There’s a seeker born every minute

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We know a little bit more about how and why Win10 1709 users are being pushed onto Win10 1803. Post coming in Computerworld.
[See the full post at: There’s a seeker born every minute]

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dononline

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As P. T. Barnum wrote: “This way to the egress.”

On permanent hiatus {with backup and coffee}
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anita.yk

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Don’t have a big picture of what devices are getting this upgrade pushed to them. But my feeling is Microsoft is being pretty aggressive with them except for maybe some tagged hardware that doesn’t work well with 1803. My Dell 5567 went very quickly upgrading but has a SSD. My wife’s HP similar vintage notebook but with 5400 spin drive took over 3 hours. My advice is plan for a extended period to upgrade.

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“Check for updates” is not push, it’s pull.

Who invented the term “seeker”? Woody?

After three years, why do some here still have trouble grasping the concept that Windows 10 updates are automatic unless deferred?

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I don’t know who invented the term “seeker” but it’s being widely used on the rollout team.

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Elly, dononline

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I interpret “seeker” as a pop-culture way of labeling someone who is “seeking” to install whatever Windows update is currently available.

Once you are labeled a “seeker”, they now have an excuse for pushing updates to you against your will, because technically you are someone who is “seeking” all available updates. In other words, you really did want that update, even though you may have been acting like you didn’t.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Elly, anita.yk, HiFlyer, dononline, OscarCP

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No excuse needed. You get what you ask for (unless deferred).

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You missed my point entirely. What I meant was, Microsoft has come up with yet another way to be able to say that someone wants updates/upgrades, regardless of whether that person actually wants them or not.

Sounds like a term that the Microsoft legal team came up with to give Microsoft “cover” for forcing updates/upgrades on a person’s computer.

How else can you explain it when people set updates to “deferred”, only to find that that setting had been flipped to “on” without their knowledge or consent?

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Elly, HiFlyer, dononline

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No, I got your point entirely. If someone clicks, “Check for updates” they are seeking updates.

But coining a new term for a traditional practice (if anyone actually did that officially anyway) would be meaningless in legal terms.

How many computers do you know of which got 1803 despite “Defer feature updates” being set to more than a week?

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No, b, you didn’t get the point. If someone clicks, “Check for Updates” they want, and expect, to be provided a list of available updates. Or if you want to go along with MS’s coining a new, meaningless term, they are “seeking” a list of available updates. They are not necessarily “seeking” updates to be downloaded and installed without even being provided the slightest hint of what’s being installed on their computers. I’ve already told you the reason for this in another post so I won’t repeat it here. However, you can look it up if, for reasons known only to you, you still don’t know.

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Elly, HiFlyer

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That’s not the way Windows 10 has ever worked.

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b wrote:

How many computers do you know of which got 1803 despite “Defer feature updates” being set to more than a week?

I didn’t say anything about “1803”. I said “updates”. And I’ve read several posts right here at AskWoody in which the poster said that although he had updates set to “defer”, he found that it got flipped all by itself to “on”.

Update: Here are 11 computers which got upgraded to 1803 without their consent:

https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/theres-a-seeker-born-every-minute/#post-190039

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Elly, HiFlyer

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This whole thread and ComputerWorld article is all about 1803.

No mention at all of those 11 computers having set “Defer”, so “Check for updates” IS consent.

P.S. Why does no one ever whine about Google Chrome’s automatic updates, which can sometimes break favorite extensions?

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I only use Chrome for a few sites at work, but I can certainly say that Firefox users certainly do complain about updates breaking extensions – those who didn’t rabidly follow development got a rude awakening when Firefox 57 hit, from when I looked at support threads for a number of top extensions that couldn’t be converted to WebExtensions. I had migrated to Waterfox a while before, since I was aware of Firefox’s impending implosion.

That said, one must wonder how many users regularly check for updates to be patched, but didn’t know about the impending arrival of 1803. I know the average user from my experience knows that Win 10 updates and upgrades a lot, but not how often. I’ve warned patrons it was coming soon so that they could expect it, because they had no idea. Granted, GWX left a bad taste in people’s mouths, so I can’t think of a good way for MS to give people a heads up that doesn’t smack of that.

