Patch Lady – 1803 issues with peer to peer

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A new “known issue” note was posted in the answers forum: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-networking/file-explorer-may-no
[See the full post at: Patch Lady – 1803 issues with peer to peer]

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Mr. Natural, Jan K., BobbyB, woody

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Windows 10:

The gift that keeps on giving… long-resolved or never-seen problems.

Keep Running Windows 7 Safely for Years to Come  
Make Windows 10 look and work like Windows 7

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BobbyB

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So why not push a simple update through WU in order to fix this? Am I ranty or just miss the point of WU? (Or is Microsoft missing it and just wants their software to suck telemetry?)

Where’s the QoS, after all?

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HiFlyer, BobbyB

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With the new method of Monthly Rollups and cumulative Updates, pushing through a simple single fix is quite difficult. On the Win10 side, we now occasionally see download-only hotfixes that are caught up with the next cumulative update.

You’d think that consolidating patches would make life easier. In many cases, it doesn’t.

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Hit this problem back in May outlined here and tried all these finally fixed with this simple solution . Many thx to Susan for outlining addl. measures to try that I omitted from the original Post/rant/whine, Sometimes on older Routers IPV6 can be a problem and your further “Ham Strung” by not having SMB1.0/CIFS to fall back on due to Security concerns, although older Networked Printers seem to still need that. You can get a Small network to work although be patient and don’t enable or disable Services and Protocols work through it methodically, even though its a pain sometimes.
The small test Network at work from the original post has had an uptime of about 1 month (including power cycles so not a contiguous up time but reflecting real world work scenario’s) running simulations etc and works first time every time, so there may well be “light at the end of the 1803 tunnel”

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That simple solution is really slick. My home network consists of Windows 7 computers. Recall that it was recommended to disable SMB1 in order to prevent ransomware from propagating throughout a local network as a result of the known SMB1 vulnerabilities. I tried disabling SMB1 on all of my Windows 7 computers, only to find that I could not see my other home computers in Explorer.

Tomorrow is Backup Sunday for me. After performing my weekly backups, I will try your really simple solution in order to see if it resolves the issues which I encountered when I disabled SMB1 on all of my Windows 7 home computers.

Thank you for your potentially very useful post.

 

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woody

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@Gone to Plaid tried out disabling IPV6 on Win7’s here at home another “mixed bag” again Win7 “old war horse” Pro, Win7 Pro on Partition and Win7 Ent VHD (all separate Machines) and on all 3 IPV6 was disabled, and SMB1.0 was disabled, rebooted and all work fine. However Win7’s Ent + Pro doesent have any services modified as per Susan’s Topic and they werent Req. to connect to Win10 or will be soon and have no problem out of the Box, as I find Win7 Networking exceptionally “indestructible,” and I dont use “HomeGroup” here, well most of the time unless you get in to “Master Browser” then the fun starts. Here’s a link with a bit more info post#2 is in depth with the salient info. Strangely as an aside the “infamous” Win7 network Map now seems to work. I dont know what’s the deal with that? It used to display all sorts of nonsense, certainly not helpful in fault finding. Hope this helps and I caught you in time for “Sunday Backups”
PS not sure does “HomeGroup” use SMB1.0? that might be a workaround should other issues arise, its handy little workaround on Win7 i.e. enable then “back out” on a per Machine basis after tweaking file sharing settings that used to be another handy trick, needless to say at work we dont use it “full time” but a good workaround in times of Frustration and Profanity

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Slight variation to the whole disabling of IPv6: at one customer location, disabling it on the server seemed to maybe possibly do the trick.

Another trick for another customer: their ISP redirected failed DNS lookups to a search page, so when Windows went looking for SOME-PC, it got the IP address for the search page server instead of the computer on the LAN. The skewed priorities here are apparently new for 1803. Switching to Google DNS on the workstation (probably) fixed things.

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woody

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Any links to more details?

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No links; I found these out myself.

But one complication that I forgot to mention with the ISP search page issue: Event Viewer -> Applications and Services Logs -> Microsoft -> Windows -> SMBClient -> Connectivity showed the search page IP address, but “ping -4 SOME-PC” showed the LAN address.

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woody

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Heaven forbid that not every service is on automatic!

Shall we try for 200 running processes?

For an empty desktop ready to work, XP took less than 20, Win 7 took less than 30, Win 8 took less than 40…

-Noel

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columbia2011

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UPnP = A BotNets Enabling Best Friend

Having the “UPnP Device Host” service set to anything other than DISABLED is a serious security issue and just plain crazy nuts!!!

