Nvidia Driver Update: Moderate/ High Severity Flaw

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Heads-up for those out there with nvidia graphics cards: IMPORTANT

NVIDIA has released a GPU display driver security update today, February 28, 2020, that fixes high and medium severity vulnerabilities that might lead to code execution, local escalation of privileges, information disclosure, and denial of service on unpatched Windows computers..

extract from bleeping computer article by Sergiu Gatlan.
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/nvidia-fixes-high-severity-flaw-in-windows-gpu-display-driver/

various CVE’s within the article and especially CVE2020-5957 which has a base score of 8.4
Description of issue DoS:

NVIDIA Windows GPU Display Driver contains a vulnerability in the NVIDIA Control Panel component in which an attacker with local system access can corrupt a system file, which may lead to denial of service or escalation of privileges.

my bolding

Download links within the bleeping computer article.

Looks like a busy weekend ahead MS patching AND updating nvidia video drivers.

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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None of which are likely to affect me, drivers only installs here (aka no bloatware) so I’ll wait a few more update cycles

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Mr. Austin, Kirsty, Microfix

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Here’s the security bulletin for those interested:

Security Bulletin– NVIDIA GPU Display Driver – February 2020

I have a couple of computers that I’ve been remiss in GPU updating, so I’ll be joining Microfix.

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Drivers only here too (installation via device manager) no bloatware/telemetry etc..
I usually extract the specific driver from the extracted driver update package once decompressed and the redundancy bloatware is not installed, keeping the system clean and lean.

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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satrow

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[Carl]

I don’t go to that extreme anymore. I install the driver and PhysX only – none of that other stuff. Even though the Display Container service now drives the telemetry, I haven’t observed a whole lot of leakage, especially since European privacy laws went into effect.

On my Win 10 hardware I do NOT install DCH drivers. Seems like nVidia is pushing this to unsuspecting users to appease Microsoft. I see many reports of “where’s the control panel”. I only install old style drivers available through the advanced search option on the nVidia site.

nVidia hidden downloads

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Carl.

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Ascaris, satrow, Microfix

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“attacker with local system access” being the major reason it won’t affect you.

cheers, Paul

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JohnW

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Carl wrote:

the Display Container service now drives the telemetry

Disabled for months here on W7.

Paul T wrote:

“attacker with local system access” being the major reason it won’t affect you.

Yeah, right:

While these security flaws require would-be attackers to have local user access, they can also be abused via malicious tools remotely dropped on systems running vulnerable NVIDIA GPU display drivers.

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Microfix

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Has been patched on Feb. 27 ( my 1050ti got version 442.50).

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These occasional security scares over graphics drivers are a pain, especially for gamers. Graphics drivers need to be thoroughly tested both for temperature control and obiously graphic quality including full compatibility with whatever games may be running. It’s less critical for other users, but I personally don’t do regular driver updates and stick to the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” approach to any drivers that run everything on my machine flawlessly. There’s questionable benefit in fixing a theoretical security flaw if by doing so you reduce the machine’s actual performance in one way or another.

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Mr. Austin

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Seff wrote:

There’s questionable benefit in fixing a theoretical security flaw if by doing so you reduce the machine’s actual performance in one way or another.

New GPU drivers from Nvidia, AMD usually add support for new games and fix bugs too.
The latest from Nvidia 442.50 WHQL Gamer driver:

Fixed Issues:

[Apex Legends]: The game may crash with error DXGI_ERROR_DEVICE_HUNG 0x887A0006. [2679551]
[Mortal Kombat]: The game may randomly crash to the desktop without error [2813996]
[Zombie Army: Dead War 4][Vulkan][HDR]:Corrupted flickering occurs when in-game HDR is enabled. [200585136]
[Battleye][Low-Latency Mode]: Launching Battleye with NVIDIA Low Latency Mode set to Ultra may cause DWM to reset. [2834199]
[Twitch Studio]: The app shows corruption when Image Sharpening is enabled globally from the NVIDIA Control Panel [2811830]
Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed crashes when playing in a water level. [2826669]
[Zombie Army: Dead War 4][Vulkan]: Game may flicker when in-game HDR is enabled. [200585136]
[Red Dead Redemption 2][Vulkan]: Random crashes occur during gameplay on Pascal and older GPUs.[2822927]

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I agree Alex, but they usually break as many things as they fix (where have we heard that before?!) so if everything is running well then there’s no reason to change.  For example, the fixes you listed all address things broken in previous driver updates.

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I’m not a gamer, but I understand the frustration gamers experience when drivers fix one thing, but break another. New drivers do add support for new games, however.

It’s a good idea to view the release notes prior to deciding whether or not to update. They are quite readable – nVidia does a good job revealing what’s new, broken, fixed, and added with each release. The decision to update depends on the use case. For example, I run very demanding CPU/GPU simulation software that generally won’t see much benefit if an update only adds profiles for newly released games.

I always update if any of the following is true, however:

1) security fixes
2) PhysX updates
3) features that may improve simulation performance

In my opinion, driver security fixes are especially important if running older computers that may have unsupported hardware. Old school folk (me) view everything in terms of attack vectors. The more you close, the better. Granted, if a security flaw requires local access, you have other problems to worry about. But keep in mind that a hacker who manages to drop a baddie on your computer can use some driver flaws to escalate privileges to that of the logged-in user. (Dumb people like me who often don’t switch to a STD user account.)

You might want to check nVidia security bulletins on occasion:
nVidia Bulletin List

This FAQ sheet will be of interest to those who haven’t seen it before:
NVIDIA DCH/Standard Display Drivers for Windows 10 FAQ

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Mele20, Seff

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Just a thought: could MS taking over the NV Control Panel be for the same security reasons that led to MS taking over Flash for W10? Flash used to be one of the biggest, at times the #1, targets for breaking into Windows’ kernel/Ring 0 remotely, usually via the Windows graphics subsystem.

Could the NV bloatware (it’s not the drivers at fault!) have been causing MS too much grief recently as in taking over the #1 ‘dangerous to Windows’ kernel’ spot?

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Not likely. nVidia makes multiple versions of Windows drivers for each release:

1) DCH – these use the new Windows 8, 10 driver model (Windows Store)
2) Standard – the long established older driver model
3) Studio – very stable, not optimized for gaming

Most people prefer the standard driver since it doesn’t rely on the MS store. It is optimized for performance, has new game profiles, and the latest bells and whistles.

The bloatware I think you’re referring to is the GE Force Experience which is geared toward gamers and is entirely optional. Additionally, one can choose which components to install or update, i.e. driver, PhysX software, HD audio, control panel, etc.

The reason the download package is so big is because all of this is crammed into it.

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Carl wrote:

Not likely. nVidia makes multiple versions of Windows drivers for each release:

It’s not the drivers at fault! Despite the title and descriptions for these CVE’s and subsequent reports, it’s the Control Panel bloatware that was flagged up as flawed.

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Microfix

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1) The nVidia security bulletin clearly states:

“GPU Display Driver contains a vulnerability in the NVIDIA Control Panel”

See: nVidia Security Bulletin – February 2020

nVidia is always upfront when disclosing vulnerabilities. They cannot afford to do otherwise since their GPUs are used by government/university supercomputers worldwide.

2) The Control Panel is NOT bloatware. It consumes 28 MB of disk space on my computer. You are confusing it with the optional “Experience” software which targets gamers. This is bloatware for most techies.

3) Every consumer video card manufacturer includes some form of (optional) “control panel” so that the GPU can be configured to their individual requirements.

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Carl wrote:

1) The nVidia security bulletin clearly states:

“GPU Display Driver contains a vulnerability in the NVIDIA Control Panel”

See: nVidia Security Bulletin – February 2020

nVidia is always upfront when disclosing vulnerabilities. They cannot afford to do otherwise since their GPUs are used by government/university supercomputers worldwide.

2) The Control Panel is NOT bloatware. It consumes 28 MB of disk space on my computer. You are confusing it with the optional “Experience” software which targets gamers. This is bloatware for most techies.

