What a hideous OS this is

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I was going to try dual booting 7 and 10 for while to get used to the bells and whistles. I asked about it in the Win 7 forum, the answers pretty soon convinced me that that was not the way to go. So I bought an HP Spectre. Nice machine, but I would not be able to express my opinion of the OS on this forum! I know there’s some pretty strong weed growing up there in the mountains, but had no idea that it could be this potent. Seems to me MS has deliberately, and gratuitously, changed every setting, and renamed every function, and rearranged every window and pop-up. To take just one example: for generations to unplug a USB drive you clicked on the little up-arrow on the far end of the task-bar. Now there’s no arrow, and no taskbar. I spent 20 minutes looking for some way to legally eject a thumb drive, didn’t find it, so I pulled it out, and the file I’d copied to it disappeared.

I’ve got a copy of XP somewhere, I reckon by now that would be a very safe OS, I mean hackers want money, but by definition people who are running XP don’t have any.

Anyone recommend a DIY Win 10 book because this Spectre is haunting me.

David

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ejb

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[Cybertooth]

Regarding your overall stance on Windows 10, you won’t get an argument from me! Since you’ve been on 7 and are unhappy with 10, you may want to look at the links in my signature line: one of them details how to stay on 7 in relative safety, while the other describes how to make 10 as much like 7 as possible.  🙂

But it’s puzzling that you don’t have a taskbar in your Windows 10, or an arrow that you can click on to reveal the Notification Area icons. Are you also lacking the Start menu at the bottom left of the screen? Maybe you can post a screenshot so that we can see what you’re seeing.

EDIT: Check out the solutions on this Webpage and see if they fix the taskbar problem. The post applies to Windows 7 but the methods should work similarly in 10.

Keep Running Windows 7 Safely for Years to Come  
Make Windows 10 look and work like Windows 7

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Cybertooth.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by Cybertooth.

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thokur, Lars220

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Settings App\Personalization\Taskbar
Uncheck “Automatically hide the taskbar.
Under “Select which icons appear on the taskbar” turn on “Safely remove hardware”

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Lars220, Cybertooth

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I suspect that the problem is not with Win10 but more with how HP configures Windows for the PCs they sell.  I build my own and do my own Windows installation.  The task bar always comes up just fine and I think it is the default install.

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I’ve bought a number of HPs and never had any problem with the task bar. I’ve just Googled for removing USB drives and top of the pile were instructions how to do it. Doesn’t File Explorer have the eject on right clicking  as default (I can’t remember)? It’s possible that the OP was in tablet mode if he couldn’t find the task bar.

Personally , I wouldn’t go back to Win 7 if you paid me.

Eliminate spare time: start programming PowerShell

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Thanks for that, PKCano.  It has been annoying me…

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Thank you PK Cano, I’ve got a Task Bar. And the Notification is there too. What I can see is the battery level (which I don’t need to see because it’s always plugged in); and the network icon (which I don’t need because it’s always connected); and the audio volume (which I don’t need because it’s adjustable from the keyboard). But still no sign of an eject USB device icon, no sign of Skype which apparently is running somewhere in the background. No sign of BlueTooth, Malwarebytes, CCleaner, Webroot which should be running somewhere, but maybe not.

And I have installed Classic Shell which you recommend Cybertooth, but it pops up a list of programs that can be run, each with an identical, generic folder icon. Hardly the same as having a readily identifiable icon. But clicking on the folder opens another list of actions, one of which is “Uninstall XXX”. Believe me my wife will go for that one every time, and in the subsequent confusion she’ll get it gone. “Well I don’t know… This list came up and all I did was….” Is there really no way of getting a blank desktop with icons, recognizable ones?

One last thing, and surely this must be easy, for everyone else. I’m writing this on another laptop, but every time I turn my back of the Spectre it goes into standby, and I have to log in again. Can I boot it up in the morning and leave it ON all day, or at least until I decide to put it to bed?

David

Ps. I’m going to be looking at your link to keep 7 running Cybertooth. I’m 84 and this thing is shortening my limited life expectancy daily.

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NetDef, analogkid, Lars220, Cybertooth

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In the one with the arrow, in mine “show all icons is off – turn it on and see what you get (turn off ones you don’t want). The one for Windows Explorer at the bottom turns on “remove hardware.” In the system tray, some are hidden by a ^ symbol – check there.

