The Windows 11 disconnect

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PATCH WATCH By Susan Bradley Despite my being a CPA, earnings calls are not usually a part of my technology coverage for Patch Watch. I’m making an ex
[See the full post at: The Windows 11 disconnect]

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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rizzquery, fisher75, DLivesInTexas, windbg, lmacri, rc primak

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Linux, for all its plaudits, requires more hand-holding at the client level than is wise for the general public.

And yet, AskWoody still exists. So many times a month there is a need for Windows “hand holding” that I can’t easily keep count of the number of topics, old and new, and the number of new questions and issues in the Replies.

Linux is not more difficult than Windows — it is more diverse (what some call “fragmented”). So, one answer does not fit all Linux installs. That is the main difference, not the inherent level of difficulty. Not anymore, for the most popular Linux distros. And yes, the technical terms used also differ a bit.

If you want a specific answer to a particular error message in Windows, the available information and advice from Microsoft is no more likely to solve the issue than the easily available information for a particular Linux issue which can be found in the top three to five search results on the topic for Linux help.  AI assistants, both for Linux and Windows (and other platforms) are rapidly blurring the lines even for this example.

-- rc primak

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WSbobby-p, rizzquery

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The Windows 11 disconnect appears to be a good reason to remain on Windows 10 as long as possible.

Perhaps even past the end of Microsoft support.

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rbailin, JPMedia

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I don’t understand the headline after reading the article three times.

What’s the disconnect and why does it apply to Windows 11?

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Cybertooth

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Perhaps the following?

“Too many of Microsoft’s best security features are locked away in more expensive versions and offerings. My hope is that this most recent feedback from all of us will get Microsoft to stop trying to advertise to us and just make Windows a better and more secure platform. Microsoft still has the largest ecosystem out there, with an enormous number of legacy applications built specifically for Windows.

Ultimately, keeping customers secure should be Redmond’s first duty.”

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Kenneth Stephens, rizzquery

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Thanks for the suggestion, but it doesn’t seem Windows 11-specific.

I assume the headline must be about the preceding paragraph and Windows 11’s Show Desktop button, but re-reversing the default due to feedback doesn’t seem like much of a disconnect (eventually).

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I interpreted the analysis as specific to the operating systems and products Microsoft is “selling” now.

 

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b

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I see your point, and Windows is mentioned twice in that paragraph.

If only we knew what the sub-heading “The security feedback” meant.

I didn’t think “all the headlines” recently were about Windows 11.

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I like the article and it’s warning that Microsoft still continues to use us as beta testers for features that are clearly not ready for rolling out to the general .

I would disagree though with the following:

“Windows is an affordable and accessible platform for the vast majority of us, notwithstanding its annoyances and privacy concerns. In most respects, it can be tamed. The Apple ecosystem is expensive.”

As someone who has supported hundreds of users if not thousands over the last 10 years in small businesses around my area, the majority with Windows and a minority with Apple, and as a heavy technical user of both systems for the last 20 years of my life, I would say that Apple is expensive only if you don’t value your time. the windows users I support, including myself have vastly more problems with Windows than the Apple users.  Apple computers have lasted longer than the majority of Windows machines I support, not only Hardware wise, but software wise as well. I know that Windows is used because it’s cheap to buy a machine and companies Don’t like to include their labor costs in their calculations. But that’s a false economy. however, it is reality and I continue to support Windows machines and recommend them because companies don’t want to hear that they need to spend more money to get a more reliable computer it cost less and support costs to me at my hourly rate or to their internal employees . thanks for your great columns. I look forward to them every week.

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rizzquery, Rand Alonin, windbg, satrow, PKCano

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8string wrote:

I would say that Apple is expensive only if you don’t value your time.

Before I retired, I worked for a Fortune 500 mining company, but not in IT.  I don’t know how many hundreds of Windows PC’s/workstations were in use, just that it was many hundreds.  Every mining location had its own server room, but all sites were networked together.  Everyone had roaming accounts; I could log in on any machine not already in use by someone else.  The draglines had PC’s with WiFi access.  There were six mining locations when I retired, and two chemical plants.  All of the control software for all plants ran on Windows.