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Elly, HiFlyer

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Since Nov 2017, M$ has introduced KB4023057 and KB4023814 to re-allow blocked or disabled Windows Update, eg disabled by Win 10 users through Windows Services and/or Registry tweaks.
___ This enabled M$ to “force” upgrade many Win 10 users to Win 10 Version 1709 in Jan and March 2018, even ignoring the users’ WU deferral settings.

Seems, M$ and some Win 10 power-users are playing a cat-and-mouse game.

Wonder, will this end up well for both sides.?

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Elly, HiFlyer, dononline

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If their automatic then they are pushed, if you reach out for something then you are pulling it. But what if you simply wanted to get the latest defender updates and skip the upgrade?

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Select Defer feature updates, or download them from;

Definition updates for Windows Defender

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radosuaf

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To get Win Defender definition updates, without Windows OS updates:

Open Win Defender, click the “Update” tap, click the “Update definitions” tap –
then you will get only Defender updates (incl. evt. engine updates)

Gordon7.

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Elly, HiFlyer

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Windows Defender in recent versions of Windows 10 does not have an update tab.

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… but it does have “Check for updates” at Virus & threat protection.

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Seeker is a position in the wizarding sport of Quidditch. There is one Seeker per team. The goal of the Seeker is to catch the Golden Snitch.

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Seeker
+1 to MS for the ode to Harry Potter.

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“Seeker” is a perfectly good English word. It means “someone who seeks after X”, where X could be any desirable object (such as the winged golden ball in Quidditch) or a transcendental and, or high-purpose abstract goal such as beauty, truth, enlightenment, freedom, etc.

Also: Win 10 is not my thing. I patiently await news of Win 7, once the sturm und drang over the latest upgrade, forced or otherwise, of the former is over. Hoping there will be no news at all…

 

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

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The Surfing Pensioner, HiFlyer

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Likewise.

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Sorry, I don’t speak Muggle.

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Well, 1709 was buggy out-of-the-box (including some serious internal bugs Microsoft is not going to fix) and anyone on 1709 should be more than happy to move over to 1803.

But, make no mistake and do not install 1803 until Microsoft fixed some bugs (Web search cannot be disabled [group policy settings are ignored], Settings crashes occasionally, directory lists in File Explorer scroll to the top unexpectedly, issues with moving Start menu tiles, etc..).

If you can’t wait to get 1803, but don’t want Web search (a.k.a. Cortana) talking home, disable the outgoing firewall rule ‘Cortana’ and add http://www.bing.com to the hosts file. This also prevents File Explorer (got quite chatty in 1803) from talking home.

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This “seeker phenomenon” may be related to the recent KB4023057 and KB4023814 updates which had previously forced upgrades to Win 10 Version 1709 in Jan and March 2018 by reallowing blocked or disabled Windows Update through WU deferral settings or Windows Services and/or Registry tweaks.

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woody wrote:

That’s how it’s been forever … Some people found themselves on the new version after clicking Check for Updates.
…
It’s just one more example of patching changes without warning.

You can’t have both. Which is it? Forever or change?

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My interpretation of Woody’s comment was that “patching changes without warning” have been happening “forever” in the lifetime of Windows 10.

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“That’s how it’s been forever” didn’t follow anything about changes or warnings.

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Just so you know, b, this is not a courtroom, and we are not lawyers fighting it out. We are just folks having a friendly discussion about Windows, Microsoft, and other IT-related issues.

At least that is the goal.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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b, HiFlyer, dononline

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Many thanks for the enlightenment, but I didn’t start the “interpretation”.

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I wasn’t referring to what you are currently posting; I was referring to what you have often posted for a very long time. I have often felt that you split hairs and try to find fault in what people say. Even with what Woody says; and that’s a shame, because Woody is one of the friendliest people I know of.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Elly, HiFlyer, Cybertooth

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I just point out when I think Woody’s wrong, which is not that unusual lately.

(He needs a secretary and/or proofreader.)