Is you have “UPnP Device Host” enabled (basically an automatic on-demand route creator and Windows Firewall hole punch) and your Router has:

1 – UPnP Enabled (an again automatic route creator / firewall hole punch that most routers default to enabled)

2 – Remote Access Enabled (most routers default to enabled)

3 – You still have the default router User Name and Password set (easily 90%+)

You are little more than Hacking and/or BotNet Bait.

Note that many routers (often ISP supplied) have serious security holes that rarely, if ever, get firmware update patched. There are widely used routers in the field that are so bad that often router item 3 above doesn’t even matter one way or the other.  If router items 1 and 2 above are enabled (again typically the defaults) then even if you do change the the default User Name and Passwords a hacker can still get right in, using well know exploits, to take control of these routers.  Once they have control of the router then ANY UPnP enabled Operating Systems in the devices and computers connected to the router are Instant Toast.

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Since v.1703 I lost the ability to connect/browse/direct access to any folder or file between any computer beyond v.1607.

Solution? After lots of hours lost to trial and error (no, not going to reinstall Windows and not learn anything, thankyouverymuch) I resorted to LANDC++ client because it doesn’t hash files.

2018. True story.

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I’m waiting to see how all of this is resolved.  The inability to browse shares with SMB1 (and thus NetBIOS) gone is not a surprise to me… I predicted this would happen, since it’s the same behavior I saw in my own (8.1) systems when I tried the SMB1-disabled configuration in the wake of the WannaCry attacks.

Since there was no benefit whatsoever in me having SMB1 disabled on my open-share home network, I chose to re-enable it rather than continue trying to get network browsing working with SMB1 disabled.  I know NetBIOS is old and creaky, but I am very familiar with it after all these years, and it has always worked for me.  I tend to assign a lot more weight to “it has always worked” than “it’s old and therefore we must get rid of it.”  If the security issues mattered to me even a little, that may have changed my mind, but in my setup, they don’t matter.

As I wrote before, I still have not been able to learn what’s supposed to replace the functionality of the NetBIOS share broadcasts & master browser lists, and while directions regarding how to disable SMB1 are all over the place, I didn’t see anything that explained what was going to do the work that NetBIOS had been doing.  MS blogger Ned Pyle made it seem that if you were not using any older SMB1-only network devices (NAS, scanner, printer, etc.) and were using only versions of Windows newer than XP, you could simply disable SMB1 and not even notice the difference.  That was not the case for me, and that made it a safe guess that it wouldn’t be for others either.

I’ve gathered that uPnP is supposed to have some role in this, but I tried enabling uPnP and SSDP in my services (they are among the first services I disable on a fresh Windows installation) when I disabled SMB1 to see if they would bring back the missing ability to browse shares, but they didn’t, even with discovery turned on in the network settings dialog (having the above services disabled makes selecting discovery impossible.  It will appear that you’ve turned it on, but if you go back to the settings immediately thereafter, it will be OFF again).

I’m thinking that now that MS has chosen to make the decision for everyone with SMB1, the truth will come out in the wash. Either there is a robust and functional replacement for NetBIOS, and I will finally find out what it is and how it works, or there isn’t, and MS will be compelled to create one.

 

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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Cybertooth

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I’m curious if people can still connect to other computers at home via IP address instead of machine name? I don’t do any network file sharing at home.

Instead of \\machine name\sharename try \\192.168.x.x\sharename

Determine the IP of the pc you want to connect to and see if you can connect via IP. If so you may need to set static IP’s on the hardware in question to insure future connectivity.

Red Ruffnsore

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Mr. Natural wrote:

Instead of \\machine name\sharename try \\192.168.x.x\sharename

I tried that when I had SMB1 disabled in 8.1 as a test back in the WannaCry time, and it worked just fine.  The NetBIOS master browser list is the bit that disabling SMB1 chopped off, and that’s used for resolving hostnames into IPs and for allowing the shares to be advertised so that they can appear as entries in the Network section of the navigation pane.  I already have my router set up to reserve IPs for all of my PCs, so it would be easy to put some links in the favorites pane and have that be the workaround (after being accessed once, I believe they would then also appear in the Network listing on the left).

