WHY the push to Windows 10?

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I wonder why Microsoft is so eager to get everyone on Windows 10. I understand not wanting to have to support older operating systems, but isn’t Microsoft committed to supporting Windows 7 and 8.1 until certain dates? What do they gain by getting people off those systems before those dates arrive?

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A large user base makes it more attractive to developers. The smaller the user base for older OSes the fewer problems get reported and the less support personnel Microsoft has to devote to these versions.

Joe

--Joe

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Yes, I suppose that makes some sense.

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Why? Because they can. Doesn’t make it right.

I was pretty happy with Windows 8.0, with StartIsBack. 8.1 just didn’t work well on my old, lame computer; 8.0 worked great. But then Microsoft quit supporting it.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Why? Because they can. Doesn’t make it right.

Yes, they can, but whether it’s right or not, that isn’t really an answer, factual or speculated, to my wondering why they would want to.

A previous reply gave some reasonable possibilities.

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Why? Because they can. Doesn’t make it right.

Yes, they can, but whether it’s right or not, that isn’t really an answer, factual or speculated, to my wondering why they would want to.[/QUOTE]
“Because they can” is indeed a speculated answer as to why they might want to… Rather like why people do so many things that make others wonder – because they can.

Cheers,
Paul Edstein
[Fmr MS MVP - Word]

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”Because they can” is indeed a speculated answer as to why they might want to… Rather like why people do so many things that make others wonder – because they can.

A friend has a less charitable answer to the question “why does person X do thing Y”, “Because people are stupid and selfish”. Sadly, it’s often not far from the mark.

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In my personal opinion, they are trying to move everyone to a subscription model, on Windows and on Office. Office is a long way down that path, Windows is just starting down that path.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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In my personal opinion, they are trying to move everyone to a subscription model, on Windows and on Office. Office is a long way down that path, Windows is just starting down that path.

While a lot of people think this is unfounded speculation, I tend to agree. It’s something that they started discussing many, many years ago. It’s possible we will see a time where we will have to have a subscription to get updates.

The immediate goal seems to be greater standardization – or at least as far as that is possible. With as many machines as possible moved to Win10 and with regular (force fed) consolidated updates, it should be expected that they will have to spend less time and money supporting various systems that could be at any state of updates.

There’s a lot to recommend this approach, but it goes against the grain of many experienced users because we’ve seen too many things get messed up by updates in prior versions. Basically we don’t trust MS to get it right the first time, every time, and we like being able to pick and choose updates at a more granular level.

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There’s a lot to recommend this approach, but it goes against the grain of many experienced users because we’ve seen too many things get messed up by updates in prior versions. Basically we don’t trust MS to get it right the first time, every time, and we like being able to pick and choose updates at a more granular level.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with Windows updates. With every version of Windows, I have always installed every update offered. I’ve been dual-booting Windows for a couple of decades, currently 8.1/10. I keep all my data on a separate logical drive/partition (on a separate physical hard drive in my desktops), seamlessly accessed from either OS. I have duplicates on my NAS. I also make frequent drive images.

If an update pooches my system (which has been very, very infrequent for me), I’m less than 20 minutes away from a complete restoration to a known-good installation. If I need to be productive during that time, I simply boot into the other Windows installation from which I can restore a known-good drive image while I maintain access to the same data and remain productive.

For me the Windows OS is a means to an end. Data production is the goal. I don’t rely so much on Microsoft to protect my OS, and I don’t depend on Microsoft at all to protect my data. I take care of those things. My backup software can run under Windows, or I can boot to a Windows PE environment to restore a drive image, or I can even boot to the proprietary backup software that doesn’t need Windows at all, and restore an image.

I’m sufficiently comfortable with my regimen that I don’t use System Restore, and disable it on all my systems. I consider myself an experienced user, and I don’t fear Microsoft or Windows updates.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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I agree with most of that, but forsee one potential problem. If you do get a bad update that kills Windows 10, you can boot the other system, work, and restore Windows 10 to a good state, yes, but you can’t go back to Windows 10 without getting the bad update again, right?

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Microsoft MAY make a decision to have Windows move to a subscription model sometime in the future. Right now there is absolutely no evidence that is going to happen. All statements I’ve seen both official and unofficial say the contrary.

Joe

--Joe

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Microsoft MAY make a decision to have Windows move to a subscription model sometime in the future. Right now there is absolutely no evidence that is going to happen. All statements I’ve seen both official and unofficial say the contrary.