3) Every consumer video card manufacturer includes some form of (optional) “control panel” so that the GPU can be configured to their individual requirements.

1) “NVIDIA Windows GPU Display Driver contains a vulnerability in the NVIDIA Control Panel component in which an attacker with local system access can corrupt a system file, which may lead to denial of service or escalation of privileges.”

So not the GPU drivers but the control panel, which isn’t a basic requirement.

2 + 3) “(optional)” = not required, unlike drivers, so bloatware.

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Carl wrote:

Not likely. nVidia makes multiple versions of Windows drivers for each release:

1) DCH – these use the new Windows 8, 10 driver model (Windows Store)
2) Standard – the long established older driver model
3) Studio – very stable, not optimized for gaming

I believe the Standard still needs the Control Panel to effect settings other than basic Windows settings. Now please correct me if I am wrong I am still trying to figure this out. For a firmware update the GForce bloat ware is the only option.

How does one go about finding the Studio version of the Drivers/software??

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

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You’re almost there Kathy. Use the link below to locate the driver suitable for your video card:

nVidia Driver Advanced Search

For reasons unknown (I suspect pressure from Microsoft), nVidia makes it difficult to find the download page where Standard, Studio, and beta drivers are located.

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In my experience, nVidia does not make it difficult to find the download page where Standard, Studio, and beta drivers are located.

When I updated my driver I opened Firefox, did a DuckDuckGo search for nvidia, and went to the their support page, clicked on drivers https://www.geforce.com/drivers.

From there I did a Manual Drive Search for my NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 (3 GB) video card  [GrForce>GeForce 10 Series>GeForce GTX 1060>Windows 10 64-bit,English] and selected Studio Driver?

And downloaded and installed the driver – no fuss no bother.

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In the past (windows 10, on an nvidia optimus laptop) I had some problems with an nvidia driver install.  I’d suggest a drive image first before doing an update.

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[Kathy Stevens]

Updated the driver for my NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 (3 GB) a couple of hours ago.

The PC has an Intel Core i7-8700 processor; 16 GB of memory; and is running Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, 1903, build 18632.657.

Process was straight forward. Went to the NVIDIA site, then drivers. Used Manual Drive Search and entered the appropriate descriptive data in the fields provided. In the last field I selected “Studio Driver” since I use the machine for graphics related work – no gaming.

Had the option of installing one of eight drivers dating back to March 20, 2019. I selected the NVIDIA STUDIO DRIVER with a release date of Feb 03, 2020.

The download, “… includes the NVIDIA display driver and GeForce Experience application.” During the install process I had the option of installing the driver and GeForce or the driver alone.  I installed only the driver.

Installation took a couple of minutes. No problems so far.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Kathy Stevens.

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wavy

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Kathy Stevens wrote:

Updated the driver for my NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 (3 GB) a couple of hours ago. The PC has an Intel Core i7-8700 processor; 16 GB of memory; and is running Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, 1903, build 18632.657. Process was straight forward. Went to the NVIDIA site, then drivers. Used Manual Drive Search and entered the appropriate descriptive data in the fields provided. In the last field I selected “Studio Driver” since I use the machine for graphics related work – no gaming. Had the option of installing one of eight drivers dating back to March 20, 2019. I selected the NVIDIA STUDIO DRIVER with a release date of Feb 03, 2020.

I have similar specs (6GB vs 3GB) and working through this myself.

If I follow what you selected, the Studio Driver dated Feb 3 has a version number 442.19. The bulletin says the needed updated driver version is 442.50 of which there is only the Feb 27 “Game Ready Driver – WHQL” that I see.

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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Carl wrote:

DCH – these use the new Windows 8, 10 driver model (Windows Store)

Nvidia DCH drivers just like Intel DCH drivers are not tied to Microsoft Store.
Just download the drivers directly from Nvidia, Intel.

https://www.nvidia.com/Download/driverResults.aspx/157540/en-us

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/29426/Intel-Graphics-Windows-10-DCH-Drivers?product=80939

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nVidia DCH drivers ARE most certainly tied to the Microsoft Store. DCH drivers use a UWP Control panel (not W32) which is only available from the MS store. It is NOT part of the DCH driver installation package.

nVidia states:

“Per Microsoft requirements, the NVIDIA Control Panel is no longer included in the base DCH driver package and is instead distributed exclusively through the Microsoft Store.”

See: Display Drivers for Windows 10 FAQ

Here’s where you may be confused. The link you provided above will download the DCH version of the driver. Note that “dch” is part of the file name. Up until November, nVidia provided standard or studio drivers on that download page. After that, only DCH drivers are available unless an advanced search is conducted. Note the file name differences below.

Standard Driver:
442.50-notebook-win10-64bit-international-dch-whql.exe
DCH Driver
442.50-notebook-win10-64bit-international-whql.exe

In December, if you installed the DCH driver over an existing standard driver using a local account, your old Control Panel would still be present unless you did a “Clean Install” which would result in no Control Panel at all. The drivers would update, but not the Control Panel. You must be logged into your MS Account when installing DCH drivers so that the installer package can retrieve the latest UWP version of the control panel from the MS Store. This is done silently in the background during installation.

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I am confused.

What am I downloading and installing when I go to NVIDIA’s site at  https://www.geforce.com/drivers and do a Manual Drive Search for my NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 (3 GB) vidio card  [GrForce>GeForce 10 Series>GeForce GTX 1060>Windows 10 64-bit,English] and select Studio Driver?

I do not see any reference to the Microsoft Store.

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You’ll get the dch driver there. If you want standard search here https://www.nvidia.com/Download/Find.aspx?lang=en-us

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Installing a DCH driver, without user interaction, installs the driver and a UWP control panel.  During installation, the UWP control panel is automatically installed from the Microsoft store.  This will be invisible to most users, but if you have tweaked Windows to really block the store, or you install while you are not online, you might end up without a control panel or otherwise failed installation.

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Carl wrote:

nVidia DCH drivers ARE most certainly tied to the Microsoft Store

They are not.
I always download directly from Nvidia (like I do with Intel) without any connection to Microsoft’s store and I have the Nvidia control panel install too.
I have done this since getting Windows 10 in August 2018.

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Paul T wrote:

“attacker with local system access” being the major reason it won’t affect you.

cheers, Paul

Exactly. No need to panic.

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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anonymous wrote:

if you have tweaked Windows to really block the store,

Microsoft store is blocked on my Windows 10 and I have no problems downloading and installing the DCH driver with control panel.

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Alex, the driver package will install as mentioned above. Read my post further up which contains a statement from nVidia.

DCH drivers silently retrieve the UWP version of Control Panel from the Windows Store. If you really have the Store “blocked”, then you do NOT have the version with the security mitigations. The Control Panel is not part of the DCH installation package. What you likely have is a 2019 W32 version of Control Panel (e.g. 8.1.940.0). If not, then Windows Store is not blocked.

The Control Panel will not be uninstalled when doing a driver update unless you select the option “Clean Install”. Without this option checked, nVidia does not remove the prior installation. This is so a driver can be “rolled back” if need be. I always do a clean install because I retain previous installation packages on my system.

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@Kathy – Now I see why you’re confused. It’s not your fault.

If you go to the “Advanced Driver Search” page and search for your 1060 card, the list of current Windows 10 Studio drivers has Driver SD version 442.19 dated February 3. The SD means “standard”. This driver version does NOT have the security mitigations.

What’s probably going on is nVidia has not finished certification of the newer 442.50 Studio driver yet. Since this is an out-of-band patch, and it’s the weekend, nVidia is probably waiting to receive telemetry and feedback from the “game ready” (guinea pig) version.

If you’re concerned about the security issue, then you can install “GeForce Game Ready Driver WHQL – 442.50 February 27, 2020” for now until the Studio driver version is released. The “WHQL” in the file name means it has passed the Windows certification requirements.