Now that the SMB1 “invalid parameter” error has been fixed (or “fixed,” as Ned Pyle put it), I wonder if there has been some recognition that people still used NetBIOS.  It’s promising that Mr. Pyle is annoyed by the fix, given his wish to dictate which networking protocols are permitted for every Windows 10 user in the world.  That “one size fits all,” dictatorial approach really annoys me, if you haven’t noticed.

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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Here’s an article from Windows Central worth reading:
https://www.windowscentral.com/are-two-windows-10-updates-year-doing-more-hurt-users-help-them

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Elly

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We still have an alpha mainframe running Open VMS. We are working on a replacement since HP is abandoning Open VMS in a few years. (Sad indeed) We may need to keep some windows 7 systems around until it is retired. This system still uses SMB1 and it will be interesting to see how things go. It appears Cisco hardware is already blocking SMB1 because I’ve found that a device that tries to connect to a file share via Samba won’t connect if it runs through a Cisco router.

I guess you’ll need to call me the “corporate seeker”. As mentioned previously I am pushing 1803 to all of our windows 10 systems now. I gave it full release this past Friday. Note that this version is still not approved here at Askwoody and I’ve made this decision on my own. I want some standards established and I plan on having these systems updated and running before I take a week off in a few weeks.

I’ll be sure to report any issues. I can tell you that I’ve received a few phones calls about the update occurring on their systems. No one has really been exposed to the Windows 10 update process since I did not update many pc’s previously. But it’s time people start getting used to seeing this since this is what Microsoft wants to do going forward. I can tell you from pushing via WSUS that much of the configuration of 1803 occurs behind the scenes and does take quite a while before a user is prompted to reboot and they do get the option to pick a time to install. When they approve the update it takes a little bit of time 15-30 minutes maybe? But the users do not have to wait and experience the complete update like those that run the update manually.

Red Ruffnsore

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Hmmm… I just upgraded a 1703 to 1803 (individual). It took 95 minutes from “go get it” to the restart button. Another 37 minutes from the restart button to a stable usable desktop.

The computer would not have been usable for much during the preparing/downloading/installing before the restart because of the load on the machine.

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Mr. Natural

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Could very well be PKCano. The 95 minute interval you mention is what is happening behind the scenes allowing users to continue to work when pushing via WSUS. The “only” wait period the users see is when they are prompted to reboot. That would be the 37 minute interval you mention. I haven’t had any complaints (yet) about a pc running slow while it does its thing in the background. I’m not sure exactly how long users are experiencing the reboot interval and of course the age of the pc will also determine that. Thanks for all you do PKC.

I can’t say, just a guess, maybe the behind the scenes stuff occurs only when the pc is idle in this situation. Oh wait this is Microsoft. Nevermind, forget that.

Red Ruffnsore

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Only a bit over two hours? pfff…

Just came across Dedoimedo’s article on 1804… it could simply be something I wrote!

Upgrade process

This was long and tedious. It took about an hour to actually install the update, then no less than FOUR reboots until the process was finally complete, taking another 45 minutes or so. Four reboots! Four stones, four reboots! Now, when I compare this brave new “move fast break things nonsense” approach to what we had before, Windows XP/7/8, it is obvious that it is inferior in every way. With the previous versions of Windows, which I still happily use, my update process is simple: full system image followed by the update. The latter only takes about 20 minutes and a single reboot. Now, the new and modern, rapidly changing Windows takes unnecessary time to do the exact same thing. Time that you can’t really use.

See full article here… https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/windows-10-update-1804.html

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PKCano wrote:

Hmmm… I just upgraded a 1703 to 1803 (individual). It took 95 minutes from “go get it” to the restart button. Another 37 minutes from the restart button to a stable usable desktop. The computer would not have been usable for much during the preparing/downloading/installing before the restart because of the load on the machine.

And how long did it take to redo all the settings, program defaults and all the other custom tweaks and UI massages you had done on v1703 to “have it your way” that the “Upgrade” to v1803 reset to default and/or wiped out to get YOUR Win10 install back to Satya’s way.

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AlexEiffel

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A LOOOONG time. And my account no longer had permission to make some of the changes I had made before!

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You definitely need to recheck your privacy settings on a home pc upgraded to 1803. Also look closely for added privacy options that need to be turned off. I’m able to manage those settings via group policy. I hear what you’re saying but I haven’t heard anyone gripe about having to reset personal settings.

That was something I was curious about also. I know people will not tolerate that if they have to go through that with every version update.