Joe

Absolutely no evidence? They’ve already got Office on a subscription model, for the most part, which includes continual updates. And with Windows, it appears that soon, there will be no way to control which updates are installed, nor when they are installed. In other words, with Windows 10, you will constantly be brought to the latest version of Windows. In my personal opinion, that speaks of a subscription model

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Absolutely no evidence? They’ve already got Office on a subscription model, for the most part, which includes continual updates. And with Windows, it appears that soon, there will be no way to control which updates are installed, nor when they are installed. In other words, with Windows 10, you will constantly be brought to the latest version of Windows. In my personal opinion, that speaks of a subscription model

A “subscription model” by definition means periodic payments to maintain rights of use. Take for example a daily newspaper. If one subscribes to a newspaper, daily updates are delivered for that newspaper. Stop paying the subscription, no more updates.

Frequent free software updates don’t imply a subscription model—there are no associated periodic payments. Office 365 is a subscription model with a monthly/annual fee. Office 2016 is a one-time purchase, with free updates but no subscription fees. Windows is not offered as a subscription model.

The “push” for Windows 10 is targeted toward developers; the larger the user base, the more enticement for developers of Windows Platform Apps. The more extensive the library of Windows Platform Apps, the more enticement for users to upgrade to Windows 10. The chicken and egg conundrum.

It would seem that transitioning to a subscription model for the Windows OS would be extremely counter-productive. The business model is predicated on app sales; The Store gets a cut of each app sale. I don’t foresee Apple or Android transitioning to a subscription model—it would not likely enhance the income stream from app sales from which both profit. As long as Apple and Android stay away from a subscription model, Microsoft would be cutting their own throat to make such a transition; they are trying to build a platform base, not destroy it.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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A “subscription model” by definition means periodic payments to maintain rights of use. Take for example a daily newspaper. If one subscribes to a newspaper, daily updates are delivered for that newspaper. Stop paying the subscription, no more updates.

Frequent free software updates don’t imply a subscription model—there are no associated periodic payments. Office 365 is a subscription model with a monthly/annual fee. Office 2016 is a one-time purchase, with free updates but no subscription fees. Windows is not offered as a subscription model.

The “push” for Windows 10 is targeted toward developers; the larger the user base, the more enticement for developers of Windows Platform Apps. The more extensive the library of Windows Platform Apps, the more enticement for users to upgrade to Windows 10. The chicken and egg conundrum.

It would seem that transitioning to a subscription model for the Windows OS would be extremely counter-productive. The business model is predicated on app sales; The Store gets a cut of each app sale. I don’t foresee Apple or Android transitioning to a subscription model—it would not likely enhance the income stream from app sales from which both profit. As long as Apple and Android stay away from a subscription model, Microsoft would be cutting their own throat to make such a transition; they are trying to build a platform base, not destroy it.

I subscribe to your analysis, Bruce. The fundamental goal for Microsoft is to make Windows 10 as attractive, as a dev platform, as iOS and Android. That’s why they created a unified model that allows porting apps from Windows 10 to Windows Mobile with little effort – developer appeal being the keyword.

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Let’s keep the thread on track. If you want to discuss the Windows 10 update process start another thread.

Joe

--Joe

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I wonder why Microsoft is so eager to get everyone on Windows 10. I understand not wanting to have to support older operating systems, but isn’t Microsoft committed to supporting Windows 7 and 8.1 until certain dates? What do they gain by getting people off those systems before those dates arrive?

Because people running windows 7 don’t need to replace MS Office.

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Because people running windows 7 don’t need to replace MS Office.

Most people running Windows 10 do not have to upgrade or replace Office.

Joe

--Joe

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Because people running windows 7 don’t need to replace MS Office.

I upgraded a Windows 7 installation that had Office 2000 installed. Not a hiccup; Office 2000 continued to run just fine.

I used it for several months until I decided to go with Office 365 for the added benefit of 1TB of OneDrive storage. I’m still running Office 2010 on the 8.1 side of my dual boot.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Because people running windows 7 don’t need to replace MS Office.

Windows 10 runs all versions of Office that were still current when it was released … The only Office version Win 7 claimed compatibility with that Win 10 doesn’t, is the now-defunct Office 2003, which was already defunct before Win 10 was released.

Cheers,
Paul Edstein
[Fmr MS MVP - Word]

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… isn’t Microsoft committed to supporting Windows 7 and 8.1 until certain dates? What do they gain by getting people off those systems before those dates arrive?

This is the difference between a commitment in principle and a commitment that requires resources and execution.

Imagine what Microsoft faces. If they can get the majority of their customer base on to Windows 10, Microsoft can pull resources away from the older versions. And this is regardless of their official commitment to support those older versions.

