• Win7 didn't warn me its firewall was running

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    • This topic has 55 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 15 years ago.
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    #468765

    Dear Loungers, even a dummy grade 2 like me knows 2 firewalls should not run at the same time. It was only luck I found out as indicated by a fellow lounger on another matter, I got no notification or alert from my WIN7 PC that this was happening. How many are running on yours?

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    • #1222735

      I once saw 4 running on a windows xp machine I was working on for a customer, and he couldn’t figure out why he couldn’t see the machine on his network……..

    • #1222762

      Technically I have two. The router is a hardware firewall, and Windows firewall is the second.

      Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!
      We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.
      We were all once "Average Users".

    • #1222785

      It probably should read you should not use more than one software firewall at a time. My router also has a hardware firewall in addition to the Win 7 S/W firewall.

    • #1222824

      I can never remember what is S/W or H/W. I was meaning only W7 Firewall and Outpost Pro. F/W, and completely forgot my Netgear DGN2000 router’s F/W

      • #1222828

        I can never remember what is S/W or H/W. I was meaning only W7 Firewall and Outpost Pro. F/W, and completely forgot my Netgear DGN2000 router’s F/W

        S/W – software
        H/W – hardware

        You probably should not have Win 7 S/W firewall and Outpost Pro S/W firewall enabled at the same time.

        Your Netgear firewall is a H/W firewall.

    • #1222838

      Ted, my original reason for posting was W7 gave no warning I was running 2 FW’s at the same time. Not including router FW.

    • #1222844

      I believe the Windows firewall is enabled by default in Win 7. To disable it go to Control Panel/Windows Firewall. On the left side select Turn Windows Firewall On or Off.

    • #1222865

      Normally after installing Outpost FW Pro, windows FW gets turned off automattically but I usually check to make sure.

      • #1222963

        Normally after installing Outpost FW Pro, windows FW gets turned off automattically but I usually check to make sure.

        The firewall architecture was changed with Windows 7. It is much more than just a firewall. See What’s New in Windows Firewall with Advanced Security for a discussion.

        The upshot is that if a third party firewall is Windows 7 compatible during installation it can turn off parts of the Windows firewall that the third party product covers. So, YOU should not just disable the Windows firewall otherwise you may be disabling other important security features.

        Joe

        --Joe

        • #1222969

          The firewall architecture was changed with Windows 7. It is much more than just a firewall. See What’s New in Windows Firewall with Advanced Security for a discussion.

          The upshot is that if a third party firewall is Windows 7 compatible during installation it can turn off parts of the Windows firewall that the third party product covers. So, YOU should not just disable the Windows firewall otherwise you may be disabling other important security features.

          Joe

          My firewall is Agnitum’s Outpost Pro. It has packet filtering, Win FW does not, it allows all outbound by design but blocks all incoming except what is allowed by design or user settings.

          • #1222992

            My firewall is Agnitum’s Outpost Pro. It has packet filtering, Win FW does not, it allows all outbound by design but blocks all incoming except what is allowed by design or user settings.

            If you want to use a third party firewall that is fine. It is entirely up to you.

            My point was that as long as Outpost Pro or any other third party firewall is Windows 7 compatible you should not need to mess with the Windows 7 firewall. The third party firewall should disable features in the Windows firewall that it handles. If you manually disable the Windows 7 firewall you may be disabling security features that the third party firewall does not cover.

            Joe

            --Joe

            • #1223050

              If you want to use a third party firewall that is fine. It is entirely up to you.

              My point was that as long as Outpost Pro or any other third party firewall is Windows 7 compatible you should not need to mess with the Windows 7 firewall. The third party firewall should disable features in the Windows firewall that it handles. If you manually disable the Windows 7 firewall you may be disabling security features that the third party firewall does not cover.

              Joe

              Outpost FW is compatible with W7. Therefore I dont need W7 FW as it is very basic unless you activate its advanced features, I am not clever enough to do so.

            • #1223100

              Outpost FW is compatible with W7. Therefore I dont need W7 FW as it is very basic unless you activate its advanced features, I am not clever enough to do so.

              The Windows firewall services are more than just a firewall. If you read the linked Technet article in my prior post you’ll see that you should just leave things alone.

              Joe

              --Joe

            • #1223104

              The Windows firewall services are more than just a firewall. If you read the linked Technet article in my prior post you’ll see that you should just leave things alone.

              Joe

              I had read the article before you posted the link and is NOT more than just a firewall unless you use the advanced setting features, which many ‘joe public’ are not skilled enough to do, myself included.
              P.S. whats all this about anyway, it has nothing to do with my original post topic.