Corporate IT was out of state.  Updates were pushed from there.  There was a staff of five IT techs to service all six locations.  There were two each at the chemical plants.  One of the chemical plants was big enough to have its own fire department.  Florida headquarters also had two IT techs.

From all these anecdotal reports we read, one might expect a small army of IT techs to handle so many hundreds of Windows machines, but that was simply not the case.  Windows can indeed be tamed.  Using Windows PC’s rather than Apple hardware probably cut the costs at least by half, if not more.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Cybertooth

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There is no doubt that a well managed IT org can handle the scenario you describe. I myself ran a 1000 node network like that in the 90’s. But the average small business today, with no paid full time staff, and not even a consultant to call on, is not going to able to afford this kind of support. I often get calls from people struggling with unexplainable Windows problems. That just rarely if ever happens with my Mac clients. Blue screens of death? Just saw one yesterday on Windows 11. When it happens, I often spend long hours trying to figure out why. Can I charge clients for that? No. Often I just change out the machine for them.  I cannot remember the last time I saw a Mac that didn’t boot up properly. I’ve seen it, but  very few and far between. And the large paper mill near me, where I have occassionally helped out their IT org, will not spend the money to setup like your well run mining operation. They have over 300 machine on three shifts a day and their IT budget is miniscule. They still are running Windows 95 in some places because they can’t get the budget to rewrite the app. They struggle to provide proper security.  The requirement to properly setup an org like you describe requires budget and an IT leader that is capable of selling that budget to upper management.

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8string wrote:

But the average small business today, with no paid full time staff, and not even a consultant to call on, is not going to able to afford this kind of support.

You seem to have misread my reply, or it was poorly written on my part.  I mentioned hundreds of networked workstations/PC’s (I didn’t mention laptops, but they were also plentiful), as well as full server rooms, with an IT staff of five.  I don’t understand how one might see this as a high level of support.  In all my years, I saw an IT tech on three occasions, all to replace failed hardware; once a motherboard, a crashed HDD, and a hot-swap of a HDD in a server.  In each case (except for the server), after the hardware repairs were complete, the tech attached a portable drive and restored the corporate image to the HDD.  They also had a number of spare machines that could be put into service if the hardware repairs were too extensive, but I never heard of that happening.

The IT support was actually low-budget, simply because Windows was locked down tight and there were never any OS issues.  There were multiple redundancies in the servers that were also networked to a mainframe that contained a number of huge databases.  Warehouse inventory, for example, was millions of items, and that database was stored on the mainframe.  My group of twelve used Maptek Vulcan software, with never a hiccup.

Before I retired they were still on Windows 7 Enterprise.  They skipped 8 entirely, and upgraded to Windows 10 sometime in mid-2019.  They might be on 11 now, but I’ve been out of touch for a while.  Hardware upgrades are done company wide (about every three years), and the OEM who won the contract was given the corporate images for the various platforms to install on the new machines.  They were delivered by the truckload, ready to plug in and power up.

My point remains that Windows can indeed be tamed, locked down, and become simply a platform upon which the important stuff gets done, like complete control of multiple interrelated/interconnected processes on a 24/7/365 schedule.  It’s all in knowing how.

 

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Well a full time staff in IT (you now mention you had a mainframe, how many other people managed that?)

Our manufacturing campus in the 90s had a full time staff of 2 of us for 1000 desktops, oh wait, we had two full time people running the Sun workstations, two of us for the Windows and Mac world, and over 20  managing and programming  the AS/400 and connections to the mainframe elsewhere.

I am not arguing that with great small staff and proper budget you can’t do what you describe. I am saying it is the exception not the rule.

Ask Woody exists to offer support to those in the levels below your well run IT shop. I support a lot of those people here on the Olympic Peninsula and know many others that also do so. I can say without equivocation that Windows is far more support needy than Apple. By far. I would not even bother having a business here if all my clients moved to Apple. Really. The issues are almost entirely unique to this crazy old operating system that has layers and layers of complexity, convoluted locations for simple tasks, and a tendency to break with very slight changes. I just do not see that happening on the Mac, and I’ve been living up here for 19 years.

