System/Data Recovery – Clone, Image, vs. Backup

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We recently ran into a problem with one of our Windows 10 workstations and ultimately chose to reinstall Windows 10 using the PC’s USB recovery drive. We then spent several hours updating Windows, reinstalling the system’s software, and recovering more than 65,000 data files that we had copied onto an external drive.

Once the misbehaving system was returned to operation, we cloned the C Drive onto an external SSD and put it away for safekeeping.

Now, in the event of a catastrophic failure, we simply need to swap out the malfunctioning drive and replace it with its clone and the PC will become operational in less than ½ hour plus the time it takes to update Windows and to recover its data files.

During the process we had extensive discussions related to Windows recovery that ranged from using the Windows Update Troubleshooter, Clean booting the system, and/or systematically copying data files onto an external drive as well more aggressive approaches including periodic cloning, imaging, and using backup software such as Macrium Reflect and Acronis True Image.

The key question moving forward is what is the most productive way to preserve and recover our data files – periodically running the Windows System Image Manager, simply copying the directories that contain the files onto an external drive, or using backup software such as Acronis or Macrium?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

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I use Acronis to create full image (full pc/all partitions) backup twice a month and daily incremental backups in between.
I can restore/copy any file, folder , partition from the image, or full PC restore.

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Teach22Fish, Kathy Stevens

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You did some variation of this question here:

https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/cloning-vs-backing-up-a-computer/

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Our thinking on system recovery has evolved since the December 2020 post that focused on cloning vs. backing up of a computer.

We have now had to recover two workstations – one in December 2020 and another in February 2022 and have become more sensitive to the frailty of Windows 10 and/or solid state drives and the need to optimize recovery times.

 

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In my humble opinion, operating system backup and data backup require separate strategies.  Two drives in the computer, one for the OS and programs and the other for data allow both to be managed separately.  An image or clone once a month (or after major OS or program updates) of the OS drive and daily (or faster) backup or syncing of the data drive.  This also requires either the windows documents folder to be moved to the data drive or not be used.

With this setup, you would have replaced the OS drive with the clone or installed a new drive and restored the image, maybe had a few updates, and been done.  Your data would not have been effected by the OS drive failure.  A failure of the data drive would have entailed replacing the drive and copying your data backup to the new drive.

 

Win 11 home - 24H2
Attitude is a choice...Choose wisely

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Kathy Stevens, dg1261

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I too keep operating system and data on separate drives.  I use Robocopy to copy data files and only copy files that have been added or changed so after the first backup the following backups are very quick.  This prevents duplicate files and once a file is changed the prior unchanged version is still in the backups.  Any file in the backup is easily accessed and editable without having to load an image.  It also creates a log of the copy process to check if you want to.
I use Windows to make a backup image of the operating system drive.  I store monthly images that go back at least a year.   The whole process uses Windows and no third party backup software.  I have the system setup to run backups automatically.  The only manual task I do now is move the image file to prevent being deleted when Windows makes the next image file.
This link is to a PDF file that detailed instruction of how to do this. The site is a free hosting site for my files so you might get a popup ad when you go to download. Just close it. It doesn’t interfere with the download.
Use Windows for Automatic Backup System

HTH, Dana:))

HTH, Dana:))

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WCHS, Kathy Stevens, dg1261, mledman

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I agree wholeheartedly with mledman and Drcard. I’ve been making the same arguments and advocating for separate data partitions for over 30 years. (My original IBM PC 5150B, still sitting on a shelf behind me, dual-booted two DOS 3.3 partitions on a 20 MB hard drive with a separate D partition for data.)

I’m so adamant about this I even put my arguments into video form here.

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mledman, Kathy Stevens

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The problems with the 2 drives / separate data disk is that some data is stored in the user profile directory – mail programs are a particular culprit, but not the only ones, browser bookmarks are also stored there. Moving the profile / mail data to the other disk is more hassle than is warranted IMO.

Given your system I would install a NAS and use its backup client to make backups of all the machines. This gives you consistency, makes it easy to add new machines and provides ransomware protection (the backup folders are not accessible by the PCs). You can also backup at intervals during the day.
The NAS can be backed up and the backup stored offsite.

