Which files should not be moved

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I’ve done a search with no real luck so I figured I’d ask here. What I want to do is simply determine what files are considered unmovable. Since I dual boot this is especially important as I’m afraid I may have accidentally placed a file within Windows that Windows can’t handle due to things like the difference of naming conventions. I believe these files all get marked as unmovable. Any other idea’s are of course welcome.

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What I want to do is simply determine what files are considered unmovable. Since I dual boot this is especially important as I’m afraid I may have accidentally placed a file within Windows that Windows can’t handle due to things like the difference of naming conventions.

Gregory,
Hello…. I have no idea what you mean as “unmovable” I have a machine that i “Quint boot ” …Each OS stays at it’s respective place ( Hard drive or Partition ) Other than “personal” files or folders why would you want or need to move some “OS” file one HD or partition to the other ? Sure…. you can move or delete any file you want to ( if you have some tools ) However there will be consequences for doing so …I know because i have deleted (or moved to recycle bin ) of what many would call OS “sacred cows” sometimes with a good outcome … sometimes not, and a “recovery” is in order. Bottom line……..
1. Yes! you can move or delete anything ! ( if you have the tools and desire )
2. It may not work out as you want.
3. Please explain … ” difference in naming conventions”
Regards Fred

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I do not know what you mean by “unmovable files”. Perhaps if you described your dual-boot setup it would help. Usually, for a dual boot each OS is in a separate partition and each has its own set of files. For example, on my desktop I dual boot Win 7 and XP on two different disks. Each OS has its own Windows, Program Files and Documents and Settings (or Users) directory. While i am in one OS I never touch the files on the other OSes partition. All of my data is on another partition, and I share that between the two OSes.

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I do not know what you mean by “unmovable files”. Perhaps if you described your dual-boot setup it would help. Usually, for a dual boot each OS is in a separate partition and each has its own set of files. For example, on my desktop I dual boot Win 7 and XP on two different disks. Each OS has its own Windows, Program Files and Documents and Settings (or Users) directory. While i am in one OS I never touch the files on the other OSes partition. All of my data is on another partition, and I share that between the two OSes.

By unmovable I mean any files that can’t be accessed by a defrag program or can’t be accessed by Windows due to things like naming conventions. For instance I once tried placing a backup of some files from Ubuntu on a shared drive but, the files had a naming convention incompatible with Windows so when I tried to modify the files with Windows it simply failed to do anything with the files at all claiming things like the files didn’t exist. I of course, realized why I couldn’t do anything with the files and deleted them successfully using Ubuntu.

As for my dual boot setup I have Windows in the first couple partitions (Windows Launcher, C) Then Ubuntu, followed by an extended partition with my shared data partition, and finally a Linux Swap Partition. You’ll notice in my signature I’ve the basic information on my setup. As far as file sharing I only sharing I’ve set up is between mutual applications namely Thunderbird via (I believe) the profile manager, and uTorrent via Wine and a Symbolic link within Ubuntu pointing to my Windows Preferences for it, Finally Tomboy notes share notes using a symbolic link.

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By unmovable I mean any files that can’t be accessed by a defrag program or can’t be accessed by Windows due to things like naming conventions. For instance I once tried placing a backup of some files from Ubuntu on a shared drive but, the files had a naming convention incompatible with Windows so when I tried to modify the files with Windows it simply failed to do anything with the files at all claiming things like the files didn’t exist. I of course, realized why I couldn’t do anything with the files and deleted them successfully using Ubuntu.

As for my dual boot setup I have Windows in the first couple partitions (Windows Launcher, C) Then Ubuntu, followed by an extended partition with my shared data partition, and finally a Linux Swap Partition. You’ll notice in my signature I’ve the basic information on my setup. As far as file sharing I only sharing I’ve set up is between mutual applications namely Thunderbird via (I believe) the profile manager, and uTorrent via Wine and a Symbolic link within Ubuntu pointing to my Windows Preferences for it, Finally Tomboy notes share notes using a symbolic link.