I don’t blame this solely on Microsoft. It’s what they have done. They sold a generic OS to all comers, and this is the outcome of that decision. Apple chose a different way. They control the hardware and software. You pay more, you get a less finicky OS and computer.

Ask around. Ask your friends in your area about their experiences in small businesses with Windows. Then ask your friends using Macs.

I wish it weren’t so, Windows machines are cheap and getting cheaper, but time is money. Pay me now or pay me later.

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8string wrote:

I am saying it is the exception not the rule.

And I’m saying that it need not be the exception, and that it can be the rule.  Windows can indeed be tamed and locked down.  I am reminded of a newly hired Geologist I was training a few years ago.  He had been issued his laptop and wanted Google Maps on it, and tried to install it.  When it failed and he asked me why, I told him that only members of the Administrators group could install anything, and they were unlikely to install Google Maps.  He called our support line and asked to have Google Maps installed on his laptop.  He was told, “No”.

The corporate image was locked down.  Windows had been tweaked and trimmed to a fair-thee-well, and there were no other mods allowed.  The only failure points were hardware.  Perhaps Apple can come close to that, but not at that price point.

As I said in a previous reply, Windows was a stable platform upon which all of the important software could run reliably.  Apple simply was not in the equation primarily due to costs and secondarily due to the lack of necessary software.  Very little industrial strength control software is written for Apple.

8string wrote:

Really. The issues are almost entirely unique to this crazy old operating system that has layers and layers of complexity, convoluted locations for simple tasks, and a tendency to break with very slight changes.

bbearren wrote:

My point remains that Windows can indeed be tamed, locked down, and become simply a platform upon which the important stuff gets done.

When the OS is locked down, there are no “very slight changes”; there are no changes that are not pushed by corporate, and those pushed updates are for the software being run on Windows, not Windows updates.  Only sufficiently necessary security updates were allowed for Windows.

 

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Total cost of ownership: Mac versus PC in the enterprise

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lmacri, 8string, windbg

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hi great read.. Thank you very much for that. Just to be clear you don’t need this company’s product to do what they do. Microsoft tool set does include the ability to integrate Apple products  into their world without buying third-party products. I assume they have some other features that are worth getting.

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BBearen, I feel like your an admitted non-IT person mansplaining IT to me. Let me explain as someone who is in IT, a certified Microsoft consultant,  that Apple is included in Microsoft’s lockdown capabilities. They have an inclusive point of view at this point that if you were running their tools, you can include Apple and android devices in their lockdown capabilities so there is no difference from that point of view. Apple itself has business tools that can also integrate these types of capabilities. If you don’t have a windows environment.

as to your comments that the IT department would not let Google Maps  be loaded on a users machine. I just find that to be pathetic behavior by IT helpdesk. They have no idea what the user may need that to do his job. It’s a major product by a major company. there is no reason not to allow such a product to be loaded at the mill where I was helping out, yes, they had a basic Windows product suite install that was not ever changed, but it was clearly understood that many users had very wide ranges of products that they needed on their machines to do jobs. Trying to limit that software array is a fool’s errand that just drives users to go buy their own machines and bring them in and use them anyway.

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8string wrote:

BBearen, I feel like your an admitted non-IT person mansplaining IT to me.

Nope, I am an IT person, I just didn’t work in IT; I had a higher paying job as a geologist in ore control.

8string wrote:

Apple is included in Microsoft’s lockdown capabilities.

Yes, the company issues iPhones for everyone who needs a cell phone in their job duties, and those phones are indeed locked down.

8string wrote:

Apple itself has business tools that can also integrate these types of capabilities.

My former company (now Mosaic) uses several industry-specific software suites on a daily basis, some control software 24/7/365.  Not one of the companies who wrote that software ported it to Apple.  Not only would Apple hardware cost more, it would not be capable of running the very necessary software.

8string wrote:

I just find that to be pathetic behavior by IT helpdesk. They have no idea what the user may need that to do his job.

Nope.  They know exactly what every user needs for their job.  Mapping is prerequisite for open pit mining.  Company specific mapping software is part of the corporate Windows image, just not Google Maps.

8string wrote:

it was clearly understood that many users had very wide ranges of products that they needed on their machines to do jobs.

