Things I didn’t know: “Check for updates” in Win10 1903 now warns about optional and feature updates

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I must’ve been sleeping when this announcement hit the waves: https://twitter.com/edbott/status/1169570258283139075 Best I can tell, as is so often th
[See the full post at: Things I didn’t know: “Check for updates” in Win10 1903 now warns about optional and feature updates]

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lmacri, CyGuy

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Regarding “A related observation: It looks like we’ve definitively lost the user interface for “Choose when updates are installed” in Win10 1903 Pro if either feature or quality deferrals are non-zero. At first I thought that was a bug. Now I guess it’s a … feature?”

The settings are still available in Group Policy. After making your GP settings, they will be displayed in the Settings UI, but greyed out. It often took a restart before they were displayed.

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woody, CyGuy

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woody wrote:

I must’ve been sleeping when this announcement hit the waves

I posted a screenshot 9/1.  You visited that topic, but maybe you didn’t see that particular post.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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woody

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I’ve seen the notification – including the one that you posted.

But I didn’t realize that this was now common behavior. It wasn’t, just a few weeks ago.

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weedacres wrote:

Regarding “A related observation: It looks like we’ve definitively lost the user interface for “Choose when updates are installed” in Win10 1903 Pro if either feature or quality deferrals are non-zero. At first I thought that was a bug. Now I guess it’s a … feature?”

The settings are still available in Group Policy. After making your GP settings, they will be displayed in the Settings UI, but greyed out. It often took a restart before they were displayed.

The setting for feature updates only allows up to 30 days. I prefer 90 days given MS’s track record. You can edit these values in the registry. But, does the OS honor those settings?

Byte me!

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CyGuy

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It appears as if, whether they’re completely hidden or grayed out, Windows Update honors both settings.

I say “appears if” because I’ll be hanged if I can find any official documentation.

MS changed 1903 updating sometime in the past few weeks – people are reporting different results (hidden/grayed) that now appear to be related to a change that wasn’t documented. Unless I’m missing something.

It still isn’t clear to me if changing the servicing branch with gpedit will have any effect at all.

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pHROZEN gHOST wrote:

The setting for feature updates only allows up to 30 days.

I think you meant quality updates there, right?

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woody

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This could also have a potential for issues Should MSFT bork up a future patch which relies on an ‘optional’ patch that is missing. de ja vu, time will tell.. But in theory it makes W10 that tiny bit more appealing on the surface (NOT the device)

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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UPDATE: Ed just changed his long-standing ZDNet explainer about Windows updating. He’s included a section on this new “Download and install now” behavior for “optional” (= not Patch Tuesday) patches.

As of version 1903, Windows 10 no longer installs feature updates automatically. Instead, as with the optional cumulative updates delivered in the “C” and “D” weeks, the update is listed as available in Windows Update, but you have to click Download And Install to kick off the installation. This change affects all editions, including Windows 10 Home.

As best I can tell, that behavior changed very recently. It may have coincided with the change in the appearance/disappearance of the “Choose when updates are installed” part of the user interface in Win10 1903 Pro.

There’s a whole lot of paddling going on beneath the surface. Fortunately, the changes (if they work the way Ed describes) are definitely in the right direction.

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abbodi86, CyGuy

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Unfortunately my 35 days expires Sept. 6 and my device will need to get new updates before I can pause again. Hopefully Defcon 2 end today or tomorrow.

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Microfix

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Stay tuned. I’m struggling with that exact problem right now.

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Microfix, dohmixer

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woody wrote:

Stay tuned. I’m struggling with that exact problem right now.

Who did the math ? Microsoft ? Patch August was on Aug. 13 + 35 days = September 17.

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Alex5723 wrote:

woody wrote:

Stay tuned. I’m struggling with that exact problem right now.

Who did the math ? Microsoft ? Patch August was on Aug. 13 + 35 days = September 17.

My last updates were installed on August 2.

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dohmixer wrote:

Alex5723 wrote:

woody wrote:

Stay tuned. I’m struggling with that exact problem right now.

Who did the math ? Microsoft ? Patch August was on Aug. 13 + 35 days = September 17.

My last updates were installed on August 2.

So were mine, July updates. August update is a new round of deferral.

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woody wrote:

As best I can tell, that behavior changed very recently.

For us Seekers, it has been around for a good while, now.

“Starting with update KB4497934, we are introducing functionality that allows you to decide when to install a feature update. You control when you get a feature update while simultaneously keeping your devices up to date. Feature updates that are available for eligible devices will appear in a separate module on the Windows Update page (Settings > Update & Security > Windows Update). If you would like to get an available update right away, select Download and install now.”

Posted May 21,2019: “Beginning today, the May 2019 Update is available for customers who would like to install the latest release. If you are ready to install the update, open your Windows Update settings (Settings > Update & Security > Windows Update) and select Check for updates. Once the update appears, you can select Download and install now. (Note: You may not see Download and install now on your device as we are slowly throttling up this availability, while we carefully monitor data and feedback). Once the download is complete and the update is ready to install, we’ll notify you so that you can pick the right time to finish the installation and reboot, ensuring the update does not disrupt you. This new ‘Download and install now’ capability is available for devices running Windows 10, version 1803 or version 1809 that also have the May 21st updates (or later) installed.”

