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Patch reliability is unclear. Unless you have an immediate, pressing need to install a specific patch, don't do it. |
.Scott Guthrie has enormous technical skills. Let’s see if he can put them to use for us, turning Windows back into a reliable platform. Difficult? Sur
[See the full post at: ScottGu we need you: Please unscrew Windows]
SueW, 
JohnW, 
HiFlyer, 
AlexEiffel, 
Cascadian, 
lurks about, 
JDeC, 
WildBill, 
Elly, 
Laptop Boy, 
dononline, 
Moonbear, 
AJNorth Microsoft could fix things if they really wanted to. They aren’t past the point of no return yet. But they need to change their approach.
To sum up, they need to figure out exactly what will make traditional Windows customers happy, and do that. And that includes mainly their corporate customers, because that’s where the money is.
If they would do the above, a whole lot of people would jump right back on the Windows bandwagon. Instead, a whole lot of people are jumping off of the Windows bandwagon, something I never thought I would see.
Spot on!
Perhaps someone can force Nadella and the M$ Board into a locked room and show them file news footage from the 1990s of people lined-up for blocks and in the dark — around the world — waiting to be amongst the first to purchase the latest version of Windows.
In the meantime, the vendors and devs really ought to be looking ahead to the mass migration to Linux that would almost certainly occur if businesses (and consumers) had their apps available for that platform… .
I wonder if Bill Gates has talked to Nadella about the direction he is taking Microsoft in. Gates would never have done what Nadella is doing.
Imagine if they were to make a Windows 11 that is a Really Good serious operating system for computers – in the ways that Windows 7 and the underpinnings of 8.1 were heading but even better – and charge a few hundred bucks for it. Maybe more than a few hundred. After the vacuum left by the suck of Windows 10, people would line up in the dark. I would. I can imagine a next generation workstation that would give me the entirety of the Win32 world and open new possibilities. There are TONS of things that could still be done better. The list of possibilities is not sparse.
If Windows truly dies, then Dave Cutler’s operating system architecture really needs to be continued by someone else. It’s not something that should just be lost because some corporate bobbleheads decided against common sense that “mobile is all there will be”. Someone has to produce the next generations of software. Some might say Linux could carry the load, and maybe it will, but there’s merit in the VMS/NT legacy…
For a long time I figured Microsoft would have to keep Windows being a pretty decent OS – especially for someone like me (a Software Engineer) – because they themselves have to engineer the next version of Windows (and their other products) using it. Then it started to become more and more clear that they’re just not wanting to keep making new versions. Remember, they have said explicitly that Windows 10 would be the last version of Windows.
-Noel
If Windows truly dies, then Dave Cutler’s operating system architecture really needs to be continued by someone else.
Dave Cutler – the guy who stole the Alpha OS from DEC and renamed it “Windows NT”.
Yes!
Give me a 100% user controlled OS a’la a finely-tuned Windows 7/8.1, ad-free and with focus on a pro working scenario, where uptime and stability is key. Only release fully tested patches, that may be installed, when I want/need them…
Do by all means continue developing new features and do by all means tell me about them, but don’t give me anything but a link to the store, where I can/may download them…
This, my good Microsoft, I certainly gladly would pay you $100-200 per year per workstation for… I do not expect anyone to work for free.
Until then… I’ll continue working towards a locked down, off-line W7 setup for my pro photo work and Linux for online business… W10 is a lost cause here as it stands, sorry.
One can dream, right? 😀
Sigh…
MrJimPhelps said:
Microsoft could fix things if they really wanted to. […] To sum up, they need to figure out exactly what will make traditional Windows customers happy, and do that.
Perhaps whatever has been happening is in fact CEO Nadella’s vision of how things should be fixed ? Is it a cultural thing or perhaps his personal background that is motivating him to chase after the latest wealth-building 123/ABC/XYZ at breakneck pace — even at the expense of pushing everyone else out of the way (& even over the edge) ?