The “Game Ready” version contains game profiles that are not used if you don’t play games. Geeks often use a separate computer application called nVidia Inspector to tweak those profiles for individual games.

nVidia Inspector

You need not be concerned with that if your primary objective is stability versus games. You can install the Studio version over the Game Ready version and vice-versa.

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Carl wrote:

The SD means “standard”

Now I’m getting confused.  Per the link you provided, the “?” by the Recommended/Beta selection block show the “SD” means Studio Driver not Standard.

There is a Window Driver Type selection block higher up to select Standard or DCH.

Can you confirm that “Drivers” downloaded from your link provides the full selectable option drivers package to select items from (like before the DCH issue) – not just the graphics driver?

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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Sorry Tex. My wording was confusing. I should have used either the abbreviation “STD” (Standard) or “SD” (Standard Driver) exclusively or at least consistently. My faux pax.

Use the “Windows Driver Type:” drop down box to select either “Standard” or “DCH” before clicking “Search”. You can’t tell by the file description alone which is which.

You can verify the download by looking at the file name. DCH drivers have -dch- in the filename. Standard drivers do not.

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Also note that the Standard Drivers have a slightly different interface than drivers released before November.

Go slow because the 1st screen will have a green “Agree and Continue” button, but the default is to install both the Driver AND GeForce Experience. If you install the GeForce Experience you will:

1) get bloatware I don’t think you want
2) will be agreeing to telemetry

Make sure you select the “nVidia Graphics Driver” button before clicking “Agree”. On the following screen (Installation Options), you probably want to select “Custom (Advanced)” before continuing as this will allow you to select what you want to install and optionally do a clean install (checkbox).

A clean install will remove the bloatware and the previous installation from “C:\Program Files” (saving disk space). I don’t delete the older downloaded installation packages until I’m sure the one I am currently installing succeeds and survives a reboot.

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Thanks

I will keep the Studio Driver for now and check in with NVIDIA periodically for the update.

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Carl wrote:

The Control Panel is not part of the DCH installation package. What you likely have is a 2019 W32 version of Control Panel (e.g. 8.1.940.0). If not, then Windows Store is not blocked.

Microsoft’s store is blocked from downloading from day 1 with Windows 10.
I suppose it covers downloading anything related to Nvidia driver as well.

I have version 8.1.956.0 of Control Panel installed.

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Out of curiosity Alex, can you check the date on this file:

C:\Program Files\NVIDIA Corporation\Control Panel Client\nvcplui.exe

Are you downloading drivers from the main nVidia download page, the Advanced Search page, or 3rd party Tech site? Third party sites (e.g. Guru) usually only list SD drivers.

Also, how are you attempting to block Windows Store? Metered connections, local account, firewall, hosts file? A hosts file block likely won’t be effective for DCH driver installs.

The last couple of times I attempted to install DCH drivers using a local account with egress filtering of nVidia, the driver installed, but then an nVidia error message was displayed saying it couldn’t access the MS Store. I ended up with no Control Panel because I had done a clean (custom) install. This is on a computer that has no Microsoft Account associated with it (never signed in with a MS account).

If you have GEForce Experience installed (ughh), then everything is taken care of for you behind the scenes. This is the default, by the way.

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[Carl]

Alex, at the top of page 4 of the release notes for driver version 442.50, nVidia states:

Standard NVIDIA Control Panel – 8.1.940.0
DCH NVIDIA Control Panel – 8.1.956.0

Release Notes – v442.5

Apparently your Windows Store blocking isn’t working.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Carl. Reason: typo

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Interesting discovery while updating Standard drivers on one of my Win 10 computers. I have an application firewall enabled that blocks egress from nVidia components. At the end of the driver installation, my firewall displayed a notification that “NVDisplay.Container.exe” was attempting to contact an external server.

The installation was fine – nVidia didn’t throw an error exception. But, can we say telemetry anyone?

The Control Panel GUI “nvcplui.exe” has a date of 2/24/20 for v442.50.

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Mr. Austin

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Carl wrote:

But, can we say telemetry anyone?

I thought you already did?

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I’m certain that this is just sending success/fail metrics to nVidia at the end of the installation process. During day-to-day use, I see no indication of telemetry being sent to nVidia.

I’m reasonably sure that if I had an nVidia driver crash, however, it would likely attempt to send some metrics. I can’t say for certain because I’ve not had a driver crash, or reset, on any of my nVidia machines therefore, no firewall alerts/logging.

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Mr. Austin

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I have to correct myself. I just did a SD driver install on a Win 7 Ult computer with firewall egress filtering disabled. The “setup.exe” file phones home during installation. The installer does take a computer/sw inventory to determine driver compatibility – could be doing a real-time check against a database. Next time I do another installation, I’ll have to block this behavior just to see what happens. Think I’ll also put a network monitor on-line to see who the remote server is and how many bytes are downloaded/uploaded.

Also, the update did not change the Control Panel version number on either Win 10 or 7, just the date (Pascal, Kepler, Maxwell – don’t have any Turing cards to test).

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[Mele20]

I’ve been very happy with GeForce Experience on Windows 10 (but don’t have it on my Windows 8 machine). There is some telemetry but it greatly simplifies the driver update experience. It told me yesterday that there was a driver update. I didn’t do it and glad I didn’t.

My question is will GeForce Experience install the STANDARD new driver or will it install this new Microsoft junk? No way do I want the Microsoft junk. I want the nVidia panel (which I gather the Microsoft drivers havetrouble with on Windows 10 and it often doesn’t get installed). The nVidia panel is the major reason I have nVidia all these years because I want digital vibrance which without it colors really suck on my desktops.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Mele20.

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Don’t touch this driver.
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/game-ready-drivers/13/344852/geforce-44250-game-ready-driver-feedback-thread-re/

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[Mr. Austin]

Although it might eventually be useful to know about this security update, Nvidia’s obtuse update process is unnecessarly off-putting and takes more time than should ever be necessary. If they wanted to make their updates automated and available via their own website’s software checker applet they could. Intel does it. Microsoft does it. It ain’t a complex idea.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Mr. Austin.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Mr. Austin.

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[Alex5723]

Mr. Austin wrote:

If they wanted to make their updates automated and available via their own website’s software checker applet they could.

There is NVIDIA GeForce Experience which will notify on new updates or you can check manually.
Automated updates of software, drivers.. are abominable.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Alex5723.

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Alex5723 wrote:

NVIDIA GeForce Experience

Great recommendation, 12 vulnerabilities found and fixed in NGE 2016-2018 plus 9 during 2019, something else to keep patching/fearing.

https://www.cvedetails.com/product/35005/Nvidia-Geforce-Experience.html?vendor_id=5264 + 2019 list.

[Edited to update #s + URL for 2019.]

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[Mr. Austin]

Alex5723 wrote:

Automated updates of software, drivers.. are abominable.

Thanks. I agree. At the same time my attitude about them is that I let automated security updates proceed. The social contract they strike with me is that I’ll use their stuff and it’s their job to actually do their job.

But I won’t depend on software publishers to do right by me, or anyone’s machine I manage. I let automated software updates proceed. Yet I still cover my bottom with disk imaging, mutiple back-ups in different locations, and anti-telemetry softwares. And I also don’t post my complete security strategies on public fora. Machine learning and the eventual AI could eventually create security holes from that.

An interesting example in a closely-related mobile scene? It’s like having a car which needs software updates, which I have. Ford’s Fusion Energi modem went down because Ford mysteriously changed some server communications settings. In turn that broke both all that models modems, and also broke the smartphone app functions Ford sold everyone. It also slowed the car’s clock display by around 2 minutes per month.

Virtually everyone dogged on Ford for this in scathing app reviews. One my own reviews about them said that their smartphone app was a “garbage fire”. But Ford never fixed the app even after it replace my car’s modem. Instead, the news reports are that Ford opted to cancel production of the model.

But ultimately no one, and no company will do something they don’t want to do, even if they agreed to stand by it. So my policies are based on multiple redundancies. Trust them, but verify and have alternative plans in place.

