The good and bad of Win10 Fall Creators Update

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Nice interview from Ken Mingis with my long-time friend Preston Gralla. Computerworld. Bonus points if you know when Preston and I first bumped into e
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I feel for Preston, really hard to get excited about these updates. It really reminds me of when Firefox started their rapid releases. Kind of that same fear of dread of what won’t work anymore. But at the same time, nothing really to brag about either.

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woody

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OK.  You first bumped into each other on an island in Southern Thailand.

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anonymous wrote:

You first bumped into each other on an island in Southern Thailand

Good guess, but Preston and I go way, way back – even before my move to Phuket in 2000.

NetDef wrote:

Going to guess you two met/first collaborated sometime around 1995 or 96, while advising on Underground Guide to Windows 95 for Scot.

Closer! Farther back than that, though.

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Going to guess you two met/first collaborated sometime around 1995 or 96, while advising on Underground Guide to Windows 95 for Scot.

 

~ Group "Weekend" ~

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Ok, we got the good and the bad.  How about the ugly?

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Yes, there is SERIOUS ugly here.

And – from one who sits in front of a computer all day and well into the night, I can say that it’s the kind of ugly that makes Windows harder to use.

The Windows 10 out-of-box (lack of) theme includes:

• Flat, lifeless title bars.
  
• The thinnest possible border (1 pixel).
  
• A too-light drop shadow around windows.
  
• Window controls like buttons and scroll bars have no style, and so it’s harder to find them visually.

All of these conspire to make it difficult to visually differentiate windows from other windows behind. And make no mistake, when you use Windows – really USE it – this kind of thing happens – pop-ups pop up, you fill your screen with stuff that overlaps, etc.

And there’s an ongoing additional burden of having to distract yourself to find a scroll bar thumb or pushbutton.

It is NOT natural to resize windows by grabbing something invisible outside the edge, and it’s frustrating to see the edge of a window below but not be able to grab it because of the invisible border of the one above getting in the way.

This stuff matters because when you’re working at the limits of your abilities, you need 100% of your attention on the problems you’re trying to solve; Windows needs to fade into the background and facilitate complex work the best it can!

For the past couple of days I’ve given Windows 10 v1709 my complete attention, by making my VM go full-screen across all three of my monitors. I have to say, it works well enough – I’ve only found one or two things that aren’t completely compatible as compared to my host system Win 8.1 setup – but there is an ongoing additional usability burden.

Up to v1703 I had a nicely re-themed desktop. Since I still use almost exclusively desktop applications (Apps so far are useless to me) I had achieved a very nice, clean appearance that resurrected all the best parts of the Windows Aero theme of the past, and even improved on some. This was how I viewed v1703:

The re-themers will no doubt master v1709 – probably about the time it goes to whatever the equivalent of CBB status is, which also happens to be when there are only months of life left in the product. The release cadence is TOO RAPID to get into a groove where real work gets done.

-Noel

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dononline, NetDef, Ascaris, Elly, Rock, RamRod, Cybertooth

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I always enjoy your thoughtful posts Noel and that screenshot of your productive desktop is great.

I too like a no nonsense desktop with no flashing alerts, “modern” apps and other silly distracting items. I like to actually concentrate when I work and use my machine to do productive things.

I upgraded to 1709 but I am just so sick of spending literally days of my time tweaking all this stuff to make Windows how it was or should be!

Everyone keeps mentioning Shutup10 but has anyone used:

https://getwpd.com/

to “tame” Windows?

 

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Noel Carboni

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MrJimPhelps wrote:

If you don’t yet have the latest version of Windows 10, you eventually will.

No I won’t. I’ll have Linux Mint.

Beat me to it.  I was going to say something like “Don’t bet on it.”

Prepare for a long tangent.

You know, I keep hearing people talk about how Linux does this or that badly compared to Windows, and sometimes it does (though far less often than in years past).  Recently, though, I’ve been trying to nail down my Bluetooth setup on my laptop and my desktop.  I’ve never bothered before, but I got tired of swapping my speaker cord from one to the other.  I use both a lot, often at the same time, and the laptop speakers are not that great (as is the norm), but even more importantly, they’re too quiet even at max volume.  Linux lets me set the volume to 130% or so, and at that volume they’re pretty usable even when there is ambient noise, but Windows doesn’t offer that option, so I would just plug in my speakers.   Then it dawned on me that both my PCs have Bluetooth, and while I had never used it before, I thought that since Apple phones and now some others are using BT instead of 1/8″ plug/jacks like the one I keep switching, it should be a snap to transmit the sound from one PC to the other.