Nirvana for Microsoft (not achievable, but dreamable) is that everyone uses Windows 10. Then they could focus their entire OS group on that version. Even if someone came along later and asked for support for Windows 7, let’s say, Microsoft could plausibly respond with, “that old thing? Why are you using that? All our customers use Windows 10 and it’s much better. Here, we can help you to upgrade…”

Every software vendor wants their customers to run the latest stuff. Recent versions contain the most advanced code, old bugs are fixed, and the support picture gets easier. The only time this ever changes is when a new release is particularly buggy. Then the vendor Help Desk prays the customers stay on the old version! However even then, the vendor CEO and Marketing departments typically want all customers as modern as possible.

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This is the difference between a commitment in principle and a commitment that requires resources and execution.

Imagine what Microsoft faces. If they can get the majority of their customer base on to Windows 10, Microsoft can pull resources away from the older versions. And this is regardless of their official commitment to support those older versions.

In that case, MS could have just stuck with Win 7 and have progressively enhanced it. After all, Win 7 clearly had an overwhelmingly larger installed base than Win 8, which was such a distaster MS has extended new Win 7 sales indefinitely – and this was done after Win 10 was released! The fact is, Win 7 will require the same level of support throughout its lifecycle regardless of the installed base. That’s because the support required to fix bugs, etc. has only a loose relationship with the installed base and it takes just as much effort to fix a bug for 1,000 users as it does for 10,000,000 users.

Cheers,
Paul Edstein
[Fmr MS MVP - Word]

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…MS could have just stuck with Win 7 and have progressively enhanced it.

Nope. Windows 7 does not advance Microsoft’s strategic objectives. Microsoft has made huge moves into tablets, touch, voice recognition and phones. Only the phone thing isn’t working out.

…MS has extended new Win 7 sales indefinitely…

Uh, where are you getting this from? Windows 7 is already in the Extended Support phase and becomes officially End of Life in January, 2020. Sales ≠ Support, but once support ends you can be sure that sales end too. There’s nothing “indefinite” about it.

Microsoft Support Lifecycle

…Win 7 will require the same level of support throughout its lifecycle…

This is classic technical thinking and reduces organizational dynamics to their simplest mode. As such it fails to take into account Microsoft’s motivations and politics. How so?

– you have assumed that all bug fixes are of equal quality. They aren’t. Microsoft can cut more corners when they are only catering to 1,000 users versus 10,000,000 users;
– you have assumed that there is a fixed timeline between bug report and bug fix. There isn’t. Microsoft can choose to assign more work to a support group, or the same work to a smaller support group. This extends the time to delivery of fixes to reported bugs;
– you have assumed that Microsoft won’t begin passively resisting certain bug reports. Have you never had one of your bug reports closed with the comment, “working as designed?” Certainly I have!
– finally there is the issue of new sales and tech hotness. Microsoft is fairly responsible and rather wealthy. However it must be said that Windows 7 is unlikely to drive new sales. And they are not immune to revenue pressures, nor to technologist fixations with new technology. Do I believe that Windows 7 will get less support from Microsoft in 2019 versus, say, 2016? You bet I do!

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MS could have just stuck with Win 7 and have progressively enhanced it.[/quote]Nope. Windows 7 does not advance Microsoft’s strategic objectives. Microsoft has made huge moves into tablets, touch, voice recognition and phones. Only the phone thing isn’t working out.

Completely irrelevant to the issue of what they could have done. MS already had an OS for each of those platforms before Win 8 was released.

MS has extended new Win 7 sales indefinitely

Uh, where are you getting this from? [/QUOTE]
From Microsoft, of course, and it has been widely reported. That said, it seems they’ve retreated on that more recently, with only OEM sales with Windows 7 Professional being supported till 31 October this year. See: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle

Cheers,
Paul Edstein
[Fmr MS MVP - Word]

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However it must be said that Windows 7 is unlikely to drive new sales.

That, I fully understand, but neither do free upgrades to windws 10.

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However it must be said that Windows 7 is unlikely to drive new sales.

That, I fully understand, but neither do free upgrades to windws 10.[/QUOTE]
But they do, if selling the software that runs on Windows 10 is the goal. Windows 10 is only the platform. The larger the platform base, the more likely developers are to write software that runs on the Universal Windows Platform, and Microsoft gets a cut from everything that’s sold through the Store.

I don’t think we’ll see Microsoft giving away Office in the near future.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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But they do, if selling the software that runs on Windows 10 is the goal

And that’s not going to happen any time soon. Do you really suppose the next version of Office won’t run on pre-Win 10 OSs? For that to happen and be enough to entice many users off Win 7 or 8, it would have to be a dramatic improvement on the current offerings.

