Why Microsoft killed the Windows Start button

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http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/375550/why-microsoft-killed-the-windows-start-button

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Interesting. A quote: “Microsoft claims it took the controversial decision to remove the Start button from the traditional Windows desktop because people had stopped using it.”

While I’m one of those who really doesn’t see a huge functionallty or useability difference with the Start screen, I think someone at MS must be smoking the funny weed if they really believe that the Start button has fallen out of favor. It really depends on the user. I see lots of people wanting desktop shortcuts more than using either the Start menu or the task bar.

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I like to keep a clean desktop so shortcuts are out, but the task bar has proven to be extremely usefull.As for the start menu, as long as I can get into the file system with explorer, I could care less if there is no start menu.

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There are so many different ways to accomplish things without the Start Menu on the desktop, this is something that quite frankly is not needed. Plus there are several such easy ways to add a Start Menu back into the Desktop that this discussion about the Start Menu, IMHO, is a moot point. I also only use the Start Menu for very infrequently used apps and a few of the System Tools, and even these operations can easily be added to the Taskbar. As Drew is in favor of saying “Why struggle or stress over Start?”

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I think the main reason for Metro is to try and sell apps period. Customizing is fine if you know how. Think about all of the clueless users who’ve never been involved in that. You know the ones who have a little problem take the computer to be repaired and don’t know about system repair or event logs.
Joe

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Apple does the same thing. How many of the apps available for the iPad are free? It is my belief that Win 8 RT tablets and the iPad are for playing, not for work. To do real work on a tablet you need Win 8, or Win 8 Pro, not Win 8 RT. That is why the Surface Pro is such an exciting concept. Surface Pro will have the Desktop UI as readily available as it is with conventional desktops and laptops.

Heck, I read a post last week sometime comparing the market price of Apple versus MS. How is this relevant? Perhaps because Apple sells so many of those apps (how many of those apps are for playing games or somewhat like garbage that know one wants) I don’t blame MS a bit for trying to sell apps for playing. I will not buy them because I use a PC, whether conventional or tablet, for work. If I buy a tablet ultimately it will run Win 8 Pro. I do not have the luxury of buying all those play toys out there. I have to be able to justify a purchase like that.

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Clint,

BTW, IF, the Desktop Toolbar is enabled, one can have any # of desktop icons, including shortcuts, un check Show Desktop Icons & you will have none (showing) but, yet, have them @ your fingertips, stashed neatly out of sight in the Desktop Toolbar. One can, also, drill down to anything, anywhere from what’s in the Desktop Toolbar. Which fits w/ my agreeing w/ you… if, you’re getting to everything via an Applications fold or Windows Explorer or , or, or, then, yes, who gives a tinker’s about Start.

Excuse the crazy run on sentence. Still, got the point said.

Cheers,
Drew

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From an eperienced user the start menu isn’t a massive problem being gone BUT from a residential user who is not super savvy to the PC the start menu is a key component to their pc. It is where they go to do virtually anything they dont have a shortcut for.

At the same time, as an I.T. Professional, I cannot tell you how many support calls will start with me saying ok go to the start menu, and then navigating a user from there to where I need them to go.

Apple attempted this in the 1st version of OSX, they removed the Apple Menu. People went nuts and Apple respectfully added it back and it has been there ever since because PEOPLE USE IT.

If people use it you leave it alone….. period

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I am, also, an IT Pro & I had stopped using the old start menu long ago. Seems, many others had, also. Now, when my clients call me they will simply get walked down a different path & bob’s your uncle. In time, all this sort of conversation about this subject will just be a vague memory. The 1st (comeback) question will continue to be, “What OS?” & what is appropriate for that System is the ‘path’ that will be discussed. This isn’t the 1st OS w/ differences from the previous & likely won’t be the last.

Cheers,
Drew

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Kill the Start button? They should kill the whole operating system. Windows 8 is merely a phone OS on a desktop.

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Kill the Start button? They should kill the whole operating system. Windows 8 is merely a phone OS on a desktop.

Care to qualify that?

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“Windows 8 is merely a phone OS on a desktop.”

That is 100% incorrect!

Regards,
Drew

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”Windows 8 is merely a phone OS on a desktop.”

That is 100% incorrect!

Regards,
Drew

I agree.. I’ll quote my 18 year old son with regards to his impression about Windows 8 – “Windows 8 looks like Microsoft has tried to nail a disfunctional and poorly designed IPAD to the top of a computer monitor” ..

I’ve personally tried 2 release candidates of Windows 8 – to me, it’s a load of crap and I’ve been a staunch Microsoft user since Windows 3.11. I will not buy it in any shape or form and have already sent out newsletters to all my clients advising them to avoid it like the plague.

It’s a piece of junk and will surely fail miserably .. in my humble opinion of course. I’m betting I’m right.. Microsoft is committing corporate suicide with this crap they’ve decided to dump on the world!

Cheers..

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Have you even tried Win 8? You will get a lot of disagreement on that statement!

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Have you even tried Win 8? You will get a lot of disagreement on that statement!

No, it doesn’t appeal to me at all. The colours are horrible and I don’t want IE shoved in my face every time I bootup.

But I suspect M$ has looked at the way Apple has risen from ranks and now wants to break into the hardware market hoping some of their success will rub off on them. Windows 8 on a phone looks the same way it does on a desktop which is the way the iPhone and a Mac looks.

Similarly, Microsoft is trying to imitate Apple with its Surface tablet hoping to emulate their success. They’ll doubtless sell a few to the Windows 8 hardliners who contribute to this forum, but in the tablet market at least, they’re doomed because not only do they have Apple to contend with, there’s also Google’s Android OS to take into consideration. If they wanted to break into the tablet market, they should have done so years ago, not when the market is already saturated.

It baffles me why Apple doesn’t release its operating system for general sale because if they did, it would sideline Microsoft completely. But I like to build my own equipment, so unless I want to go the Linux route, I’m stuck with M$ for the time being.

But Windows 8? No way baby!

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‘Xircal’,

You know what? To everyone’s surprise & amazement… I’m not even going to bother.

Cheers,
Drew

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Except, why wouldn’t a person, just make a different browser the default, instead of taking (wasting) time ranting against a Microsoft product? Maybe, that’s just, too logical & obvious. Less of an attention-getter, though. :rolleyes:

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’Xircal’,

You know what? To everyone’s surprise & amazement… I’m not even going to bother.

Cheers,
Drew

Careful Drew, you’ll give yourself apoplexy.

But we’re fortunate enough to live in a democratic part of the world where free speech and the right to criticize is fundamental. I’m just exercising mine that’s all.

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Careful Drew, you’ll give yourself apoplexy.

But we’re fortunate enough to live in a democratic part of the world where free speech and the right to criticize is fundamental. I’m just exercising mine that’s all.

You are entitled to your opinion, no one denies that. However, this place is named Windows Secrets Lounge. It is also a technical forum. Please do not find it strange if people don’t bother about what you say, unless you have some substance to back up it up. In this case, your opinion seems not very much substantiated, IMHO. Don’t expect applause, or even acknowledgment of some of the points you made. I see nothing I can agree on.

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You are entitled to your opinion, no one denies that. However, this place is named Windows Secrets Lounge. It is also a technical forum. Please do not find it strange if people don’t bother about what you say, unless you have some substance to back up it up. In this case, your opinion seems not very much substantiated, IMHO. Don’t expect applause, or even acknowledgment of some of the points you made. I see nothing I can agree on.

In any discussion, there are always going to be disagreements, or perspectives offered which differ from those of others.

Or are you trying to tell me that you only want opinions which say nice things about a particular subject?

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Getting back to topic, to avoid throwing myself into a pointless discussion about an incredibly simplistic (and erroneous, IMHO) view of Windows 8, back in February, Paul Thurrot provided a more reasoned argument for the removal of the start button: http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/true-story-missing-start-button-142338

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I red that article when it 1st came out/was written. It makes good sense, states the case & several points very well.

Cheers,
Drew

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Removing the Start button may be indicative of Redmond research being wrong and self-serving simultaneously. Some may remember “Microsoft BOB”. It was a radical interface redesign that was quickly reassigned to the trash bin as a result of customer contempt. Windows 8 may be Bob rides again.

I understand the do or die mentality of Microsoft in the face of the mobile momentum. Moreover, I hope the Surface actually is a viable product. On the other hand, Ballmer is long past his sell by date and will never be confused with either Bill Gates or Steve Jobs.

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Drew and Rui, not worth arguing about. He has already stated he has made up his mind based on pictures and articles. Has not even tried it so no point in pointing anything out.

Oh, and many of us have or had a version of Linux on our Windows PC’s. In many cases Linux is the ONLY OS installed. Linux does work fine on a Windows PC if you enjoy the geek speak that comes with Linux.

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That is true, I will always allow you, or anyone, the right to express your opinion, even when that opinion is made without even trying the app you are writing a negative opinion about. People reading this discussion will have to make up their own minds whether to use an opinion that is formed without practical use or opinions formed after months of use of the app in question.

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That is true, I will always allow you, or anyone, the right to express your opinion….

“You will allow me….” What does that mean exactly? Are you the forum police or something?

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Sorry, perhaps incorrect terminology. Perhaps I should have said I will fight for your right to post erroneous opinions.

Nuff’ said, done with this discussion.

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I didn’t say any such thing. All I said is your opinion is totally unsubstantiated. It does not reflect any experience with the operating system you loath in such a clear way, without ever having tried it. That won’t get anyone impressed about those opinions.

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I didn’t say any such thing. All I said is your opinion is totally unsubstantiated. It does not reflect any experience with the operating system you loath in such a clear way, without ever having tried it. That won’t get anyone impressed about those opinions.