Gregory,
Hello… OK now im understanding.. what your saying .
1. Linux is able to “see” windows drives…. NTFS files folders….but….. Windows can’t “see” HD’s .Ext2, 3, 4, filesfolders . So for example … when I’m running my Linux Mint 9 i can access my NTFS formatted Windows Data HD . However when I’m running Windows … it doesn’t see the Linux HD as anything but a blank connected HD. Am i on the right track ? Regards Fred

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Gregory,
Hello… OK now im understanding.. what your saying .
1. Linux is able to “see” windows drives…. NTFS files folders….but….. Windows can’t “see” HD’s .Ext2, 3, 4, filesfolders . So for example … when I’m running my Linux Mint 9 i can access my NTFS formatted Windows Data HD . However when I’m running Windows … it doesn’t see the Linux HD as anything but a blank connected HD. Am i on the right track ? Regards Fred

Somewhat, I’m talking more about file formats such as Capital letters, one OS treats file names that are the same except for capitalization as the same while the other treats them as separate files. Also Windows may not recognize a file with certain extensions. If one such file is on the NTFS partition windows uses like for instance a trash file (Since Windows and Linux handle them differently) and Windows tries to modify them it will usually fail to acknowledge said files exist while still showing them in explorer.

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Somewhat, I’m talking more about file formats such as Capital letters, one OS treats file names that are the same except for capitalization as the same while the other treats them as separate files. Also Windows may not recognize a file with certain extensions. If one such file is on the NTFS partition windows uses like for instance a trash file (Since Windows and Linux handle them differently) and Windows tries to modify them it will usually fail to acknowledge said files exist while still showing them in explorer.

Gregory ,
Hello…. sorry i haven’t a clue . All that i do know is that Linux through software ” Wine” can run some Windows programs , but don’t think that it works the other way around. Hopefully some who does know will answer your question . Regards Fred

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heya,

Capitalization works in windows the same as in linux/ubuntu. It’s more the type of partition that dis/enables this then the OS. Also file extensions are not ‘hidden’ by windows unless you have the explorer option turned on to hide system-protected files (or hidden files). Other then that, ANY file you place from ubuntu to a windows compatible partition (so fat/fat32/ntfs or that newer win7 exfat format) should be readable without a problem. The only thing that you might encounter is editing a text file in any linux might get you a file in windows without carriage returns (so it looks like 1 big line), but those are easily converted with the right tools.
If all else fails, just make a separate fat32 partition (or say usb stick)… there’s not much fooling around either windows or ubuntu can do with that…

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heya,

Capitalization works in windows the same as in linux/ubuntu. It’s more the type of partition that dis/enables this then the OS. Also file extensions are not ‘hidden’ by windows unless you have the explorer option turned on to hide system-protected files (or hidden files). Other then that, ANY file you place from ubuntu to a windows compatible partition (so fat/fat32/ntfs or that newer win7 exfat format) should be readable without a problem. The only thing that you might encounter is editing a text file in any linux might get you a file in windows without carriage returns (so it looks like 1 big line), but those are easily converted with the right tools.
If all else fails, just make a separate fat32 partition (or say usb stick)… there’s not much fooling around either windows or ubuntu can do with that…

I believe all my partitions are NTFS except for the Ubuntu, SD Card, and Swap partitions. I happen to know for a fact that some files are not compatible be it because of the partition or the OS (though the OS does determine the primary File System). For instance the backup I mentioned earlier contained something that Windows/NTFS didn’t like. Most likely it was a combination between an extra large number or periods in the file/folder names, folder/file names with a lot larger file names than usual (though I don’t think that in itself is a big problem), and the shear number of directories (many programs won’t work beyond a certain size of directory path-especially command line based programs).