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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abbodi86, Barry

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Yes, you’re absolutely right, but…

Those are for feature updates = version changes. (The new behavior in 1803 and 1809 has been recognized and it’s greatly appreciated.)

The behavior that’s changed, far as I can see, is with second (and third?) monthly cumulative updates.

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That behavior in 1803 is for scheduled scans only

if you click “check for updates” it will auto-start installing 1903 (unless of course you have deferral set)

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bbearren wrote:

“Feature updates that are available for eligible devices will appear in a separate module on the Windows Update page (Settings > Update & Security > Windows Update). If you would like to get an available update right away, select Download and install now.”

Does blocking/postponing updates make a device ineligible?  It would seem so.  If an otherwise available update has been blocked/postponed, the update would not likely be seen in Windows Update until the blocking is removed or the postponement period has expired.

I only block drivers.  I expect to see any other update for my hardware/software combination to be seen as soon as it becomes available from Microsoft, after I click on Check for updates.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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pHROZEN gHOST wrote:

weedacres wrote:

Regarding “A related observation: It looks like we’ve definitively lost the user interface for “Choose when updates are installed” in Win10 1903 Pro if either feature or quality deferrals are non-zero. At first I thought that was a bug. Now I guess it’s a … feature?”

The settings are still available in Group Policy. After making your GP settings, they will be displayed in the Settings UI, but greyed out. It often took a restart before they were displayed.

The setting for feature updates only allows up to 30 days. I prefer 90 days given MS’s track record. You can edit these values in the registry. But, does the OS honor those settings?

The Pro version lets you delay feature upgrades up to 365 days and “quality” updates up to 30 days.

 

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Not so. Win10 1903 lets you defer cumulative (“quality”) updates up to 35 days. Home restricts you to 7-day increments. Pro lets you choose a date.

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woody wrote:

Not so. Win10 1903 lets you defer cumulative (“quality”) updates up to 35 days.

Defer is 30 days. Pause is 35 days.

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b wrote:

Defer is 30 days. Pause is 35 days.

This is what it looks like on my fully updated 1903 OS Build 18.362.329.

Pause is 7 days.

Temporarily pause/defer is 35 days.

 

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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bbearren wrote:

Temporarily pause/defer is 35 days.

There’s no “defer” in that pause for up to 35 days option.

(Pause starts when you do it. Defer is from release date.)

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CyGuy, woody

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I “checked for updates” from Microsoft update and it’s installing whether I like it or not.  And what’s up with “click to run update support” and Windows admin center”?

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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geekdom

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This is on 1903?

OIC. The “Download and install now” courtesy only extends to cumulative updates and new versions. I guess.

Man, it’d be nice if MS documented some of this stuff.

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Yup 1903

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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[geekdom]

I think Microsoft provided new rules, but neglected to issue a new rule book.

Windows Admin Center explanation here:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/manage/windows-admin-center/understand/windows-admin-center

Click-to-run explanation related:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/2753538/automatic-updating-for-office-2013-and-office-2016-click-to-run-is-not

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• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by geekdom.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by geekdom.

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In my tests, I ran into some unexpected behavior with optional patch KB4512941.

While KB4512941  is displayed as optional in the Windows Update panel, you can click Check for updates all you like and it will not be installed.  Other available (non-optional) patches will be downloaded and installed, as before, but the optional patch is left alone.  So far, so good.

When you decide to install KB4512941 by clicking Download and install now, the installation proceeds as expected. But now, if  you uninstall KB4512941 and subsequently click Check for updates, it won’t show back up as an optional patch as you would expect.  Instead, it will be immediately downloaded and reinstalled.  Oops!

I doubt this behavior is specific to KB4512941, that’s just the first (and only) optional patch I’ve seen in win10.  Fingers crossed that it’s a bug and not a design “feature.”  We live in hope.

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woody, geekdom

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Blimey!

Another oddity….

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(Replying to myself) I forgot to mention a few other things.  First, I was testing win10 pro 1903 x64, build 18362.295.  Second, and a little troubling, optional patch KB4512941 was completely invisible to wushowhide.diagcab even when that finds other patches.  So, it seems that you can’t hide an optional patch that way.  Third, the optional patch never just appeared out of thin air, I had to click Check for updates for it to show up.

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I pray that for the day that Microsoft finally understand that Windows 10 would be perfect if the users could have Update control like they had in Windows 7

Just someone who don't want Windows to mess with its computer.

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Well, for certain values of “perfect,” perhaps… but the lack of control over updates is part of a broader issue of Microsoft thinking that the owners of the hardware should not be in control of their own property.  It extends beyond updates, to things like telemetry (that has no “turn it all off, and leave it that way” button) and beyond.  If MS would take to heart that it is the owners of the hardware and not MS that should be in control, all of the specific problems would be resolved, and Windows 10 could be good (but not perfect… nothing is).  Given Microsoft’s evident devotion to controlling people’s PCs in the face of four years of complaints, that doesn’t seem likely.