OK, I take your point that I haven’t tried it and from that point of view, what you’re saying is correct.

But that doesn’t change my opinion of it based on everything I’ve read about it and all the images I’ve seen of it.

Also, I think it should be left to users to decide how they want to arrange the Metro layout and not force them to accept icons they don’t want. I’m not an IE fan as you’ve probably noticed and if I were to install Windows 8, it would be the first thing to go. However, it cannot be removed and sits there all the time taking up space which could be better used for something the user is going to want access to quickly.

Same goes for the Market Place link. Well, sorry M$, but I’m not interested in buying anything from you since I’m an advocate of the FSF and can find plenty of freeware apps without having to put money on the table. So will you let me remove it? No!

If you get a few hours spare, I’d encourage you to read this article: http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html

It’s pretty old now but it still makes a very interesting read.

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You are definitely not stuck with anything on the Metro screen.

This is my Metro UI:

Notice the crowded look of the Start Menu. There used to be as many tiles as installed apps, actually many more because many apps included more than one tile. I can have as many or as few tiles as I want, I can arrange them the way I want. I am definitely not forced to accept tiles I do not want.

And this shows all the apps installed on my Win 8 RP on my Desktop UI:

So you can see you choose how much or how little to show on the Metro UI.

This is my Desktop with the windows minimized:

You can see the Taskbar customized for the way I wish to use it, and the lack of many desktop icons.

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Thanks Ted. That’s certainly different from what I’ve read about it.

But I cannot try it unfortunately because my motherboard doesn’t support anything beyond Vista.

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Now that makes more sense. There are many older PC’s that do, and many older PC’s that don’t. It is sometimes hard to understand the differences.

I wonder if some of your problems might have to do with enabling NX in Bios. Some older Bios do not have this enabled and with Win 8 RP this extra security measure is finally being enforced. I would not normally recommend flashing Bios, but you seem experienced enough that you might look at this. A Google search show many sites discussing this.

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Now that makes more sense. There are many older PC’s that do, and many older PC’s that don’t. It is sometimes hard to understand the differences.

I wonder if some of your problems might have to do with enabling NX in Bios. Some older Bios do not have this enabled and with Win 8 RP this extra security measure is finally being enforced. I would not normally recommend flashing Bios, but you seem experienced enough that you might look at this. A Google search show many sites discussing this.

Thanks for the thought, but I’ve already checked all the possibilities.

It’s logical if you think about it. You can’t build in support for something which didn’t exist at the time the component was designed.

It doesn’t bother me though since I have other interests besides IT.

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@Xircal,

Without wanting to look contentious, you run a lot of risks when making statements not based on experience, and thus hard to be sure about. With 3 pics, Ted disproved most of your points.

Let’s admit it, everyone has preferences and sometimes those preferences lead us to make choices that, were not for them, could be different. They can be strong enough to become a bias. This definitely includes me and I do have a bias on this ecosystem business. Although I let my bias clearly condition where I spend my money, and I do not hide my bias when stating my preferences, I will never judge technical products influenced by my clear and unequivocal choice never to spend a dime on stuff produced by the arrogant, self promoted pseudo daily technology revolutionaries from Cupertino. If I had to offer opinions on their technical products, I would do solely on their merits (which they have) or lack thereof (which can easily be found too). No one has perfect products, be that Microsoft, Apple or Google and it’s great that we have a choice.

Here, all of us can freely express our opinions. However, if we want to provide any valuable input to discussions in a technology forum, where a big part of the regulars have an amazing amount of knowledge on the issues debated, we have to go well beyond the mere recitation of unsubstantiated claims.

I think the upcoming months will be interesting and exciting, in the technology area. I don’t think anyone can make sure predictions about what will happen, unless they will be as ridiculous as the Gartner prediction that the desktop is threatened of extinction, but will still be around in 2020. I am sure Microsoft will keep existing for a few years and, by the looks of it, will continue to be a very influential company in this computing business. I cannot wait to start using a Surface Pro instead of my Toshiba tablet running Windows 7 :).

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@Xircal,
I am sure Microsoft will keep existing for a few years and, by the looks of it, will continue to be a very influential company in this computing business. I cannot wait to start using a Surface Pro instead of my Toshiba tablet running Windows 7 :).

Yes, I understand your point of view, but the difference between the two of us is that you’re a Windows man through and through while I’m not.

That enables me to look outside the box so to speak while you live in the hope that Microsoft will once again regain its dominant position in the market by diversifying into the hardware market, primarily by copying Apple’s example. But to achieve that goal, it needs to innovate, not copy other people’s ideas because by doing that, it just becomes another follower, not a leader.

As for your comment about dumping your Toshiba machine in favour of Microsoft’s Surface, I’d advise you to think about that very carefully. At the moment, all we have is hype. Nobody has had a chance to test one and therefore there are no in-depth reviews. It may well prove to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it might also turn out to be a complete flop.

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Yes, I understand your point of view, but the difference between the two of us is that you’re a Windows man through and through while I’m not.

That enables me to look outside the box so to speak while you live in the hope that Microsoft will once again regain its dominant position in the market by diversifying into the hardware market, primarily by copying Apple’s example. But to achieve that goal, it needs to innovate, not copy other people’s ideas because by doing that, it just becomes another follower, not a leader.

As for your comment about dumping your Toshiba machine in favour of Microsoft’s Surface, I’d advise you to think about that very carefully. At the moment, all we have is hype. Nobody has had a chance to test one and therefore there are no in-depth reviews. It may well prove to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it might also turn out to be a complete flop.

I am a user of Microsoft’s technologies, but that doesn’t stop me from using other companies products when they are better. My current browser is Chrome, for example. In my college education, I learned to program in Unix machines and my master’s work was done in a DECstation running Ultrix, DEC’s version of Unix. I have used Macs too. So I am far from a Windows man, although I do have some experience using and developing with Microsoft technologies.

Having personal preferences doesn’t make us blind to anything outside those preferences. I have done a lot of system analysis, so I have quite acutely present the need to have an open mind and make choices based on objective criteria.

Microsoft has made no few mistakes, but it has excellent products from a software engineering point of view. Don’t disqualify them as inept. Building an operating system market dominance as they did, would be impossible if they had bad products. Their hardware products aren’t bad either, so disqualifying them as just big monopolistic morons may be overly simplistic.

I can’t care less if Microsoft maintains market dominance or not. I will keep using their products, as long as they provide the best balance of features and cost for my needs, as they have done in the past. I am quite confident they will have the ability to provide great products and will deliver tablets that are much more than bigger phones.

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A couple of other features of the Metro UI (now understand I do not particularly like the Metro UI and spend almost 100% of my time on the Desktop UI) on the first screen shot, if I right click on the screen a pop up comes up from the bottom showing the All Apps link: (Also note that to access search, you simply start typing anywhere on the Start Menu. You do not need to open a Search box or do anything special, just start typing your search word, etc.)

Clicking on the All Apps link then brings up the All Apps page which indeed shows all the apps installed on my Win 8 RP (these scroll left to right and there are about 3 pages of them. The Metro apps are shown first. All one has to do is to Right Click on an app and select Pin to Start to add a tile for that app to the aforementioned Start Menu. Also take a look at how the app icons are sorted. You can see some of this on the screen shot.

You will also notice several other options including the important Run As Administrator, and even Pin to Taskbar.

Some other things easily found from the Metro UI, place your cursor in the Lower or Upper Right hand corner and bring up the Charms Bar, select Settings (the bottom charm)

Then Select Change PC Settings: (Also notice all the other areas on the settings bar including Control Panel and personalization. Many of these things actually take a user back to the Desktop UI)

The resulting page will give you access to all PC Settings and Personalize settings:

Simple, and I don’t even use the Metro UI

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The thing you have to understand, that other than one Forum, all the Forums in the Windows Secrets Lounge are just that, WINDOWS! Many of us here have tried and still use other OS’s including various versions of Linux and a few Macs. We just choose Windows.

Linux is just too much Geek for many. To be most effective you have to have some programming knowledge or at least be comfortable in the Terminal. Plus there are just too many workaround’s for my likes. Heck I had to install an extra paid app just to get my printer working in Mint. It just stopped being fun for me.

For the Mac, personally I have no experience, just what I have read and that tells me there is not nearly as much customizing allowed. You in essence do have to use what someone else wants you to use or you are out of luck. Perhaps this is good, perhaps not, I do not express an opinion on that since I have no personal knowledge of it.

So I guess you are correct in that for the most part we that actively participate in the Windows Secrets Lounge and subscribe to the newsletters are Windows users through and through.

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The thing you have to understand, that other than one Forum, all the Forums in the Windows Secrets Lounge are just that, WINDOWS! Many of us here have tried and still use other OS’s including various versions of Linux and a few Macs. We just choose Windows.

So I guess you are correct in that for the most part we that actively participate in the Windows Secrets Lounge and subscribe to the newsletters are Windows users through and through.

Strange, when I think about it. I used to be like you: wouldn’t hear a bad word said about M$; myself a dedicated IE user.

But times change, or at least they do for some of us.

So for you Ted, the fact that Microsoft has removed the ability for users to create a blocklist in Windows Live Messenger is OK is it? Not having the ability to block spammers or stalkers anymore doesn’t bother you in the least I guess. You don’t question why this important security aspect was removed? If as you say, you’re a dedicated Windows user, I suppose not.

People are creatures of habit and in some cases it’s just easier to join the crowd and turn a blind eye to everything that’s wrong with a certain product eh?