So that’s it clear the big idea behind this thread was to:

1.) deal with a problem with my Anti-Virus breaking (I thought maybe it was an incompatible file, turns out it was an un-erasable temp file (C:WindowsSystem32configsystemprofileAppDataMicrosoftWindowsTemporary Internet Files”

2.) Deal with any files my Defragger’s may be missing (I use MyDefrag and the built in defrag via the command line-both use the same API but, MyDefrag add Optimization).

Also, it seems the name of the thread was changed, I believe the original title was something about find unmovable files.

Edited for clarity/spelling.

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You really should not waste time and posts with generalities.

Windows with always consider to be in use the path
C:WindowsSystem32configsystemprofileAppDataMicrosoftWindowsTemporary Internet Files

CCleaner will mark for deletion on reboot, which removes it and what it contains, but as Windows starts up it will rebuild it again and hold it in use.

Defraggers find many files locked when running under Windows.
Many defraggers overcome this by the option to Defrag on Boot – i.e. before Windows puts things into use.

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You really should not waste time and posts with generalities.

Windows with always consider to be in use the path
C:WindowsSystem32configsystemprofileAppDataMicrosoftWindowsTemporary Internet Files

CCleaner will mark for deletion on reboot, which removes it and what it contains, but as Windows starts up it will rebuild it again and hold it in use.

Defraggers find many files locked when running under Windows.
Many defraggers overcome this by the option to Defrag on Boot – i.e. before Windows puts things into use.

The defragger I use doesn’t have said option but, it does use the Windows API and adds optimization which makes me feel very safe with it. The files I want to be able to move are mostly non-standard unmovable files. Things that were created by another program or OS that don’t quite comply with the FS or OS. OpenOffice (which I’ve not installed on this particular system) is one such program that will create file names on NTFS that NTFS doesn’t really like (files with names like fdsfdsaf.fdsafdsafereafvsgh..gfjajlfjsdjglerjalg.fjeoajlfdjaoejdil [obviously this isn’t an actual filename] which have so many extensions and are so long that you can’t manipulate them with explorer). The risk with defragging before booting is that when Windows boots it actually looks for certain physical locations of certain files before searching for files that could be moved, obviously I don’t want to touch any such files, especially since unlike UNIX systems if something like that breaks it’s almost impossible to fix it on Windows. UNIX systems I can just use the grub commands that are hosted differently and have it recognize a new root and rebuild any such files and recognize where they’ve been moved to (I once had a problem like this caused by changing partition sizes).

Also, CCleaner has never marked anything for deletion on reboot to my knowledge. Otherwise when I rebooted before, the temporary files would have been deleted and I wouldn’t have had to search for the Answers for such a horribly long time. By the way in case I didn’t mention it in an earlier post, I switched to Ubuntu to delete those files and yes, Windows did rebuild them but, it they were no longer versions that were causing issues.

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I disagree, NTFS loves fdsfdsaf.fdsafdsafereafvsgh..gfjajlfjsdjglerjalg.fjeoajlfdjaoejdil

SShot-195.gif shows that DOS under XP in NTFS created a file using you stipulated file name which contained a time stamp.

I then aimed Windows explorer at C:Documents and SettingsDad## and saw the file

I then selected the file in Windows Explorer and told it to open with Notepad.exe, which it was able to do.
I see no evidence that NTFS has any problem with fdsfdsaf.fdsafdsafereafvsgh..gfjajlfjsdjglerjalg.fjeoajlfdjaoejdil

I disagree, CCleaner DOES Mark for Deletion files that cannot be deleted whilst Windows is running, see SShot-194

I believe CCleaner uses a facility built into Windows for when these things need deleting.

I now use the freeware Puran Defrag.
I like it because :-
It is free,
It is VERY small at only 3 MB
It is VERY fast – it only took 11 seconds to Analyse C: and show me 900 fragments, 90% of which were in Firefox profiles.
It has no problem working around files which Windows is holding IN USE and are unmoveable;
It has a Boot mode that moves the unmoveable.

Alan

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Another option is to use a WinPE boot disk with your favorite defrag tool. there are tons of bootable utility disks that do a fine defrag job too.