Phosphate mining and processing is very specific.  The software needs are very specific.  Every piece of software necessary to meet those specific needs, including number crunching and database access was included in the corporate Windows image, pre-installed and ready to go.

8string wrote:

Trying to limit that software array is a fool’s errand that just drives users to go buy their own machines and bring them in and use them anyway.

Nope.  No one was allowed to connect their personal machine to the corporate network.  Absent the login script present in the corporate Windows image, no personal PC could log in, and IT was absolutely not going to provide that script for a personal machine.  It was locked down tight.  For my purposes, I could use my own laptop, log into the the Exchange Server via WiFi, and complete my duties through email.  If I needed to connect to the corporate network for some reason, I could simply log in on a company PC no one was using at the time.  I rarely had that need.

Corporate IT worked for the company under very strict limitations.  They didn’t make policy, they followed policy.  When I say locked down, I do indeed mean locked down.  Yes, there were iPhones, but they too were locked down, and could only connect to the company network via WiFi, identified by IMEI.  They could make and take calls through regular cell networks.  And no, they would not support Android.

Understand that the company  had a global network, but never any problems with malware.  The network, which included workstations, PC’s, laptops, printers both desktop and fully functional all purpose printer/copier/email capable, was audited regularly.  There were no BSOD’s.  A black screen meant a hardware failure.

Apple simply was never an option.  Period.  “Coloring outside the lines” was not an option.  Period.  I retired from IMC Global in 2003.  In 2004 they merged with Cargill to become Mosaic.  I continued to work for Mosaic doing projects until May, 2019, when I finally fully retired.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Oh Ok. So you aren’t as you stated, “…not in IT”.You prove my point exactly in that you are describing what Microsoft themselves term, “Mid size to enterprise businesses” capable and willing to spend the highest license costs by Microsoft E5 and all the expensive tools Microsoft offers to do that. I know the Msft licensing world very well. It’s unfortunately expensive for SMBs to do the right thing. My mill of 300-400 people  would not even consider that. None of my non profits would either. None of my small businesses SMBs would either. Neither would they ever spend the money that it takes to do the corporate lockdowns you describe. No F****ing way would they. I wouldn’t want them to, because the support costs for a help desk would be a burden on me! (I am a single consultant). And from what I have seen, most SMBs either rely on an in house part time “Excel Guru” but someone with virtually no deep IT experience, or they hire those needs out to a local like me.

But I still stand with the fact that everything you said Windows could do, the iPhones and other devices could do cheaper for the vast array of small businesses. I run all sorts of Windows apps on Apple in a VM, so legacy apps are not a problem, but I totally understand that some legacy apps (written in languages now dead) are widely used in production environments like yours. These specific case uses are often not supported by IT, since they are one offs for specific depts, but maybe in your case they were.

It makes total sense for a company like yours to standardize on one set of machines (or at least one OS, because I doubt they only bought HP or Lenovo in this day and age) but SMBs rarely do,even when I beg them to. The marketing people use Macs, the ED or CIO wants a high end Windows machine, the sales people maybe an iPad or just their phone. And in the manufacturing company of 1000 machines I ran IT in the 90s, there was no way I was going to tell the engineering staff what machines to use. They would have laughed me out of their department. They used Sun and Mac and occassionally an early Windows or DOS machine. We no more could dictate to them as IT was seen as an annoyance to finding the right solution to their job. I doubt that has changed at all since then. I know the mill was the same way too. Mechanical Engineering did whatever they wanted. We simply managed their O365 use.

Anyway, thanks for the input so people can see what we in IT face, both in a perfect world like you claim you had, or the non perfect world I live in every day. But let me leave by saying that Microsoft is doing a very good job these days. M365 and SharePoint has been a great set of tools for my SMBs. And the security tools are great. no complaints here. Just make it cheaper. SMBs are now facing $100 an hour consulting costs even in small towns like mine. They are at the limit of what they will pay, and I often do a bit of work like answer questions for no charge. But all the consultants up here are worried about the squeeze on their ability to make money because insurance costs are up along with everything else.

One last thing. You should know your stats, in your mining business, that a single data point like yours does not prove the rule.