Oh, and there are some security issues on the horizon with your favourite number: http://blogs.mcafee.com/mcafee-labs/windows-8-metro-brings-new-security-risks

But it’s OK. As a Windows man, you can ignore these trivialities can’t you…..

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@Xircal,

What company does not make mistakes? Have you heard about the Final Cut Pro fiasco, that will have impacted Apple’s stance in the professional video editing market in a rather serious way? What would have you to say to the negligent behavior by Apple and its support people regarding the malware on Macs issue? What about their greediness for high margins and your money, a good example of which is their retina display Macbooks that will prevent you from doing somethings so common as adding memory or replacing a disk without paying their above market prices? And what would you say to their advice about the way you should hold your phone?

Microsoft does a lot of mistakes. Some are fixed, others are not. Sometimes they do serious mistakes with products I use and that annoys me a lot. I used IE for a long time until I got fed up with Microsoft’s inability to fix bugs (IE 9 on x64 has an obvious memory bug that affected my desktop) , even when reported through the proper channels. Although I don’t really like the stupid release cycle chosen by Google, I ended up using Chrome as my default browser. I don’t use Messenger, but if I did, I would most certainly stop using it, given what you have said about the lost ability to block undesired friends. Another example, that I am rather worried about, is the almost certain obsolescence of Windows Live Mesh, to be replaced by a much inferior SkyDrive app.

The good thing about software, these days, is that there are a lot of choices. No one has the perfect OS or the perfect app. When something does not work for you, you can choose other options. No ecosystem allows you more choice than Windows, regarding that. A few wrong decisions (some even stupid) from Microsoft do not change that – regardless of the annoyance some of they decisions cause. The killing of Live Mesh will be something I will serious be annoyed about and just recently the news of no upgrade to Windows Phone 8 for my recently acquired Lumia 800 had a similar effect. What do do? Is that a serious enough reason to succumb to Apple’s greediness?

In what concerns me, no. The day may come for an ecosystem change, but I don’t see it coming soon.

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@Xircal,

What company does not make mistakes? Have you heard about the Final Cut Pro fiasco, that will have impacted Apple’s stance in the professional video editing market in a rather serious way? What would have you to say to the negligent behavior by Apple and its support people regarding the malware on Macs issue? What about their greediness for high margins and your money, a good example of which is their retina display Macbooks that will prevent you from doing somethings so common as adding memory or replacing a disk without paying their above market prices? And what would you say to their advice about the way you should hold your phone?

Totally agree with you. Apple is milking the cash cow for all its worth. But then if Microsoft were to be adored in the same way the Apple’s hysterically inclined followers do, wouldn’t they be doing the same thing? In a way, they do actually do that. After all, you don’t get anything tangible or tactile from Microsoft, just an outrageously expensive operating system.

But at least M$ isn’t touting Windows 8 to be “the most secure ever” in the same way they did with Windows 7. With almost 2GB worth of patches for Windows 7 so far, that has to be considered to be the joke of the decade.

Microsoft does a lot of mistakes. Some are fixed, others are not. Sometimes they do serious mistakes with products I use and that annoys me a lot. I used IE for a long time until I got fed up with Microsoft’s inability to fix bugs (IE 9 on x64 has an obvious memory bug that affected my desktop) , even when reported through the proper channels. Although I don’t really like the stupid release cycle chosen by Google, I ended up using Chrome as my default browser. I don’t use Messenger, but if I did, I would most certainly stop using it, given what you have said about the lost ability to block undesired friends. Another example, that I am rather worried about, is the almost certain obsolescence of Windows Live Mesh, to be replaced by a much inferior SkyDrive app.

The good thing about software, these days, is that there are a lot of choices. No one has the perfect OS or the perfect app. When something does not work for you, you can choose other options. No ecosystem allows you more choice than Windows, regarding that. A few wrong decisions (some even stupid) from Microsoft do not change that – regardless of the annoyance some of they decisions cause. The killing of Live Mesh will be something I will serious be annoyed about and just recently the news of no upgrade to Windows Phone 8 for my recently acquired Lumia 800 had a similar effect. What do do? Is that a serious enough reason to succumb to Apple’s greediness?

In what concerns me, no. The day may come for an ecosystem change, but I don’t see it coming soon.

The problem with your argument concerning a choice of operating systems though is that the majority of programs are written for the one which dominates the market. Consequently, interacting with other users requires the user to have the same applications installed. Those applications (why do I hate the word “apps” I ask myself?) don’t usually work with alternative operating systems. So yes, there are other choices, but those choices may not allow you to do what you want.

That’s the bad news.

The good news is that Wikipedia at least, seems to think Live Mesh is still available. You can see in in the image in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Live_Essentials

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And if you believe anything out of McAfee then I will discount everything you have to say. Quite some time ago McAfee lost most of it’s credibility and has been loosing market share since. If they did not pay to be included by OEM PC developers in new PC’s it most likely would have died long ago.

I do not use IE 10 Metro at all. I use the desktop version. I also use FF and Chrome. I suppose you did not notice those icons on my screen shot. In point of fact FF has been my default browser until the last few days when I switched to IE 10. I use all 3 at various times because I wish to test as much of this beta OS as I can including it’s ability to run competitors S/W.

I also do not use ANY messenger apps, including Win Live Messenger. It’s not even installed on my PC (This is a part of the WLE suite which includes among other things WLM and WL Photo Gallery)

I have NEVER said there were not problems with Win 8 RP. Even though it is very polished for a beta OS there are some problems. At various times I have discussed these problems and reported same to MS. Some of those problems have been fixed with Win 8 RP, some have not.

I do not appreciate your attempts to flame me at all. If you cannot offer constructive comments on this technology (and by constructive I mean good and bad) by actual experience, then perhaps you should not make any comments because flaming another member is against the rules of the Lounge. This entire previous post was a flaming attempt and has been reported as such.

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Every company will do what it thinks can be done if it can get away with it. It’s the nature of corporations and people. That’s another reason why competition is a good thing, real competition. Microsoft is mostly a software company, so no surprises there. From them, you don’t get just an OS. You get several OSes, the best productivity suite in the market, a ton of enterprise directed apps and, among other things, the single best development tool in the market, Visual Studio. They are pretty good, as software goes.

As OSes go, Windows 7 ranks among the best security wise. Just look at the OS X record. Lots of patches and quite a few with a huge lag in terms of patch release vs. bug detection. Same thing applies to the much vaunted Linux versions – last time I looked at stats and I admit there has been some time since I last read about it, some linux versions were the ones releasing the most patches. No one is free from this. If you consider that the market interest of OS X only now starts to be meaningful, in terms of providing economic value to the exploitation of security vulnerabilities, I think Windows fares reasonably well and you won’t find a security company that does not praise the work Microsoft has done since the XP days.

There is no intrinsically secure software. Bugs will be found, no matter how secure the product is claimed to be right from the beginning. Android is, for all the I can read, a security nightmare and it’s a rather recent operating system and, surprise, surprise, it’s made by the incredible Google (who has the worst record of any big company, as I perceive, in terms of producing quality software – I say this strictly as a user of a few of their products and I do it only when theirs is the least bad alternative. There is nothing from Google that I find particularly attractive. Everything looks half baked).

I think the demonizing or the deification of these big companies is a bit silly. We all have preferences. Others have others. Let’s just be rational about it and, when discussing them here, on the Lounge, if possible, make justice to the technical nature of the place.

Regarding interacting with other users and I think you were talking about IM, there used to be IM clients that supported multiple platforms. You can always pick one of those – or go with facebook :).

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Every company will do what it thinks can be done if it can get away with it. It’s the nature of corporations and people. That’s another reason why competition is a good thing, real competition. Microsoft is mostly a software company, so no surprises there. From them, you don’t get just an OS. You get several OSes, the best productivity suite in the market, a ton of enterprise directed apps and, among other things, the single best development tool in the market, Visual Studio. They are pretty good, as software goes.

Yes, but at a price. Microsoft doesn’t give you most of these things. It charges a hefty sum for them. Those that are free are there because if they weren’t, you’d use a third party application instead.

As OSes go, Windows 7 ranks among the best security wise. Just look at the OS X record. Lots of patches and quite a few with a huge lag in terms of patch release vs. bug detection. Same thing applies to the much vaunted Linux versions – last time I looked at stats and I admit there has been some time since I last read about it, some linux versions were the ones releasing the most patches. No one is free from this. If you consider that the market interest of OS X only now starts to be meaningful, in terms of providing economic value to the exploitation of security vulnerabilities, I think Windows fares reasonably well and you won’t find a security company that does not praise the work Microsoft has done since the XP days.

Now, now. Don’t go contradicting yourself by making ‘unsubstantiated claims‘.

Apple’s way of dealing with security issues differs from Microsoft’s in that they simply bury the problem under the carpet. It’s effective in that it gives users the impression that Apple’s security far surpasses Microsoft’s because the number of vulnerabilities appears miniscule in comparison to Windows.

However, Microsoft only releases patches once a month. Consequently, attackers tend to target the day after Patch Tuesday to release their malware in the full knowledge that it’ll take MS a full month to address the vulnerability.

I don’t know which is worse: not admitting to the problem, or doing so, but waiting too long to fix it.

There is no intrinsically secure software. Bugs will be found, no matter how secure the product is claimed to be right from the beginning. Android is, for all the I can read, a security nightmare and it’s a rather recent operating system and, surprise, surprise, it’s made by the incredible Google (who has the worst record of any big company, as I perceive, in terms of producing quality software – I say this strictly as a user of a few of their products and I do it only when theirs is the least bad alternative. There is nothing from Google that I find particularly attractive. Everything looks half baked).