I’ve many stories about this. There was the time a company owner brought his company to his knees for several days because, he said, he asked a teenager to hack into our server. So the server became a lovely hardware brick with a totally corrupted OS. All of our employees sat idly, without being able to work, for around four days. In this I could have held the man at arm’s length for quite a tidy, mid-five figure or even six-figure sum. I talked about with a very close friend. But I didn’t hold him out for the ransom his nefarious character deserved. I instead had him pay me up front to bring the server back on-line. Then four hours later the server was up and running again. Their were witnesses. Including a pleasant, much more experienced IT guy than me. When I was done he said, “I’ve never seen anyone actually restore a server that quickly.” I still know how to reach him.

 

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Mr. Austin.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Mr. Austin.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Mr. Austin.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Mr. Austin.

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As mentioned earlier, we have an HP computer with a NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 (3 GB) video card.

Out of curiosity, I went to the HP support site to see if they had an updated driver for the machine.

The result was a single driver –

“NVIDIA GeForce Graphics Driver (Windows 10 v1709)  24.21.13.9836  Rev.A   650.1 MB Nov 8, 2018

Driver-Graphics Version:  24.21.13.9836 Rev.A

Operating systems:  Windows 10 (64-bit)

Release date:  Nov 8, 2018

File name: sp92573.exe”

Any thoughts as to why HP has not updated its driver support?

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Not selling that machine anymore so it’s not worth spending money on?

cheers, Paul

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Paul

That is not the case.

The computer is just a year old and HP has continued to support the machine including updating the:

1. BIOS (Dec 6, 2019),
2. Intel Management Engine Interface (Feb 11, 2020), and
3. Intel Bluetooth Driver  (Dec 2, 2019).

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Kathy Stevens wrote:

HP has continued to support the machine including updating the:

Having owned two different HP machines then I could now offer a reply to your vid driver question. If that was my box, if HP suggested updating the video driver, then I would. If they didn’t suggest it, then I wouldn’t. Why? Because HP has historically tended to be pretty good about integrating mildly-customized drivers for their 3rd party hardware. I generally trust them.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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I agree, HP and its machines have been a solid performers.

My only complaint related to our HP ENVY Desktop – 795-0050 has been the lack of documentation related to the installation of a larger SSD C drive than the original one that was mounted on the motherboard.

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I have 4 HP large screen monitors sitting in front of me right now. No dead pixels and never had a PS brick fail.

Kathy, what I generally do is always keep a copy of the latest drivers available from the manufacturer website, even if out of date, on external USB storage. The OEM has certified those to work with your specific combination of components/chipsets and has the needed inf files.

Intel, nVidia, RealTek and others generally state that their drivers will probably work, but may not include features and modifications that the OEM (e.g. HP) has made – what Michael is talking about. Should you install an updated driver and it catastrophically fails, and you’re unable to rollback to a previous version, you’ll have an HP certified driver on hand that you know should work.

In the case of nVidia, besides public beta testing they do internal testing on common hardware configurations, but they’re not infallible. Graphics drivers have become incredibly complex over the years because GPUs aren’t just used for display purposes. For example, the simulation software I use has a configuration slider that allows offloading of certain math operations from the CPU to GPU. We all know about bitmining which caused the GPU shortage.

In addition to the OEM drivers, I also keep the prior graphics driver from nVidia on-hand just in case the one I’m installing fails for whatever reason even though I’ve never had that happen.

Another tool to keep in your toolbox, or at least bookmark, is called Display Driver Uninstaller (DDU) by WagnardSoft (freeware):

Display Driver Uninstaller

DDU can completely remove both AMD and nVidia drivers which allows you to install a known good driver from scratch. It’s also useful if changing video cards from Team Red to Team Green and vice-versa.

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Carl wrote:

I have 4 HP large screen monitors sitting in front of me right now. No dead pixels and never had a PS brick fail.

Most of the manufacturers of monitors like HP, Dell, Asus, etc., don’t make their own LCD panels.  LG does, and I am not sure if Samsung sells their own branded monitors, but most are using panels made by AU Optronics, LG (or LG Phillips), or one of the other handful of LCD panel manufacturers.  The monitor manufacturers (or laptop manufacturers) do perform the support of such monitors, though, and their policy on replacement for dead or stuck pixels may tell you more about the OEM’s commitment to quality than the initial lack of malfunctioning pixels.

While the LCD panels are manufactured by one of a relatively small number of LCD manufacturers, the other stuff in the monitor (the electronics, the power supply, etc.) are specified by the monitor manufacturer, though those components may also be outsourced.  The older LCD panels often had a PSU onboard, and used a PC-style power cable, but now they tend to use a laptop-style power brick.

Power bricks, also, are typically manufactured by third parties like Delta or Lite-On.  It’s possible that the OEMs can specify things within those bricks that may result in a longer or shorter service life, most especially capacitors.  The same could well apply to the onboard PSUs on older models.

That specifically was the cause of a failure of an LG monitor I have… it is one of the older models (4:3 1280×1024, TN), and when I opened it up, I saw several badly bulging capacitors in the PSU, and these capacitors were from lower-tier manufacturers.

I don’t know if LG manufactured the onboard PSU (I would guess not) or if they outsourced it like they usually do with ‘bricks,’ but they probably specified the use of the cheaper capacitors.  That’s more likely where you’d see a difference in a monitor that was the fault of the non-LCD-making OEM like HP… only in this case, it was LG, which does make its own LCD panels, so go figure.

I ordered some top-tier capacitors from an electronics store and replaced them (desoldering the old ones and swapping in the new ones), and the formerly dead monitor returned to perfect functionality, and is currently the monitor used with my backup server for when I need a local monitor for it.

 

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Reading your post made me recall something. Remember the “bad cap” plague from years back? I had a great Samsung LCD that failed suddenly because of this. Samsung wouldn’t make good since it was out of warranty.

I had always intended to replace the caps, but never got around to it. I think I still have that monitor in storage.

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Carl wrote:

Kathy, what I generally do is always keep a copy of the latest drivers available from the manufacturer website, even if out of date, on external USB storage.

Carl… very cool. I do the same. I didn’t know about WagnardSoft’s DDU and that’s a fabulous idea. Thanks.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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A note about comments made in the nVidia GeForce forums. With every driver release, there are multiple reports of driver failures, performance problems, etc. often by the same individuals in the forum. Keep in mind that these are mostly gamers, overclockers, esoteric configurations, etc. Also look at the childish, non-useful comments that tend to dominate.

The forum is monitored by Manual G. from nVidia, so any posts from him I do pay attention to. He has more patience than I would have. On occasion, nVidia does release a hot fix to address a specific problem affecting some users and they will be listed there. Any serious driver issues, however, would be made known to you by tech news outlets.

If you use a specific software application that depends heavily on GPU performance or stability, you’d probably find the information you need there regarding an available driver update.

I’ve installed the latest nVidia update on both Intel and AMD based desktop hardware without issue. On an Intel machine with a 4GB 760 overclocked GPU, a brief error message flashed, but that’s because I did a clean install. The driver “failure” message occurred in between the time the existing driver was totally removed (hence the error) and before the new driver was installed.

That’s not to say that all’s good. As with Windows patches, I do wait a few days after a release to install drivers to ease concerns. I have one older Dell laptop that I won’t install any new drivers on without doing some Googling. Common sense prevails.

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Just yesterday I allowed the recent Windows “updates” to be installed based on Ask Woody’s suggestion.

I’ve what seems to be a coincidental Windows 10 crash and automatic reboot just now, today:  While editing Zoom’s virtual background, with it being the only app open on Windows 10, both my dual monitors suddenly went dark.

At first I wondered if it was an Nvidia (GeForce GTX 1070Ti) driver or card which crashed. But I think not because Zoom was directly involved and the machine rebooted OK. Because Windows totally crashed and rebooted, rather than only Zoom, I tend to think Windows and Zoom together were the problem.

I do have a complete OS image to which I could revert if I like.

