hesitation with IE 6 comes from a statement in WOW #8.36 – “Get your updates now”, the first article, which makes me slightly uneasy: “(I’ll shoot Windows Update if it tries to stick Internet Explorer 6 on my Windows 98 system again)”. Must be a reason . . .I’ve had positive experiences with IE 5.5. That’s all I can say. Thanks again for your help with this.

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NAlmasy–

I’ve found some of Woody’s IE articles archived that deal predominantly with security vulnerabilities that have since been patched, or at least MS says they have. I’d appreciate it if you’d give me a date on that one or link it–I’m having trouble finding it in WWW sequences–could it be a Woody’s XP before they were discontinued or is it a WOW?

SMBP

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It was a WOW, # 8.36 , and I probably didn’t understand the context . . .

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NAlmasy–

“The Woody’s I quoted (out of context?) WOW September 10, 2003 Vol. 8 No. 6“

Thanks, because so far all the past Woody’s I read last night were concerned with security and only security flaws that have since been addressed in the IE6 and IE6SP1 subsequently–not with anything else, and I know plenty of people with 98 and the latest IE6SP1 and they aren’t having any problems connected with this whatsoever, and they have a lot better security 128 bit encryption and it solves a lot of other problems.

Everything Woody addressed I’ve seen in all the past newsletters has been fixed and he wrote this in a very recent WOW:

[/b]“ALL CLEAR – GET YOUR UPDATES NOW[/b]
As of today I recommend that everyone (with one exception) try to use Windows Update and Office Update to apply all of Microsoft’s critical patches. (The exception: if you run Windows
XP/Pro as a server for ASP.NET pages, with IIS 5.1 and .NET Framework version 1.0, then you need to jump through some hoops. I do NOT recommend that you install the optional updates (I’ll shoot Windows Update if it tries to stick Internet Explorer 6 on my Windows
98 system again).
WOW 10 September 2003 Vol 8 No 36

I don’t know why Woody says this–he doesn’t say, and I reread any possible sections in his new book and he does talk about drivers and I’d never touch Windows Update for them either, and most people I know and most IT people agree with my driver statement.

Anyone holding back updating to IE6SP1 should take a good look at this and the 65 or so glitches and security vulnerablities fixed by IE6SP1:

326489: List of Issues Fixed in Internet Explorer 6 Service Packs

List of Fixes in IE6SP1

Web Privacy

If you do any banking at all on the internet, even look at your check balance and checks processed as an awful lot of people do, you want this. IE 5.5 includes 128 bit encryption as does IE6.0.

“128

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> There may be higher levels of protection however, and that’s why many people use VPN including every Microsoft employee
> on the Microsoft network they use at work and at home.

Generally speaking, you can only create a VPN connection to a site that is configured for you to connect that way. You would not be able to use it for regular consumer banking.

128-bit encryption is plenty strong for typical usage. The problem is, the other party might not be using 128-bit keys, and your browser might not tell you this. For that reason, just because your browser supports strong encryption does not necessarily mean your communications are well protected. The connection could be anything from 40-bit DES to 128-bit RC4. I went into a secure session and could not find the actual key strength from any dialog. Hmmm… (Note, the 1024-bit RSA key described on the certificate properties secures the “handshake” and make the exchange of a private key possible, but your session is not protected by a 1024-bit key.)

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Good point and thanks for the info. With all the hype about the enhanced encryption, I haven’t seen a lot of people make the very basic point that it depends on both ends.

SMBP

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Good point and thanks for the info. With all the hype about the enhanced encryption, I haven’t seen a lot of people make the very basic point that it depends on both ends.

SMBP

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Would this Microsoft Outlook Express 6 SP1 “3DES” Update 331488: Internet Explorer 6 SP1 Update: Outlook Express Does Not Use 3DES to Encrypt Mail When the Recipient’s Capabilities Are Not Known be a move toward a rememdy for this problem on one end?

SMBP

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Would this Microsoft Outlook Express 6 SP1 “3DES” Update 331488: Internet Explorer 6 SP1 Update: Outlook Express Does Not Use 3DES to Encrypt Mail When the Recipient’s Capabilities Are Not Known be a move toward a rememdy for this problem on one end?

SMBP

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> There may be higher levels of protection however, and that’s why many people use VPN including every Microsoft employee
> on the Microsoft network they use at work and at home.

Generally speaking, you can only create a VPN connection to a site that is configured for you to connect that way. You would not be able to use it for regular consumer banking.