But you’re happy with your half-baked Google Chrome browser….

I think the demonizing or the deification of these big companies is a bit silly. We all have preferences. Others have others. Let’s just be rational about it and, when discussing them here, on the Lounge, if possible, make justice to the technical nature of the place.

Regarding interacting with other users and I think you were talking about IM, there used to be IM clients that supported multiple platforms. You can always pick one of those – or go with facebook :).

Well, there we differ once again. I see practically everyone praising Surface just by looking at an image of it. Nobody has been able to get their hands on one of these yet and therefore all we know is what the hype feeds us. I see nothing wrong in criticizing those kinds of attitudes because to me, it sounds like brainwashing.

I wasn’t referring to IM clients by the way, but rather stuff like Office. I’m retired now, but back in the days when I applied for jobs online and included my CV, I’d often get complaints from HR that couldn’t open the document because it hadn’t been written in the latest version of Word.

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Xircal,

For an internet user, you don’t seem so very well informed and obviously didn’t read enough about the flashback malware fiasco and Apple’s support people behavior, denying that there was a malware problem, on top of the stupid, ignorant and utterly negligent behavior of implying that OS is virus immune, a belief many current Mac users still have. My claims are not unsubstantiated. A quick use of google will allow you to see what I am stating here is exactly what happened. I will also add that Flashback only had the impact it had, because Apple took several months to incorporate a patch that Sun had released well within time to avoid the infection of 600,000 Macs.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/flashback-malware-exposes-big-gaps-in-apple-security-response/4904
Take the opportunity and read what Eugene Kaspersky said about Apple. I bet he knows a thing or two about security. And while we are at it, here, some more food for thought:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/what-microsoft-can-teach-apple-about-security-response/4987

Please do me a favor – research what you write. All Lounge members would benefit from that and you’d have no need to be contradicted in such an obvious way as you have in this thread.

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Xircal,

For an internet user, you don’t seem so very well informed and obviously didn’t read enough about the flashback malware fiasco and Apple’s support people behavior, denying that there was a malware problem, on top of the stupid, ignorant and utterly negligent behavior of implying that OS is virus immune, a belief many current Mac users still have. My claims are not unsubstantiated. A quick use of google will allow you to see what I am stating here is exactly what happened. I will also add that Flashback only had the impact it had, because Apple took several months to incorporate a patch that Sun had released well within time to avoid the infection of 600,000 Macs.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/flashback-malware-exposes-big-gaps-in-apple-security-response/4904
Take the opportunity and read what Eugene Kaspersky said about Apple. I bet he knows a thing or two about security. And while we are at it, here, some more food for thought:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/what-microsoft-can-teach-apple-about-security-response/4987

Please do me a favor – research what you write. All Lounge members would benefit from that and you’d have no need to be contradicted in such an obvious way as you have in this thread.

Oh, I’m sorry. I thought this thread was about Windows 8 which is a MIcrosoft product I believe. Did I accidentally post in the Apple thread?

I’m well aware of Apple’s shortcomings, but to reiterate, their policy is to deny that the OS is vulnerable while MS admits these things, but takes a month to fix them. In the meantime, malware has the opportunity to run riot.

But I don’t understand why you would take that to mean that I was defending Apple in some way or other?

I find Apple’s products aesthetically pleasing and tactile while Microsoft’s incarnations are simply run-of-the-mill copies which exist already which is why I mention them so often, but that’s just my opinion. Others may differ of course, although I cannot for the life of me imagine how anyone could find those gaudy pink, orange and blue keyboards attractive. Some colours look good on certain objects, while on others, they look atrocious. In that respect, Microsoft needs to go look for someone like Jonathan Ive who can bring award winning design changes to their products if they propose to enter the hardware market. If I was in charge of their design team and someone brought me those orange, blue and pink keyboards, both those and the designer would be defenestrated forthwith. 😀

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I would like to think that once a month security patches on a regular basis with occasional “out of band” security updates is far superior to waiting 49 days to issue critical security updates with little or no details on those updates, and then “simply bury the problem under the carpet” when problems crop up with those updates.

As Rui has so eloquently stated please do more research before posting claims that are easily debunked. The articles he linked are very enlightening to say the least. Since I am not interested in Mac’s I had not seen the second article.

At this point in time I agree with him that MS is the best choice of OS’s. I have used Linux, and it just is not for me. Too much work to get things done. I will not use a Mac because I do like the ability to set an OS up the way I envision it should be set up, not the way a developer wants me to. I do not necessarily agree that IE is the best browser. I tend to think it works best for me under most circumstances, but I do use both FF and Chrome regularly.

All my observations about Win 8 have been tested by me personally. I do not take someone else’s word for how good or bad a beta OS is, I test it myself. And these tests involve more than installing, booting the OS a few times, then giving up on it as unusable. I use it as I would my primary OS (Win 7 Ultimate on my PC). I have indeed reported several problems with Win 8 to MS, and MS does indeed welcome feedback and does indeed act on that feedback. It is too bad that others sometimes start spouting things about an OS without even taking the time to actually try that OS.

Some of those bad things written by others about Win 8 RP are easily changed to allow the OS to work the way an individual may want. I posted just one small example in a previous post. Those same nay-sayers do not seem to post information on the easy customizations that allow us to use Win 8 RP the way we want. Why is that? Perhaps it would take some of the bite out of their articles. And unfortunately there are people, without ANY actually experience on the subject, that simply believe these articles and repeat the half truths they read.

I am sorry you do not have the ability to even try Win 8 RP. You might very well appreciate some of the changes in this new OS. No, it is not perfect, but then what OS, even an OS that has been released for years, is perfect? If you find that perfect OS with no security problems, that allows the customizations a user might want, that allows a huge and varied group of apps to EASILY be installed, works seamlessly with many competitors apps and does all this for free, please let us all know because we might all want to try that OS! Until then, IMHO, Win 7 and Win 8 RP comes closest to that perfect OS.

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The only and admitted reason why Apple gets no virus is that they are not attractive enough, number wise, to the baddies. Let us say that this applies to their PCs, yes, they make PCs. Things are changing now that they have adapted the Intel CPU to their machines, their own CPU was too expensive to produce anymore and that applies to their whole market offerings. I can purchase 3 good laptops for the cost of a single Mac one, where is the logic ?
I was away from this site for three weeks and just got back on it recently and find this diatribe about the value of any one machine, it is all in what one is used to, there are Macs in my family and I am called upon to fix them at times as no Mac user can intervene in his machine, they are not designed to be “controlled” but used dumbmingly. My advise is for the windmill operator to go and make sure the pumps are working properly, he might get flooded out. :huh:
Nice being back, guys. JP.

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Yes, I agree. Apple has traditionally just not had the surface attack size in terms of the numbers that MS has had, so naturally they will have attracted less attention from criminals and hackers, …until now.
With Apple software, one also has far more restriction built into it’s usage, you have to use it their way or not at all.
Then there is that whiny socialist Linux user base that has traditionally been hostile to any ideas other than free software. It has always been politically correct to trash MS irregardless of the issue.
In the early days of computing MS came along and made you actually pay for your OS and some of it’s applications, which really p’d a lot of these people off.
Internet protocols sucked and were not designed in large part to what we see in terms of criminality and hacking nowadays.
But the days of the wild west are now over and MS has since made huge efforts to secure their software, while Apple is beginning to get their well deserved and, rightfully, overdue just desserts.

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Getting back to the “start menu issue; There have always been complaints about it. The fact that one traditionally needed to go to the start menu in order to shut Windows down is one good example.Anyone arguing that the loss of the start menu is a big deal and will adversely affect users abilities to work in the OS does not have an argument at all and IMO is simply whining over nothing.

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I have no problem working with Windows 8 and the lack of the Start Button: it makes me stop and think a bit sometimes, and that’s not a bad thing. However, that will not be the same for a lot of potential new users later this year.

I think it was said in these forums quite a few months back that what is needed is for Micosoft and OEM’s to get a big push on user education on the upcoming new version on Windows. I truly believe that unless something is done to educate new users there will be a lot of very upset people over the holiday season this year.

Many of us will have seen the by-now infamous youtube video of Chris Prillio’s dad using Windows 8. A fair proportion of viewers (including myself) say that’s not a fair or representative test, but it does, or should, sound an alarm bell; one that was heard loud and clear all those years ago when the Start Button was introduced. MS ran a lot of marketing to make sure people knew what to do from day one.

We could be as little as 3 months away from retail release without a single mainstream advert or user education program being pushed out to the general public. I hope that will change, soon.

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Here, here Clint!

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I agree, the biggest problem is that people will see something different and not realize that everything they see, EVERYTHING, can be modified to suit their needs. Nothing has to remain the way it is released. That is the biggest draw to Windows IMO, the huge amount of customizations that are allowed by MS. Not only that but there are several ways to accomplish tasks, almost any task.

Those people that can assist in teaching people how to use this new OS, and how to customize this new OS should be in high demand. In my experience the learning curve is not huge, but is definitely there.

Even though there are numerous ways to get around the desktop without a Start Orb, for those that absolutely require it, there are several fine replacements. Just as there are replacements for Windows Explorer, or should I say File Explorer, for those that do not like the app that comes with Windows. This is one of the things that makes Windows unique. You can install apps from many different developers to accomplish the same task that comes by default with Windows.

For example, I choose to use a 3rd party Imaging app rather than the built in Security and Backups, and a 3rd party partitioning app rather than the built in Disk Management app. I am not sure if these type of choices are available for Mac users, or for that matter Linux users.

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Those people that can assist in teaching people how to use this new OS, and how to customize this new OS should be in high demand.