There is another link below – “Turn system icons on or off” – check out the settings there, turn off the ones you don’t want.

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With Classic Shell and its later version called Open Shell, there is a choice between 3 types of Start menu. In the Open-Shell folder in the Start menu select the “Open-Shell Menu Settings” option and you should see 3 options. I use the left option “Classic Style” which under Programs gives cascading menus to the right of the folder when you hover the mouse pointer over the folders similar to XP, but the right option “Windows 7 style” is presumably similar to what you are used to in W7?

Note: The original Classic Shell is no longer supported by its creator, so use Open-Shell which is supported and more likely to keep up to date with new versions of W10.

To make the Explorer windows look more like W7 try the program “Old New Explorer” which includes the option to replace the Ribbon at the top of the Explorer window with the classic Menu Bar you will know in W7. I think the new setting only becomes active after you close any open Explorer windows. (If the Menu Bar does not appear when you open an Explorer window, select the Organise drop-down, then Layout and make sure the Menu Bar tick box is ticked.)

To stop the PC switching off you probably need to go to ‘Control Panel > Power Options’ and select High Performance. You may need to select the ‘Change plan settings’ link on the right and change the (Display (maybe?) and) Sleep options to Never.

 

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Rhino wrote:

And I have installed Classic Shell which you recommend Cybertooth, but it pops up a list of programs that can be run, each with an identical, generic folder icon. Hardly the same as having a readily identifiable icon. But clicking on the folder opens another list of actions, one of which is “Uninstall XXX”.

@rhino, those identical icons, under which you get a selection of actions such as to uninstall, are the folders for a variety of programs and Windows features. The Windows 7 Start menu works the same way. And depending on how many programs you’ve installed on the computer, you may also have a list of individual programs with their own distinct icons above the list of identical icons. Here’s an example of how that looks in Classic Shell on Windows 10:

I’ve never been sure why some programs get an individual icon in the Start menu while others get a folder, but your Windows 7 Start menu should look and work much the same way.

 

Keep Running Windows 7 Safely for Years to Come  
Make Windows 10 look and work like Windows 7

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@Cybertooth wrote …

I’ve never been sure why some programs get an individual icon in the Start menu while others get a folder, but …

It simply depends on the programmer’s discretion of where to put the program’s start menu shortcut, either directly into the system’s (or user’s) “…\Start Menu\Programs” folder or within a new “program folder” within the “…\Start Menu\Programs” folder when the new program is first installed.

For program shortcuts to appear in the Windows start menus, during install the program shortcuts are normally put in one of two places, “%ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs” folder or “%USERPROFILE%\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs” folder.

System environment variable %ALLUSERSPROFILE% expands to “C:\ProgramData” and shortcuts placed in this path will appear in the start menu for all users on a multi-user system.

System environment variable %USERPROFILE% expands to “C:\Users\%USERNAME%” and shortcuts placed in this path will appear in the start menu for only the active administrative user (%USERNAME%) that first installed the program on a multi-user system.

System environment variable %USERNAME% expands to the currently active user’s “UserName”.

BTY, you can always go into either or both of these “…\Start Menu\Programs” folder(s) to add, move, rename or delete program shortcuts and/or their corresponding folders to your liking.

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KP, Cybertooth

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Here is the GitHub download page for Open Shell 4.4.142

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Seems to me that all the suggested work-arounds prove my point. I could get into a 1920’s car and drive it off the lot. If my father (who died in 1947) could have sat in a 2020 car he could have driven it off the lot. He had a background in engineering, could dismantle and re-build anything mechanical, but if he could look under the hood of a 2020 car he would not recognize anything. So how come he could drive it? Because the ‘front end’, steering, accelerator and brakes are exactly what he’d expect. Windows is—or was—a ‘front end’, prettier and more easier to use than DOS. But now it is an ‘operating system’, a comprehensive, all subsuming, mega program. If a camel is an animal designed by a committee, Windows is an accretion of bits and pieces assembled by numerous committees each with an agenda. How many times does the appearance of the Desktop have to be changed? Perhaps if they’d spent less time redesigning appearances they’d have more time to get the updates working without the monthly ‘Will I, won’t I, update?Or should I leave it until some other sucker has taken the fall.’

Answer this; would you fly in an aircraft built by Microsoft? I was a commercial pilot for 35 years, DC 3 to 747, I would not set foot in that aircraft, not even on the ramp with the parking brake set.