If yes, Windows may possibly face similar roadmap issues under the hands of someone who share the same background or mindset. Just think of regimes that pursue “development” at all costs — including widespread environmental destruction, suicides due to homes lost to forced resettlement, wholesale demolition of perfectly-fine heritage neighbourhoods, converting old cemeteries into 10-lane highways, luxury condos & sprawling bungalows that only multi-millionaires can afford, increasingly huge social & income disparities, etc.
In other words, traditional Windows for multi-millions of people = REJECT, new Windows = EMBRACE (because it generates even more $$$ for the dozens of billionaires).
Actually, Satya Nadella’s selection as Microsoft CEO isn’t great for Indians (Arun Gupta – 05 Feb 2014):
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/05/satya-nadella-microsoft-ceo-not-make-indians-proudSince then nuclear terror has been superseded by India’s embrace of the free market and the digital revolution. It’s created 65 billionaires, but the cost is being borne by the still majority agrarian population who are being pushed off ancestral land for factories, mines and dams. So when Indians glow like a proud parent at a new CEO or billionaire of their own, they are rejecting millions who suffer for that wealth.
More significant, few of the 140 million Indians who lack clean water or the 400 million who live on less than $40 a month will toast Nadella. They are not indifferent to his success. They pay for it in homes bulldozed, waters stolen and land fouled by proliferating IT campuses and gated communities.
I hope things change, but I’m afraid they won’t.
The stocks are up, so obviously that means they’re doing the right thing somewhere.
The problem for us users and sysadmins is that they’re not doing the due diligence to figure out what’s working and what isn’t, and addressing the “isn’t”.
It reminds me of Dr. Ian Malcolm’s quote from Jurassic Park: “Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.”
This might as well be MS’ MO for the last 5+ years.
Precisely: though they are frequently used as synonyms, there is substantial difference between wisdom and intelligence.
There’s also this bit of dialog from Jurassic Park that always makes me chuckle:
Ian Malcolm: God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs.
Ellie Sattler: Dinosaurs eat man…woman inherits the earth.
Quoting Woody, in “Computerworld” today:
“What we need is a stable Windows, even if we have to pay for it.”
Well, what I NEED is a STABLE OS that, if commercial, I pay for once and once only, from the day I BUY IT pre-installed in MY computer, to the last day before end of life.
Or, else, a more or less user-friendly free OS one can download from some Linux distro server.
Otherwise, Woody has written a really fine article with my full assent. If not a lot of hope.
What it seems to me a tiny little bit more realistic than expecting a self-motivated move back to sanity and responsibility within MS, would be their losing some serious ($$$) court cases on the issue of breach of contract with some big users that expect proper and prompt maintenance of the systems they have bought from MS to get their business done.
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV
Most users prefer stability over all else, with security a strong second. Whizbang features they will never user not so much.
the truth is that no one really likes feature updates, and Microsoft is being selfish with them, since Microsoft have shown that it can support up to 5 versions at the same time. its policy of only supporting 3 of them is nonsense.
Well, what I NEED is a STABLE OS that, if commercial, I pay for once and once only, from the day I BUY IT pre-installed in MY computer, to the last day before end of life
One of my arguments to persuade people to drop their bootlegged windows was how cheap it was! After all I got an amazing support for free for almost countless years (Win95, XP, Win7)…
It’s like buying a car. Pay once and you own it, but save up and pay for maintenance… I think it’s only fair.
There is no hope for Windows.
It is pointless to continue our cries that “Microsoft could fix Windows if it wanted to.” We’re past the point where the writing is on the wall. Nadella put it in print with his rambling email that revealed the evisceration of the Windows team. Windows won’t be fixed because Microsoft doesn’t want to fix it.
Nadella & Company don’t share our views and, in my opinion, believe them to be irrelevant. We are to be left behind as Microsoft pursues its new strategies. And that’s fine by me.
Windows has become a maintenance nightmare, a hodgepodge of foolish features that are unworthy of the effort required to navigate the deadly patching and update minefield.