I’m already planning for that now. Well, a guy’s gotta make a buck or two! :rolleyes:

I choose to use a 3rd party Imaging app rather than the built in Security and Backups, and a 3rd party partitioning app rather than the built in Disk Management app. I am not sure if these type of choices are available for Mac users, or for that matter Linux users.

Likewise, I use 3rd party tools for those tasks. They are most definitely also available for Linux. In fact, many of the recovery disks burned by 3rd party Windows imaging tools are powered by Linux. As for Linux partition managers, they are many and various. I have little experience on Mac so not so sure on that side of the house.

/sorry for the digression.

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Come to think of it, Linux in most distros doesn’t have a Start Menu. No Registry, either.

On topic, I don’t use the Start Menu and haven’t used it, all the way back to Windows XP, when it was really being pushed. I think it was there in Windows 98 and ME, but there was also an Office Toolbar, to which I pinned everything and then docked the toolbar to the left-hand side of the Desktop.

So did I invent those Charms Bar and Sidebar ideas before they were built into Windows 7 and 8? No matter — I have always found there’s many ways to skin a Windows cat.

As I said in some other thread, I am not worried about visual presentation, as long as the features I use are available and can be made quick to access from a single screen (with flyouts). What Metro does which I do not like is that it separates Start and Desktop into two separate screens, with few if any direct links between the two. (That is, without the jarring change from a normal window to a full-screen window and back, with totally diffferent navigation and window chrome.) That, IMHO, has got to change. Even if I have to change it myself.

-- rc primak

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Thanks for reference ruirib. This includes the statement that “the Start button may have “disappeared” but that its functionality is still there. In fact, it’s more powerful than ever.” So hopefully Windows users don’t have to panic after all.

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Thanks for reference ruirib. This includes the statement that “the Start button may have “disappeared” but that its functionality is still there. In fact, it’s more powerful than ever.” So hopefully Windows users don’t have to panic after all.

Not in the RTM, it won’t be. Paul Thurrott has posted (second paragraph from the bottom of the post) in his blog that Microsoft is busily ripping out all supporting code for the Windows 8 Start Menu. It isn’t going to be available. “Start” dealing with that reality now, before you upgrade.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have since Windows 95 eschewed the Start Menu in favor of sidebars and the Taskbar. Everything I use on a daily basis has a shortcut, and every shortcut is pinned to a tabbed “bar” of some sort, each of which can be hidden when not needed. Folders of related links or shortcuts operate as flyout menus.

For example, in Office 95, the Office Sidebar could have new, user-defined toolbars filled with shortcuts, with the toolbars added as tabs on the main Office Sidebar. The flyout menues of folder contents were already there. That concept in various forms is still my main desktop paradigm.

-- rc primak

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Not in the RTM, it won’t be. Paul Thurrott has posted (second paragraph from the bottom of the post) in his blog that Microsoft is busily ripping out all supporting code for the Windows 8 Start Menu. It isn’t going to be available. “Start” dealing with that reality now, before you upgrade.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have since Windows 95 eschewed the Start Menu in favor of sidebars and the Taskbar. Everything I use on a daily basis has a shortcut, and every shortcut is pinned to a tabbed “bar” of some sort, each of which can be hidden when not needed.

For example, in Office 95, the Office Sidebar could have new, user-defined toolbars filled with shortcuts added as tabs on the main Office Sidebar. That concept in various forms is still my main desktop paradigm.

Paul Thurrot himself has written extensively about Windows 8. Actually has written in more detail about the OS than anyone I know. The functionality is, indeed, there, through the keyboard and if you want start button like behavior through your mouse, just move it to the bottom left and you can have access to the same menu you did through the Start button in the developer preview. What different does it make if the button is there or something that works the same away shows up when you move the mouse over there?

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Paul Thurrot himself has written extensively about Windows 8. Actually has written in more detail about the OS than anyone I know. The functionality is, indeed, there, through the keyboard and if you want start button like behavior through your mouse, just move it to the bottom left and you can have access to the same menu you did through the Start button in the developer preview. What different does it make if the button is there or something that works the same away shows up when you move the mouse over there?

Unfortunately Rui, we are creatures of habit. To many of us it makes no difference whether the traditional (Since Win 95, remember before that there was something else there) Start Orb is present or not, we adapt to a new world, and a new Desktop UI. To others, old habits are very hard to break.

As many, including me, have stated, we did not use the Start Orb for much anyway. I have customized both Win 7 and Win 8 RP to work the way I want them to work. In both, I use the Start Orb for a few activities, but use those things I developed far more often.

And also like many, including me, have stated, if you really need a Start Orb, then add one. Classic Shell is just one such alternative. These are very easy alternatives.

I choose to look at the many positives of Win 8, and say “well, I can easily work around those items that people are grumbling about, without much thought at all, so why should I stress over something so trivial as the Start Orb.” If you look at any of the screen shots I posted comparing Win 7 and Win 8 you will not be able to tell which OS you are looking at unless you read the Windows version number on the desktop. They look almost identical.

As Drew has stated “Why bother stressing over Start”? Well, Why Bother?

So which is which?

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Watching Win8 fanboys get their undies in a twist for 4 pages when someone fails to demonstrate what they consider to be an appropriate level of adulation just isn’t sufficiently amusing to keep it from seeming pretty much a waste of time: opinions are only that, and while everyone’s entitled to one (or several) they should realize that the rest of the world is unlikely to accord them the significance which their owner may.

But there does seem to be one recurring point of confusion. My impression is that many and perhaps most people who think the Win8 interface is kind of retarded don’t think so because they believe that Mac, or Linux, or Ultrix (nice to see that pop up) have ‘better’ UIs: they think so because it seems so stupid for Microsoft to have abandoned significant aspects of its own Windows UI which has multiple decades’ worth of user acquaintance and acceptance behind it when it could instead have just ’embraced and extended’ it in a more approachable, compatible manner.

If so, this tends to take the wind out of the sails of those who justify their loyalty on the grounds that this is a ‘Windows’ forum for ‘Windows’ people – because Windows, all the way from Win95 right through Win7, is the interface standard against which Win8 is being measured in the particular area under discussion here.

Sure, people can learn new ways of doing things, or learn tweaks that allow them to continue the old ways of doing things – but why should they have to when almost all of what they want to do is what they’ve been doing for up to 17 years now in the same ways? Adding a touch-screen mobile-style interface certainly didn’t require removing the Start button from the more traditional interface, and the suggestion that Microsoft is now channeling Steve Jobs’ ideas about absolute interface conceptual purity is a bit difficult to take seriously.

The bottom line is that what people here think about Win8 probably doesn’t matter much at all. We’ll see how ready typical Windows users are to adopt it soon enough, and their willingness to largely bypass Vista when they didn’t find it an appealing ‘upgrade’ to XP (despite the fact that XP was by then 5 years old) means that the success of Win8 (only 3 years after Win7 was released) is not a foregone conclusion.

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Well, it’s obvious that discussing OSs and hardware will generate much heat (perhaps this could be used to shut down a power station or two!). But reading through this thread made me think about my own opinions, biases and so on.

So let me add my two pennyworth. I suspect that overall, all Oss are much the same in usability, security etc. Obviously it will be easier to do a particular task in one rather than another. So Macs are traditionally used for high end graphics, video and music etc. But with a basic Mac laptop costing ~£1000 and me not wanting to do those things, I balk at buying one – especially when I can get a perfectly good Windows laptop for £300 to £400 which will meet my (specific) needs. We all have to decide what we want to use the device for and buy the best one for that. I’ve put Linux (Ubuntu) on a very old XP laptop and it works fine – but I haven’t used it for any real work, so I can’t comment on if it’s better than Win7. But I do note that it has had many upgrades since I installed the software – a problem when I don’t switch it on for months at a time! I have a PC with XP – and its age shows, being slow and cranky – but then a complete reinstall might help here! Now where did I put the recovery disks…?

Getting back to updates – I do wonder at Apple claiming they are immune to viruses – that strikes me as misleading (and it’s been seen to be wrong). But Apple has succeeded because they’ve conned persuaded people that their offerings are cool (wicked, groovy, whatever) through good marketing (something they were useless at in the beginning!), and people pay through the nose because of that (and in my opinion, keep other hardware/software prices higher).

But what is this thread about? Win8 and whether it’s better than Win7. I’ve not liked the screenshots I’ve seen of it, but then Ted has shown that you can change it to your own taste, so I’m not going to reject it on those (rather simplistic) grounds . As it’s different to Win 7 (more than Win7 was different to Vista or even XP) it will need some education so that people can get used to it. I would argue that proportionally more people use the start orb than they do in this forum – as this forum has a higher preponderance of geeks (OK experts) than in the general public (but I have no evidence for this!).

I’m interested that many of you guys don’t use the start orb – how do you do that? I’ll do a Google search to see.

Thanks for all your comments – I’ve that reading this and the other Woody’s forums to be very helpful. Please don’t degenerate into flame wars (this thread is the nearest I’ve seen to that, as that will detract from the overall helpfulness of the forum).

Access_mdb (first time of posting!)

Eliminate spare time: start programming PowerShell

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Getting back to updates – I do wonder at Apple claiming they are immune to viruses – that strikes me as misleading (and it’s been seen to be wrong). But Apple has succeeded because they’ve conned persuaded people that their offerings are cool (wicked, groovy, whatever) through good marketing (something they were useless at in the beginning!), and people pay through the nose because of that (and in my opinion, keep other hardware/software prices higher).

You hit the nail on the head except for Apple claiming they are immune. I don’t believe Apple themselves ever made that claim. But the fanbois make that claim every chance they get. Its not accurate, but they claim so anyway.

