We have a real out-of-band update now, but very little information – and what appear to be a LOT of bugs.

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I’m still sitting on a fence. I’m moving to MS-DEFCON 1 temporarily, until we have a better understanding of what’s going on. But be prepared to get y
[See the full post at: We have a real out-of-band update now, but very little information – and what appear to be a LOT of bugs.]

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Pierre77, Lori, GoneToPlaid, abbodi86, LHiggins, SueW, dononline, lurks about, Iain, Seff, MWmC, Demeter, fernlady, jburk07, Pim, GreatAndPowerfulTech

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So when you went to DEFCON 3 the other day I checked what MS was offering me for Sept. –  KB4514602, KB4516065, & KB4474419. Thought I would hold off for a couple of days before installing & didn’t do anything. Now what? Stand down? Win 7 Pro, x 64, SP1 Intel, i7core, HP ZBook

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Yes. Stand down.

There aren’t any important fixes in the original September bunch of patches. You can afford to wait on them.

If you have them installed, there’s no reason to uninstall them.

If you have the second or third or fourth Win10 September cumulative updates installed, you may be experiencing printing problems. If so, give us the details here. But if you don’t have them installed, don’t worry. We still haven’t seen any exploits related to CVE-2019-1367 – or any details about the security hole.

Over on the Win7/8.1 side of the fence, there’s a very similar story. If you haven’t yet installed the first September Monthly Rollup, there’s nothing particularly important in it, so hold off. Unless you’re particularly paranoid about the CVE-2019-1367 security hole (which Microsoft has been fumbling for more than ten days), don’t install the second September Monthly Rollup.

I hate to put the brakes on something like this, but… Microsoft, you know?

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I am in Group B still for Windows 7. I installed September updates on 09/18/2019. The last two times I have installed security only updates (listed at https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/2000003-ongoing-list-of-group-b-monthly-updates-for-win7-and-8-1/) and when rebooting the computer after updates, it immediately goes through the Windows recovery mode saying it cannot load Windows.

After the process finishes, it still says it cannot be fixed.  But, if I exit out of the recovey mode before it finishes, Windows loads fine.

Note that I don’t have the issue rebooting the computer…it only happens when installing Windows updates.

My question is, can I un-install the September updates?  Is there a change the update did to my computer that cannot be reversed?  Or, is there something else I can look at to fix this issue?

I fear getting the blue screen or recovery mode and it totally failing.  I know I have to get Windows 10 comptuter in the next few months, but I am not ready to do that yet (financially).

Thank you for any guidance.

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If you can boot to Windows and it works then leave it alone – apart from taking a backup. (Did you take one before the updates?)

cheers, Paul

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I haven’t been with this brilliant site as long as I should have been (only learned about it earlier this year, I think), but I’m pretty sure this is the first “DEFCON-1” I’ve seen.

I have already applied the most recent Office patches and went ahead and updated yesterday and very early this morning (couldn’t sleep) after my daily 02:00 backup to Acronis Cloud.

So far everything seems to be functioning as it should. I’m working three virtual desktops running a variety of web (Firefox) and communication tasks (Office 365 Online, Slack, WhatsApp client for Windows) and have a Jupyter Notebook running with some Python stuff I’m trying out. My Norton 360 and ProtonVPN are functioning normally. No observable glitches yet.

If something drastic happens, I’ll alert the forum with specifics.

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So, which version of Windows are you referring to? And what Windows updates did you install?

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Sorry. I should have that in a sticky note to be able to copy and paste in these posts. Windows 10 Pro 1903, and the three updates have been KB4524147 [4 Oct install], KB4517211 [2 Oct], and KB4522738 [2 Oct]. These all show under “Quality” updates. I have had no other updates in “Quality” or “Driver” since 12 Sep, and no “Other” updates since 14 Aug required by Microsoft.

My Office products are all on version 1909 [Office 365 Pro Plus subscription, Visio Online Plan 2 sub, Project Online Desktop Client sub — I’ve never understood the naming of these plans], meaning I have applied all Office patches automatically updated by Office on 4 Oct.