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b, you may have to forgive us. I speak only for myself, but feel a fairly high assurance that I read others correctly as well, when I say you are being self deprecating here. Like in a, ‘What? Who, me?’ kind of way.

Each of your posts does not stand alone. You have a strong, unique ‘voice’ in the way you present that becomes recognizable. Readers become familiar with your series of posts and note what seems to be an agenda. As long as that assists in illuminating new information, it is well received. When tactics in semantics are employed, it is received as argument for the sake of argument only.

If I have extended my opinion too far by including others, I apologize.

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Elly, anita.yk, HiFlyer, Cybertooth

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Well when it comes out May 8th, I AM HIDING IT USING WUHIDE on the 8th. I haven’t touched windows update after reading the headlines that you’ll get tricked into downloading 1803 that way. SO I am waiting until may 8th to hide it.

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After upgrading to 1703, I became a seeker to try to get fully patched on 1703, not get 1803.

Luckily for me, the deferral GPs clearly told Microsoft I wasn’t seeking for anything else and they nicely didn’t forget to honor the GPs. They took me to the letter a bit too much as they told me for 8 days I was fully patched when I clearly wasn’t, as my 1703 was patched up to December only after being installed in late April while my previous 1607 was fully patched when I installed 1703. Odd.

Also, I found out the GPs only seemed to have a delayed effect on the Windows settings UI. I changed the GPs, gpupdate /force, restart, Windows settings UI still shows previous values until the next day when then Windows update suddenly panics and says I really need to update now because of security.

 

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Elly, Microfix

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I seem to recall back in the olden days before there was Red Bull and social networking there were these things called service packs. And they would be released on Windows Update as an optional update for a period of time…..

Red Ruffnsore

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Elly

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Beginning today at 10 a.m. P.T., the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update will start rolling out to Windows 10 PCs across the world in phases, starting with newer machines first. …….

If you don’t want to wait for the update to roll out to you, you can manually check for updates on your personal PC using the steps below. This will only work if your device is eligible to get the Fall Creators Update as part of the initial roll out phase. Alternatively, you can manually get the update today via the Software Download Site.

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/10/17/get-windows-10-fall-creators-update/
.

Here’s how to get the Windows 10 April 2018 Update

The April 2018 Update is available today if you go to Windows Update and manually check for updates. We will begin the global rollout out via Windows Update on May 8. As with previous rollouts, we will use real-time quality feedback to smartly update your device when we have data that shows your device is ready and will have a great experience. You don’t have to do anything to get the update; it will roll out automatically to you through Windows Update if you’ve chosen to have updates installed automatically on your device.

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2018/04/30/how-to-get-the-windows-10-april-2018-update/#JhccW0dm75mUTbkC.97
.
Seems, beginning with the Win 10 April 2018 Update(1803), feature updates will also roll-out to those who manually “Check for updates”, irrespective of the age of their machines.
___ This “forced” upgrade may be due to KB4023057 and KB4023814 which re-allow blocked or disabled Windows Update.

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Elly, dononline

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Yep. You’re right. The big difference is in how many people got the update on Day 1.

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woody wrote:

The big difference is in how many people got the update on Day 1.

How many people got the update on Day 1?

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Yeah, not only was I surprised by the “Update and Restart” option when I was shutting down last night, I awoke to ten minutes of happy “upgrade” horse pucky this morning before a wondrous reveal of a beyond  buggy OS in which left click no longer worked on Start Menu or any other MS taskbar/core element. Oh and UAC was inoperable. And Defender inaccessible.

After 45 minutes of infuriating discourse with an overseas call center blaming me and the vendors/drivers of my less-than-brand-new hardware, I made them roll back the upgrade – which, lo and behold, fixed their forced, rushed and untested nonsense.

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My access to the Internet is exclusively ia WiFi and I Have “set as metered connection” ON.
This has blocked the download and will remain so until May 8 (at least).

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Is there a serious reason as to why Microsoft is so obsessed with forcing updates down people’s throats recently? They’ve confused everyone, even themselves.

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No.