I agree with Woody, & lots of MVP’s & Loungers have made good points too. As for paying monthly or yearly for Windows-as-a-Service, as Office 365 renters do, I might consider it. IF Windows 10.2, 11, or whatever is finally stabilized into a dependable OS. Like Windows 7 was before the recent attempts to break it. Nadella probably doesn’t care about Windows 8.1 users like me… until enough Win 7 people are driven (forced?) to upgrade to Win 10 & Win 8.1 becomes the new target. Yes, this is sounding paranoid, but as the unknown quote goes “Even if you’re paranoid, it doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.” Ready to start researching Macs & Linux distros more & more…
Bought a refurbished Windows 10 64-bit, currently updated to 22H2. Have broke the AC adapter cord going to the 8.1 machine, but before that, coaxed it into charging. Need to buy new adapter if wish to continue using it.
Wild Bill Rides Again...
For me, as a retiree I am a SOHO user and casual gamer, Windows will have these three ‘features’ and/or tenets to stay viable as an OS for my future use. It has to be “S” for Stable, “C” for configurable and controllable, and finally offer “S+P” for Security and Privacy.
MS could make a very stable and secure Windows LTS Privacy Edition. I would pay for such a thing. Allow the user to opt out of Cloud Services with a built in ON THE HARD DRIVE privacy and control panel that sets preferences that stick. If an update or upgrade needs default settings, let me save MY customized settings, switch back to the defaults for the update and then go back to the custom settings with a simple loading of the saved preferences.
Cloud may be convenient, but that which is out there is subject to be hacked. If I neglect to do backups and loose data that is on me. That is a risk and responsibility I accept. It is far better and preferable than the letter you get from an entity that stores your data that says “We are so sorry, but our system had a breach or was hacked, an admin laptop was lost by a worker, etc. etc., so here is a free signup to a data security/Identity Fraud pervention service for a year. Yet the entity whose “secure cloud storage or other storage” was breached, usually due to internal negligence, misfeasance or nonfeasance, only suffers a few weeks of stock plunges and largely avoid any liability. All sharing of data should require user OPT-IN, not convoluted opt-out language and processes.
Control means when I do authorize an update, I do not have to hunt for old settings to do what were routine activities, because Murphy knows that this will never be during a non-critical time. Control also means it is MY hardware.
I have a 20 year old Ford Ranger truck that runs well. So far Ford has not put sugar in the gas tank under the guise of an fuel update to get me to “upgrade” to the new ‘connected’ 2019 Ford Ranger.
Win7Pro-64_SP1 / Group B (leaning to Group W or MrJimPhelps Group L, or a combination of the 2).
Bill C. : “I have a 20 year old Ford Ranger truck that runs well. So far Ford has not put sugar in the gas tank under the guise of an fuel update to get me to “upgrade” to the new ‘connected’ 2019 Ford Ranger.”
That posting of yours is a jewel, man!
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV
Call me crazy but I don’t think the idea of a “subscription” to Windows is going to work, but I agree with Woody that that’s indeed where this is headed, some sort of “Microsoft 365” solution where you get different flavors of Windows and Office applications and it depends on what you want as to what you pay.
As for me, I’m riding with Windows 7 until the end, and then I’ll hop off onto some flavor of Linux I suppose. I’m not going to pay monthly to use my own computer and I sure am not going to pay to store my life in Microsoft’s data centers so they can pilfer through everything I own.
It will take you a few months to get comfortable with Linux. Are you really planning on waiting till Windows 7 goes out of support before making the Linux plunge?
What reason do we have to believe that Scott Guthrie will do any of things we hope?
First reason: ScottGu is a bl**dy genius.
Second reason: He’s a good guy, too.
This all says to me that it wasn’t such a bad idea after all to keep using the old Windows systems. It clearly has no future as a foundation for computing if Microsoft thinks its parts can be split up.
The end was near, and now it’s clear.
Hm, seems like it might be a good time to put even more serious consideration into not applying any more updates, save maybe for Internet Explorer security patches. Hard to imagine all those organizations will put out really good, integrated patches. They could go back to patching components separately, though. That would certainly work better than multiple divisions trying to integrate patches into all new builds all the time. With any quality at all, I mean.