Anyway an interesting point about marketing. Best is a relative and subjective term. Apple products are not really the “best”, they only appear the “best” because of great (read GENIUS) marketing. Who remembers when anything Sony made was gold. It wasn’t because they made good products. There were plenty of competitors making better stuff than Sony. It was marketing hype that built them into what they were. Remember when Steve jobs was forced out of Apple? They nearly went bankrupt without him. MicroSoft came to the rescue. Steve came back and rebuilt Apple into a great company. So where is Apple going to be without his genius 5 years from now? Tim Cook is certainly not bad to have in command, but he’s not Steve Jobs.

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@- bill speaks my mine. Can’t say it better myself.
Sometimes we don’t have to actually experience it to understand it. We’re advanced animals (no?). We learn by gathering information, reading and learning from others (no?). Most of us are not soldiers but wars we understand. Soldiers understand better for sure.
Re Windows interface: To unlearn everything and start learning anew for no reason is not efficient. Most business will avoid it if they can. ‘Extension’ of the interface, and then move to a more efficient interface, maybe a smarter move.
Re Activeword (just typing in ‘search’ to find+start a program): Sounds great at first. The ‘claim’ also says ‘anytime moving away from keyboard increases inefficiency’. These two, I think, only apply to certain work, like software coding. In some engineering work and other (such as electronics and graphics work), mouse is almost the exclusive interface device. Moving away from the mouse, instead, seems less efficient.
Re W8 interface: Personally I like a picture background of the whole screen. However, W8 Metro, IMO, is a better interface. Of course this is the case, the tiles use up so much real estate, as compared to ‘tiny’ icons! But I like the Start button as the depository of occasional use programs. (Why move my hand away from the mouse to type?)
Re Mac: I’m here, a [Windows] Secrets member, I’m kind of bias. At the least I like low cost hardware and many [low cost and widely available] apps to choose from, and many many free apps (formerly called programs or software).

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Thanks for the reference to my posts. I appreciate the fact that people do indeed read these forums.

I still use the Start Orb at times, but generally for opening apps I do not use often or System Tools, etc. I also use this for Control Panel (set up as a menu item rather than a link) For these uses, Classic Shell works very well. It will also work well to replace the Win 7 Start Orb for those that wish to use the Start Orb for everything. This is just an easy customization to implement. I do not understand those that a railing against Win 8 solely for this reason.

To answer the other part of your comment, I set up other means to open oft used apps. I have mentioned this in other forums, but it’s worth mentioning again (please note I use this on Win 7 as well) I set up a folder in My Documents (could be set up anywhere, but all my data including My Documents is on a separate data partition) called Shortcuts. This folder can include subfolders (mine has a subfolder with Office apps). I then Right Click on the Taskbar and choose New Toolbar and point to this Shortcuts folder. This is now what this looks like:

Normally I choose Small Icons, but for viewing I changed to Large Icons. You can see the Classic Shell icon, right where the Start Orb is on my Win 7 OS. You can see my Shutdown and Restart and Log Off icons, just as my Win 7 is set up. You can see the email and browser icons, just as Win 7 is set up.

The other thing you see is links. This Toolbar places the IE Favorites Bar onto the Taskbar as a Toolbar. I can use this whether I am using IE, FF or Chrome browser.

The Classic Shell gives me all the various option the Win 7 Start Orb does. My desktop is free of the conglomeration of icons many people have on their desktops. I just can’t find things when there are too many icons on the desktop.

I also spend most of my time on the Desktop UI. There is a single click when I first boot to get me here. I realize this one click will, after a while wear out my mouse, but with the cost of mice, when mine wears out in several years, I will just buy another.

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I think there is nothing like experience in a real scenario, to be able to have opinions others can rely on. I started using Metro as an everyday interface with Windows Phone, much more than I have experienced with Windows 8. There are great things about Metro, especially about the ability to obtain relevant information very rapidly, but I know Metro is neither complete (it will actually be version 1.0) and I am pretty sure even when Windows 8 becomes my main OS, I will do most my work in the desktop.
This dual nature of Windows 8, which many criticize, is actually, IMO, a strong feature of an OS that will be a transition OS. Users can have the environment they are used to have, while starting to familiarize with Metro. Of course, user acceptance is yet to be seen, and I have no divinatory powers, but I doubt that Windows 8 won’t be a success. It won’t be a Windows 7, but I can bet it won’t be a Vista. On tablets, it will probably be a success (yes, for touch interfaces, Metro is great), although the number and quality of Metro apps will be key to that success.

I find the familiarity argument funny, as it could very well dictate a conservative point of view amounting to no evolution at all, UI wise. The most relevant aspects of the current Windows UI showed up in Windows 95. That’s 17 years ago! Talk about being conservative. I think the move will be a big one, but the desktop is always there. The much talked about Start button does not exist, but there are keys and mouse movements and actions that will open the Start menu, as that isn’t gone. We’ll see how things go :).

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There was a recent thread on the Donation Coder forum where people talked about not using the Start menu even in WinXP and Win 7 because they use some free replacement programs: Find and Run Robot (FARR) and LaunchBar Commander (LBC). I use LBC myself and I love it. (Actually, though the programs are free, they’re really “donation ware” — if you like the program after trying it, you’re encouraged to donate to the developer. I have gladly done so. LBC is one of my favorite programs.)

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This was before Win 8 RP was released. After Win 8 RP was released, many of the 3rd party apps to simulate the Start Orb are still working. Classic Shell works very well in Win 8 RP. It is still to be seen what happens with RTM and Win 8 release.

You can also see my threadhere about my PC automatically booting to the Desktop UI after a very brief stop on the Metro UI.

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I got rid of mine years ago……….

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I use the Windows “start button” all the time, configured for “classic” so that my applications are only another key stroke or two away Eg Word is “start”, W, Excel is “Start” X, Outlook “Start” O, Mozilla Firefox “Start” M…

The majority of my work is done using the keyboard with the least amount of mouse use. I hate the “Ribbon” because it is much more difficult to navigate and therefore I still use Word and Excell 2003 for that reason.

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For non-expert users, the Start button is vital – one can get anywhere using that quicker than having to scan one’s desktop icons or menu bar or lists of previous files for what one wants.

Microsoft does not have a reputation for listening to its users – it just goes on its own sweet(?) way regardless.

Microsoft should concentrate for at least a year on going through its millions of lines of code and removing the ‘dead’ ones.

As far as I (a non-expert, obviously) can see, there is no advantage in changing things unless they get easier and more intuitive to use, and less pro-active (by that I mean trying to guess what you are going to do and doing it first – usually wrongly!). This has not happened yet.

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Yes, Ted, we are creatures of habits, indeed. I guess it only takes a little bit of effort to get used to the new way of doing things, but I can understand how having to deal with new stuff takes us out of our comfort zone and it’s human to resist to that.

I think it’s reasonable to question the need for Metro in Windows 8, if you have a desktop. Why would you need to change something that has consistently worked for so many years? So, questioning that is something I can understand and I think it was a risky decision by Microsoft to have done it. However, this Start button thing, that I really can’t understand. If you have plenty of alternatives, if you move down the mouse and an equivalent menu will show up, does it make a difference whether the button there is permanent or not?

Much ado about nothing, IMHO.

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I agree. Take a look at my screen shots. These are my Win 7 and Win 8 RP desktops. They alternate through the exact same pictures. Look specifically at the Taskbar. Now tell me how can anyone say they cannot use Win 8 because of the Start Orb? It’s there!

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I agree. Take a look at my screen shots. These are my Win 7 and Win 8 RP desktops. They alternate through the exact same pictures. Look specifically at the Taskbar. Now tell me how can anyone say they cannot use Win 8 because of the Start Orb? It’s there!

It’s still not assured that you will be able to get it in the release version, at least the possibility has been discussed. If you have alternatives, fine, but even if you don’t, what is the problem? Actually, there is no denying that, in terms of productivity, there is nothing like the keyboard, to get things done. If this change pushes a bit in that direction, maybe in a few months after Win8 comes out, I may as well be glad the button was removed – I do use it from time to time, even if my most used apps are in the taskbar.

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If it’s N/A, then I can pin the Programs folder in it’s entirety to the Taskbar if I wish. My Shortcuts Toolbar contains all my oft used apps. I’m just not stressing over this. There are way too many important things for me to stress over. This isn’t even a minor inconvenience.

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If it’s N/A, then I can pin the Programs folder in it’s entirety to the Taskbar if I wish. My Shortcuts Toolbar contains all my oft used apps. I’m just not stressing over this. There are way too many important things for me to stress over. This isn’t even a minor inconvenience.

I can’t recall anyone asking you to stress over this, Ted (though for someone who claims not to be stressing over it you sure do spend a lot of time talking about it). It’s when people with your views presume to suggest to people whose views differ that their views are in some way illegitimate that the discussion can start to get more heated.

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It seems that many people are stressing a whole lot over this small inconvenience. And yes, I will talk about it a lot because there are many people that do indeed want to use Win 8 but read the negatives written by the nay-sayers and are reluctant to try. For those people I will continue to write how easy this one small inconvenience is to get around.

For those that seem to think this small inconvenience is a major obstacle, well then stay with Win 7 or Win XP. I do not care. But for those on the fence, I will always talk about the positives of this fine OS. Since the Start Orb seems to be the biggest bone of contention, it is mentioned the most by those nay-sayers, hence I also talk about it the most.

As long as some people are ranting against Win 8 simply because of the lack of a Start Orb, I will counter about how easy Win 8 is to use without that Start Orb.