Suggestions for a power user reluctant (and unqualified) to debug logs, if you please? Thank you.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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BSOD data collection app and first steps testing routines at Sysnative, BlueScreenView tool will give basic details though ’cause’ offered can be off the mark. Details from these can then be offered to potential helpers.

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Mr. Austin

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[Mr. Austin]

satrow wrote:

BSOD data collection app and first steps testing routines at Sysnative, BlueScreenView tool will give basic details though ’cause’ offered can be off the mark. Details from these can then be offered to potential helpers.

A brilliant idea and thank you! I installed BlueScreenView but it doesn’t show any MiniDumps:  there’s also no folder named MiniDump in the Windows directory to which BlueScreenView could point and retrieve things. When the machine crashed and rebooted there was no BSOD. Both monitors went black simultaneously, then the machine rebooted into its normal BIOS flash screen before going smoothly right back into Windows, acting (and whistling to itself) like nothing had actually happened

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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Mr. Austin wrote:

it doesn’t show any MiniDumps: there’s also no folder named MiniDump in the Windows directory to which BlueScreenView could point and retrieve things.

PS… in nosing around the machine’s Startup and Recovery options, it’s currently set to “Automatic Memory Dump”.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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Try running BSV as Administrator, the minidump folder is hidden by default, other dumps would be in the root of the System drive, also hidden (I think).

No crash dumps isn’t uncommon for certain BSOD types, often because a storage or security driver is linked with the fault.

Run MSInfo32 (it’s part of the Sysnative BSOD collection routine as well) and locate the Windows Error Reporting logs for details of any crashes, the last entry, it’s not easy to read though.

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Michael, please let us know what you discover. Have you checked the event logs? Usually if there’s a GPU driver crash, you’ll see the screen briefly flash black as Windows reloads/recovers the driver failure.

In the past, I’ve seen reports of Windows 10 problems with multi-monitor setups. Most problems involved scrolling from one monitor to the other on monitors with different resolutions. This doesn’t sound like your issue, however.

Obviously, you’ve had a hard crash, but Windows didn’t think it was bad enough to toss a BSOD at you. Can you replicate the problem?

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Mr. Austin

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[Mr. Austin]

Carl wrote:

Michael, please let us know what you discover. Have you checked the event logs? Usually if there’s a GPU driver crash, you’ll see the screen briefly flash black as Windows reloads/recovers the driver failure.

In the past, I’ve seen reports of Windows 10 problems with multi-monitor setups. Most problems involved scrolling from one monitor to the other on monitors with different resolutions. This doesn’t sound like your issue, however.

Obviously, you’ve had a hard crash, but Windows didn’t think it was bad enough to toss a BSOD at you. Can you replicate the problem?

Thank you. Yah, I wuz thinkin’ the same thing about GPUs. Yes, I’m an expert, closeted geek who built and ran from scratch a clever, mixed OS LAN a long time ago. But both tech and my interests have changed so I’m not up on sorting through my odious Event Logs. Although I did have a look at them for a few minutes over this exact issue. I decided since the machine is working in this moment I’d rather invest my time doing something else more productive for me.

I suppose I could whack the machine by replicating what I was doing because I remember it easily. But since what I was doing isn’t something I’d ever tried (a virtual background in Zoom) and won’t be doing again, I’d prefer not to spend time on that. If the same symptoms appear in a different scenario I might investigate. Your ideas bring me again to my own unpleasantly time-intensive one that I might prefer an OS atop an OS to babysit Windows 10’s ridonkulous, consistent inconsistencies and breakage – a hypervisor or virtual machine sandboxed to RAM so that Windows is less likely to [mess] things up.

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Mr. Austin wrote:

A brilliant idea and thank you! I installed BlueScreenView

Use Nir Sofer’s portable apps : AppCrashView, WinCrashReport

https://www.nirsoft.net/search_freeware_result_new.html?q=crash

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Alex5723 wrote:

Mr. Austin wrote:

A brilliant idea and thank you! I installed BlueScreenView

Use Nir Sofer’s portable apps : AppCrashView, WinCrashReport

https://www.nirsoft.net/search_freeware_result_new.html?q=crash

Thank you….

WinCrashReport didn’t locate a crashdump file by default. AppCrashView curiously identified an “AudibleRT.WindowsPhone” crash at the time the incident occured.

Shall I post the AppCrashView text dump here or somewhere? Methinks it’s possible the whole slew of AudibleRT.WindowsPhone app stoppages shown in AppCrashView’s logs and also the Event Logs are coincidental with the true but still hidden problem.

I don’t knowingly use such app and didn’t even know it’s installed. Yes, there’s an Audible app on the machine and I’m going to uninstall it now.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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[Mr. Austin]

satrow wrote:

Windows Error Reporting logs for details of any crashes, the last entry, it’s not easy to read though.

Thank you. Although yesterday I found the Event Logs far more detailed than my patience would allow, just now I loaded System Information, Software Environment, Windows Error Reporting and looked at the timestamps on its events. There are no crashes or hangs listed at the time the event actually occurred.

The one anomaly I found via yesterday via the Event Logs was that the desktop Audible app was throwing errors. So I uninstalled the app today. But that’s the only discerible trace I noticed via the Event Logs.

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Anything else showing in Reliability Monitor, Control Panel\System and Security\Action Center\Reliability Monitor ?

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Mr. Austin

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Michael this is a long shot, but I’m going to throw it out here anyway. I have seen the exact behavior you have described – no mini dumps, obvious event errors, etc.

I live in an area that experiences rapid voltage drops followed by surges, especially when the electric company switches something at the substation at 6:00AM or when someone crashes into the pole at an intersection up the road (2 to 3 times a year). All four of my 2000 VA UPS units light up and sound alarms.

If I happen to be working on a computer with a not so great power supply and it isn’t plugged into a UPS, the display goes dark and the computer reboots itself. Almost like hitting the reset switch. No errors are logged when this happens although sometimes I have seen the “unsafe shutdown” message with Win 7 depending on what I was doing.

Just a thought – are you connected to a UPS? How confident are you in the health of your power supply?

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Carl wrote:

f I happen to be working on a computer with a not so great power supply and it isn’t plugged into a UPS, the display goes dark and the computer reboots itself.

The ability of a power supply unit (PSU) to withstand these very brief, split second power outages (where the lights just blink) is called hold-up time.  The ATX standard has a minimum hold up time at the rated wattage of the PSU, but many manufacturers cut corners and use a smaller capacitor… sometimes even the top-tier manufacturers.

If yours is a branded PSU, you may be able to find some reports where the reviewer measured the hold-up time using an oscilloscope.  More is better, though a UPS is better still!

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[Mr. Austin]

satrow wrote:

Anything else showing in Reliability Monitor, Control Panel\System and Security\Action Center\Reliability Monitor ?

Yes indeed! I didn’t know about this panel so thank you

Screenshot attached. But nothing I can find which is traceable to the event. As you can see it seems to be at 5:03 PM and doesn’t show other information. Also the other improper shutdown it mentions (Previous system shutdown around 4:50 PM) is one I don’t recall… but I think I’d been working without interruption on same computer for quite a while including the time it mentions :-

But what you suggested is more than I knew before you mentioned it

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Carl wrote:

Michael this is a long shot, but I’m going to throw it out here anyway. I have seen the exact behavior you have described – no mini dumps, obvious event errors, etc.

An excellent line of thought. Thank you. The computer lives in a mountainous area known for its idiosyncratic power fluctuations including outages. This computer is attached to a decent CyberPower UPS which outputs square waves. Its event logs show no trace of the event. I also “self-tested” it just now and it passed.

This computer’s a VR-capable gamer’s box which is never used for games. Sound or video editing is its heaviest duty.

But now I’m wondering if there’s a good utility I could use to test the computer’s (600 watt) power supply via DOS or other non-Windows boot processes? Does that idea seem reasonable?

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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Ascaris wrote:

If yours is a branded PSU, you may be able to find some reports where the reviewer measured the hold-up time using an oscilloscope.