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PKCano

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I have seen AskWoody at MS DEFCON 1 before. It takes a lot to push Woody over to that end of the spectrum, so folks should take very seriously the recommendation to hold off on patching for awhile.

-- rc primak

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Reporting in: W10 Pro 1809 x64, just got KB 4524148 17763.775 this morning (before I saw the article). I just fired up my HP Deskjet Pro 8100 and printed a .pdf with no problems.

Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does 🙂
All W10 Pro at 22H2,(2 Desktops, 1 Laptop).

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jburk07

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So far I have 3 computers (all W10 Pro 1809 x64, 2 desktops and an HP laptop) that still print after KB 4524148. There are 2 printers, HP Deskjet Pro 8100 and an 8600 AIO that print.

Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does 🙂
All W10 Pro at 22H2,(2 Desktops, 1 Laptop).

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woody

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W 10 Home 1809. KB 4524148 attempted to install but failed at 96%. It kndly told me it couldn’t complete the update and obligingly (unprompted by me) uninstalled and reset the laptop to the previous configuration.

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My Epson XP410 works perfectly well after the Sept. Updates. I didn’t take any optional updates and didn’t go to the Updates Catalog. Win 10 Pro 1809 on a core-i5 Intel NUC. I use Chrome but took any IE 11 and Edge updates offered through MS Update. Updates applied AM of Fri., Oct. 4, 2019, in USA Eastern Time Zone. No other major issues.

-- rc primak

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[Seff]

Is a total hold recommended on the original September updates? I have in mind the .net framework and Office 2010 updates, should I get them installed and out of the way or sit tight? I’m clearly holding off on KB4524157 which has replaced the monthly rollup KB4516065 (and KB4474419 which has disappeared altogether, as indeed did the MSRT this month) but what about the others? Windows 7 x64.

Thanks so much Woody (and the team together with all the information sources) for keeping us on track with all this.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by Seff.

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MS DEFCON 1 means to stop ALL patching for now.

-- rc primak

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? says;

thank you for the sanity at Askwoody! i posted to comments on AKB2000003 a couple of times over the last two days, but i can’t get past the spinning captcha…

anyway i’ve updated KB4474719 SHA-2 to v3 and installed KB4516046  September IE patch and no MSRT for September. was not going to install September SO (unwanted\unneeded telemetry).

The Disk cleanup removed KB4474719-v2 (66.0MB) just as it removed v1 after installing patches last month.

again, thank you for being here to be a reliable and trustworth source of truth in window’s whatever they are doing…

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jburk07

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I bravely decided to install the 2019-10-02 ie11-windows6.1-kb4524135-x64 update for IE on two of my Win7 Group B computers this morning. So far no issues. Note that my printers are network printers. I am not having any issues opening documents in LibreOffice.

Since I am on Group B, I hid the October 3, 2019—KB4524157 (Monthly Rollup) which Microsoft says is a “required security update”. Given that CVE-2019-1367, which is a Scripting Engine Memory Corruption Vulnerability in IE and is addressed by installing KB4524135, I think that I am now protected against this type of attack.

I am not suggesting that anyone else should install any updates while we are at defcon 1.

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More info, this time from the Patchmanagement.org mailing list:

We’ve deployed it to a few users that had the printing issue.  The Jscript.dll issue seems to be resolved, but they’re still running into issues with msvcrt.dll.  According to the file change info from Microsoft, they updated Jscript.dll, but not msvcrt.dll.  Sigh

I have a client that called me today with printing issues AFTER the patch was applied.  They are unable to print to Kyocera printers installed locally using XPS drives.  Uninstalled the patch and it printed again.

p.s. And why, for Windows 10 1903….. does Cumulative Update KB4524147(October 3 dated, 18362.388) state the latest SSU is KB4515383(Sept 10, 2019) when the latest SSU is KB4520390(Sept 24, 2019) as noted in the last cumulative update(KB4517211, Sept 26, 2019, 18362.387)

Redmond, we have a problem.

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MOG this is one heck of a September bobbling on into the first part of an October unwelcome surprise.