            • #1223113

              P.S. whats all this about anyway, it has nothing to do with my original post topic.

              It appear from your original post that you expected some notification from Windows that multiple firewalls are running. And in subsequent posts you wondered about turning off the Windows firewall manually.

              The section entitled ” Coexistance with third party firewalls” says nothing about enabling features. Some MAY need to be enabled. Others such as boot time filtering are automatically enabled.

              I was attempting to point out that if you install a third party firewall that properly supports Windows 7 during installation it will disable the parts of the Windows firewall that conflict with what it (the third part firewall) supports. The remainder such as boot time filtering should be left alone. That is you should NOT manually disable it.

              So, if the third party firewall disables part of the Windows firewall you can have more than one service running as they each cover different things. There is no good basis for Windows to warn you. It would turn out to be more of a nuisance than a valid warning.

              Joe

              --Joe

            • #1223722

              If you want to use a third party firewall that is fine. It is entirely up to you.

              My point was that as long as Outpost Pro or any other third party firewall is Windows 7 compatible you should not need to mess with the Windows 7 firewall. The third party firewall should disable features in the Windows firewall that it handles. If you manually disable the Windows 7 firewall you may be disabling security features that the third party firewall does not cover.

              Joe

              Just as a side note, Loungers may find it useful to check their firewall. One way to do this is with the respected and widely used ‘Shields Up’ service at http://grc.com. Follow the links to Shields Up and choose ‘Common Ports’ or ‘All service ports’.
              Hoping you’re all stealthed!
              Peter

    • #1222866

      Win 7 firewall is the most advanced Windows firewall so it must have to be manually disabled. I just like Windows firewall and MSE so I use them instead of getting 3rd party apps for these items.

    • #1222911

      I just like Windows firewall and MSE

      I just saw my first virus breakthrough on a fully patched Win7 machine running Microsoft Security Essentials. (It was a drive-by infection called Security Tool) The user did click the “Clean Now” button on the website that presented it so is at least partially to blame. It left MSE running but when a scan was attempted it would bsod about half way through.

      • #1222958

        I just saw my first virus breakthrough on a fully patched Win7 machine running Microsoft Security Essentials. (It was a drive-by infection called Security Tool) The user did click the “Clean Now” button on the website that presented it so is at least partially to blame. It left MSE running but when a scan was attempted it would bsod about half way through.

        In an infection of this type, the user is not partially to blame, the user is entirely to blame. One can participate in all available gun-safety instruction courses, but if one were to deliberately point a pistol at one’s foot, release the safety and pull the trigger, such action and the resulting wound is in no way the fault of the gun-safety courses.

        I am led to assume from this action resulting in an infection that this user was either running using an administrators group account, or running with UAC disabled.

        Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!
        We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.
        We were all once "Average Users".

    • #1222933

      When a user clicks on these links from these fraudulent sites, there is not much any AV app can do. It usually takes a fair amount of work to clean up. There are numerous posts for removal of this particularly virulant nasty. Check these posts:

      Bleeping Computer

      How To Geek

      I guess the bottom line is no AV/AM can make up for mistakes made by a user 100% of the time. These rogue drive by fake Security and Antivirus threats rely on uninformed users to assist with their schemes. I have told my mother to just delete any unsolicited emails and never click on anything on a web site. She has been doing pretty well recently, but still occasionally sends me emails to check this offer or that offer for her. I just say “Delete It”!!!

      Also if you have a good AV/AM, then you never need to click on a link on a web site that offers to clean a virus from your system because you already have that protection. This is one area where educating the majority would go a long way toward stoping some of these threats.

      • #1223452

        When a user clicks on these links from these fraudulent sites, there is not much any AV app can do. It usually takes a fair amount of work to clean up. There are numerous posts for removal of this particularly virulant nasty. Check these posts:

        Bleeping Computer

        How To Geek

        Ted:
        Your first reference takes you to a site that has you download and install Spyware Docter. If you do so, you run a scan. It finds a cookie or two; calls them a threat; and if you want to have these “threats” removed, you have to register and buy the product. No joy. The next time you recommend something like this, I think you ought to put a disclaimer that it’s for a product you have to pay for. This “cure” is almost as bad as the problem people are trying to get rid of, in my opinion.
        Dick

        In case anyone else missed it, the stuff about Spyware Doctor is an advertisement within the bleepingcomputer.com website. It is NOT a part of the fix. You need to scroll down a bit to find the reference to Malwarebytes scan/removal tool. And Malwarebytes does work as claimed. Sorry, not trying to morph this thread away from original post. But “how many firewalls” segued into a brief discussion about removing malware. Just wanted to clear up any misunderstandings about bleepingcomputer.com being a legitimate site and having decent information, if one scrolls down to find the information. 🙂