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I have to declare neutrality here, as I can see both sides of the argument (I’m not planning to upgrade to Win7, let alone Win8, just to be up-to-date. XP suits me just fine.)

On the one hand (and Ted alluded to this), how did people get on with Win 3.x? The other side of the coin, of course, is if the start button isn’t needed, why did MS introduce it in the first place? It must’ve been a good idea then.

For the record, I like the start button, but then I haven’t tried Win8. We all use Windows in different ways, and there’s the rub – why can’t Microsoft give us a choice? I seem to recall a similar argument about a ribbon……….

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Perhaps a choice would be nice, but, and I am not at all positive about this as I am not a programmer, having different choices tends to increase the amount of code that needs to be written and tested, and included in Win 8. People already state that Windows in general, and Win 7 and Win 8, in particular, are getting too large already. Would this not add immensely to the code and hence the released size of Win 8? It seems that it would also add to the complexity of an already complex OS.

In addition to this, there have already been discussions on the numbers of different versions of Win 8. Although the number of versions is less than Win 7, if we count 32 Bit and 64 Bit as separate versions there are already 8 different versions: Win 8 RT, Win 8 , Win 8 Pro and Win 8 Enterprise, all in 32 and 64 bit versions. This would add even more versions. Boy what a mess we would have.

I believe MS has opted for the best alternative here. Now I will be a little surprised if none of the Start Orb alternatives are allowed to be installed. This would be a departure from Win 8 CP and Win 8 RP, and kind of disappointing. I could easily live with it but I would be disappointed.

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The start orb alternative you speak of seems to demonstrate there is not much additional complexity in providing the option. The main reason the option isn’t there is Microsoft for better or worse wants to wean users from the Start menus and believes the future lies in Metro. The only way Microsoft can hope to compete with Apple and Droid in the phone and tablet universe is to get developers to write Metro apps to counter the huge lead Apple and Droid now have. A $1000 Surface Windows tablet isn’t going to do it IMHO.

Jerry

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I am so anxious for a time when there is no (more) speaking of start buttons or menus. I didn’t use ’em in 7 enough to mention & 8 works beautifully the way it is. As for its Start, I spend 100% of my time on Desktop, anyway, so it’s all a moot point. Plus, in actual fact one can get to this more directly, quickly & efficiently in 8, as is, than in 7, anyway. Ergo, I’ll 2nd that all the rhetoric over this sphere of conversation is IMO, downright old, boring & frankly silly. Reality is, quite simply, there isn’t an issue, @ all. Every Windows OS has some differences to the previous… so we discover & use the ones in this OS… the next OS, in another 3yrs will have differences, again, too.

Let’s leave the ‘old dogs, new tricks’ obstacle to dogs… dogs are smart but, humans are supposed to be able to adapt & cope w/ (new) things, even better. A little open-minded effort & listening to others who are past the learning curve & we could have more smiling instead of grumbling & thinking this are dumb or mysterious.

There are a plethora of good reasons why Windows8 is the way & what it is.

Cheers,
Drew

Oh & PS: Using APPs does not mean having to use Win8 Start, btw. And, YES, choice IS there between using Start or not & using Desktop, exclusively.

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Drew
You will probably hear a lot more complaining when the less than knowledgeable PC users get Windows 8 unless the PC makers add a start orb. I don’t see that happening with MS determined to ram Metro down people’s throat.
Joe

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I dunno what to say anymore (sigh). There IS a Start icon, #1 & I fail to see the perception of ramming anything down ppl’s throats. If that was the case how could so many of us manage to not even be using the Start screen?

& no, I’m not just being argumentative or an ostrich.

For example, sometimes I’ll do a search by hitting the Start icon (button), instead of Win Key and then type what I’m after anywhere on the screen, how handy that is. Other than that I use Start to hit the Desktop tile upon Boot-up & never look back. The rub is MANY (others) do the same. That said, is hard to comprehend complaining about this so-called Metro enigma.

There IS a Start button, not much need or call for it but, it’s there.

And it’s highly unlikely manufacturers or System Builders will add (what’s already there)

But, yes, I know it will be a while before the noise about this dies down. Maybe, I’ll buy earplugs… just kidding… in my capacity I’m going to have to smile nicely & deal w/ it as “just another day @ the office” & help my clients or ppl in forums.

Cheers,
Drew

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I dunno what to say anymore (sigh). There IS a Start icon……
:
:
There IS a Start button, not much need or call for it but, it’s there.
:
:

Cheers,
Drew

Drew can you show us an on-screen picture of this Start Button, so we can all recognise it when we see it?;)

Seriously though, what many champions of the new OS seems to be overlooking is that contributors to this thread are either enthusiasts or professional users. None of us are “Great Aunty Mable. I am planning my response to Win8 and new hardware in the run up to the holiday season, but it’s difficult to know exactly what the response will be without seeing the implementation by OEM’s.

Do I recommend to my residential clients that they stay on Win7 and know they will be (ignorantly?) happy, or do I drop them in the deep end and expect phone calls on Christmas morning from people who can’t navigate their way around?

Do I risk part of my business (for business, read livelihood) on other people’s perceptions of a new Microsoft product – it’s a genuine and tough question and one that gives me the collywobbles when I think about it.

It’s not quite as simple as saying “there is a start button”, or “press the Win key” (that most users have never touched before), or even saying “install a 3rd party shell script”. It’s about the out of box experience – and that is radically different, unless OEM’s do something to soften the impact.

Now, don’t go getting me wrong, Windows 8 is a fine OS, even in it’s beta state: but I am genuinely concerned about how the general public (who have far less experience than we do) will take to it. Will they stay in Metro and use Facebook, Twitter and Youtube, or will they stumble around, get annoyed and rant and rage at the system supplier (me)?

Frankly, as it stands, I am leaning towards advising less experienced residential users to stay on Windows 7 if only because I know that there is far less potential for a shocked reaction and negative impact on my business. That may change quite quickly if, come October, there is a good degree of end-user education and support from OEM’s

For myself: I’ll be running at least one install of Win8 from day one – because I need to.

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I do not know if it was stated here or in another Forum, but after using Win 8 100% of the time since Win 8 CP was released, when I go back to Win 7 (I did that yesterday to apply the patch Tuesday patches) it just feels clunky! It feels slower and I’m finding myself thinking “Come on, do something”!

It is just not as fast for my every day needs anymore. Don’t get me wrong, Win 7 is still an excellent OS, it’s just not as fast on my PC. For those using spare PC’s to test Win 8, if the hardware is not as fast or older, and you do not see much of a speed change between Win 7 and Win 8, consider the difference in the hardware. If you used the same H/W, as I do in my dual boot setup, you might be surprised at the difference.

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“collywobbles”, must be a UK saying. LOL. I tend to use American colloquialisms myself, but this one made me chuckle.

I am going to take the tract that Win 8 may actually increase business for those that set up PC’s for “Great Aunty Mable”. Yes, there will be many outcries for help when this OS is released. I think those cries will most likely come more from those buying new PC’s than those upgrading. The upgraders, at least initially, will be those that have been testing Win 8 betas for the most part IMO. After a while we will start seeing more and more upgraders with questions.

I know MS would prefer everyone to upgrade right away, but I believe it will take a while after the initial release. You will see all of us that have been testing Win 8 RP that have decided this OS is for us, especially at this price, jumping in right away. The vast majority of those others may slowly begin to go through the upgrade process.

There will still be a huge demand as there have been huge numbers of people testing this new OS. I know for me, the price was the ultimate determining factor. I do like the OS very much, but I also like Win 7 (even though it does feel clunky).

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Tinto
I agree with you completely. I think a lot of the people here have forgotten their frustration when they first tried Windows 8 last year and discovered Metro. I also don’t see this going over well in big business. Many are just starting to switch from XP and a lot of people who use computers daily are quite clueless about using anything but what they use daily. If you don’t use a tablet or fancy cellphone the whole Metro screen is completely foreign. I also think money is tighter than when Windows 7 came out. I’d like to see a side by side comparison of Windows 7 RTM with no updates and Windows 8 RTM on performance.
Joe

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Joe, This (PC World)is probably not exactly what you are looking for but it does shows some comparisons between the two.

Edit: Another speed test at PCMag

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From the article:
[TABLE=”width: 630, align: center”]
[TR]
[TD=”width: 50%”]Startup
(seconds, lower is better) [/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]38 [/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]17 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=”width: 50%”]Shutdown
(seconds, lower is better)[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]12.2[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]9.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=”width: 50%”]500MB File Group Move
(seconds, lower is better)[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]25.2[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]29.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=”width: 50%”]Large Single File Move
(seconds, lower is better)[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]46.4[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]46.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=”width: 50%”]Video Rendering
(minutes:seconds, smaller is better)[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]1:22[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]1:11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=”width: 50%”]Geekbench 2.3 64-bit tests
(higher is better)[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]8090[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]8187[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=”width: 50%”]Geekbench 2.3 32-bit tests
(higher is better)[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]5962[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]6122[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=”width: 50%”]PCMark 7
(higher is better)[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]2313[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]2701[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=”width: 50%”]Sunspider
(ms, lower is better)[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]180[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]144[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=”width: 50%”]Google V8 (v.7)
(higher is better)[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]3079[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]6180[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=”width: 50%”]Psychedelic Browsing
(higher is better)[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]3997[/TD]
[TD=”width: 25%”]5292[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I guess a 21 second improvement in boot time is not a major deal for me. And shut down time is only 3 seconds faster. Again, no big deal. I suspect the differences might be even less in lower end hardware. None of the other specs seem to be big differences either.