I did not touch any of September’s W7 “Security Only” with a barge pole and decided to wait until October’s IE cumulative  update passes DEFCON3 muster before even using IE11 at all. but that’s some serious levels of QA/QC incompetence on the part of Redmond and hopefully that will be less so for the remainder  of October and the KB’s actually issued for October’s patch Tuesday.

I’m not very inclined to even want to install any KBs each month if the patching QA/QC issues becomes any more endemic. I’ll be waiting to see if October’s Security Only  Windows 7 KB is in fact Security Only, and I will avoid October’s SO patch if there is any Telemetry. As for IE I’ll probably will not skip 2 months in a row there what with that Zero Day issue and Firefox is really been my main browser for about 6 months now anyways.

MS’s CEO is pulling out of the PC/Laptop OS market to an even greater degree what with the cutbacks in QA/QC and staffing and I really wish that MS’s BOD would consider breaking off a consumer OS division and HP style let Nadella have only the Enterprise/Cloud  segment directly under his control. This is not going to end up well for MS if they can not fix their QA/QC issues ASAP.

 

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Just curious. Did you also skip the July Security only Windows 7 update?

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I just finished imaging and backing up the data on our three Win7 PCs here at home and was about to proceed with installing the September updates. Sure glad I decided to check-in here one last time before going ahead. Sheesh.

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As you quoted @Cogx in your Computerworld article:

But, now they have really gone and done it, breaking printing is like the number one cardinal sin where I work.  Printing is all anyone cares about.

When I was in IT, whether they were chain printers connected to mainframes, dot-matrix, or laser, if the printer was broke, everyone went bananas. Programmers needing program listings and/or dumps, data control analysts needing production reports & especially special forms like checks… if a printer wasn’t working, Nobody was happy! As a Customer Service Rep in the last 5-10 years, taking orders, answering questions or tracking problems over the phone needs less & less data in hard copy form. But when (not if) you do, that printer better work. & if the paperless office finally materializes, the Cloud/Network better stay online 24/7 & be secure! Or Else…

Bought a refurbished Windows 10 64-bit, currently updated to 22H2. Have broke the AC adapter cord going to the 8.1 machine, but before that, coaxed it into charging. Need to buy new adapter if wish to continue using it.
Wild Bill Rides Again...

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[Don]

My one desktop lost printing with KB4517211. Now my other desktop machine installed KB4524147 (I didn’t ask for it) and it can’t print either. These are both Windows 10 Version 1903 and the printer is an HP OfficeJet Pro 8740 on a wired network. I haven’t turned on my v1903 laptop to keep it safe. Can I expect this foulup to be corrected in Tuesday’s patches?

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by Don.

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jburk07, woody

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Are people actually still using IE?

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Many Windows programs make calls to components of Internet Explorer. IE is integral to the Windows Desktop Environment. Some IE windows don’t look like the IE web browser, but they are IE windows nonetheless. This is particularly true of third party programs when they are doing their updates. So even if you don’t use the IE web browser, chances are something on your system does reference its components.

-- rc primak

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Razz

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Having not used IE as a browser for at least 4 years and read this (only) today https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/july-2019-patch-tuesday-has-arrived/#post-1874412, I decided to turn it off in Programs and features.

I had a sneaking suspicion a post like yours would show up…  …I await the fallout… … but I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it …no panic.

Given the latest WU events I decided to review my backup integrity and system repair disks etc and downloaded WD Dashboard…which of course pulls .NET and now the latest rollup for .NET Security and Quality has shown up.  But it will have to wait.

The WD dashboard 2.5.1.0 does not work (see the SSD) which judging by community forums is a historically common occurence for many versions. The installer places the program files in the Program Files (x86) on 64 bit system rather than in Program Files – Is that correct? SanDisk dashboard community forum history is the same. I wonder is there an alternative  way of checking the health/life remaining on a SSD?

______________________________________________________________

Win 7 Home Premium SP1 64bit Acer E1-572; HP J4680.