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8string wrote:

Oh Ok. So you aren’t as you stated, “…not in IT”.You prove my point exactly in that you are describing what Microsoft themselves term, “Mid size to enterprise businesses” capable and willing to spend the highest license costs by Microsoft E5 and all the expensive tools Microsoft offers to do that.

bbearren wrote:

I worked for a Fortune 500 mining company, but not in IT.

Of course they would use the tools available from Microsoft.  But they also use tools not provided by Microsoft.  For example, the login script that ran when any machine was powered up did not come from Microsoft.  Without that login script, there was positively no access to the network.

8string wrote:

But I still stand with the fact that everything you said Windows could do, the iPhones and other devices could do cheaper for the vast array of small businesses.

8string wrote:

I totally understand that some legacy apps (written in languages now dead) are widely used in production environments like yours.

Nope, and nope.  The production control software was not/is not written in languages now dead.  Those software packages were chosen because they are specifically written, and maintained, for the Windows platform.

bbearren wrote:

When the OS is locked down, there are no “very slight changes”; there are no changes that are not pushed by corporate, and those pushed updates are for the software being run on Windows, not Windows updates. Only sufficiently necessary security updates were allowed for Windows.

8string wrote:

It makes total sense for a company like yours to standardize on one set of machines (or at least one OS, because I doubt they only bought HP or Lenovo in this day and age)

Nope, again. When I retired they were using Dell, with the exception of printers and the furniture-sized printer/copier/collator/email machines.  They have likely had another hardware upgrade since I left (every ~3 years), and I don’t know what they are using now other than that the OEM was the lowest bidder and all iterations are specced by the company.  Phased out machines go to an electronics recycler.

8string wrote:

One last thing. You should know your stats, in your mining business, that a single data point like yours does not prove the rule.

bbearren wrote:

Windows can indeed be tamed.

bbearren wrote:

It’s all in knowing how.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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I don’t think you are hearing me. SMB clients do not have the budget to do what you say. Period. Buying computers, paying me to properly set them up for them, making sure they connect to M365, and that their SharePoint connections are all showing up in File Explorer, printer setup, etc. is all they want to spend.Takes me an hour on either machine.  My time to setup *and manage* Intune and other tools is just not going to happen with their limited budgets. They want me in and out quickly and to call for issues as they arise.  The extra money they pay me is for customizing SharePoint and frankly, fixing OneDrive sync problems on Windows machines.

Your assumption that I don’t know how to do scripting is sort of insulting. But frankly, with Microsoft 365, I rarely have to use scripts anymore for these clients.I haven’t needed to write a script in a long time. One big client I worked with had a man managing scripts (among other jobs)  but they were actually not needed, but the person who managed them didn’t want to hear that. So they stayed, helping him have a job until retirement. My gentle entrities to try new things were met with “we don’t have the budget or time” but he always seemed to spend an hour or two a day watching youtube videos on political issues he liked. So was that headcount a good use of money? I didn’t think so.

In comparison, your company, like the mill locally, likely had at least one IT manager who doubled as needed in other jobs, a  help desk person full time, one network/file server engineer, maybe a security specialist who also helped with networks, file servers, and desktop deployment at times, maybe an application or database analyst to manage the internal web sites and other application based tasks. At probably a minimum of $75k per person, (of course with the burdened overhead as well), your IT budget was more than any SMB would ever price out. Or maybe you out sourced all these jobs to a a 3rd party for even more money.

Recently, a small business I handled (cause I knew the principals) grew to needing a real IT staff. They were at 40 machines and 60 users and were at my limit of help desk calls etc. I helped them through finding a suitable IT org for them. The cost for 5x12hour support like you suggest, (with no special application support, just M365 system setup, security etc. ) was going to come in at around $3k a month. That was after negotiating down from $4500. A month. There is no way any of my clients with 5 to 20 users can expect to pay anything like that. My hourly keeps their costs under $1k a month, and often less.

I do all this because I am retired and like to help NGOs and other small businesses in my rural community. In the big urban centers, it’s likely worse.