Well… dream on, I guess.  With the “generic Bluetooth” driver from Windows 8.1 on the desktop and the Toshiba Bluetooth Stack and driver on the laptop, I couldn’t get them to pair.  The desktop would pop up a message “tap here to set up Laptop” when I sent the request from the laptop, which is a bit presumptuous given that 99% of people who saw that message would only end up with a fingerprint on their non-touch monitor if they tried that.

When I did “tap” the little box with my little white arrow, it insisted on bringing up more Metro nonsense, which is not permitted on my PC.  “Catastrophic failure,” said the dialog box.  So I restarted explorer.exe, which reverses the effect of Metro Killer, and then it did go to the hideous, inappropriate (on a desktop) display of the Metro version of Bluetooth, and said “That didn’t work” and “Try removing the device and reconnecting.”

Don’t talk to me like we’re friends, Windows.  Don’t tell me “Hi” and “We’re setting things up for you.”  It’s creepy.

I tried pairing from the desktop end first, and that worked, once I figured out that this PIN they were both asking for and telling me to look up in my device’s manual is whatever I say it is, as long as I enter it the same way on both, but that didn’t result in the audio sink profile being enabled on the laptop (to send the sound to the desktop).

I tried the Atheros Bluetooth “suite” (it’s hardly that) and driver, but it still insisted on going to Metro for the PIN, which would always fail when initiated from the laptop. I got it working somehow under that configuration, but it was annoying… I could not figure out how to get some stupid media-player looking thing from popping up (from Atheros) every time they paired, and while I am certain I could figure it out, I was getting tired of figuring things out.

Then one day, it stopped working.  I don’t know what changed, but it quit, so it was back to figuring things out.  By then I was rested and ready to figure things out once again.

I think at some point I tried removing Toshiba BTS from the laptop and using the straight Windows stack, and I can’t remember why it didn’t cut it for me, but it must not have since I didn’t stick with it.  It’s not a long-term solution I will accept anyway if I have to disable Metro blocking; doing that is all that permits me to countenance using Win 8.1 in the first place.

I ended up putting Toshiba BTS back on the laptop and also on the desktop, which allowed the two to pair seamlessly… but getting to a point that I could actually hear the sound required finding the “Bluetooth Microphone” device in the sound devices (this on the desktop) and checking the box for “listen to this device,” then setting the audio sampling at 44.1KHz/2 channel, and then I was able to hear the sound from the laptop.  I never had to do that when I had it working with the Atheros driver, and it feels kinda hacky and not quite right.

Every time the two pair now, the Toshiba BTS pops up a message telling me that the Bluetooth audio device is not the default device, and pops up the Windows dialog where I am supposed to fix it.  Only thing is that the only Bluetooth device showing there is the Bluetooth microphone, which is indeed set as the default sound input device.  I figured out that it wants me to set the Bluetooth audio out (faux headphones) as the default audio device, but it’s not there– and this makes sense, given that this PC is the one the sound is being sent to.  It’s like it wants me to create a grand loop, with each PC streaming sound to the other.  In frustration, I removed Toshiba BTS and reinstalled the Atheros suite.

I decided to try it in Linux.  After a brief web search, I learned that it would be good to try Blueman (not a group, but a program), which was in the Mint repo.  Installed that on both PCs and told it to connect the laptop to the desktop using the audio sink service, and immediately the laptop’s sound was coming from the desktop.  No muss, no fuss– there it is, thankyouverymuch.

I tried streaming from the Linux laptop to the desktop (had to re-pair them, of course), and that worked too.  I tried it in reverse, streaming the desktop audio to the laptop, and it worked fine.  I even charged my old Android tablet and connected it to first, then the other PC via BT… seamless audio streaming every time.

Back in Windows land, I tried to get Atheros BT on the desktop to pair with the tablet.  It wouldn’t do it.  The laptop (still using Toshiba BTS) would, but then the desktop also stopped wanting to pair with the laptop (I guess it was miffed at being spurned for Linux, if even for just a couple of hours).  So back the Toshiba went… for all its faults, at least it worked, even if I had to use the microphone kludge and put up with it ordering me to select an audio device that doesn’t exist every time either of the PCs comes out of standby (when they reconnect).