Jerry

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Even if there was agreement that the differential in Start-up & Shutdown are no big deal there is other & more that leaves Win8 technically superior. 1stly, it needs & uses less resources (CPU & RAM); it handles & manages these resources better. It will run happily on less robust gear. Due to these things & more the overall performance is better. Boot & Shut, whilst maybe not a big deal, are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the techology, under the covers & how that translates or manifests itself into features & daily use (results).

Cheers,
Drew

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All the factors you cite should have shown up in the performance tests and I didn’t see a significant performance differential. Even given all that, the thing that annoys me the most about Windows 8 is the four hot spots at the corners of the screen with no icon indicating their presence. I find myself activating them a lot. I just recently had a customer who was going crazy triggering Windows 7 Aero Peek hot spot in the lower right corner of the screen until I disabled it for him. I can just imagine the complaints if he upgrades to Windows 8 and there’s no way to disable the hot spots.

Jerry

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Jerry,

How are they going to work, if, they are disabled? They exist of good reasons & to be used. Maybe there’d be keyboard shortcuts to fall back on but… w/out the corners kinda hog-ties a user from some of the functionality & navigation w/in 8. No Charms, except Win+C; Win for Start screen; APP Bar would be killed, too?;& nothing but, Win+X for the Power User menu. Personally, I’ll just guide & aid my customers in discovering & learning the use of Win8, same as I did.

I’m happy to be w/out the old start menu but, sure would not want to be w/out things Win8 does have. Works well but, wouldn’t if stuff was disabled… just MO.

Those corners, your saying are so terrible, make doing & finding things in 8 fast & easy… be dreadful w/out them, IMO.

Cheers,
Drew

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Jerry,

How are they going to work, if, they are disabled? They exist of good reasons & to be used.

Call me crazy, but I have an idea that just might work. They could put one round icon in the lower left hand corner of the screen that would activate only when you clicked on it. When clicked it would present a menu of all the options the four corners now give. we could call it – wait for it- a Start Orb!

Failing that, at the very least they could have required a click on the hot spots, not merely an annoying mouse over. Juts my humble Opinion.

Jerry

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Should bite my tongue, I spose but, oh well…

I’ve never felt there was a “4 Corner” thing happening, anyway. (I don’t count “Show Desktop”; that’s always been there & rarely gets used) There’s 3 corners, @ best & 2 or those are both the same (Charms Bar). 4th isn’t, really a corner, per se… on the edge is the APP Bar. Term is a bit of a misnomer… should be “2 or 3, almost 4 Corners, sort of”.

See, theory is, if, Win8 used better lingo & terminology, ppl would have an easier time w/ it. Ergo, henceforth, will be called, “2 or 3, almost 4 Corners, sort of”. Everybody ok w/ that? Kewl 🙂

:^_^:

Drew

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Jerry,

How are they going to work, if, they are disabled? They exist of good reasons & to be used.

Call me crazy, but I have an idea that just might work. They could put one round icon in the lower left hand corner of the screen that would activate only when you clicked on it. When clicked it would present a menu of all the options the four corners now give. we could call it – wait for it- a Start Orb!

Failing that, at the very least they could have required a click on the hot spots, not merely an annoying mouse over. Just my humble Opinion.

Jerry

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Unless we start discussing something new here, I guess it’s time to “bug out” of this thread. Sorry for the American colloquialism. Those that decide to use the new desktop and let it work for them and customize it the way they want will be happy, those that choose not to will be discontented. Neither side will change the mindset of the other.

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One last parting shot and I’ll drop this thread. Let me install the classic shell and give me an option to kill the hot spots and i would be very happy with Windows 8. I have run every Microsoft OS since the release of MS Dos and this is the first one I’ve been disappointed with at release and cannot recommend.

Jerry

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I do not know of any way to kill the hot spots. I actually sometimes use the Charms Bar although a click to activate alternative would not be unwelcomed. I guess I have grown accustomed to it. The left bottom corner hotspot is effectively covered by Classic Shell so it is much more difficult to activate the normal Start Menu hotspot. I am going to send a recommendation on this change although I suspect this is one recommendation that will not be followed.

There is however a setting in the latest version of Classic Shell to Skip Metro to enable the OS to automatically go to the desktop after a brief stop at the Metro UI. This particular change was driving me batty, even more batty than normal, trying to figure out how I accomplished this.

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I don’t know of any way to disable the hot spots either. A prime tenant of programing should be to never do something the user didn’t ask for. Requiring a click is a good way to determine the user really wants to do the hot spot function.

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I have posted this to the Microsoft Answers Forum which is the method MS has suggested to offer suggestions on Win 8. I do not expect results, but if not I will live with them.

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I posted it to the Windows 8 IT Pro Forum but it is too close to maufacturing release to consider any substantive changes at this date even if they agree with it. I suspect they are concentrating fixing any remaining bugs at this stage.

Jerry

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I believe that is correct. I could foresee an update that includes this if enough feedback is received.

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When I was in the Air Force we always said “10% never get the word” and that was a lot closer to correct than you would think. There are going to be users who buy new computers, after Windows 8 comes out who have not heard anything about this. Windows 8 is going to sound like Windows 7 to them, and everything will be completely new to them. These same users may not have ever used the Start button anyway.

It’s going to be interesting to see how people who do not follow these things feel about Windows 8. Will they take the computers back to the stores, (or send them back to the on-line retailers), or will they not notice the difference?

At this point there is not much point in talking further among ourselves. We are the 1%, and some of us like it and some of us don’t, but there are not enough of us to make or break Windows 8, so it doesn’t really matter what we think.

What will the other 99% think. That will be interesting to see.

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I never really thought about it before Windows 8, but a lot of people don’t use ther computers to do work. They write email, check face book, watch movies, listen to music, play games, and other stuff, but no work of any kind gets done on their computers, and a touchscreen interface, may actually work better for them. The Metro UI may be just what they want to access these things. Windows 8 could be a big success among some users.

We and Microsoft are going to find out.

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Asking the obvious… how are you going to access Start button (yeah, there is 1), APPs Bar, Charms & Power Users Menu, when they are wanted for the tings they do & that they offer, if the things are disabled? Geeeesh.

—————————————————————
And, by the way, Prescott, remember Win8 works very, very nicely on non-Touch gear, as well. And for the segment who DO work on computers Win8 may prove to have a high ROI for them; many of the achieved design goals of Windows8 were geared towards Enterprise. As you say, in a short few months, we’ll have a pretty good idea regarding impact, use & adoption of Windows8. Once understanding & awareness improves; the din, rhetoric & misunderstanding of Start subsides, the OS may well begin to flourish… we’ll soon see. Taken open-mindedly, it’s really a quite fine OS. And the concepts applied as computing progresses make heaps of sense.

—————————————————————————————–

Andy (‘Drewski’),

If, you are going to make the kinds of statements as in Post #101, back them up, support them w/ facts. There are reams of material that counters what you are trying to suggest. So, as not to wrongly influence folks that don’t know any better, offer something concrete & some technical basis to justify your rather strong & extreme remarks. Something, objective, fair, reasonable & grounded in fact. Would help give credibility & merit for people who may not agree or who have no idea to what you refer or why you are saying it.

Regards,
Drew

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Asking the obvious… how are you going to access Start button (yeah, there is 1), APPs Bar, Charms & Power Users Menu, when they are wanted for the tings they do & that they offer, if the things are disabled? Geeeesh.

All Microsoft needed to do is have an option require a click to activate them rather than the annoying simple mouse over that triggers them when you don’t want them.

Jerry

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Sorry, Jerry, I’m still, stuck back @ why or when they would not be wanted. IT’s easy to not hit them, by accident & if, things (windows) are not jammed tight into the corners it doesn’t happen, either. OR avoid the issue & use keyboard shortcuts, instead… except for accessing the live APPs Bar

Cheers,
Drew

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All I know is I frequently hit the hotspots when I use the desktop and its a real pain in the A**. An option to require a click for the once every three months I want to use them would be very useful. That was one of the beauties of the old start orb in Windows 7. Mouseing over it did nothing, you had to click on it to trigger it. And it contained everything in one spot – not four.

Jerry

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Fair enough, Jerry, I guess, maybe some care is necessary to not hit something inadvertently. I’ll admit, I do, occasionally, hit things accidently… I just yell @ myself & go @ it again… happens less & less often… practice makes perfect, I spose. (This is just a wee joke)… Really, there’s only 3… the 2 on the right are both the same, lol.

It is better in the RP than it was in the CP. We knew the BT was working on this between the two. Seriously, it does help to not have things tight into the corners.

Cheers,
Drew

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You know, if I accidentally activate Charms Bar or Start Rectangle, so what, it does not prevent me from continuing what I am doing. Heck, usually I barely notice if Charms Bar pops up. I just move my cursor slightly to what I really wanted to hit. Even if there was a click to activate Charms Bar, I would still miss the point I wanted to touch initially and would have to move my cursor anyway. Or I activate the show desktop (which was also in Win 7) These things are not even irritations to me. I have my Taskbar auto hide and I am always activating it by accident. That does not irritate me any more or less than Charms Bar or Start Rectangle.

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Ted, you have to keep in mind that nothing is a problem unless & until viewed as such (1st).

Cheers,
Drew

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To each his own. It irritates me and and the show desktop option in Windows 7 irritated one of my customers. At least in Windows 7 you can turn it off.

Jerry

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Jerry, I have to agree with you.

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I hate the hotspots. I spend more time on my computer than i spend in my loungeroom. It’s like having MS ghosts jump out at you in your loungeroom. So yes, it’s a problem.

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Maybe, time to ring Ghost Busters.

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