    • #1222945

      Ted:
      Your first reference takes you to a site that has you download and install Spyware Docter. If you do so, you run a scan. It finds a cookie or two; calls them a threat; and if you want to have these “threats” removed, you have to register and buy the product. No joy. The next time you recommend something like this, I think you ought to put a disclaimer that it’s for a product you have to pay for. This “cure” is almost as bad as the problem people are trying to get rid of, in my opinion.
      Dick

      • #1222947

        Ted:
        Your first reference takes you to a site that has you download and install Spyware Docter. If you do so, you run a scan. It finds a cookie or two; calls them a threat; and if you want to have these “threats” removed, you have to register and buy the product. No joy. The next time you recommend something like this, I think you ought to put a disclaimer that it’s for a product you have to pay for. This “cure” is almost as bad as the problem people are trying to get rid of, in my opinion.
        Dick

        Sorry, I have deleted that one. I did not investigate it close enough. I guess I was still half asleep at 5:34 this morning.

    • #1222965

      running using an administrators group account

      yes

      and

      or running with UAC disabled

      no

      He did admit that he had clicked through the “allow program to make changes to this computer” dialog.

      This is one of those “babysitting” jobs I have been talking about.

      (the gun doesn’t suddenly pop up a message that says “shoot yourself in the foot or you will die of smallpox this afternoon”)

      It seems like I can talk and warn all I want. Some users just aren’t happy unless they learn on their own. (I have never had one do it twice though……at least not yet…..)

    • #1222987

      Visit ShieldsUP to see how well protected you are online.

      Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!
      We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.
      We were all once "Average Users".

      • #1223048

        Visit ShieldsUP to see how well protected you are online.

        I have ran all the tests at GRC Shields Up with Outpost & Windows FW’s disabled and still got 100% passes thanks to my Netgear router.

    • #1223148

      JoeP, first of all, I do not intend any rudeness in any posts to anyone on this wonderful forum. As to Windows 7 FW contribution, I ran a full set of tests without any firewall enabled except the one built into my Netgear DGN2000 ADSL Router and a 100% pass was achieved every time. Outpost also direct you to test your FW @ This Address but as my true IP is not given due to router settings it means I’m well protected and results are meaningless.

      • #1223202

        JoeP, first of all, I do not intend any rudeness in any posts to anyone on this wonderful forum. As to Windows 7 FW contribution, I ran a full set of tests without any firewall enabled except the one built into my Netgear DGN2000 ADSL Router and a 100% pass was achieved every time. Outpost also direct you to test your FW @ This Address but as my true IP is not given due to router settings it means I’m well protected and results are meaningless.

        No offense taken. I just thought I was not getting my point across and I guess you felt the same.

        If you feel comfortable that you are protected without any firewall then I recommend you just leave the Windows firewall alone and not worry about the extra expense and effort of a third party firewall.

        Joe

        --Joe

    • #1223218

      JoeP, our exchange reminds me of a saying I once heard. ‘Great minds think alike, fools seldom differ’ I have no idea who quoted it. Keep up the good work.

    • #1223244

      If your third party firewall is NOT turning OFF the built in one, the I would look at getting a different one.
      As the built in one is needed at start up, until the third party ones kicks in, then it should turn OFF the built in one.

      On Windows 7 we have found that the Windows provided one is working just fine, we feel that there is no need for a third party firewall behind a router.

      DaveA I am so far behind, I think I am First
      Genealogy....confusing the dead and annoying the living

      • #1223288

        If your third party firewall is NOT turning OFF the built in one, the I would look at getting a different one.
        As the built in one is needed at start up, until the third party ones kicks in, then it should turn OFF the built in one.

        On Windows 7 we have found that the Windows provided one is working just fine, we feel that there is no need for a third party firewall behind a router.

        DaveA, I contacted Agnitum. They stated it is designed to disable built in FW during installation. As to starting at start-up, Outpost is the first on the taskbar closely followed by MSE.

    • #1223428

      Hi. I run a NAT firewall on my D-link router along with Zone Alarm and it works good for me. I had been just using Zone Alarm for a long while, then one time when I was reinstalling windowsXP, scripts were being installed and executed before I could get windows installed to load the AV! The hardware firewall does a good job at keeping most junk out and the software based FW deals with the rare stuff that makes it through the NAT firewall.