-Noel
Woody:
“First reason: ScottGu is a bl**dy genius.
Second reason: He’s a good guy, too.”
Then your friend may be in the wrong place.
I started working with PCs (as opposed to mainframes) back in the 90’s, then in the late 90’s moved on to Windows, because that was where nearly the rest of the world that mattered most to me was, and compatibility of Mac/Windows Internet connections, file formats, etc., etc., etc. was less than stellar. Also some people I worked with at the Navy were mandated to use Windows.
But, over time, things have moved on: now I am finding that, with my new Mac, I’ve had, so far, no problems communicating and working with practically anyone and doing everything that had to be done.
If there ever was a situation where to do work of intellectual appeal or monetary significance to me, Windows became, once more, a must, and I had to use the fee-for-service, then current version of Windows, let’s say Windows 20.23456. And, if by doing so, I became a renter in my own PC, I would count that as the cost of doing business and bite the bullet and use Windows 20.23456. Or bite the Cloud. Or Azure. Or whatever else might need biting. But only if.
At this point in my life, I have reasons to doubt I’ll ever come find myself in such a pass.
Lucky me.
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV
Wall Street believes that Nadella is moving in the right direction. That does not mean that they believe that Microsoft can get the job done. They know all about the past failures and abandoned projects.
Nadella pushed Windows (and Surface) to the back of the bus, not under the bus. In doing so he is calling for a culture change at Microsoft. The current corporate culture has been a few decades in the making and it is like well cured concrete. Changing it could lift a heavy weight off of the employees, but it will be a major inhibitor to success if not handled properly.
The strategy is bold and Nadella thinks the timing is right. Cloud and AI first. He has the backing of the Board and his inner circle. It is going to be difficult to flawlessly execute every change, but he can not afford to miscalculate. It could send the company way off course.
Of late Microsoft has not dealt well with reliability/availability and quality control. If they do not clean this up and put an emphasis on it, they are doomed in the services business. This is their Achilles heal. Windows may no longer be the heart of the company, but it is still their life blood. It has to healthy or the heart will stop beating.
Actually, if Office, accept no substitutes, is critical to one’s business, then one can use Office 2016 in a Mac. I do that in mine. So one can sill use some MS applications and do without Windows.
If at MS really are, in their hearts, intent on getting rid of Windows and moving on, then they still could maintain some ghostly shadow of their software empire by making their most popular applications available also in other operating systems. For a price.
But, as Woody wrote in his “Computerworld” article:
“We are having a wake at askwoody.com”
So, please, let’s not forget that and act properly here, with a sense of occasion…
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV
Anonymous:
Sure. It has sucked for ages and ages, and how! I could tell you stories!
It’s that, just now, it has starting to suck a lot more. Like you wouldn’t believe!
That’s precisely what we are all going on about here.
Yours truly,
OscarCP, the Microsoft Junky.
P.S. And Yes: it really, really sucks.
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV
Here’s an outside the box idea…
Maybe Microsoft could save Windows by moving it entirely to a desktop environment for GNU/Linux. Think: Xfce, Gnome, Mate, Cinnamon, etc., or Windows … 🙂
1. Assuming that they could make the UWP (Universal Windows Platform) with native compatibility with the Linux kernel, that would solve their future needs for a stable OS, and save on development costs for a Windows kernel. MS could contribute to the open source kernel as needed for any dependencies.
2. Provide a compatibility layer for legacy Win32 apps written by MS for 100% compatibility, unlike the Wine and Crossover projects.
This is not an unprecedented idea. Apple ditched their legacy MacOS when they migrated to Intel processors, and built the new OSX on a Unix compatible OS.
https://www.lifewire.com/mac-os-x-is-not-linux-distribution-2204744
https://www.apple.com/media/us/osx/2012/docs/OSX_for_UNIX_Users_TB_July2011.pdf
Windows 10 Pro 22H2
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