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FYI, I have KB4023057 and KB4023814 hidden. KB4023057 keeps getting re-issued every week, it seems … so I just keep hiding it. Well, not always. Three times last month it snuck through my defenses and installed itself and immediately started the install of 1709. I managed to stop it and get things cleaned up, though. I’m currently on 1607, and I’m still being force-fed … uh, excuse me, I’m still “seeking” 1709 on my three computers. 1804 … uh, 1803, hasn’t shown up yet. I don’t know what that means, other than maybe MS’s telemetry hasn’t been able to determine the state of my computers since I have them pretty well locked down, or else MS just wants to be snarky and force me to upgrade to 1709, reboot, and immediately upgrade to 1803. That’ll teach me to defy the greatness of WaaS! 🙂

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Cybertooth

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I run a small refurbishing operation.  We donate our computers to low income seniors once we have refurbed them.  I can confirm everything that Woody has written about.  The computers that are given to us for refurbing vary in age from 3 – 8 years old.

Just as Woody described, in the past, whenever we manually  chose to “Check for updates” we were never automatically updated to a newer version of Win 10.  For example, as of January 1, we were still installing 1703 on our refurb machines, and when we checked for updates, 1709 was never installed to any of our machines, presumably because MS realized they weren’t “worthy” of 1709.

However, today, when we installed 1709 on 11 machines, and manually checked for updates, every one of the machines started to download 1803 to the machine.    Needless to say, this would have been a disaster, had we let it proceed.  So  we killed the download, and used the group policy editor to postpone the download.

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anita.yk, Elly, HiFlyer

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Do all these computers come to you with Windows 10 installed, or do you spend $120-$200 on each upgrading them to Windows 10?

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Not familiar with the term “seeker” and could really care less, but… We have had the issue of at least a half dozen machines that were running 1703 (2 of which are my own) that were in the land of eternal upgrade! They would constantly harass my users about upgrading, take forever if they took the bait, and then provide a variety of reasons why they couldn’t complete the upgrade only to start the whole cycle over again in a day or two! I’ve spent hours researching and trying various tricks to get past this with no joy! I’ve even attempted to upgrade a Windows 8.1 machine to 1709 with the same results! 1803, however, seems to have resolved the issue! Go figure! Must have been some sort of install bug in 1709.

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Came across the article after the fact. Think that the “seeker” role has a different action than the article & many other’s have already posted. Reason I say that is that on the “expected” release date I was dealing with a restore & then I went back to reinstall the last update between restoration points.

Found more than expected though! 1709 & the 18 edition were waiting. Not a big deal I thought. After those did the usual I found my computer frozen & needing a restart. This got me a notification that the update didn’t take. For whatever reason this happened about 6-7 time’s. FINALLY get up & running so checked on the expected updates. But this for some reason multiplied the updates while somehow skipping over the original expected. No idea how but had a 1716 update as well as 4x 1809 updates suddenly!! Obviously an error. Standard practice later really had me scratching my head. 1809 was installed with no record of any 16 or 17 editions! Figured wasn’t going to complain about it as everything seemed to be working.

The next day turning on the message starts rolling about upgrades being configured. Puzzled by this going to the area to see what what upgraded version I had NOW showed that I was actually back to where I was supposed to be. Wondering what happened to the other 2 I tap the button & sure enough! Updates found!! So of course after each update comes the reboot & we all check out what new features we have (either joyfully or woefully) to deal with. “1809 failed to install. Please try again later.” So I do. Only to wind up losing the upgrade just did to 1709!! Several times over went from being up to date to upgraded to downgraded!

What I found was if I checked out what was in the latest upgrade 1st would show me either upcoming or that there was nothing more. Checking on further updates WOULD FIND! Today I found this article & started to wonder if maybe being a “seeker” was actually a form of punishment by Microsoft. A sort of, “Wait until we are ready to upgrade your system! It is coming!!” Was able to get 1709 & if my system can be trusted any longer, a 1716? version. Not going to check after this article plus the chaos endured already.

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16, 17, 18 edition? 1716, 1809 update? ???

Fyi, so far the current Win 10 Versions are 1607, 1703, 1709 and 1803.

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