To date, I’ve stayed with Office 2010 because I consider both Office 2013 and Office 2016 to be inferior, despite the few new features they’ve added (as an MS MVP, I can get any version of Office I want for free, so cost isn’t an issue). The only reason I’d consider upgrading is to support others who need the features added in the later versions. So far, there hasn’t been much demand for that.

Cheers,
Paul Edstein
[Fmr MS MVP - Word]

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And that’s not going to happen any time soon. Do you really suppose the next version of Office won’t run on pre-Win 10 OSs?

That’s not what I’m saying at all. It’s about a common platform across multiple devices that will attract the attention of developers to the Universal Windows Platform.

I believe that is the revenue stream Microsoft is trying to leverage with Windows 10, the larger the platform base, the greater the attraction, and the sooner the better. It would make no sense to disenfranchise Office users by making the next version UWP only, but I already have the Office Mobile Universal Apps on my Windows 10 phone. I haven’t yet tied them into my Office 365 account, but I will sooner or later.

My main point is that I believe Microsoft will continue to push Windows 10 in order to keep increasing the size of the platform base. I think that is the business model they have their sights set on, and old codgers like me are not their main target. They’re after a younger age bracket. I have Never 10 on my Windows 8.1 dual boot on my desktop and my laptop. But they both have Windows 10 on the other side of that dual boot.

I’m not saying that it’s the right thing for Microsoft to do, or that I condone it in any way. I’m just saying that they are going to continue to push Windows 10 Upgrades. July may not be the cutoff for the free upgrade, either. When (if) the free upgrade is cut off by Microsoft, it will probably be because they have reached their targeted installed base.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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It’s about a common platform across multiple devices that will attract the attention of developers to the Universal Windows Platform.

I believe that is the revenue stream Microsoft is trying to leverage with Windows 10, the larger the platform base, the greater the attraction, and the sooner the better.

I agree. Unless you expect an Office 2019, the next [and last] version of Office is already here. Win10 and O365 will move to subscription model [maybe non-money payment, such as ads] and be continually updated ‘forever’. [Hopefully MS can muzzle their geniuses who like a new branding name every year]

If I had millions, I’d have put a chunk into MS ~a year ago. They seem to finally have replaced product and tech focus with a market and customer strategy, and with the breadth of their product & service range, they’re the best placed tech company for the next decade imo.

If their strategy is as I think, then what bbearen say’s is vital–“a common platform across multiple devices”.

I hope they keep charging for their software though. I avoid Google services mostly because I prefer to get software from software companies, not an ad company. If MS ends up selling us ads instead of product, then inevitably the pressure will shift to improving and maximizing the ad serving and monetization, with a commensurate reduction in focus on software excellence.

Lugh.
~
Alienware Aurora R6; Win10 Home x64 1803; Office 365 x32
i7-7700; GeForce GTX 1060; 16GB DDR4 2400; 1TB SSD, 256GB SSD, 4TB HD

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soon, lots of win7/8.1 users will need to consider the options as support fades.
the one year to download a free win10 upgrade is running down. for those yet wondering, we until July 28th 2016 to make up your mind, but who knows, MS may extend the date? (some say, indefinitely).

while win7 extended support ends on 1/14/2020.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-upgrade?ocid=win10_wol_banner_upgrade

whether the machine is compatible for running win10 is worth checking out and the link will offer info for that.

also, theres the need to prep before upgrading. seeking manufacturers of the machine for support when opting upgrading to win10.

its a personal choice at the end of the day should the machine meet all the necessary requirements but time is moving on.

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MS would be committing suicide, by totally dumping Windows 7 anytime in the foreseeable future.
I already have, but that’s a whole different story.

There’s one little user of Windows 7 that would object in a very loud voice. It’s called the US Government.

It was only just a very few years ago, that the VA finally upgraded all of their thousands of PC’s (terminals) from XP to Win-7.
Up to that point, all the PC’s at the VA were running quite nicely on Windows XP.

Wherever you find giant users of a MS OS, then you will find MS bending over backwards to accommodate them any way possible.

They of course don’t give a hoot about me….. they could care less what OS I want to use. But, that’s nothing new.
I knew that the very day that I first installed MS DOS 2.0 on my first IBM Clone PC.

Some cry out “Oh woe is me, I’ll be without MS Support!”. And I say, “I don’t give a hoot!”. In 36 years, I’ve never asked MS for any support, and I won’t now, or ever in the future.

I truly feel very sorry for those who think they just can’t run their own computers without MS Support.

Well, Y’all have a great day now, Y’hear?

The Doctor

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