Another interesting thought, thanks. CyberpowerPC is the box’s builder, and its build sheet shows a, “THERMALTAKE 600 WATT 80 PLUS POWER SUPPLY”, I might be able to look up.

Might you know a non-Windows, bootable power supply test utility?

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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[Carl]

Your PS is most likely a Bronze or Gold certified Active PFC unit. Next time you take your computer apart to clean it, jot down the PS model number and Google it for reviews (any wattage in the same product series).

Cyberpower claims (as do other mfg) that Active PFC power supplies should have a pure sine wave UPS, not a square (simulated) sine wave. Quote:

“Electronic equipment with Active PFC power supplies may shut down unexpectedly when using a simulated sine wave output …”

I’ve not experienced this personally, but in the past couple of years I do keep my computers on pure sine wave UPS. I do use square wave (less expensive) units for routers, switches, phones. Next time you buy a UPS keep an eye out for sales on the just updated version of the Cyberpower CP1500PFCLCD. Good bang for the buck.

Usually PS units have to be bench tested. Depending on the sensors available on the motherboard, you can obtain some information. Take a look HWiNFO64 (freeware) if you don’t already have it:

HWiNFO64 Website

There is a portable version available and it really is outstanding. Once it loads, click the
“Sensors” button at the top.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Carl. Reason: modded link target

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[Mr. Austin]

Carl wrote:

Cyberpower claims (as do other mfg) that Active PFC power supplies should have a pure sine wave UPS, not a square (simulated) sine wave. Quote: “Electronic equipment with Active PFC power supplies may shut down unexpectedly when using a simulated sine wave output …”

Well now. There’s something I didn’t now. That’s clearly worth looking at and I didn’t know CyperpowerPC preferred pure sine waves. Thank you.

The computer’s current UPS is a Cyber Power Systems’ CP825AVR-G. I don’t recall when I got it but it has been quite a few years. It was used for a long time on my former HP Windows 7 box (R.I.P. – I’ve changed the UPS’s battery once before I bought the current CyberpowerPC computer.

More recently I put a friend’s older iMac on APC’s BR1000MS sine wave UPS because Macs were said to want sine waves. That was a great move because we have lots’a power brownouts and blackout around these parts. Replacing that iMac could cost upwards of $2,500 so I figured clean power would be best.

Based on what you just wrote it seems I might get another APC backup like that because I don’t need a lot of run time — just clean shut down and good software to do it.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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Michael, check out this Cyberpower blog post “Choosing a UPS System 101: The Fundamentals”:

Buying Guide

Toward the bottom of the post, it specifically mentions the iMac.

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[Mr. Austin]

Carl wrote:

Michael, check out this Cyberpower blog post “Choosing a UPS System 101: The Fundamentals”:

Buying Guide

Toward the bottom of the post, it specifically mentions the iMac.

Thank you Carl Velly helpful. I’ve been looking around to see if the APC unit does 80 Plus or Energy Star. I don’t see it on any of their published specs. So mebbe they’d know if I contact them.

Summing up the crash/reboot currently looks like this:  computer crashes and re-boots without easily-discernible Windows traces. That could mean the power was cut so fast Windows didn’t have time to respond to say, “Whaaat??!”.

I loaded up the very purty HWiNFO utility you suggested but didn’t see any actionable clues. The machine has an “ASUS TUF X299 MARK 2 ATX” motherboard.

If there are no Windows traces I might prefer to test the power supply:  unless I diagnose the problem tossing $150 or $200 at it for another UPS might not solve it. If, on the other hand, the PS has to be bench tested I find that odious and time-consuming. So I might then ante-up the $150 for a “probabilities test”.

I’ve a kind, local graybeard wizard who might like to help me with this. Maybe he’d have some ideas about where/how to find event logs of the incident rather than guesswork. When I replaced my laptop’s keyboard after a couple of its keys went dead, I asked him to connect the keyboard ribbon and backlit ribbon for me so I wouldn’t fat finger and break their connectors (like I did with the laptop’s drive connector ribbon ) We love meandering conversations about consciouness, which we’ve had while he worked on my laptop.

I might ring him up because this seems to be an intriguiging case.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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On the other hand, it could be a “one off”. Don’t rush to any conclusions – don’t spend money. See if you can replicate the problem. I’ve seen situations where an A-V patch causes a problem, but then within an hour another patch arrives that solves it. All in the background.

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I live about 18 miles from APC Corporate headquarters and met the founder on a number of occasions. Unfortunately, Schneider Electric (FR) bought the company in 2007.

I used to buy APC units for my old rack room and also for my house. Three out of the five units in the room where I’m typing this are APC. I just took a look at their catalog for home office UPS units and it seems they do have sine wave product available at a reasonable price.

Check this APC Catalog link

How did we get so OT?

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Mr. Austin

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[Mr. Austin]

Carl wrote:

How did we get so OT?

Because it was needed. In computer systems one needs to know what something is doing and what something is unlikely to be doing. When I posted in this thread about Nvidia issues because one of my potentially affected computers could be affected, I was questioning whether or not the Nvidia issues in the thread could affect the problems I’m seeing. Our dialogue helped narrow this down. And while it seems like its not an Nvidia driver issue at this writing, it’s still not a 0% probability that it isn’t an Nvidia problem.

And this, my far-flung friend, is how crowdsourcing works, like on this site with a range of user capilities from geek wizard to geek neophyte. I’ve done many crowdsourced projects including amid complex tech R&D. It’s a spectacular boon to us monkey’s pushing buttons because there are clear limitations to the expertise of any one person. In actuality, crowds can often make things more accurate than any one supposed expert.

I’ve a pretty good book for you, Superforecasters by Philip Tetlock. He gets some things wrong, but he gets many, many things right. It seems he is the one credited with popularizing the notion that experts making “predictions” have a verifiable track record of accuracy which is no better than monkeys throwing darts at a dartboard

I’m currently working on two very big deal crowdsourcing projects have lots of experience as their “founding facilitator”. One is private and unpublicized. The other will eventually be widely public.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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[Mr. Austin]

OK, Carl and all…

About my Windows 10 desktop’s two surprise, spontaneous reboots… I’ve decided it’s less probable it’s an Nvidia/Windows problem. Around two months after the machine was in service it did a ‘snap-to-black-screen’ warm reboot. The second one happened just recently. No power outage on either occassion. Both times the machine was connected to my now 9+ year old Cyber Power Systems square wave UPS.

Zero traces about the event in the machine’s event logs other than saying the machine rebooted. Well, duh. An additional curiosity came a couple of months back. I’m running an 8 year old Viewsonic monitor I enjoy which has speakers (DisplayPort connector to the Nvidia card). But I don’t use the monitor’s speakers. Dual monitors and the 2nd monitor is an HDMI cable to an Insignia TV. One day as I sat near the live machine, its Viewsonic monitor speakers emitted a very unpleasant, fairly loud screeching noise. I scrambled and turned everything off. It hasn’t happened again.

Following Carl’s suggestion I looked into the idea that my (seemingly serviceable) 9+ year old Cyber Power Systems UPS square waves could be incompatible with my new, fairly trick machine. My local graybeard computer wizard said that the only way he knew to test the desktop’s 80 Plus-spec power supply is to remove and bench-test it. Nah, that’s a lotta work and downtime for my ‘daily driver’ computer.

I’ve instead opted to replace the square wave UPS with a pure sine wave APC UPS like I installed on a friend’s iMac. That one has worked great because the other computer runs in an area with frequent brownouts and blackouts just like mine. The sum of the symptoms on my daily driver computer seems to point to otherwise unsuspected power frequency mismatches. This brings to mind  electronic noise like, but not the same as, impedance mismatches in audio systems or electrical breaker panel power hums.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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[Mr. Austin]

Carl, PPS. I finally found a trace of the unplanned shutdown and guess what, your hypothesis is holding up. Thank you. I didn’t see any other worthwhile traces around this timestamp:

“Log Name: System
Source: Microsoft-Windows-Kernel-Power
Date: 3/2/2020 5:02:57 PM
Event ID: 41
Task Category: (63)
Level: Critical
Keywords: (70368744177664),(2)
User: SYSTEM
Computer:
Description:
The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first. This error could be caused if the system stopped responding, crashed, or lost power unexpectedly.”