“A man who has two strings to his bow may shoot strong, but seldom straight.”                Queen Elizabeth 1st of England.

But thank you all for your inputs. I will now switch from Classic Shell to Open Shell, and maybe all will be well.

David

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ejb, LH, wavy, doriel, NetDef, analogkid

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I would have a hard time driving a 1920’s car without some difficulty. Model T Fords had three pedals, two of which operated the gear shift and one the brake. The throttle is on the steering wheel. There is no clutch pedal. Try it. Even my motorcycle is easier.☺

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Rhino wrote:

would you fly in an aircraft built by Microsoft?

Yes, because it has to follow very specific rules and testing.
Windows, however, is MS’s own and they can change it any way they like. 10 is just different, like a new phone 6 years later, and you have to get used to the change.

cheers, Paul

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David/Rhino

I just updated to the latest Open-Shell from PKCano’s link above and I found that I needed to restart the PC after installation for it to work properly, so if things look odd after just installing try restarting your PC 🙂

BTW: I share your frustrations with the “hideous” W10, but if you have bought a PC with it you either have to live with it (Paul T’s suggestion), fine-tune it more to your liking (mine and others’s suggestions) or take it back and try to get a refund. Paul T is correct, Microsoft have long since abandoned the 1st rule of retail i.e. “the customer is always right” 🙂

The anonymous from #2258737 above.

 

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Charlie, Cybertooth

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anonymous wrote:

BTW: I share your frustrations with the “hideous” W10, but if you have bought a PC with it you either have to live with it (Paul T’s suggestion), fine-tune it more to your liking (mine and others’s suggestions) or take it back and try to get a refund.

There’s a fourth option that won’t work for everyone, and that’s to install Linux.  I have three laptops now that came with Windows 10 (I don’t buy desktops prebuilt, so they never come with an OS), all three of which run Linux now.  I’m using the newest one, my Dell G3, to write this, from KDE Neon Linux (User edition).

It’s kind of ironic that I used Windows as my main/sole OS for 25 years, but after I made the switch to Linux, I bought more PCs with Windows (that I intended to remove from the time I placed the orders!) in a shorter time than I ever had before.  Yes, I paid the MS tax for machines that were destined to end up running Linux, but it may not have been a cost at all, as the subsidy paid by bloatware vendors probably offsets the Microsoft tax completely.  PCs that have Linux preinstalled are relatively few and far between, and there’s a lot more competition in the Windows sector, so if anything, they would probably cost more.

I like the idea of supporting Linux-supporting PC vendors and denying MS one more license fee, but more than that, I want to be able to pick and choose my hardware and to get it for a good price, which is why I like the PC platform in the first place.  It wouldn’t even save me time to buy a PC with preinstalled Linux, as I would almost certainly have to wipe it and start over to get my preferred distro, configuration, etc., instead of whatever it came with.

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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Bill C., Charlie, Cybertooth

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Ascaris wrote:

There’s a fourth option that won’t work for everyone, and that’s to install Linux.

When installing Linux on a PC with pre-installed Windows 10 you can get $50 back from Microsoft.
Or, buy a PC with no OS.

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Ascaris

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Alex5723 wrote:

When installing Linux on a PC with pre-installed Windows 10 you can get $50 back from Microsoft. Or, buy a PC with no OS.

I’ve never heard of this, and a search turned up nothing from Microsoft itself.  The idea that one can, if they do not agree to the terms of the EULA, return the software to the retailer, is stated in many software EULAs, but retailers typically will not accept returns on opened software, regardless of what the EULA says.

MS has, in the past, claimed that they should be entitled to licensing fees on all PCs, including those that are sold without Windows, because “everyone knows” they’re going to be running Windows anyway, just in pirated form.  Early licensing deals for MS operating systems were based on an OEM’s total PC sales, whether or not these PCs actually came with Microsoft software or not.  Refunding the license fee doesn’t seem like their “style.”

I did, though, find a Wikipedia article that mentioned that some OEMs that bundle Windows with PCs offer refunds under certain conditions.  I’d be more than happy to have my Windows 10 licenses cancelled/deactivated for $50 each. I only keep Windows on there (in a partition that’s too small to be of any practical use) because it’s already paid for, and I consider it better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.  I’d wipe it and reclaim the space for 5 bucks, let alone $50 (but don’t tell them that!).

All of my laptops that had 10 on them are now out of warranty, so it seems a little too late to ask for that, but I certainly would have if I had known it was possible at the time.  I had not even considered the possibility.