One NAS is cheaper than a bunch of disks to backup the individual PCs and you don’t have to remember to connect the disk to backup / remove it afterward / store it with the correct label etc.

cheers, Paul

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mledman, Kathy Stevens

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I think what’s best depends upon how many PCs and the user. The NAS is a good choice for businesses with clients, but the vast number of individual users with multiple PCs on a home or small business network the swapping external drives is best. NAS are not cheap, most average users don’t know how to set one up, and they require setup of the NAS firewall to protect it. This is knowledge many individual users don’t have and will be a “hassle” for them.

The problems with the 2 drives / separate data disk is that some data is stored in the user profile directory – mail programs are a particular culprit, but not the only ones, browser bookmarks are also stored there. Moving the profile / mail data to the other disk is more hassle than is warranted IMO.

I keep all my emails on the data drive and not on the operating system drive. I use Outlook with IMAP and download my emails I keep. The “hassle” is a simple one line symlink command which is easier to write than the commands for the automatic backup.

One NAS is cheaper than a bunch of disks to backup the individual PCs

I can buy four 6TB external drives for less than a NAS, not including the disks needed to backup the NAS.

I have 5 PCs on my home network and a NAS would be more hassle and cost than the Windows system. The key issue to me is accessibility to the backups. I rarely reinstall an image, mainly due to HDD failure; but, I access my data backups quite often. Being able to access the backup data file quickly and directly is a biggie for me.

I agree for a large number PCs the NAS is the better option, but consider it way overkill and a lot more hassle for home and small businesses. IMO most home and small business users do not have knowledge and training to set up and protect a NAS unit.

I think both options are good solutions. It all depends on the number of PCs and the users knowledge which is best for each set up.

Dana:))

HTH, Dana:))

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cdean88, wavy, mledman, Kathy Stevens

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Paul T wrote:

The problems with the 2 drives / separate data disk is that some data is stored in the user profile directory – mail programs are a particular culprit, but not the only ones, browser bookmarks are also stored there. Moving the profile / mail data to the other disk is more hassle than is warranted IMO.

These are all one-and-done tasks you’re talking about.  It doesn’t have to be re-established every time the PC is booted.  I use Microsoft 365 Outlook for my email, my Outlook data files are on a completely separate drive from my OS, and has been running that way for a few years, now.

And by using multiple drives and partitioning, I can restore my Windows OS partition in under six minutes without any problems with my data or settings.  The “hassle” is truly not much of a hassle, and a six-minute restore certainly beats several hours to accomplish the same thing.  Several hours to restore a workstation would be the equivalent of setting up about twenty workstations to a six-minute recovery state.

Kathy Stevens wrote:

We have now had to recover two workstations – one in December 2020 and another in February 2022 and have become more sensitive to the frailty of Windows 10 and/or solid state drives and the need to optimize recovery times.

Twice would be enough time to setup about forty workstations for a six-minute recovery.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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mledman, Kathy Stevens

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Kathy Stevens wrote:

We then spent several hours updating Windows, reinstalling the system’s software, and recovering more than 65,000 data files that we had copied onto an external drive.

I use multiple drives, partitioning, and automatic (via Task Scheduler) drive imaging and data copying to avoid just such an extreme recovery necessity.  I can recover my OS in under 6 minutes.  I use TeraByte’s Image for Windows for my drive imaging.  It’s a Hardened Windows approach.

I have a DIY NAS running a motherboard-based RAID 10 array with four 4TB drives for 7.2 TB of storage, easily upgraded simply by swapping out to larger capacity drives.  It was 5.5 TB until my last upgrade a couple of years ago.

I have no experience with Macrium Reflect or Acronis True Image, as I have never had a reason to try another imaging software.  Image for Windows has not let me down in two decades, and a six minute restore is plenty quick enough for me.

Admittedly, I’m not riding herd on a bunch of workstations in a business environment, but if I were, it would be very, very similar to my home network.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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mledman, Kathy Stevens

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Kathy Stevens wrote:

We have now had to recover two workstations – one in December 2020 and another in February 2022 and have become more sensitive to the frailty of Windows 10 and/or solid state drives and the need to optimize recovery times.