Red Ruffnsore

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PK did you upgrade v1703 to v1803 using Windows Update or an v1803 iso.  I have always wondered if both ways yield the same results in the end as far as default resets, setting changes, etc.

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Windows Update. I have PRO version, so changes not only in the Settings & GUI, but in GPEdit, Services, and RegEdit. They turned on UWP App access back on to the hardware, files, account. They turned back on the login setting up Windows. They turned off System Protection again. A bunch of the tasks I had disabled were re-enabled, and some I no longer had permission to change….The list goes on.

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AlexEiffel, Mr. Natural

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Yeah not surprising unfortunately and probably should be expected. We may continue to see this unless Microsoft launches this windows as a service model. This is a personal decision and I’m diving in head first because I want to see how it all shakes out in the office. This includes how user profiles are affected. Microsoft said it’s good to go so I’m taking full responsibility on this. I mentioned this to our I.S. Director this morning and he agrees with me. Time to establish some common ground here. Everyone else, grab the popcorn and we’ll see how it goes. I’l definitely provide a summary when they are all done.

Red Ruffnsore

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I just had an epiphany. Someone do me favor and read the agreement on using windows as a service. Seems to me this excuses Microsoft if it resets your services with each new “service model”.

OOPS sorry we reset everything. My bad.

Red Ruffnsore

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Hi Susan.

Microsoft has just released the KB4284848 update for the 1803 release of Windows 10. Seems to address one issue with SMBv1.

I remember you saying at one time Microsoft doesn’t seem to have a “consistent” schedule when releasing updates for certain versions of Windows 10.

edit: I found the link to what you said about “consistency” here.

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PKCano

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I’ve nearly finished pushing 1803 via WSUS to all windows 10 systems and a few things stand out. Hopefully this will help if anyone considers pushing. Woody’s advice is the best advice as always. Wait or maybe try a few test pushes if you’re curious.

The majority of these systems were still on 1703 and another group was on 1709. Pretty much all Dell optiplex SFF boxes around 3 – 4 years old and various Dell Latitude E series laptops all either relatively new or no older than 3 years old. Some with spinning hard drives, others with SSD’s and the new ones with SSD M.2 drives. They all installed 1803 and no nic issues, no hardware issues or any system failures. However one issue remains and I continue to see this with every windows 10 version upgrade ever since 1511. The version upgrade is installed but windows update breaks after that and the cummulative update for 1803 KB4284835 (or corresponding cummulative update for which ever version) fails to install with a windows update error. This doesn’t always happen to every machine but definitely 50% or more.

It’s a relatively easy fix that can be done remotely but it is a time consuming process. Reset the windows update catalog on each pc with the problem. It’s quick and dirty but works. Very large organizations may need to hire someone or maybe a script wizard could figure out something.

Anyway I access services remotely on a pc through services.msc and map the c: drive of the computer. Stop BITS (background intelligent transfer service), cryptographic services and windows update. Then rename or delete the software distribution folder in c:\windows, and restart the 3 services. This will erase the installation history on the computer but that doesn’t bother me. It does fix the issue and then computers are able to finish installing all remaining updates.

I updated group policy in AD to the 1803 template released in May. After doing that I ran into a couple of errors when opening gpedit but did not affect the workings. They were old references from the prior template. I mentioned the issues and fixes in another thread back in May. I let the policy distribute to all DC’s and then started testing a push to a dozen or so machines after a few days and then began the complete push a couple of weeks ago.

In my situation no broken machines other than windows update breaking after the update. I don’t know if it’s an issue with machines in AD but like I said I’ve run into this with every version upgrade and I don’t see that nearly as much on standalone systems but does occur sometimes. Quite honestly I would say anyone upgrading may run into this, keep in mind how to fix.

Also important to note. None of the users on the network experienced any profile resets or changes in their prior settings. Resetting or erasing a user profile only seems to be an issue with standalone computers and probably a good chance that will occur for those folks. So for whatever reason user profiles on AD are not affected. Amazingly no one complained during the entire process. I mentioned previously a lot of the update occurs in the background while users work and the only wait period is the reboot process. Around 30 minutes or so of downtime.

So whatever these service stack updates are doing, they don’t seem to be fixing this one issue I continue to run into. But users seem unaffected and no complaints. The only issues I came across were behind the scenes stuff that I had to fix myself and no urgent issues relating to any user downtime other than the reboot process. That’s it I guess, be warned. YMMV

Red Ruffnsore

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