I bought each of my recent laptops on sale from a mass-market retailer, though at different times.  The G3 I am using now, for example, was a Black Friday deal in 2018. The retailer didn’t have a no-OS version… I’d have to order that directly from Dell, and a custom built model would probably not be subject to such a sale, and would cost a lot more (and likely not be returnable at no additional cost if Linux didn’t work to my satisfaction).

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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The only way I’ve seen that occur is if you were able to buy a machine without a OS, not after the fact.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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doriel

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Thanks for all the inputs, enough to keep me occupied during these troubled times. As for returning the laptop, can’t do it! Yes, that surprised me too.

When I ordered it I specified a 250Gb drive instead of 128, delivery was 7-10 business days. And then the real-life virus struck and the delivery date started slipping; not too surprising, After a month I looked again at the order Web page, the machine wasn’t going to be “built” for another 3 weeks, delivery in 2 months.  Enough I thought, “Free Return for up to 30 days was writ large on the HP order. I decided to save them the return cost and cancel before it was sent. Couldn’t do it on-line so I phoned, on hold for about an hour, then the agent came on the line. He told me that the order could not be cancelled because it was a custom design being built “for me”. I pointed out that the only thing that was custom about it was the drive, and all drives are the same size physically, so it was just a matter of screwing the right one into the motherboard. He tried to convince that there was a whole lot more to it than that, but in the end he was reduced to pointing out that way over on the left side of the order page, nowhere near where a customer would be filling out name, address, card numbers etc, there was a small note in 5 or 6 point text: “Some items may not be returnable.” Some items? There was only 1 item. If it had said “THIS item cannot be cancelled or returned” I would not have gone ahead. I pointed out that HP hadn’t even started putting together. I could hear his  thoughts, ‘One of those *****!!!!’ He did agree to see what could be done, never heard another word from HP. But life is too short to waste hours—days—over the price of a laptop, besides, if I can’t get it work the way I want it to it’ll make a very attractive paper-weight.

I’m going to work my way through the suggested fixes, but maybe Linux is a step too far.

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That’s discouraging, Rhino. Return policy shouldn’t even matter if the unit isn’t actually being returned.  It’s a lot easier to just not ship it in the first place. The policies should be made very clear on each item before the purchase is made… to suggest you have 30 days and to have a “look in the fine print” moment when you try to use it is not likely to give the warm fuzzy feelings that would have you coming back for another PC later.

It’s because of things like that that I prefer to buy off-the-shelf from places that have good return policies.  When I bought my G3 for Black Friday (late November, for non-Americans) 2018, I had until January to return it for a full refund (as it could have been a Christmas gift for someone).  Of course, I didn’t need that, as I kept it, but I wanted to have that option in case Linux didn’t work well on it.  I had taken a disk image of Windows 10 before I did anything, so I could easily return it to its factory condition if I decided to return it.

Linux isn’t for everyone, but it’s a lot better than declaring a new laptop to be a doorstop.  If you find you can’t adapt 10 to your liking, it’s worth a try!

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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You brought up another very good reason why I won’t swap nickels with HP. I stick with Dell and have had very good results. In fact, must of my PCs have been refurbished Dells. I can update them as I see fit and do it myself.

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[OscarCP]

Rhino: “if I can’t get it work the way I want it to it’ll make a very attractive paper-weight. I’m going to work my way through the suggested fixes, but maybe Linux is a step too far.”

Actually, these days Linux should not be a step too far for most people, tech savvy or not. It takes some getting used to it, but no more and probably less than has taken you trying to go from Windows 7 to Windows 10 — and ending up completely unhappy about the whole thing.

Writing from experience, Ubuntu and its various forks, Mint in my case, are not an OS too far for most people — it has an old reputation, true years ago but not now, that still puts people off — particularly if all you need to use is the GUI (the Desktop graphical interface where one points and click) and very occasionally the command line following the explicit instructions you can usually find online, or by asking here at AskWoody. The one problem with Linux, even then, would be if you absolutely need to use some application that has no Linux-compatible version or no Linux satisfactory equivalent.