It’s good to know your recovery process works!  What part of the process took the most time?

Win 11 home - 24H2
Attitude is a choice...Choose wisely

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The cause for our need to recover Windows 10 was the repeated failure to install the February Windows 10 patch “2022-02 Cumulative Update for Windows 10 Version 21H2 for x64-based Systems (KB5010342)”.

After repeated attempts to resolve the issue we decided to reinstall windows on the HP ENVY Desktop. During the system recovery KB5010342 installed properly.

Prior to the recovery we ran the Western Digital Dashboard and Western Digital Data LifeGuard Diagnostics apps to make sure that the problem was not with the computer including its 2 TB SSD that we were using as Drive C.  Follow the link for a full discussion of the recovery.

https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/ms-defcon-5-a-very-quiet-february/

In short, the steps taken to recover the PC included:

• Reinstalling Windows from a HP recovery USB stick;
• Updating windows;
• Reinstalling and updating software;
• Downloading document, downloads, and pictures from an external backup drive;
• Importing Outlook .pst files from an external backup drive; and
• Tweaking Windows.

Time involved:

• Total recovery elapse time about 10 hours,
• Recovery of Windows using HP USB recovery media about 15 to 20 minutes,
• Updating Windows 10 several hours,
• Reinstalling software about two hours,
• Total time at keyboard about three hours,
• Biggest problems – reactivating ESET Internet Security and recovering Outlook 2016 contacts and calendar.

 

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If I followed correctly, the Acronis backup created just prior to installing the January updates was not tried.  Restoring this image might have allowed the February cumulative update to install (not guaranteed).  If successful, reinstalling software would have been avoided.  ESET might have stayed activated and recovering Outlook 2016 contacts and calendar would depend on where they were stored.

A spare computer would allow safe testing of different recovery processes.

Win 11 home - 24H2
Attitude is a choice...Choose wisely

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Kathy Stevens, Cybertooth

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Two questions.

1. We cloned the Windows 10 C drive to an external hard drive. Now when we plug the external cloned drive into a USB port Windows Explorer does not recognize the drive.  How do we gain access to the external drive to format it and create a new clone?

 

2. If we make an image of the C drive, how do we recover the image in the event of a system failure?

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Kathy Stevens wrote:

How do we gain access to the external drive to format it and create a new clone?

Use the software you created the clone with (Acronis?)

Kathy Stevens wrote:

If we make an image of the C drive, how do we recover the image in the event of a system failure?

Boot the computer with the recovery media you have already created (Acronis?), connect the drive with the image and follow the prompts.

Practicing on a spare computer would allow risk free testing.

Win 11 home - 24H2
Attitude is a choice...Choose wisely

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Cybertooth

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We booted the computer with the external drive attached, opened Acronis True Image for Western Digital, went to tools, selected Clone Disk, went through the cloning setup steps, and selected the external drive (containing an earlier clone) as the target disk. Acronis wiped the external disk clean and then created a new cloned copy of the C drive.

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mledman

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If we make an image of the C drive, how do we recover the image in the event of a system failure?

Refer to my posting above #2429426

The PDF download (Use Windows for Automatic Backup System) Section 4 has detailed instructions on how to restore an image to the drive.

Note: One small side effect to restoring an image created by Windows. Since you will restore to a new drive, the drive has to be as big as the last drive (even if the installed Windows used on a portion of the older drive).

Occasionally when restoring to a larger drive Windows will not recognize the rest of the drive. If this happens, post back and I’ll tell you how to fix that.

HTH, Dana:))

HTH, Dana:))

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Kathy Stevens

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Kathy Stevens wrote:

If we make an image of the C drive, how do we recover the image in the event of a system failure?

You should run the created recovery USB in order to recover an image.
You can also open the image directly from Windows and restore any file, folder, partitions…providing the PC is functioning.