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In response to Alan98:

The file name I gave was a random example and not an actual file I worked with but, I have had issues before with files that have extremely long names and multiple periods in them. Chances are the files become corrupt over times because Windows doesn’t know how to deal with an extension of type .fdjlodfdskjl which obviously has no meaning whatsoever. It’s also possible that the problem’s I’ve noticed have to deal with the programs that create these files but, nonetheless I’ve ran into such issues on Win95, XP, Vista, and 7. (I didn’t get much chance to play with 2000)

As for the marking for deletion. Is this before clicking Run Cleaner. It says marked for deletion in that version before actually running the cleaner then as best I can tell it actually deletes the files (or tries to) when you click Run Cleaner. The problem I mentioned before would have otherwise been dealt with by CCleaner. As for my settings in CCleaner it’s currently version 2.36.1233 and under Applications I have everything but, Firefox Session marked, under Windows everything except: Thumbnail cache (previous selected but, I decided to turn it off since I’ve been watching more vids lately), Taskbar Jumplist, FTP Accounts (I shouldn’t have any anyways), Start Menu Shortcuts, Desktop Shortcuts, and wipe free space (I only use wipe free space if something was only partially deleted for one reason of another). Everything under Registry is checked, Secure delete (either 1 pass or Nod (3 passes), Don’t keep any cookies, Include the Trash-1000 folders on every drive (Ubuntu’s version of the recycling bin). I did just realize that I had it set to only delete Windows Temp files older than 24 hours which may explain why it didn’t touch those (in which case I apologize for that aspect). I also save everything to an .INI so I can keep my registry clean and more easily back up CCleaner’s settings.

Directed at both Alan98 and TheGadgetFixer:

Also, I believe I may have mentioned it before but, I don’t tend to trust defraggers to run before windows starts because of the risk of moving files windows looks for by physical location (It’s my understanding that when an OS boots from the hard drive it has a certain amount of data it has to load from physical addresses before it can search the hard drive the normal way). Also my Defragger uses the Windows API which makes me feel a bit safer about it. Basically it defrags the same way Windows does except it also optimizes data for quicker read speeds.

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In response to Alan98:

Chances are the files become corrupt over times because Windows doesn’t know how to deal with an extension of type .fdjlodfdskjl which obviously has no meaning whatsoever.

I think you are wrong.

I have already demonstrated that I (and also XP) have no difficulty deleting a file with the extension .fdjlodfdskjl
Life is too short to demonstrate any further errors in your understanding,
but although I agree with you that Windows by DEFAULT is totally ignorant of how to deal with many extensions, of which your .fdjlodfdskjl is an example,
I have always found that if I select such a file and right click the context menu will allow me to choose to Open With,
and it allows me to select varies possible options such as Notepad, and there is the choice to browse my system for anything else,
AND there is a a check-box which allows me to stipulate that Windows must remember this as part of its set of defaults,
in which case the next time this extension is clicked Windows WILL know how to deal with it.

As for the marking for deletion. Is this before clicking Run Cleaner. It says marked for deletion in that version before actually running the cleaner

Yes, exactly, this is the Analysis phase

then as best I can tell it actually deletes the files (or tries to) when you click Run Cleaner.

No, wrong.
It fails to remind you that it is marked for deletion. You have already been told (although it did not spell it out in precise detail) that it WILL be deleted.

If you analyze again it will refrain from commenting about the items already marked for deletion, no further cleaning action is needed.

Secure delete (either 1 pass or Nod (3 passes)

WARNING – I have seen two complaints where important files were lost and I believe Secure Deletion is implicated.

Some paths are the correct “native” routes to files.
Some paths are wrong but W7 etc accommodates via reparse points which intercept and redirect to the native route.
You can read a file by the native route, and also via the reparse point.
You may think you have multiple and different folders each containing independent copies of the same files,
but if you delete one you delete all the other copies you thought you had.