In such a case, in your place, I would get a knowledgeable friend (if I did not feel up to it myself) to install, on my new and presently useless PC, Linux in dual boot with Windows 7 (if I still had the installation key and 7 could take care of those applications), or with Win 10 (in case I could, eventually, get it to do something useful to me, besides using those applications), on the new PC, so I could work with both, Windows and Linux, as needed. Doing this, you are not likely to end up any worse off than you are right now, if I understood you correctly. And you would still have your fancy doorstop to try something else on it, some other time.

Good luck, whatever you do.

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

• This reply was modified 4 years, 10 months ago by OscarCP.

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Elrod

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The one and only thing I have never found a Linux equivalent for is iTunes.  And Apple is gradually making iTunes irrelevant anyway.

I even found Linux drivers for my Canon color laser printer, believe it or not.

 

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You may want to back it up and then do a complete rebuild and remove what HP has done to the machine.  In my firm we still end up with icons all over the desktop so I honestly don’t find it that hugely different than Windows 7.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Barry

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Agreed, Susan. My experience on upgrading my first home desktop from Win7 to Win10 was genuine surprise at how little difference there was, and by and large the differences were improvements once I’d got used to them. I should stress that this is as default and without running Classic Shell or anything else. There’s no doubt that Win10 is almost infinitely customisable and I’m sure @Rhino’s problems are based on the default pre-installation customisation and are all capable of being worked through.

When buying a machine new with the OS pre-installed it’s a complete lottery how it will be configured, whereas MS do seem (in my limited sample size of one!) to have done a good job when upgrading an existing OS in matching the new configuration to the old.

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Ascaris wrote:

I’ve never heard of this, and a search turned up nothing from Microsoft itself.  The idea that one can, if they do not agree to the terms of the EULA, return the software to the retailer, is stated in many software EULAs, but retailers typically will not accept returns on opened software, regardless of what the EULA says.

The Windows tax fight is finally over: Buyers can get a refund on their Microsoft OS in Italy
A long-running court case over consumers’ right to get a refund on unwanted OS has finally been settled.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-windows-tax-fight-is-finally-over-buyers-can-get-a-refund-on-their-microsoft-os-in-italy/

Not only is Italy.

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It seemed to me that Windows 10 is Microsoft’s move to touch screen compatibility.   So it works like 1/2 Desktop and 1/2 iPad.  They accomplished it, but it takes some tweaking to work like Win 7.

I was a “Never 10” person for years, until installing on my laptop 6 months ago.  Of course, I had a separate Win 7 drive just in case.  After a few tweaks. i’m happy with it.  Runs smooth and fast with the SSD and no crashes.  So far, so good.

Richard

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though remember folks the recent Windows 10 versions now are different than the Win10 versions in past years.

Ed Bott of ZDNet wrote this article in early May – “Windows 10 at five: Don’t get too comfortable, the rules will change again”
https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-five-years-later-almost-nothing-turned-out-as-planned-and-thats-ok/

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@Rhino – I get it! I understand your frustrations.

I do love this discussion though, and I’m glad you posted this.

I had an interesting situation a couple of years ago: when a Windows 10 update erased about half of my device drivers on an older system (including some really important ones like the SATA controller) and the OS wouldn’t allow me to manually install the correct drivers, I ended up pushing Windows 7 back onto the machine and having to use it again after some time away.

Boy, what a difference it did and didn’t make!  I loved me some Windows 7 back in the day, but just like Windows 10, I realized it’s still always going to be a love/hate relationship. On the one hand, technologies like SSD and Bluetooth weren’t quite ‘ready for prime time’ when Windows 7 first rolled out, and it shows.  But then on the other hand…well, I used to joke that Windows 10 was like using Windows 7, just having to learn how many more clicks it takes to get you drilled down into the Windows 7 tools you’re used to working with.  The new way to manage system-level things like networks seems to get more buried beneath annoying ‘Modern UI’ style buttons and switches.

With that Windows 7 machine, I ultimately realized I just needed to scrap it. I’d rolled myself back to the various Windows 7 instabilities and quirks on that machine that were what drove me to Win 10 in the first place, and Microsoft made it clear that I wouldn’t be able to just hang on the last known good Win 10 build (unless I’m okay with a format/reinstall every 6 months followed by disabling Updates at a low level).

If I could wave a magical Microsoft wand, I’d get the kids at Redmond to put all those cute new features on hold, like ‘My phone’ and a bonkers Start Menu that’s slowly creeping back into Windows 8-ish territory, and just stabilize and bug-fix…and repair whatever’s gone wrong in their release testing process that’s caused crummy builds to go out to the masses and break things.

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