(image .tib backup opened in Windows)

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Kathy Stevens

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Kathy Stevens wrote:

Now when we plug the external cloned drive into a USB port Windows Explorer does not recognize the drive

The implication is that the clone is not valid.
Can you see the disk in Disk Manager (Win R, diskmgmt.msc)? What does it show?

cheers, Paul

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To briefly summarize what’s been said so far–

In case of system failure, if you have a:

1.) Image-—->Restore

2.) Clone—–>Swap drives (same socket).

Zig

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You MAY be having an ID collision of some sorts. The OS want to see different IDS for different disks. Your cloning SW may have a switch to create the clone with a different ID.
See
https://superuser.com/questions/1250123/cloned-disk-duplicate-disk-signature-how-to-resolve

https://www.tenforums.com/backup-restore/134940-cloning-disk-signature-collisions.html

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/markrussinovich/fixing-disk-signature-collisions

and one on youtube
https://youtu.be/Y5jGmEY8VkQ?t=4

again: Your cloning SW may have a switch to create the clone with a different ID.
A much simpler solution if it is there!

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

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Wavy

The data was on the cloned disk but was not recognized by File Explorer.

However the external drive was recognized by Windows 10 Device Manager and Acronis.

 

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PS this is another plus for Imaging over cloning.

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

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wavy wrote:

this is another plus for Imaging over cloning.

Yes! That and several more, also covered in my aforementioned video, at the 15:25 mark.

Plus at the 11:00 mark, several reasons why clones don’t always work. Getting those right is what sets good cloning programs apart.

I gave up on Acronis TrueImage more than 10 years ago because it performed poorly in my tests for some of those issues. I haven’t had a reason to look at it since, but I’ve just been assuming it must have gotten better because of the number of people who still seem to use it.

But maybe not. IIRC, one of TI’s problems was it made too literal of a clone. If it still does, that would support wavy’s suggestion:

wavy wrote:

You MAY be having an ID collision of some sorts.

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Kathy Stevens, wavy

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I would like to thank everyone who participated in our discussion of system/data recovery – clone, image, vs. backup. The topic is important to us since we do time sensitive energy market analysis and the loss of a computer, even for a short period, places us and our clients at competitive disadvantages.

But before entering into the discussion, an apology for not getting back sooner. The resent dislocations in global energy flows have required our full time attention.

Now, after reviewing our computer recovery options, we have decided to:

• Continue our practice of having standby desktop PCs, configured with a standardized suite of software, so if one of our desktops goes down all we have to do is pull a standby off the shelf, recover data files from a backup, and go back to work – elapse time about a half hour.
• Continue our practice of doing daily backups to internal drives using Acronis True Image for Western Digital (Acronis) for each active computer.
• Continue our practice of doing regular backups to external drives using Acronis for each active computer.
• Continue our practice of regularly coping data files to external drives using Windows File Explorer for each active computer.
• Once a computer is fully configured for the first time, cloning its drive housing Windows onto an external drive using Acronis and putting the cloned drive away for safe keeping.
• Cloning the drive housing Windows of each PC onto a second external drive just prior to doing monthly Windows updates.

It is important to note that Acronis True Image for Western Digital has three cloning options:

• Cloning to replace a disk on “this machine” – clone with bootable OS,
• Cloning to replace a disk on “another machine” – clone with bootable OS, and
• Cloning to use as a “data disk” – clone as a data disk.

We will be cloning to replace a disk on “this machine”.

Then if one of our desktops goes down, we have five options for recovering the PC:

• Recover from a restore point;
• Activate a standby desktop PC;
• Boot the computer from an external drive hosting a clone, do a system diagnostic, and then cloning the existing internal drive using Acronis;
• Removing the defective internal drive from the PC and replacing it with a cloned drive; or
• Using the computer’s system recovery tool to reinstall Windows, reinstall software, and recover data files.

We have tested, “Boot the computer from an external drive hosting a clone, do a system diagnostic, and then cloning the internal drive using Acronis” and it works.

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mledman

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have you tried looking at he disk on another computer that does not have the cloned dis’s ID?

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

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Kathy Stevens

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Paul T

The data was on the cloned disk but was not recognized byFile Explorer.

However the external drive was recognized by Windows 10 Device Manager and by Acronis.