W7 etc. protect against an accidental deletion via a reparse point,
but Secure Deletion is NOT deletion but DESTRUCTION by overwriting, and you can write via a reparse point even though you cannot delete via it.

Directed at both Alan98 and TheGadgetFixer:

Also, I believe I may have mentioned it before but, I don’t tend to trust defraggers to run before windows starts because of the risk of moving files windows looks for by physical location (It’s my understanding that when an OS boots from the hard drive it has a certain amount of data it has to load from physical addresses before it can search the hard drive the normal way). Also my Defragger uses the Windows API which makes me feel a bit safer about it. Basically it defrags the same way Windows does except it also optimizes data for quicker read speeds.

My experience with Dual Boot via EasyBCD is that immediately after BIOS has finished, then EasyBCD and the Vista whatsit go to the first partition and use the file system to find the BOOT folder to present the menu that gives me choice of which O.S. I wish to run.
I am NOT aware that the chosen OS is expected to access a fixed track/sector.

My experience of Acronis is that it has options to capture an image of all bits within a partition or only the file clusters that are in use.
I only ever use the used cluster option.
My drive C: develops gaps when files are deleted.
If Acronis captures an image with lots a gaps, and lots of fragmented files,
Acronis can then restore that image and all the gaps are gone and all the files are free of fragments.
Acronis allows a free choice of whether I want to place the restored partition at the extreme edge of the Hard drive,
or whether to leave some spare tracks at the beginning,
AND STILL the image can boot – I have never seen evidence that Windows requires any particular item to boot up.
I guess one of us is wrong.

Perhaps you are confused with the MBR which is required for booting.
Acronis does allow the option to restore the MBR, but does NOT allow you to choose spare tracks in front of it.

I very much doubt that any defragger would relocate the MBR, and if it did then you are in a different world of hurt.

I am happy to continue with Puran and Boot defrag, and you are free to choose.

Most defraggers that I am aware of use the Windows API.

Alan

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Alan98 said

“WARNING – I have seen two complaints where important files were lost and I believe Secure Deletion is implicated.

Some paths are the correct “native” routes to files.
Some paths are wrong but W7 etc accommodates via reparse points which intercept and redirect to the native route.
You can read a file by the native route, and also via the reparse point.
You may think you have multiple and different folders each containing independent copies of the same files,
but if you delete one you delete all the other copies you thought you had.

W7 etc. protect against an accidental deletion via a reparse point,
but Secure Deletion is NOT deletion but DESTRUCTION by overwriting, and you can write via a reparse point even though you cannot delete via it.”

These reparse points are Windows version of Soft Links a linux convention (at least that’s my understanding). The difference is that in Windows a soft link smaller than a certain size if deleted will just delete the link but, larger than a certain size will delete the link and the files it’s linked too. I know this because I tried to find a way to use Soft Links in Windows and found it’s a hell of a lot harder than ls. Also both Windows and Linux use something called hard links.

In case you don’t know a Soft Link is a reference to a folder location: It’s much more like a regular Windows Shortcut but, the OS treats it like a regular folder so in Linux when I run uTorrent (via Wine) I have the profile folder Soft Linked to the Windows profile folder so it actually saves to the Windows profile folder for uTorrent. That of course means I can change settings in one OS and it will transfer to the other. I also do this with Tomboy Notes, since Windows can’t work with ext4 and Soft Links in Windows are a pain I just store the notes in the Windows folder for them (since the program itself can’t be configured to store them elsewhere) and I use a Soft Link in Ubuntu to redirect the Linux Tomboy Notes to the Windows one.

Hard Links work exactly the same functionally but, use the physical addresses instead. I’m not sure what the real advantage is but, I do know that both Windows and Linux have versions of this.

As otherwise with the secure deletion it’s just a matter of making sure you know what you’re doing. CCleaner is very conservative about it’s cleaning habits and won’t try to delete any information stored within a soft link or reparse point (or hard link of course) unless specifically told to do so. The extra folders I configured to be cleaned are Linuxes recycling bin and the cleaning is just like securely deleting files in the Windows Recycling bin, perfectly safe so long as there isn’t anything you wanted inside of it.