Surely, there has to be a better way in Windows.  There’s a program/stack for BT called Widcomm, which has been bought by Broadcom and subsequently restricted to Broadcom devices.  I decided to try it anyway, thinking that since the generic BT driver works with most BT devices, perhaps the BC driver would work with mine if I force installed it, but the installer I downloaded wouldn’t even start.  It would show the spinning wheel of please wait mouse arrow for about 300ms, then exit.

Then there’s BlueSoleil, a commercial program that goes for $27 each PC, which they’re entitled to ask for, but it sticks in my craw having to pay for something that I in effect already paid for (as part of Windows AND my motherboard/laptop, each of which came with their own suite of software that’s supposed to work, but only kinda does).

I didn’t start the trial yet; I may end up there, but I am not there yet.  It would be cheaper to get new Intel BT MiniPCIE cards (I have a nifty adapter to allow that to plug into a PCIE slot on the desktop, with the antennae external like it was a regular desktop wifi) and use Intel ProSet at no extra charge… I haven’t seen their BT software, but I know it exists (’cause I accidentally downloaded it once when I meant to get the wifi version), and that wifi software is what I use now on my laptop in lieu of the terrible Metro Windows version.

Why can’t Windows just be simple and “just work” like Linux?  Heh.  This is not the first time that Windows has given me fits while Linux just did what I asked of it.  If there was just a Windows version of Blueman, that would be perfect.  I wonder if it would work on the Linux subsystem in 10 now (doubtful, as it would rely on GTK+ and Xorg).

 

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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@ Ascaris

I think M$-Windows are not very good at synch-ing Bluetooth devices to multi-computers likely because there are not many users using this feature. IOW, M$-Windows will usually only develop features and apps that are popular or have many users or are in high demand. That is why M$-Windows is the dominant desktop OS even though it is a non-free OS = users have to pay to run Windows. That is also why M$ have dropped the not-very-popular Surface RT, Windows Mobile and X-Box Kinect devices.

Free Linux is a world of idealist tech-geeks who may even develop obscure features and apps that are not-very-popular and which are unavailable for Windows. Hence, Blueman for Linux.

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Ascaris

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For every story where Windows messes up Bluetooth pairing and connecting, I can find one or two stories where Linux with Blueman or any of several other  plugins, fails but Windows 10 succeeds. I have a Microsoft Signature Bluetooth 4.1 keyboard and mouse which behave like that. It really depends on the hardware, the Bluetooth version, whether “green” features are enabled (devices sleep when not active) and which exact PC or device hardware and drivers are present, as well as (sometimes) the entire networking stack.

As I say, I’ve had devices which work better with Linux, and devices which work best in Windows 10. Currently I am not using Bluetooth or Widi/Miracast/Wireless HDMI, but have direct cable connections for all my monitors and devices. Less hassle and fewer moving parts.

-- rc primak

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Hey Noel, I see you are also a Beyond Compare user.  I’ve been using that program for years, I love it!

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Noel Carboni

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I’m sure Windows 10 users appreciate your post.

Do you have an update about the October patches for Windows 7 users?  When do you expect to move to MS-DEFCON 3?

 

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FakeNinja

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It is funny we talk about being “a worthwhile upgrade” when there is not much choice about upgrading medium term, except maybe if you use the skip a version trick.

But, do I really want to be excited about Windows ? Not anymore, I would prefer just not to be annoyed.

Good analysis. Edge started from a really a good idea that was poorly executed : simpler, faster, safer browsing experience and compatibility with web standards. Playing me too on everything from Google is not going to work for Microsoft. They never succeeded at that. They not only don’t differentiate themselves by, say getting the business from privacy conscious users and kill Firefox in passing, they just chase the same market as Google. Maybe they bet their long term integration with all the Microsoft services while provide more value in the eyes of many users who don’t care about privacy, but they are far from there yet, as the author said, Apple is way ahead with this, plus Apple seems to care more about your privacy. They add things to reduce some of the privacy invading features on demand, they explain their privacy policy more clearly, they say they don’t sell your information to third parties, etc. To which extent it is comforting and protecting your privacy in reality might not be that clear, but at least you perceive an effort to manage this situation instead of a “let’s just reset privacy settings randomly during updates” attitude.

 

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Elly, Noel Carboni

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AlexEiffel wrote:

… excited about Windows … I would prefer just not to be annoyed.

Being brutally honest, something in me still gets a bit excited when a new system is released – I guess it’s from all those decades where real improvements were made – but that same corner of my personality is also being disappointed every 6 months when there’s no real substance to be had. Who here really needs Apps?