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That is expected because the data is the same as the existing internal disk. Windows needs to initialize the disk to see it in Explorer, but you don’t want to do that as it is no longer a clone.

cheers, Paul

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Kathy Stevens

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wavy

Good idea, the contents of the cloned external drive are accessible via File Explorer using another PC.

Only problem is that the other PC was on the shelf for a while and when it started-up it reached out to Microsoft via. its WiFi and start to update Windows 10.

Oh well.

Thanks again

 

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Hello Kathy, I’m a little late to this discussion.

It’s very fascinating to witness how other experienced and capable PC users solve a very important problem.

If it helps you in any way, permit me to offer a few simple suggestions for your consideration, after many decades of trial-and-LOTSA-errors

 

(1)  assume in what follows that the C: system partition is always treated separately from other drive letters that are dedicated to data (see various mentions of this key separation in several excellent comments above);

(2)  do your very best to enforce a policy that keeps all digital files entirely independent of the hardware that stores those files:  done correctly, this policy can recover with relative ease whenever any hardware device might fail completely:  for example, if any one HDD or SSD fails completely without warning, the lost data files should also be stored on other storage devices that are still working AOK;  for this purpose, drive image files of C: are to be treated like any other data files that need to be “backed up” regularly;

(3)  consider the advantages of an external enclosure like the one offered by StarTech:  eSATA and USB 3.0 interfaces, a separate ON/OFF switch and an external power brick, which should be powered by a quality UPS battery-backup unit:  switch it ON to do backups, then switch it OFF;  USB 3.0 is still fast enough for all spinning platter drives, even the “monster” HDDs >10TB each!

(4)  in addition to that external enclosure, consider installing as many internal drives as your chassis will accommodate:  SSDs make this very easy e.g. Icy Dock has an 8-bay unit for 2.5″ SSDs that slides into an empty 5.25″ drive bay;  if you run out of available SATA ports on your motherboard, consider installing a RAID controller into an empty PCIe expansion slot;

(5)  To keep these suggestions as simple as possible, consider the following list of Windows drive letters, mapped much like the graphical layout in Windows Disk Management:

C: / E: where C: is ~100GB and E: is the remainder dedicated to data files

D:  (optical disc drive)

F: / G:

H: / I:

etc.

(6)  whenever you deem it necessary e.g. daily, execute the following batch sequence in Command Prompt:

E:

cd \

xcopy [folder] G:\[folder] /s/e/v/d%1

xcopy [folder] I:\[folder] /s/e/v/d%1

The command line option “%1” can be “/l” which tells xcopy to report what WOULD change if /l were not present.

We find that [folder] works best in batch files if it has no embedded blanks.

(7)  if you want to get fancy, we found a way to update ONLY a single sub-folder in [folder].  That batch program does the following, using our library website as an example, and updating ONLY that “authors” sub-folder in that library:

E:

cd \

cd library.mirror

xcopy authors G:\library.mirror\authors /s/e/v/d%1

xcopy authors I:\library.mirror\authors /s/e/v/d%1

 

(8)  a very similar sequence can write identical copies of any one drive image of C:

write image of C: to G:

copy image on G: to I:

copy image on I: to E:

fc compare the image on G: with the image on E: (3-way “triangular” stability)

(2 pair-wise bit-by-bit comparisons will prove all 3 files are exactly identical:

if A = B and B = C, then C = A )

(9)  we serialize our drive image folders with a very simple naming convention:

acronis.image.001

acronis.image.002

acronis.image.003

… and we keep a simple .txt file up-to-date with summaries of sequential OS changes that were unique to any one of the image files in each .NNN folder e.g. “installed new video driver”, “added new SSD formatted as J: / K:” etc.

 

The good news is that you can easily “simulate” all of the above, using a small “test.folder” and by writing a few simple BATCH programs to formalize your preferred logic.

For example, there is a simple way to ask a YES/NO question e.g. “Is the StarTech external enclosure switched ON?”  If “NO” is the answer, jump over the xcopy command(s) that target the partitions in that enclosure.

 

Hope this helps.

 

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Kathy Stevens

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SupremeLaW

It is never to late to join a discussion.