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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That’s great news Michael. Looks like you’re honing in on the needle in the haystack. Great detective work. This would explain the lack of dumps, events, etc. and that 5:02 timestamp seems to match expectations.

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[Mr. Austin]

Carl wrote:

Here’s the security bulletin for those interested:

Security Bulletin– NVIDIA GPU Display Driver – February 2020

I have a couple of computers that I’ve been remiss in GPU updating, so I’ll be joining Microfix.

So Carl thanks for posting this link. In searching the source of the problem I noticed on one computer it’s unlikely anyone would have local access to that computer. And although the computer’s problem doesn’t seem (so far) to be an Nvdia-related issue, since they publish reliable software I’ll go ahead and update that machine’s graphics card drivers.

PS about the surprise, black screen reboot you and I’d been swapping posts about? The computer’s now been in service for around a year and a 1/2. New at purchase, and one senior  Microsoft engineer opined it’s a custom box. When I thought back to how the new computer has behaved, I do recall one other incident (only one) when the new computer mysteriously and inexplicably powered off and rebooted itself, at several months of age. At that point I think it was connected to only one of its current two monitors. It was then sited in a slightly different location in a different building. But both incidents were in an area of California mountains known for power outages and brownouts. I ascribed the first incident  that wackiness. But now. a total of 2 black-screen-reboot incidents tend to support a subtle mismatch between the machine’s existing simulated sine wave (square wave) UPS backup, compared to the pure sine waves its ThermalTake 80 Plus power supply would prefer. Thank you, again, for all your thoughtful help

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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Mr. Austin wrote:

it’s unlikely anyone would have local access to that computer

Local access doesn’t equate to physical access, that’s another security category. Local access can also be gained by using another malware to cause a program crash, just as the multitude of exploit kits targeting Flash, Reader and many other vulnerable software versions did in the recent past.

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Mr. Austin

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I encounter this all the time. People misconstrue what local access means. As Satrow states, it does NOT mean that a person has to be physically sitting in a chair using your computer.

If a bad actor drops a piece of malware on your computer, then that malware may take advantage of a flaw in a driver because it is executing locally. Often the end goal is to elevate privileges to that of an Administrator with full control of the computer. A bit of an oversimplification, but that’s the general idea.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Mr. Austin

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satrow wrote:

Local access doesn’t equate to physical access, that’s another security category. Local access can also be gained by using another malware to cause a program crash,

Yeah, I agree that what you wrote is true :-\ and sigh…

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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Need some advice pls.

Currently on Windows 10 Pro x64 ver 1909.  My system is built by Maingear and I had installed the Nvidia GeForce GTX 1060 (6GB) – MSI board.

I have never updated the drivers, but Window 10 has changed them when version updating from 1709 to 1803 to 1903 (no change to 1909). Never opened GeForce Experience.

The NVIDIA control panel shows my drivers as Standard, version 432.00.

Even though everything is working and Device Manager shows all OK, I note in the Windows Add/Remove program that after the Windows update to 1903, there is no longer a separate entry for the NVIDIA Graphic Driver, but only for 3D Vision Controller, GeForce Experience, and PhysX System.

Questions regarding an update:

1. Should I stick with Standard or go with DCH (this appears what MS wants us to move to)?  Am I just fighting the future by staying with Standard?
2. Should I perform a Clean install?
3. Should I get rid of GeForce Experience?  By uninstalling the current install, or not checking on the upgrade?
4. Will the NVIDIA installer have a problem uninstalling what I currently have or installing the update since there is no NVIDIA Graphic Driver entry in Add/Remove Program?
5. If so, what to do?

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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Tex, you are correct. Microsoft is pushing users toward DCH drivers, but at present Microsoft still allows “side-loading” of drivers which gives people more control. Originally, Microsoft wanted the MS Store to be the sole provider of software and drivers (they claim for security, but likely because they wanted to monetize it).

If you consistently log into your computer using a Microsoft account, it probably won’t matter to you if drivers are standard or DCH. The installation interface is the same for both as is the feature set available. Standard drivers can be installed with no Internet connection – DCH drivers download the Control Panel from the MS store during installation.

DCH drivers can be installed on top of standard drivers, but the reverse may not be true. It wasn’t until December 2019 (I think) that nVidia added the ability to go in both directions.

If you do a clean install, you will not have the ability to roll-back the drivers to the existing version should the installation fail. You would need a copy of a known working driver installation package to recover (e.g. 432.00 in your case). Most geeks prefer to do a clean installation.

The use of GeForce Experience is up to you. Gamers apparently think it’s great. I personally think it’s bloatware with telemetry. I prefer to keep my computers lean and clean and manually install drivers, but that’s my preference.

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Carl thanks for the info so far, but how about Questions 3, 4, and 5 regarding uninstall and install potential issues? Does the NVIDIA driver update package rely on the Windows Add/Remove program when performing the update?

Have no idea where MS came up with current driver version 432.00 as I dont see it on their website.  What happens if I don’t perform a Clean install?  Will I have 2 driver packages?

Should have mentioned that I only use Windows 10 with a Local Account – no MS Account!

 

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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[Tex265]

In the meantime, I did a Google search for the 432.00 and found a lot of older dialogue out there about this unfound version of NVIDIA driver being used (forced) by MS with the 1903 and 1909 Upgrades.

Some even contend that they tried to update only to have MS change it back immediately of shortly afterwards.

Anyone heard of this? Or, have a problem with it?

Seems the 432.00 is the driver of choice by MS.

Could this be why the NVIDIA Graphics Card Add/Remove entry went missing from the Windows Control Panel?

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Tex265.

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Darn that Microsoft! (can’t say what I really want) Yep, many people were ticked off about that 432 because it overwrote newer drivers that people may have installed previously. I think you’re right about the reason why the driver isn’t in add/remove.

Right-click the desktop to load control panel. Then click Help -> System Information. You’ll be able to determine version and driver type.

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Carl wrote:

Right-click the desktop to load control panel. Then click Help -> System Information. You’ll be able to determine version and driver type.

Carl,

I already did that to begin with..

I have the 432.00 and Standard version which is the reason for my questions about upgrading and uninstalling.

Any further answers/help please?

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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Carl wrote:

Out of curiosity Alex, can you check the date on this file: C:\Program Files\NVIDIA Corporation\Control Panel Client\nvcplui.exe Are you downloading drivers from the main nVidia download page, the Advanced Search page, or 3rd party Tech site? Third party sites (e.g. Guru) usually only list SD drivers. Also, how are you attempting to block Windows Store? Metered connections, local account, firewall, hosts file? A hosts file block likely won’t be effective for DCH driver installs.

I use Nvidia Studio Drive 442.19 from 03.Feb.2020.

Control panel from 12.Dec.2019

I download directly from Nvidia : -Notebook – DCH https://www.nvidia.com/download/driverResults.aspx/156782/en-us
or sometimes use GEForce Experience.

All settings on Microsoft Store are set to off.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Mr. Austin

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Alex, the link you provided downloads the standard studio desktop driver:
442.19-desktop-win10-64bit-international-nsd-whql.exe

If I understand you correctly (language barrier?) I think you intended the standard notebook studio driver:
442.19-notebook-win10-64bit-international-nsd-whql.exe

Further up, you stated “I have version 8.1.956.0 of Control Panel installed” which is the DCH version. Maybe you installed standard drivers over DCH? Note file name differences below.