Microsoft tools allow us to support both Windows, Apple and Android at a reasonable cost. So there is a level playing field. Yes, some industries have specific Windows (or Linux or Apple) applications they need to have. But since you retired, so many of these apps are going or have gone to the cloud. That’s why I can say that beyond that, Apple is a lot less to support over the life of the machine than the Windows machines are. I’m in the field doing this work weekly, so I think I have a better handle on the pulse of many businesses and not just one company in one locale.

 

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Intune now manages and controls iphones and ipads.

” For example, the login script that ran when any machine was powered up did not come from Microsoft”

What log in script?  Microsoft 365/Entra joined machines don’t need a log in script.

In June we will hit a point in time where it will be interesting to see what happens.  What is June?  The drop dead date that NO NEW versions of QuickBooks desktop will be sold.  Going forward it’s all QuickBooks online that works the same on both Apple and Windows.  If you want desktop QuickBooks you need to have a subscription.

Only crusty accountants complaining about online will be running QuickBooks desktop.

 

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Now then Apple needs to watch themselves as they are getting more “ho hum” release events.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Susan Bradley wrote:

What log in script? Microsoft 365/Entra joined machines don’t need a log in script.

What Microsoft 365?  What Entra?  Office was on the servers at each location.  There were Exchange Servers at each site (we each had a 10GB limit on email storage).  Office was not installed on the individual workstations/PC’s/laptops.  No OneDrive, no cloud, they had (and still have) their own cloud.  Everything is kept in-house.

The script was written into bootmgr back in the day.  It’s now written into the BCD Store.  It runs when the machine is powered on.  I could plug an Ethernet cable into my laptop, but I could not log into the network—no script on my personal laptop.

QuickBooks?  Nope.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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None of that is sustainable these days.  Especially not a 10 gig mailbox

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Susan Bradley wrote:

None of that is sustainable these days. Especially not a 10 gig mailbox

I’m going to assume that you are unfamiliar with open-pit mining.  Server farms and a mainframe do all the heavy lifting, because all the pertinent information is in the form of humongous databases.  Email is simply not heavily used for anything other than communication; not for workflow.  Weekly and monthly material balances were on the mainframe and could be printed from there.

That which occurred yesterday and how it related to the mine plan and production forecast resides today in the relevant database.  Production planning for next month/year are in the relevant database.  Work orders, parts orders from the warehouse to facilitate repairs go through the mainframe, which keeps repair history/warehouse inventory/restocking in the relevant database.

Tomorrow’s planning is discussed in face-to-face meetings, not via email.  It’s easy to stay below 10GB on the Exchange Servers—delete the old stuff.  If you need to reference that information, just pull it from the relevant database.  Before I got into ore control I was a maintenance supervisor, and before that an operations supervisor.  I rarely needed to use email for anything.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Very happy to read that you are a CPA, being myself a Canadian CPA (retired).

I am a registered member of Askwoody since the Fred Langa period. Your weekly writings are most useful to me even though I use Windows 10 through Parallels only for the TurboTax application on my MacBook Pro (Sonoma).

I rely on your comments and refer to your writings every week.

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BBearen don’t know what it is you’re  trying to prove here. many of us have worked in similar large environments. that’s not what this is all about.

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8string wrote:

BBearen don’t know what it is you’re trying to prove here.

bbearren wrote:

8string wrote:

I would say that Apple is expensive only if you don’t value your time.

bbearren wrote:

My point remains that Windows can indeed be tamed, locked down, and become simply a platform upon which the important stuff gets done … It’s all in knowing how.

A Fortune 500 mining company could certainly afford to buy only Apple machines.  That company has chosen Windows machines.  They don’t have OS issues.  They don’t have an expansive IT staff.  My point remains that Windows can indeed be tamed, locked down, and become simply a platform upon which the important stuff gets done.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

Reply | Quote

Susan Bradley wrote:

None of that is sustainable these days. Especially not a 10 gig mailbox

Not to beat a dead horse (but I will, anyway), I had a text chat with KF today, the chief geologist at Mosaic from whom I would receive my prospecting projects and ore control vacation relief assignments before I retired.

KF: “We did some reworking of roles. I’m now responsible for the geos (geologists), hydros (hydro-geologist), (ore) reserves, and (prospect) drilling (from which reserves are calculated).” Parentheses are mine.