128-bit encryption is plenty strong for typical usage. The problem is, the other party might not be using 128-bit keys, and your browser might not tell you this. For that reason, just because your browser supports strong encryption does not necessarily mean your communications are well protected. The connection could be anything from 40-bit DES to 128-bit RC4. I went into a secure session and could not find the actual key strength from any dialog. Hmmm… (Note, the 1024-bit RSA key described on the certificate properties secures the “handshake” and make the exchange of a private key possible, but your session is not protected by a 1024-bit key.)

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I’m convinced! I’ll surely begin the IE6 upgrades with those Win98s (and W2Ks, if any) that have only “standard” encryption.

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I’m convinced! I’ll surely begin the IE6 upgrades with those Win98s (and W2Ks, if any) that have only “standard” encryption.

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NAlmasy–

“The Woody’s I quoted (out of context?) WOW September 10, 2003 Vol. 8 No. 6“

Thanks, because so far all the past Woody’s I read last night were concerned with security and only security flaws that have since been addressed in the IE6 and IE6SP1 subsequently–not with anything else, and I know plenty of people with 98 and the latest IE6SP1 and they aren’t having any problems connected with this whatsoever, and they have a lot better security 128 bit encryption and it solves a lot of other problems.

Everything Woody addressed I’ve seen in all the past newsletters has been fixed and he wrote this in a very recent WOW:

[/b]“ALL CLEAR – GET YOUR UPDATES NOW[/b]
As of today I recommend that everyone (with one exception) try to use Windows Update and Office Update to apply all of Microsoft’s critical patches. (The exception: if you run Windows
XP/Pro as a server for ASP.NET pages, with IIS 5.1 and .NET Framework version 1.0, then you need to jump through some hoops. I do NOT recommend that you install the optional updates (I’ll shoot Windows Update if it tries to stick Internet Explorer 6 on my Windows
98 system again).
WOW 10 September 2003 Vol 8 No 36

I don’t know why Woody says this–he doesn’t say, and I reread any possible sections in his new book and he does talk about drivers and I’d never touch Windows Update for them either, and most people I know and most IT people agree with my driver statement.

Anyone holding back updating to IE6SP1 should take a good look at this and the 65 or so glitches and security vulnerablities fixed by IE6SP1:

326489: List of Issues Fixed in Internet Explorer 6 Service Packs

List of Fixes in IE6SP1

Web Privacy

If you do any banking at all on the internet, even look at your check balance and checks processed as an awful lot of people do, you want this. IE 5.5 includes 128 bit encryption as does IE6.0.

“128

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For what it is worth — I have installed IE6 on MANY Windows98 computers without a problem. The people who had problems with this LIKELY had problem due to third-party anti-virus or other security programs. Out of the box IE6 and Win98 play well together.

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For what it is worth — I have installed IE6 on MANY Windows98 computers without a problem. The people who had problems with this LIKELY had problem due to third-party anti-virus or other security programs. Out of the box IE6 and Win98 play well together.

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It was a WOW, # 8.36 , and I probably didn’t understand the context . . .

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NAlmasy–

I’ve found some of Woody’s IE articles archived that deal predominantly with security vulnerabilities that have since been patched, or at least MS says they have. I’d appreciate it if you’d give me a date on that one or link it–I’m having trouble finding it in WWW sequences–could it be a Woody’s XP before they were discontinued or is it a WOW?

SMBP

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I just want a recent version of IE that I know has been tested on older versions of Windows (most of these, 12 or so, in my ‘world,’ are running Windows 98 SE.) My hesitation with IE 6 comes from a statement in WOW #8.36 – “Get your updates now”, the first article, which makes me slightly uneasy: “(I’ll shoot Windows Update if it tries to stick Internet Explorer 6 on my Windows 98 system again)”. Must be a reason . . .I’ve had positive experiences with IE 5.5. That’s all I can say. Thanks again for your help with this.

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Help me understand–what IE version do you have and what one if any do you want to change it to and is there any update problem you have –do you need to get an update–it is fairly easy to find any version of IE you want to install, and fairly easy to get in any update(s) you want I know that much.

SMBP

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Thank you, SMBP. It turns out that a colleague installed Office on that machine, after which IE suddenly began to work again! Still, I would like to have more options than the old IE 4.0 CD I found in the back room.

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NAlmasy:

You can get IE5.5 here, but I’d follow the directions in Post 296493 and one of the steps I’d recommend is to update to IE6SP1–but I provided you the download option you requested since Microsoft did not.

I strongly recommend that even if these steps get you back to Windows Update you use the Microsoft Security site option to update security.

SMBP

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(Edited by NAlmasy on 22-Sep-03 10:26. fix tag)

I find myself in a similar situation–can you even get IE5.5 SP2? I went to the IE home page today, and it seems that, except for WinME, you can’t download this version now . . .and I would like to get a copy for a Win98 machine with a broken “Internet connection wizard . . .” I’m going to look in the back room for an old CD . . .

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