ASUS GL702VS 24GB RAM Intel Core i7 64 bit Win 10 Home 22H2 OS Build 19045.3693
Windows Feature Experience Pack 1000.19053.1000.0
Not Win 11 eligible.

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I think that this was a good decision since MS has specifically mentioned that additional updates will be out on October 8.

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rc primak

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Well, it seems I have “fallen between two stools (Defcon3 and Defcon 1) and come to the ground.”

Not that anything seems (yet) to be out-and-out malfunctioning, but as we all know, “Time Will Tell.”

Summary: Seeing Defcon 3 flashed on, I said, “Darn this cold bug, in go the patches, I don’t know when’s the next time I’ll feel this good,” and started. I checked WU, and was offered as “Important-Checked”:

KB4514602 (Security and Quality rollup for .Net Everything)

KB4511546 (Update for .NET 4.7), I think not seen on Susan’s latest Patch List or anywhere else at all)

KB4524157 (Security Update, also I think not on Susan’s list)

It was probably the cold medicine talking, but a voice said, “Oh, botheration! Life’s too short; Back everything up, do restore points and let the buffalo chips fall where they may!” (Image: Slim Pickins riding the bomb down)

After doing so I was offered KB451665 “Servicing Stack Update”, (I could have sworn this was installed last month, though), and seeing that was “go” I installed that, too.

Rebooted several times, kept checking WU, and it says I’m up to speed. Have not seen any issues with printer or anything else.

Yet.

Hope I didn’t “foul the prop” with KB4511546 or KB4524157…like I said, I got caught between Defcon 3 and the pullback to Defcon 1. <sigh>

…and KB4511546…what’s up with THAT?

Win7 Pro SP1 64-bit, Dell Latitude E6330, Intel CORE i5 "Ivy Bridge", 12GB RAM, Group "0Patch", Multiple Air-Gapped backup drives in different locations. Linux Mint Greenhorn
--
"The more kinks you put in the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the pipes." -Scotty

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jburk07

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Nibbled To Death By Ducks wrote:

I got caught between Defcon 3 and the pullback to Defcon 1.

Defcon 3 was for September patches. Defcon 1 is for out-of-band October patches.

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That is not correct. DEFCON-1 is for the September patches as well.
Please see post #1975252.

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rc primak

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That’s how I read it too. I got my Sept. patches just ahead of Woody’s DEFCON 3 moment.

-- rc primak

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I can see where the confusion is: Blog post title
MS-DEFCON 3: Get your September patches installed — but stick to the mainstream patches (my bolding)
which excluded the IE zero day out-of-band patch as described within the blog post.

Lots of people will tell you that you need to install strange (very strange!) patches to protect yourself from the “Exploited: Yes” zero day patch for CVE-2019-1367. I say meh. Stick to this month’s normally distributed patches and you’ll be OK.

my bolding

This was posted the day before MS dumped more out-of-band patches in the catalog and  WU

Now we are at MS-Defcon 1 as September SMQR patches have now been superseded on WU to October( 2nd/3rd and even 4th out-of-band patches)

OSes or update methods cannot be segregated using the MS-DEFCON system. It’s been well thought out.

Woody has to encompass all within the MS-DEFCON rating otherwise there will be an even bigger mess than there already is.

If debian is good enough for NASA...

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rc primak

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As a Windows Home (I know) user I followed Woody’s “go ahead and install” instructions for our two 1803 machines yesterday.  The only current 1803 update available was the  KB4524149. Installed fine. No problems yet.

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jburk07

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Am I reading the most likely value (statistically speaking) of the diversity of advice offered here correctly, and the problem is just with the September IE11 cumulative update? The initial one, or the fix to that fix, or to that fix’s fix, or all of them?

And what about the September Security Only patch?

And is there yet another (September) SHA-2 Service Stack to be installed?