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CCleaner is very conservative about it’s cleaning habits and won’t try to delete any information stored within a soft link or reparse point

I agree but think you are wrong.
When it cleans what it believes is in need of cleaning, it knows the “real” paths to what needs cleaning and will not use the reparse point routes.
It does not need to refrain from cleaning reparse points because it goes direct to where the action is.

At least that is my hope.
I have less hope for the supplements which users submit for winapp2.ini supplements,
some may well go via reparse points and Vista/W7 will BLOCK any such deletion.

If a user adds his own special thing in the Include for Deletion section,
I doubt that CCleaner will nanny him and protect him from his own folly,
If he has stipulated something that (probably unknown to him) goes via a reparse point,
then CCleaner can happily allow the deletion to proceed because Vista/W7 protect the destination from deletion

Vista/W7 allows a file to be WRITTEN via a reparse point,
it allows it to be OVER-WRITTEN with a replacement file using the same name.
I am sure it would allow SECURE DELETION to over-write the original with junk and thus securely destroy its content,
but it will leave its destroyed file in the directory.

I raised my concerns on the CCleaner forum on 3rd September, and no one has yet told me that my fears are groundless.

I therefore believe that CCleaner will NOT delete anything designated by a reparse point because Vista/W7 will not let it happen,
but Secure Deletion is a whole new world of hurt and Vista/W7 has no protection against it.

If you RUN CMD.EXE you can issue these commands
echo %TIME% > “%USERPROFILE%Application Data”ALAN_LOST
DEL “%USERPROFILE%Application Data”ALAN_LOST
echo %TIME% >> “%USERPROFILE%Application Data”ALAN_LOST
TYPE “%USERPROFILE%Application Data”ALAN_LOST
TYPE “%APPDATA%”ALAN_LOST

You will observe that the file ALAN_LOST is NOT deleted by DEL
and to the first time stamp a second time stamp is appended after the failure to DEL
and you can see the contents via TYPE.
DEL “%USERPROFILE%Application Data”ALAN_LOST uses a reparse point and the DEL action is blocked by W7
DEL “%APPDATA%”ALAN_LOST will use the “real” path and will delete the file.

Please feel free to try CCleaner Secure Deletion upon “%USERPROFILE%Application Data”ALAN_LOST and report back.
I have not yet installed CCleaner on W7 to try for myself, but I have done all the above ALAN_LOST commands above,
and an awful lot more testing.besides, and at the moment I hate W7 – it takes 4 times longer than XP to boot up,
and it never does the things I want nor the way I want.
It allowed me to activate Windows Updates to Notify Only after which I intended to custom install and exclude updates I never ever want,
such as Silverlight and .NET 4.0 etc etc. – BUT SUDDENLY AS A RACE HORSE BIT IN THE TEETH IT GALLOPED TO COMPLETION.
The one thing that saved me from disaster was that .NET 4.0 failed to install – hooray.

Alan

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When it comes to W7 I actually like it more than XP overall. Of course, I’m using a dual core machine with 4 GB of RAM. My graphics card is sub-par (256MB Integrated) but, is good enough for W7. W7 takes about the same amount of time as XP did to do most anything and looks better doing it. The only real complaint I have is that when I tried to do a delayed shutdown last night via the command line it failed horribly (it required me to use /i to start up a GUI, then I had to manually add my computers name, then it shut down after 2 seconds instead of 7200 seconds like I specified with the /t parameter).

I don’t really want to take any chances running through reparse points since I know Windows is a bit picky about that stuff. It’s possible that CCleaner may at times have to run through reparse points because Windows won’t allow access to certain locations otherwise (such as AppData folders, you can’t actually access the real folder directly but, right next to it is a link that apparently gives full access to the files).

One thing I’m not sure on is whether a secure delete leaves the data as junk data or if after overwriting it a couple of times it overwrites it with 0’s.

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