Me: “Has Mosaic upgraded to Windows 11 yet, or are they still on Windows 10? I remember the complaints about my too-big pictures, is there still a 10GB limit on email?”

KF: “We are still on 10. We use teams now to store the Geo reports so size doesn’t affect that part anymore.”

This particular Windows environment is still sustainable these days, even the 10GB email limit.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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As someone who doesn’t support large environments I don’t know what you are trying to prove.  The limit on Exchange accounts is 100GB. My *experience* is that one does not want to be managing 10GB inboxes and larger for a variety of reasons. Have I supported bigger ones? Sure. an ED I supported was at 50GBs. She was experiencing all sorts of odd behavior. She wouldn’t use Archiving. I tried to convince her to modify her behavior but she just wasn’t interested. The old outlook PSTs were (are) known for corruption and anyone who has supported Outlook has used the Microsoft repair tools over and over again. I’ve also seen a President of a company I supported with a huge PST, over 90 GBs, and his Outlook routinely freezing up as it was supposedly syncing his inbox. We swapped computers, traced the network, monitored the server, got Microsoft support on the line for weeks, did everything and could not find out why he was experiencing extremely long sync  download times, when no one else in the org was experiencing them. We finally moved a ton of emails to an archive reducing his 20 years of email to a manageable 3 years and surprise, his Outlook started working fine again. I don’t know why technically, but something was corrupted or just out of control. This ‘support’ cost the company hundreds of dollars in my time and others in the organization. He could have bought two more computers for what it cost us to troubleshoot this stupid issue that I have never seen with Gmail, or any other email. My point is that doing something because it’s possible does not make it a best practice. No matter what OS you are using.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office365/servicedescriptions/exchange-online-service-description/exchange-online-limits#mailbox-storage-limits

 

Al Bergstein

Certified Microsoft Consultant

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8string wrote:

My *experience* is that one does not want to be managing 10GB inboxes and larger for a variety of reasons.

Thus the 10GB limit imposed on everyone.  IT didn’t manage anyone’s inbox, it was up to each individual user to trim their own inbox.  An automated email was sent to anyone who was approaching that 10GB limit, the crux of which was, “Delete stuff!”  There were no options.

And you have listed examples of why it is indeed very practical to place a 10GB limit on inbox size and hold the individual user responsible for remaining within that size limit.

bbearren wrote:

Email is simply not heavily used for anything other than communication; not for workflow.

8string wrote:

I don’t know what you are trying to prove.

bbearren wrote:

My point remains that Windows can indeed be tamed, locked down, and become simply a platform upon which the important stuff gets done.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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That may work in some industries with some people, but I can point to people on this very platform that have pst’s from when Ronald Reagan was in the White House.  Just because you can do it, doesn’t mean that everyone can.

And don’t get me started on how people can consider the recycle folder a long term storage location for emails.

Bottom line we all work in different ways.

 

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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bbearren

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Susan Bradley wrote:

Just because you can do it, doesn’t mean that everyone can.

Indeed.

Susan Bradley wrote:

Bottom line we all work in different ways.

Exactly; the green in my signature line.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Susan Bradley wrote:

And don’t get me started on how people can consider the recycle folder a long term storage location for emails.

Same with the downloads folder.

Desktop Asus TUF X299 Mark 1, CPU: Intel Core i7-7820X Skylake-X 8-Core 3.6 GHz, RAM: 32GB, GPU: Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti 4GB. Display: Four 27" 1080p screens 2 over 2 quad.

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Susan Bradley wrote: “Windows is an affordable and accessible platform for the vast majority of us, notwithstanding its annoyances and privacy concerns. In most respects, it can be tamed. The Apple ecosystem is expensive.”

Hmm. During my working life I used Windows at home. It seemed like not a quarter would go by without me having to arrange a home visist by an IT geek to fix one or another problems associated with my desktop. After I stopped working I switched to the Apple ecosystem. In the past eight years I’ve never had to arrange for a home visit by an IT geek. The few problems I’ve had were resolved via a call to AppleCare. Maybe the Apple ecosystem is expensive. That being so I’ve more than recouped the additional costs.

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