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

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Charlie

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[The Surfing Pensioner]

I have played safe, and installed only kb4474419 (SHA-2 code signing support), kb4514602 (.NET rollup), kb4516655 (Servicing Stack) and the Office patches. That’s all I wanted, really. No problems so far. Needless to say, I hid both the monthly rollups to get the servicing stack – I always hide the monthly rollup anyway.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by The Surfing Pensioner.
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Looks like a plan, TSP. With this proviso: I would leave the IE11 patch for next month, when there will be a new cumulative update for it and so, included in there, the September patches duly fixed, or so is to be hoped. I am particular about having IE11 patched, whenever it is safe to do so, because, regardless of one using it or not (and I don’t, anymore), a number of its components are also used by portions of the Windows 7 OS. So a vulnerability in IE11 could (not necessarily, but just might) make the whole System vulnerable to failure and malware infection.

But, since there is no real and present danger giving us a compelling motive to patch right away (and DEFCON is again at one, for a reason), I’ll let it be, until the October patch comes out for IE11 and has been duly tested by others (painfully, I’d hope not).

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

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rc primak

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Win7 SP1, installed kb4516655, 4474419, and 4516065 on 10/3 and have no known issues so far. Everything I use which is limited by this old lady (OpenOffice, RootsMagic, Adobe Acrobat Reader DC. Chrome browser, Gmail, and Epson WF 2520 printer all) working normally. Thanks so much everyone for this awesome group!

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jburk07

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Sure. I only went ahead and did it because Woody (briefly) moved us to Defcon 3, and I don’t waste time.

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jburk07, rc primak

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Reporting my patching experience.  1 laptop Win 7  x64 and 1 desktop Win 7 x64.  I always update my laptop first to see if any problems arise.

On Oct 3, after Defcon went to 3, I updated my laptop.
KB4474419, reboot;
KB4516065, reboot;
KB4514602, reboot.
Then KB4516655 showed up.
KB4516655, reboot.

No problems.

Had planned to update the desktop on Saturday, Oct 5.  This morning, Oct 4, as I do every morning while eating breakfast before going to work I came here to see the latest and read one poster’s comment that his September patches had disappeared and were replaced with KB4524157.  So I looked and sure enough so were mine.  He said he hid KB4524157 and the September patches re-appeared.

So I hid KB4524157 and my September patches re-appeared.  I then patched my desktop in the same sequence as the laptop.

KB4474419, reboot;
KB4516065, reboot;
KB4514602, reboot.
Then KB4516655 showed up.
KB4516655, reboot.
Un-hid KB4524157.

No problems.  Posting this from desktop.

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jburk07, OscarCP

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Win10 Pro 1809 here.

I had a fresh Macrium image yesterday, so I figured, what the heck? Then I bravely got caught up on ALL of the September updates for Win10 1809 x64, including the latest Oct 3 release of KB4524148.

Now I’m running “Version 1809 (OS Build 17763.775)”.

Reference here: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4524148

I just tested my printer, an HP LaserJet MFP over WiFi, and it printed a PDF perfectly!

KB4524148

IMPORTANT This is a required security update that expands the out-of-band update dated September 23, 2019. This security update includes the Internet Explorer scripting engine security vulnerability (CVE-2019-1367) mitigation and corrects a recent printing issue some users have experienced. Customers using Windows Update or Windows Server Update Services (WSUS) will be offered this update automatically. To help secure your devices, we recommend that you install this update as soon as a possible and restart your PC to fully apply the mitigations. Like all cumulative updates, this update supersedes any preceding update.
Note: This update does not replace the upcoming October 2019 monthly update, which is scheduled to release on October 8, 2019.

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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rc primak, Microfix, jburk07

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[E Pericoloso Sporgersi]

Have you patched? Intentionally?
Yes and yes.

Let us know what happened.
Here you go:

Restored on 2 Oct 2019:
Windows 10 Home x64 version 1903 (restored from image of 12 August 2019)

Installed on 2 Oct 2019:
– KB4515384
– KB4514359
– KB4516115
Installed on 3 Oct 2019:
– KB4522738
– KB4524147

No issues at all, up to now.

Moderator Note: Edited to remove HTML. Please view post in the TEXT Tab before posting and remove unnecessary HTML.

So back to behaving like a vanilla computer. 

