Once more unto the breach: Win10 1809 starts rolling out again

Topic

New Reply

It’s official. Microsoft has started rolling out Win10 version 1809 today, according to its original schedule. Last week we paused the rollout of the
[See the full post at: Once more unto the breach: Win10 1809 starts rolling out again]

3 users thanked author for this post.

abbodi86, GreatAndPowerfulTech, PhotM

Reply | Quote

Replies

This is currently just for Insiders, right? I about had a heart attack thinking they were releasing it for everyone already… (though I still might if I turn out to be incorrect)

Reply | Quote

Same anon as #223236, as an addendum, I don’t have a doctorate in Computerstuff and I am having difficulty understanding the issues… I’m not even sure what KFR is or if I’ve utilized it already. It seems like if I haven’t, then all should be well, but I don’t know enough to say.

Reply | Quote

Not knowing about KFR is what put those user files among the disappeared. I’d probably be in big trouble now if they had pushed 1809 on me already.

I’m from the age when user files have precious data created with blood, sweat, and tears, meant to be stored for, oh, I don’t know, maybe forever.

Getting a new computer meant more than just downloading your favorite iTunes from the cloud. It meant carefully transferring the documents, photos, programs, custom spreadsheets, what have you to the new machine. There was no cloud. There was no internet.

KFR, I just learned today, is apparently where Microsoft expects to find user data. And 1809 just bulldozed any files that weren’t where Microsoft wanted them to be.

Reply | Quote

So basically what they’re saying is….. if you told Windows your “Documents” directory is located at D:\Documents\, but you still kept all your documents in C:\users\warren\Documents\, then you got hosed.

I mean…..  sure, deleting non-empty directories is definitely not the right thing to do — bad Microsoft! — but it sure smells like a case of people misconfiguring their computers, then wondering why their computer misbehaves.

 

Reply | Quote

Remember though, at least fourteen different insiders also reported this activity prior to release. @b shared the links. These also may have been confirmed by an additional number of up votes. But not enough to be pushed up the line.

5 users thanked author for this post.

GreatAndPowerfulTech, Elly, fk5353, lurks about, woody

Reply | Quote

Which may be improved now:

To help us better detect issues like this, today we have enabled a new feature in the Windows Insider Feedback Hub. We have added an ability for users to also provide an indication of impact and severity when filing User Initiated Feedback. We expect this will allow us to better monitor the most impactful issues even when feedback volume is low.

(Penultimate paragraph at Updated version of Windows 10 October 2018 Update released to Windows Insiders)

Reply | Quote

Like you, I suspect, I’m skeptical.

2 users thanked author for this post.

GreatAndPowerfulTech, fk5353

Reply | Quote

Just because you load a blank in one barrel, that shouldn’t mean you should have to be worried about the second barrel of your shotgun firing backwards into your face.

This whole mess just exemplifies how completely insufficient the testing Windows is getting is, how terrible it is at adapting to any sort of user customization of the system, and how little respect MS has for users in general at this point.  I shouldn’t have to be worried about Windows deleting my stuff just because I don’t like their default folder structure.

It’s WaaS in a nutshell.  Windows 10 is apparently written to be managed by Microsoft, for Microsoft, and the users need to keep their filthy hands off of it for it to function as intended (provided it functions at all).

 

5 users thanked author for this post.

johnf, radosuaf, HiFlyer, fk5353, Latka

Reply | Quote

 

Don’t blame the user when the O.S. makes user files disappear. There is no law that says users must keep their document files in the default locations.

Some users are not too young to remember the days when users controlled their own hardware and software. Files stayed where you chose to save them. MS-DOS 1.01, for example, did not save documents to default subdirectories (Hint for the younger ones: there were no subdirectories back then.)

More recently, I remember default folder names changing from Windows version to version, and even when new service packs installed. Default file locations changed from place to place between Win95, and WinME, to WinXP. Sometimes it was “my downloads,” other times it was “downloads.”

I usually copied the various users’ directories from the older computer to the newer computer every time a new machine arrived in the household, resulting in a confusing tree of subdirectories with names like “Joe from Compaq” or “Jan from Gateway2K” filled with the old default user folders.

It wasn’t me who was “misplacing” user files in places where the O.S. didn’t expect them to be. It was me putting my files where I knew I could find them, and where idiots like myself wouldn’t accidently delete them. The concept of the upgrade process itself handling my user documents and determining appropriate locations to store my files is foreign to me.

It’s a good thing I have my metered connections so 1809 will pass me by, because I am likely to have a few files tucked away where Microsoft doesn’t want them to be. I don’t know how to find out what the current Known Folder Redirection settings are, and I’m not sure I could find all of my user documents subdirectories.

2 users thanked author for this post.

HiFlyer, Cybertooth

Reply | Quote

I’ve got to disagree with the idea that it’s “misconfigured”. Microsoft even recommends moving personal files to another drive here.

There are also devices being sold with a whopping 32GB of internal storage space. I can see those requiring folders being redirected to external storage as standard.
I remember Susan had issues getting an update to install at all, and she had to provide extra storage space.

Reply | Quote

That feature is supposed to move the files to the new (redirected) location and (once done) create a symlink from the old location to the new one. When it doesn’t work, it’s called a bug.

Reply | Quote

Reports of data deletion should have been a show stopper for any more releases until fixed when it was first reported. This is basic QA. There are issues, no matter how rare, if they are reported they should be automatic show stoppers to be thoroughly investigated and fixed before continuing. The number of ‘votes’ is irrelevant, that fact the event occurred is enough. I say this as a former QA manager (not in IT); there always certain issues that are automatic show stoppers in any industry that must be fixed immediately and the root cause determined toot suit. Customers deserve as much.