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[bbearren]

b wrote:

There’s no “defer” in that pause for up to 35 days option.

Check that again.  If one clicks on the “Pause updates for 7 days”, “Resume updates” appears right above it.  Click “Resume updates” and Windows Update immediately checks for updates.

In “Advanced options”, above “Select date” it clearly states, “Pause until”.  In other words, pause updates until the date selected.  The farthest available date out being 35 days from the day one initiates “Pause until” by selecting an end date.  Updates will automatically resume on the selected date, with no further action required by the user.

Technically, that’s a deferral, but Windows is still calling it a pause.  In both cases, updates must resume before another pause/defer can be initiated.  It isn’t even necessary to go to Advanced options to get the 35 days.  One can click Pause updates for 7 days 5 times, and it sets the date available in Advanced options, like this:

Clicking on Resume updates at any time will initiate checking for updates immediately.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by bbearren.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 7 months ago by bbearren.

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bbearren wrote:

b wrote:
There’s no “defer” in that pause for up to 35 days option.

Check that again.

The word “defer” still doesn’t appear there. Or here.

 

bbearren wrote:

Technically, that’s a deferral, but Windows is still calling it a pause.

You can’t defer something which may not happen.

But you can defer quality updates for up to 30 days from release date.

 

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b wrote:

But you can defer quality updates for up to 30 days from release date.

Your link was “Last Updated: Nov 5, 2018”.  Today is September 5, 2019.

“From the boxes under Choose when updates are installed, select the number of days you would like to defer a feature update or a quality update. Note: If your PC is managed by an organization, you may not be able to defer updates.”

The “number of days” boxes have been deprecated from my machines.

bbearren wrote:

This is what it looks like on my fully updated 1903 OS Build 18.362.329.

Some get this change in Windows Update, some don’t.  I’m only referencing my 5 installations, which all have the feature set I have described.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Your link explains how you can still defer quality updates for up to 30 days from release date.

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The optional updates apparently do not show up in Wushowhide.  You have to run the real Windows Update to see them (if any).

Windows 10 Pro 64 bit 20H2

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In reference to this post, dated today, September 5, the graphic clearly shows “Updates will resume on 10/10/2019”.

Counting the days on the calendar, the 35th day after today, updates will resume.  Again, I’m only referencing my 5 installations, which all have the feature set I have described.

Clicking the Pause button once pauses updates for 7 days, unless, of course, one clicks “Resume”, in which case Windows Update immediately begins looking for updates.  There may not be any, but Windows will indeed check.  Clicking the Pause button 5 times, or going to the Advanced options and selecting the last date available in the drop-down, will provide 35 days of pausing updates.

None of my 5 installations any longer have the deferral boxes UI:

Not that any of this matters to me particularly, since I have nothing blocked other than drivers, and I am a seeker, but I’m the canary in the coal mine.  This is how my 5 installations look fully updated.  This is not how everyone’s looks, this is how mine look.  And that’s all I’m saying.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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bbearren wrote:

And that’s all I’m saying.

So you now agree that all updates can be paused for up to 35 days, but quality updates can only be deferred for up to 30 days? (Because this all started when you disagreed with me saying that.)

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b wrote:

So you now agree that all updates can be paused for up to 35 days, but quality updates can only be deferred for up to 30 days? (Because this all started when you disagreed with me saying that.)

No, I don’t agree, that simply is not my experience, because while I block driver updates, I neither block nor delay any other updates.  Also how does “all updates” not include “quality updates”?

On the other hand, Microsoft says “Pause updates: We have extended the ability to pause updates for both feature and monthly updates. This extension ability is for all editions of Windows 10, including Home. You can pause both feature and monthly updates for up to 35 days (seven days at a time, up to five times). Once the 35-day pause period is reached, you will need to update your device before pausing again.”

This graphic of Update history from the B side of my laptop shows “Feature update to Windows 10, version 1903” as a “Feature Update”, while KB4506991 and KB4503308 are shown as “Quality Updates”.

Clearly, going from 1803 to 1809 is a “Feature Update”.  Do “Quality Updates” fall under Microsoft’s category of “monthly updates”?  It would seem so, since “Quality Updates” are not “Feature Updates”, and the Microsoft article does not list “Quality Updates”, only “monthly updates”.

However, I’m not going to postpone updates for 35 days just to test this premise, because I prefer being a Seeker, and staying fully updated.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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bbearren wrote:

No, I don’t agree, that simply is not my experience, because while I block driver updates, I neither block nor delay any other updates.

Something is not impossible just because you don’t do it.

bbearren wrote:

Also how does “all updates” not include “quality updates”?

It does.

bbearren wrote:

However, I’m not going to postpone updates for 35 days just to test this premise, because I prefer being a Seeker, and staying fully updated.

Me too. But we could either pause all updates for 35 days from today, or defer future monthly/quality updates for an extra 30 days from release date (or both!)

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