We will work through your approach and adopt where it fits our needs.

Thanks again.

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SupremeLaW

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The XCOPY command has a certain behavior that we discovered after plenty of experience:

the “/l” option only reads each file’s NTFS properties into MEMORY, NOT the entire file. 

Therefore, running our batch programs by adding “/l” to the command line ends up loading all of those NTFS properties into MEMORY, where they are still memory-resident.

Consequently, the following sequence of two commands:

xcopy [folder] I:\[folder] /s/e/v/d/l

xcopy [folder] I:\[folder] /s/e/v/d

IS ACTUALLY MUCH FASTER OVERALL than the following one command:

xcopy [folder] I:\folder] /s/e/v/d

i.e. withOUT “/l” on the command line.

The reason for this measurable speed difference is the presence of those NTFS properties in MEMORY where they can be accessed much more quickly as compared to fetching them again from the storage subsystem of HDDs and/or SSDs.

Like most other internal commands, you can display help with all available options by adding “/?” to the XCOPY command line:

xcopy /?

The XCOPY command has been around for a very long time, and we have found it to be very reliable over a period spanning many years.

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Kathy Stevens

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SupremeLaW

Thanks again.

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SupremeLaW

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You’re very welcome.

Another trick of the trade just occurred to me:  many standard PC motherboards have “pin headers” for internal USB 2.0 connections.

The pins are arranged in a 2-by-5 matrix, and one of the pins is absent by design.

Tripp-Lite make a short cable with the matching USB 2.0 block connector at one end, and a standard Type-A USB connector at the other end.

On a few of our workstations, we’ve plugged a cheap SanDisk 256GB thumb drive into that Type-A connector, and left that thumb drive inside the chassis.  In general, these USB 2.0 thumb drives have become incredibly cheap.

Then, we copied our most recent drive image of C: to that thumb drive.

During any standard STARTUP, Windows sees this thumb drive as just another NTFS drive letter.

That thumb drive is a great place to store a few drive image files of C: in a place that is effectively “concealed” from anyone who doesn’t already know about it!

And, in an emergency, if no other options are available, a validated drive image file can be restored to the C: partition, for complete recovery of a working set of OS system files.

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https://www.newegg.com/black-tripp-lite-6-usb/p/N82E16812329093?Item=9SIAFJ8A0G4205&Tpk=9SIAFJ8A0G4205

Tripp Lite U024-06N-IDC Black USB 2.0 A Female To USB Adapter Motherboard 4-PIN IDC Header Cable

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SupremeLaW

I took some time to review your postings and I am impressed with your approach to preserving system integrity. I am afraid that your method, in many respects, is in conflict with our keep it simple approach to computer management.

In review:

• We always keep the C: system partition separate from other drive letters that are dedicated to data storage/backup.
• We always store backup copies of digital files on drives that are independent of the hardware that stores the working data files.
• We frequently use eSATA / USB 3.0 external drive enclosures but do not see the need to use UPS battery-backup units having separate ON/OFF switches. Since the external drives are only on for short periods of time. However, we do power our external drives through Tripp-Lite surge protectors.
• It is our practice to have at least two internal drives in each workstation and are reviewing the possibility of adding a third drive to each.
• And yes, we keep the drive lettering as simple as possible.
• We do not, and probably will not, execute the batch sequence you outlined in the Command Prompt. Instead, we rely on Acronis True Image for Western Digital for automatic backups to internal and external drives and cloning C drives to external media as well as Windows File Explorer for coping data files to external drives.
• Our experience is that we are at greater risk when writing batch files than using an app developed by a professional.
• Our practice is to avoid touching the interior of our PCs other to install drives, memory, and blow out the dust twice a year. We work under the assumption that the computer manufacturer (in our case HP) optimized the design of our workstations and it is unlikely that we will improve on their performance by using internal USB 2.0 connections to support “cheap thumb drives” for drive image storage. We store our drive image/clone files on external drives.

Thank you again for participating in the thread and making us reconsider our approach to preserving system integrity.

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Do you have workstations with multiple physical hard drives?

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Yes.

Our standard configuration is one 2TB SSD and one 2TB HHD

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