    • #1223474

      In Windows 7, I use the default firewall along with a router, nothing else.
      In XP you could safely and easily get away with the use of XP’s default firewall and a 3rd parties with minimal fuss, at least in my experience.
      The Windows 7 firewall is a bit more robust than prior versions of the MS os bundled firewalls and will more than likely create issues.

      The windows 7 firewall should be on by default and no warning that it is, should at all be needed.

    • #1223476

      Like Gomek, I utilize NAT on my DSL gateway as well and do not knowingly have any problems. I read somewhere that running a software firewall on the devices connected to this network is unnecessary, and not wanting any computing power taken away, I turn it off. I’m sure between me and my 16 yr old we visit questionable sites (seems to me I had a problem with misheardlyrics.com once), but I do not find any viruses or malware on our computers when I scan them. We practice and I preach safe computing “delete any unsolicited emails and never click on anything on a web site” (again, to my knowledge). In my ignorance, the NAT/AVG/Defender/Chrome “suite” is enough.

    • #1223494

      NAT on the gateway if setup correctly will render you perfectly safe from hacking attempts that initiate FROM the web. This can be proven by running GRC ShieldsUP as Roderunner has pointed out in former posts on this thread.

      HOWEVER…..

      Many hacking attempts do NOT initiate from the web. If you have a trojan on your machine it will try to call “home” from INSIDE your network. Your NAT firewall will happily let it connect (after all that is what it is there for).

      Now, if you have a software firewall on your machine also and you have it set to ask you before it let’s any program connect to the Web, you will have to allow programs through at first (such as internet explore, java update, etc.) but if you suddenly get a request from a program you don’t recognize, you can deny it or check it out and possibly stop it in it’s tracks if it is malware.

      If you have two or three or more… software firewalls running on that machine and suddenly a program will not work or an update will not run, you are going to have a major job figuring out why it won’t work.

    • #1223502

      And the Windows 7 Firewall/Microsoft Security Essentials combo does indeed monitor outbound traffic and will popup and ask you if you want a certain program to send traffic out to the web. You’re given an opportunity to allow “this time”, allow always, block “this time”, or block always.

      Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!
      We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.
      We were all once "Average Users".

      • #1223506

        And the Windows 7 Firewall/Microsoft Security Essentials combo does indeed monitor outbound traffic and will popup and ask you if you want a certain program to send traffic out to the web. You’re given an opportunity to allow “this time”, allow always, block “this time”, or block always.

        Yep, and if you always thoughtlessly click “allow always” every time that box pops up without reading WHAT you are allowing or researching what that oddly named program is, you just as well have it turned off…….

        • #1223596

          Yep, and if you always thoughtlessly click “allow always” every time that box pops up without reading WHAT you are allowing or researching what that oddly named program is, you just as well have it turned off…….

          One can block the outbound traffic “this time” and take all the time needed to research just what that particular process/app is and why it needs to send outbound traffic.

          The worst assumption one can make is that “It must be OK, it’s coming from my computer”. I wish I had a nickel…

          Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!
          We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.
          We were all once "Average Users".

    • #1223609

      I run Comodo and W& firewalls.

      Thanks for the W7 Firewall links. I may drop Comodo.

      As I understand it, any Windows OS only warns the user if the Firewall is NOT running.

      • #1223612

        As I understand it, any Windows OS only warns the user if the Firewall is NOT running.

        As soon as you boot, before the boot process is complete.

        Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!
        We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.
        We were all once "Average Users".

    • #1223627

      I’m really disgusted at MS for not alerting us before we downloaded this whole pkg.. not knowing what was in it.( on my Windows XP )
      I un-installed my WinPatrol.. now everytime I reboot or long on.. I get this folder.. with Windows Security that pops up..
      I’ve gone to MS. read their board.. nothing will un-install it.. no their Fiz It won’t fix it either.. tried that.
      I don’t need the Firewall or Anti-virus program.. yet even usning their un-install did NOT remove it.
      What next ?
      Thanks for your replies.

      • #1223684

        I’m really disgusted at MS for not alerting us before we downloaded this whole pkg.. not knowing what was in it.( on my Windows XP )

        I get this folder.. with Windows Security that pops up..

        What package did you download?

        Can you post a screenshot of what pops up?

        Joe

        --Joe

    • #1223680

      The 3 FW’s in this topic all have unique properties.
      My FW of choice is Outpost Pro. it can be disabled or not installed.
      W7 FW can be disabled but not uninstalled.
      My Netgear DGN2000 ADSL router FW can be neither disabled or uninstalled.
      As to other types of routers (cable for example) I have no knowledge of so cannot comment on them.

    • #1223703

      As far as I actually know.. I DID NOT download anything.. this was on my pc.. it must have been in an update..
      This pc is Windows XP SP 3 …Auto updates.
      I’ve very careful about downloading.