1 Desktop Win 11
1 Laptop Win 10
Both tweaked to look, behave and feel like Windows 95
(except for the marine blue desktop, rgb(0, 3, 98)

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My 2 cents: if you were caught between DEFCON 3 and DEFCON 1 while updating and everything looks good, keep calm. Don’t blame yourself. Have a nice cup of tea, don’t touch anything and keep fingers crossed: you might be just fine (reporting: I’ve been beta testing some of these latest “out-of-band” updates on a few VM/live Win7/8.1/10(1803) systems and they don’t look terrible… hope is not lost… had no observable, relevant issues so far. However, I noticed that the Windows 10 (1803) out-of-band KB4524149 rollup hanged on the first installation attempt: had to cancel the installation, reboot the machine and then at the second attempt it installed fine, flawlessly. Printing is okay).

But if you haven’t installed any of these recent IE/Windows “out-of-date” cumulative/rollup updates yet: we’re at DEFCON 1, best advice right now is to <u>wait</u>.

It might be worth pointing out that both these “out-of-band” updates include updated libraries (jscript.dll, ieframe.dll…) that have been historically related with frequent issues (often arising from unexpected conflicts with third-party applications that, essentially, rely on the IE engine for rendering web content).

Woody and the pros are overwhelmed with people posting and reporting bugs and issues, gathering information from multiple sources and trying to figure all this out and sort things up. Patch Tuesday is just around the corner and… the “awkward” CVE-2019-1367 security hole seems to be just the latest entry of a lengthy list of scripting-related vulnerabilities in the IE libraries that have been repeatedly updated, patched and fixed (and causing problems):

CVE-2019-1221, CVE-2019-1194, CVE-2019-1133, CVE-2019-1059, CVE-2019-1056, CVE-2019-1004, CVE-2019-1001, CVE-2019-1080, CVE-2019-1055, CVE-2019-1005, CVE-2019-0988, CVE-2019-0920, CVE-2019-0918, CVE-2019-0911, CVE-2019-0884, CVE-2019-0862, CVE-2019-0835, CVE-2019-0753, CVE-2019-0752, CVE-2019-0783, CVE-2019-0746, CVE-2019-0680, CVE-2019-0609, CVE-2018-8653, CVE-2018-8643 (…)

and also on VBScript (worth reading):

CVE-2019-1208, CVE-2019-0768, CVE-2019-0667, CVE-2019-0666, CVE-2019-0665 (…)

Thus: we’re at DEFCON 1, wait.

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jburk07, rc primak, Myst

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Just checked the MS Catalog to find all patches are now showing the 4th October as being last updated. These were a mixture of 2nd/3rd October when initially released on the 3rd October.

metadata change? patch update? just a date change? ( but why?)

WTH is going on over at M esS?
Note: WU SMQR (Group A) have not been re-issued/changed.
(our WU is empty and up-to-date on W8.1)

If debian is good enough for NASA...

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jburk07, Myst

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Win 7 x64, Office 2010 x64, Group A

We are currently at DEFCON 1 and I have yet to update any September patches.  We only have 2 days before October patch Tuesday.

Should I continue to hold on September patches?

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Yes, continue to hold until the DEFCON number is 3 or greater.
We may even miss September, if we haven’t yet patched.
Whotta a mess!

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jburk07, bassmanzam, SueW

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As an update: Being unable to print to my HP OfficeJet Pro 8740 on a wired network while awaiting a reissued patch wasn’t acceptable to the CEO here at home (hint: not me!). I tried uninstalling the HP software, looking for a later version (none available), and reinstalling it. This didn’t fix anything. E.g., I like to set the Printing Preferences to use the lowest quality print and also specify a particular tray. When attempting this, it not only didn’t work, but crashed file explorer. So on one desktop at Windows 10 Version 1903, I rolled back KB4517211 – tested and still broken. I then rolled back KB4524147 and now all is well. C’mon MS, let’s get this fixed.

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jburk07

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Ok, did 4524157 (the out-of-band from last week) get rereleased or something? Because now I’m seeing that as “newer” than this week’s “real” rollup…

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woody

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