And yes, like you I would really, REALLY prefer not to be annoyed at the many things I have to tweak to make the new system even as useful as that which I already had.

So far, some things that I have discovered / been annoyed at this time around…

• It’s a bit harder to stop it from being chatty online.
• The out-of-box (lack of) theme is awful (as usual).
• I’ve sensed some kind of slowdown w/regard to multi-tasking (e.g., Visual Studio builds seem to take longer).
• There are a few glitches in Win32. We’re looking into a new problem for example with keyboard hooks now.
• 3rd party tools that use undocumented APIs are broken. Again.
• I’ve had to leave the Apps installed this time because I couldn’t achieve a configuration that would properly complete a Windows Update if they are removed.

-Noel

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AlexEiffel, NetDef, flackcatcher, Elly

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It’s weird, I get a little bit of this feeling of excitment very deep down too, but it doesn’t even go to the point of me installing the software to try it before it fades into the naah, I will be mad again about the things they changed. I distantly looked at 1703 and just thought I will wait for next one and skip this one. End of any excitment.

Thanks for sharing the results of your tests, Noel. It is very enlightnening. You out words on the experience I had regarding the UI on 10. I didn’t know why and I am not particular that much with esthetics (I run classic theme on 7 to be able to do serious work so I am impermeable to ugliness), but I kept havin issues using 10 that I don’t have. the kind of issues you wouldn’t really notice that much, resizing didn’t work that well, you donlt exactly know why, but you loose a bit of time here and there, and unconsciously becomes frustrated. I had to redo many operations a few times sometimes because, they didn’t work that well. I also had display issues when selecting on Office 2016. Some parts would not appear as selected, very annoying.  Probably happened after some update. I manually updated the video card, then I try to work and Windows stopped me for updates. It is so aggressive the way it pulls you out of what you are doing violently to force you to look for updates. I am not even the kind of guy who waits to install patches, why do you need to be so aggressive Windows? Can i just finish my teamviewer session before you pull me out like that? I have something to fix quickly, no time for your update! Maybe  a bit later, calm down, can’t you see I was in the middle of a sentence typing? What a disdain for someone who works with his computer!

 

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Noel Carboni

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Noel Carboni wrote:

Being brutally honest, something in me still gets a bit excited when a new system is released

This is the first W10 version I don’t even feel like installing on my computer – I did update my wife’s tablet, my mom’s PC – since they’ll have to be updated anyway, but didn’t find anything exciting enough to do it on my W8.1 system (I have a separate HDD for this). I didn’t get excited about any of the Linux distros I tested this year as well… Guess that I’ll just stick to 8.1 for a while.

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Mozilla is chasing after Google (web extensions) & Microsoft (an uglier interface*). Who needs a faster running robotic square electroplated chrome fox-ish browser?

*I just noticed that the Persona themes are considered a legacy class object, that kind of rapid interface customization was (is) unique and a very good design choice.

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If you don’t yet have the latest version of Windows 10, you eventually will.

No I won’t. I’ll have Linux Mint.

Computerworld’s Windows expert, Preston Gralla, details what to look for – and look out for – in the Fall Creators Update.

I thought Woody Leonhard was their Windows expert!

On the bright side, it sounds like Microsoft is finally tightening up on security. I suspect that that is a key reason for all of the telemetry, so that Microsoft will know (and continually learn) how to better protect and secure Windows 10. If that is their reason, then it is understandable that they wouldn’t want to give details about what they are collecting.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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flackcatcher, lurks about, Elly

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Hi Woody.

I just wanted to say that ANY old desktop or laptop PC that has the ancient Broadcom 440x 10/100 Integrated Controller LAN device using Windows 10 should upgrade to the Win10 v1709 Fall Creators Update IMMEDIATELY! I’ve tested the Win10 Fall Creators Update on my mom’s old Dell Inspiron e1405 laptop with the Broadcom 440x LAN device activated in the Dell BIOS a few days ago and the 1709 release works fine unlike the v1703 Creators Update first released in April 2017, which could not handle that old Broadcom integrated LAN device.

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When doing Feature Upgrades, I usually just replace any Microsoft Drivers which are not functioning well with manufacturer OEM drivers, even if those are older version numbers. The one exception was my NUC’s Realtek audio driver. There Microsoft had better compatibility with version 1703. On my tablet, I had to download and reinstall the whole SoC driver package, as the upgrade had replaced each individual driver with Microsoft versions, which do not work on SoC hardware. Your mom’s experiences may be in this same vein, although the system is not SoC design.

-- rc primak

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