      I’ll get you a screen shot the next time I reboot.
      Thanks so much for your reply.[/b]
      [/size][/font]

    • #1223713

      Joe hello.. here is the screen shot..I hope I’ve done this right.
      thanks for your reply and help.. this is what pops up ..or opens on my screen each time
      I reboot or Sign on in the mornings
      Thanks much.

      oops I don’t see the screen shot what happened to it?

    • #1223714

      Joe ..lol ..I forgot to upload the screen shot,, forgive me plz.
      Thank you..

      • #1223789

        I forgot to upload the screen shot,, forgive me plz.

        No Problem. Usually when a Windows Explorer windows opens on boot there is an invalid entry one of the startup locations. Use a tool such as Autoruns for Windows or WhatInStartup – Disable/delete programs at Windows startup to manage what is starting when your system boots.

        NOTE: Autoruns displays an enormous amount of information. You should be most interested in the Logon tab.

        Joe

        --Joe

      • #1223839

        Joe ..lol ..I forgot to upload the screen shot,, forgive me plz.
        Thank you..

        The Search Enhancement Pack is part of the Live toolbar.
        You can try removing the Pack itself by clicking Start > Run
        then entering the following:
        msiexec /x {299CF645-48C7-4FA1-8BCD-5CE200CF180D}
        and then click OK.

        You might get a message that says it only works with
        products that have been installed… Instead, do:
        msiexec /x {9C9CEB9D-53FD-49A7-85D2-FE674F72F24E}

    • #1223725

      I see many of you who have posted to this thread are very wise about firewalls. And most of the info is correct, some of it very interesting.

      I use Windows XP Pro, SP3, so I need a third-party firewall. And mine is Comodo Free with Defense Plus (heuristics and pop-up warnings). The router also has some firewall properties.

      The most important thing to remember is that Vista and Windows 7 firewalls have outbound protections. But there is a catch — you may need to configure or tweak the settings, and the native Microsoft controls (Advanced) are a real Pain in The Neck to configure. There are third-party user interfaces, which can make this a less-demanding task. So if you are willing to work at it, yes, the Vista/Win 7 firewall may be all you will need. When I upgrade to a Win 7 laptop, I will use the native Windows Firewall plus Sphinx Software’s controls interface for the Advanced Settings.

      -- rc primak

    • #1223734

      Peter hello.. I used your link..My pc is totally Stealthed.
      My router has surely made this so. I’m glad to know this has paid off..( Belkin Enhanced Wireless Router N150 )
      I’ve been trying to get it set up so I can get my Windows XP in a group with my Windows 7 laptop..
      so we can share all my files back and forth.. when I’m away from home.
      So far so good it looks like.
      Now to get this completed.
      Thanks for the link.
      LPt

    • #1223744
    • #1223873

      I’m also not well versed in computers, so I have an odd question. I know you can’t run 2 software firewalls at the same time, but can you run 2 hardware firewalls at the same time (along with 1 software firewall) since they are not software; it would seem to me you could run as many hardware firewalls as you want?

      • #1223876

        I’m also not well versed in computers, so I have an odd question. I know you can’t run 2 software firewalls at the same time, but can you run 2 hardware firewalls at the same time (along with 1 software firewall) since they are not software; it would seem to me you could run as many hardware firewalls as you want?

        Yes, you could run multiple hardware firewalls but that would seem to be overkill.

        Joe

        --Joe

    • #1223878

      To answer this question it helps to understand Network Address Translation (NAT). I would suggest that you google “how does nat work” and do some reading on what is actually happening inside that little box we call a router.

      Lets begin by assuming you are are using a home network router such as a linksys WRT54 or some such unit. These units actually have a very limited “firewall” but use NAT to isolate you from the Wide Area Network (WAN) otherwise known as the internet. When you start to understand how NAT works it soon becomes clear that running two such devices (one behind the other) is not a good idea. Although it may work fine in a given situation, it adds no more security and as soon as you want to do anything advanced with that network, (such as forwarding a port to an internal device) it quickly becomes impossible.

    • #1224008

      Joe hello.. thanks for your kind reply..
      I did do both of the Run items you suggested.. then I did the WhatsInStartUp..
      I did disable.. a SearchSettings by Spigot.,Inc.. item have no idea what that is..
      it will be easy to enable later if needed..
      I may go ahead and do the Auto Runs for Windows .. later today.

      Thank you ever so much.
      G.
      ps… I didn’t reply to you yesterday.. I was out of town till late last evening,.[/size][/font]

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