3 users thanked author for this post.

GreatAndPowerfulTech, fk5353, flackcatcher

Reply | Quote

Yes, yes, but this is Microsoft.

We use the good old try & error & try & error & try (ad nauseam when needed)…

Reply | Quote

IMHO there is no justification for Microsoft’s upgrade process to delete ANY user profile folders and related content that do not reside in a known location documented to be used for temporary working files.

Seems like common sense to me, something that Microsoft sorely lacks.

Reply | Quote

I do agree with you, but wish to steer your thinking slightly. What you say is common sense in an ethical environment. Some business decisions do not abide common ethics. What we have here is the result of Microsoft Sense.

And it did not happen in a single meeting or a day. This willful ignorance — literally ignored reports from insiders — spans most of the development phase.

Reply | Quote

“I do agree with you, but wish to steer your thinking slightly.”

Perhaps you meant “twist”, not “steer”?

Reply | Quote

Please stay on topic and Please follow the –Lounge Rules–

Reply | Quote

anonymous wrote:

IMHO there is no justification for Microsoft’s upgrade process to delete ANY user profile folders and related content that do not reside in a known location documented to be used for temporary working files. Seems like common sense to me, something that Microsoft sorely lacks.

Basic marketing: Businesses exist primarily to make profit (if they don’t make a profit, they are on track to non-existence).

You can be assured Microsoft would have reviewed the issue using business sense. To us,  delivering reliable systems and keeping customers happy makes sense. To MS executives, maximising profit makes sense, even if that leads to alienating some users. Inputs vs Outputs: What does it cost and what is the likely outcome in terms of loss of customer base and profit margin?

Group A (but Telemetry disabled Tasks and Registry)
1) Dell Inspiron with Win 11 64 Home permanently in dock due to "sorry spares no longer made".
2) Dell Inspiron with Win 11 64 Home (substantial discount with Pro version available only at full price)

Reply | Quote

The hilarity, if it wasn’t so miserable for the affected users, continues in true M$ fashion.
OK so its back again and with the perils glossed over by some how trivialising the numbers affected, begs the question how many suffered in silence and shrugged their shoulders and wrote off the missing data as just another thing? any way I digress so for the uninitiated off to the Download page what version are you going to get??
11763.1 (They wouldn’t dare would they??)
11763.17 (surely not its a slow ring release not RTM??)
11763.55 (complete with todays Cumm. update that makes no mention of a fix in any of the blurb that went with it)

@Woody succinctly put it there’s the 3 versions floating around and I can find nothing about it in all the M$ pages on the issue except, just don’t use the original and wait for the new one, cool which new one are we getting??
As for me I have just have the original saved 11763.1 and I just changed the label on the .ISO to “Win 10 1809 x64 (NOT FOR UPGRADE OR REINSTALL)”
Come on M$ lets have some transparency here, you dropped the ball now just be straight and honest with us and given time some may “forgive and forget” one things for sure, you haven’t convinced me to try an upgrade in place from my normal clean install policy, not sure your ever going to either after this little stunt.

Reply | Quote

woody wrote:

Just as an admittedly snarky side note… read the description of the problem in the official post, and think to yourself, “If I didn’t have a doctorate in Computerstuff, could I understand this?”

Does everyone need to understand it?

We can’t really whine about transparency when they don’t give us full details, and also complain that it’s too complex when they do.

Reply | Quote

All providers must have the capability to communicate clearly to their client, all the way down to an end user. Some do it better than others, and all are judged by their capacity. Doctors must give information to patients. Auto mechanics must answer a driver’s questions.

Reviewing and offering criticism on how well a company performs to satisfy their customers is legitimate discourse.

We can’t really whine about transparency when they don’t give us full details, and also complain that it’s too complex when they do.

So yes, yes we can.

Reply | Quote

Here’s an explanation for people with only [edited] in Computerstuff.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/10/microsoft-fixes-october-update-file-deleting-bug-resumes-insider-testing/

2 users thanked author for this post.

Noel Carboni, Elly

Reply | Quote

Here’s an even simpler reduction of the explanation…

April update bug created new extra, empty folders

October update had code for deleting these, but got the “construction sequence” backwards, ie deleting folders before creating the new ones…

_______

That the deleting is taking place without checking for content is really odd, as when a user creates KRF, he/she is asked, if content in folders shall be moved to new location….

In previous feedback from the Windows 10 April 2018 Update, users with KFR reported an extra, empty copy of Known Folders on their device. Based on feedback from users, we introduced code in the October 2018 Update to remove these empty, duplicate known folders. That change, combined with another change to the update construction sequence, resulted in the deletion of the original “old” folder locations and their content, leaving only the new “active” folder intact.

Reply | Quote

b wrote:

Does everyone need to understand it?

We can’t really whine about transparency when they don’t give us full details, and also complain that it’s too complex when they do.

Some observations:

1. Microsoft’s use of Microsoft terms as though they are plain language is a social engineering move to inure everyone in the Microsoft world. That helps their bottom line in any number of ways.

2. The explanations I’ve read from Microsoft on this issue don’t seem terribly difficult to understand – granted I DO have a degree AND a bunch of decades of experience. But still, I didn’t find the text terribly geeky. Go read some sample C++ interview questions online if you want to feel humble.

3. Of course we can complain. Hardly anything mankind has done can’t be done better or more thoroughly. That being said, investment managers are also free to complain that too much effort (expense) is being put in to telling users things they don’t really need to know. And THEY’RE the ones in control of the paychecks.

-Noel

1 user thanked author for this post.

Latka

Reply | Quote

We few, we happy few.  We band of brothers.

Reply | Quote