“Game Ready” Notebook Drivers:
[STD] 442.50-notebook-win10-64bit-international-whql.exe
[DCH] 442.50-notebook-win10-64bit-international-dch-whql.exe

“Game Ready” Desktop Drivers:
[STD] 442.50-desktop-win10-64bit-international-whql.exe
[DCH] 442.50-desktop-win10-64bit-international-dch-whql.exe

Notebook Studio Drivers:
[STD] 442.19-notebook-win10-64bit-international-nsd-whql.exe
[DCH] 442.19-notebook-win10-64bit-international-nsd-dch-whql.exe

Desktop Studio Drivers:
[STD] 442.19-desktop-win10-64bit-international-nsd-whql.exe
[DCH] 442.19-desktop-win10-64bit-international-nsd-dch-whql.exe

Windows 7 and 8 drivers follow the same format, but file names look like:
442.50-desktop-win8-win7-64bit-international-whql.exe

Please make sure you’ve downloaded what you intended. To verify type and version do the following:

1) Load control panel (Right click on the desktop)
2) Click “Help” (at top), then “System Information” (drop down list)

The driver version and type (standard or DCH) will be displayed. Next click the “Components” tab and scroll to the bottom to the section “NVIDIA Control Panel”. The version currently in use will be displayed.

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We have an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 (3 GB) card in a Windows 10 PC. We prefer to us the NVIDIA Studio Driver on the machine – the computer is not used for gaming.

When we go to the NVIDIA support page, we see the updated GeForce Game Ready Driver Version: 442.50 (WHQL) with a release date of 2020.2.27.

However, the only NVIDIA Studio Driver is Version: 442.19 with a release date of 2020.2.3.

Has anyone seen or heard if the Studio Driver is at risk and if and when an update will be issued?

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Mr. Austin

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[Mr. Austin]

Kathy Stevens wrote:

When we go to the NVIDIA support page, we see the updated GeForce Game Ready Driver Version: 442.50 (WHQL) with a release date of 2020.2.27.

With our GeForce GTX 1070 Ti card I did a similar thing, Kathy, before you posted this. In the case of our machine I installed only the 442.50 plain vanilla driver and not the extra gamer tcotchkies. But although I loaded 442.50 onto the box, I downloaded the 442.19 Studio Driver as a keeper in case I might want to be able to use it.

In case anyone cares I noticed two new things about the 442.50 driver. After installation the box’s Windows Taskbar button wouldn’t load its programs list until the machine was rebooted. And, two, launching the Nvidia graphics control panel takes a few seconds longer.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Mr. Austin.

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According the the nVidia security bulletin, if you have a GeForce video card “All R440 versions prior to 442.50” are vulnerable. But that doesn’t mean you should panic.

If you’re nervous, you can always do what Michael did and try the Game Ready version for now. Just be careful not to install the “GeForce Experience” because I don’t think you want that. When a new Studio driver is released, you can then install that.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Mr. Austin, Kathy Stevens

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Tex265 wrote:

Carl wrote:

Right-click the desktop to load control panel. Then click Help -> System Information. You’ll be able to determine version and driver type.

Carl,

I already did that to begin with..

I have the 432.00 and Standard version which is the reason for my questions about upgrading and uninstalling.

Any further answers/help please?

If you have standard GeForce drivers installed, then you should have no issues. Most people that had your problem did a clean install using standard drivers downloaded from nVidia:

Downloads – Advanced Search

A clean install removes the entire existing driver installation before installing the new one. Don’t use “add/remove” to uninstall the drivers. nVidia doesn’t recommend using Device Manager. If you don’t do a clean install, a copy of the existing drivers is maintained for rollback purposes. I think many did clean installs because they didn’t trust Microsoft, but I haven’t seen any evidence that MS did anything shady.

If you choose to do a clean install, your screen may go dark for a bit. Be patient.

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Carl wrote:

Don’t use “add/remove” to uninstall the drivers

So download the drivers that I want from the NVIDIA site.

Don’t use the Windows 10 Control Panel Add/Remove program to first remove the existing drivers 432.00, and also don’t use the Device Manager to Uninstall or Update the drivers.

Use only the NVIDIA driver download to install the new drivers. (The installation package will take whatever action is necessary to properly update the drivers).

Carl wrote:

If you don’t do a clean install, a copy of the existing drivers is maintained for rollback purposes. I think many did clean installs because they didn’t trust Microsoft, but I haven’t seen any evidence that MS did anything shady.

So should I perform a Clean install or are you saying that it is better/safer to keep the old drivers around for rollback purposes since version 432.00 is not available on the NVIDIA website?

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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[Carl]

Personally Tex, I would do a clean install. But do the following first:

1) Download a copy of a known good standard driver from the nVidia site (e.g. 432)
2) Be sure to create at least a restore point before installing the new one

Just to be safe (since MS installed 432 and we both know their track record). I always do clean installs, but I don’t like advising people to do so unless they’re having a problem.

Oddly, just today, the senior editor of PCWorld Mag published an article on this very topic. He pretty much iterates what I’ve been saying, but it may give you more insight:

PCWorld – Mar 6, 2020 – Brad Chacos
Try a clean driver install

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Carl. Reason: spelling
• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Carl.

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[Carl]

Tex, just to clear, you want an older known good driver available because should the latest driver fail during a clean install, you’ll need to be able to try another one (since you won’t be able to rollback).

If that doesn’t work, people use Display Driver Uninstaller (DDU) to completely remove any remnants of the driver.

Display Driver Uninstaller

To prevent Windows from trying to reinstall an ancient driver (which it will do after using DDU), some people disconnect from the Internet prior to manually installing GPU updates.

I also use Windows settings to prevent Microsoft from installing ANY driver updates whatsovever (GPU, audio, Ethernet, WiFi, Bluetooth, etc.). I’ve seen too many reports of Windows Update auto installing incorrect or older drivers and other such nonsense. I prefer to manually download drivers direct from chipset manufacturers (i.e. Intel, AMD, Realtek).

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Carl.

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Carl wrote:

should the latest driver fail during a clean install, you’ll need to be able to try another one (since you won’t be able to rollback).

That’s why you make an image backup before doing any updates. A restore is quick and painless.

cheers, Paul

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Tex265 wrote:

Should I perform a Clean install? Should I get rid of GeForce Experience? By uninstalling the current install, or not checking on the upgrade? Will the NVIDIA installer have a problem uninstalling what I currently have or installing the update since there is no NVIDIA Graphic Driver entry in Add/Remove Program?

If it were my machine, Tex, I’d uninstall the GeForce experience if I didn’t use it or didn’t know what using it for. Whenever I work on fiddly or suspect drivers I first back up everything in my configurations (drive image + System Restore Point + an incremental system back-up) and then usually uninstall (nuke) the old driver and install the new driver. In the case of these updates to the Nvida driver, and because I had never installed the GeForce experience, I opted to use Nvidia’s 432 driver from Nvidia’s site. These days I often avoid using Microsoft’s updates for a third-party driver. All is well at this writing.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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Mr. Austin wrote:

I opted to use Nvidia’s 432 driver from Nvidia’s site. These days I often avoid using Microsoft’s updates for a third-party driver. All is well at this writing.

Where did you locate the 432.00 driver on the Nvidia site?  It seems this was a Microsoft exclusive from all the internet comments.

Mr. Austin wrote:

and then usually uninstall (nuke) the old driver and install the new driver

How can I uninstall the old driver (432.00) when (like I said) it does not appear in the Control Panel Add/Remove section?  Would a Nvidia driver “clean install” automatically remove the old driver(s) and the GeForce Experience app if I did a “clean install” and did not select GeForce Experience with the new driver install package?

I seem to be in a catch-22 situation as per Carl, I should safe keep a known good Nvidia driver, but the only driver I know of that is good is the 432.00 that Microsoft installed with Win10 1903 upgrade, and I cant find this driver on the Nvidia website to download and keep.

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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Tex265… the driver was found in this thread. Maybe from something Carl had posted. If I was having problems uninstalling something I’d be looking for ways around that. There were uninstaller utilities I used for a long time up until 2018 when I switched to Windows 10, including but not limited to Revo Uninstaller. There have been times when I did long, tedious registry hacks to weed-out traces of programs I disliked. Sometimes for the sport of it. I am not suggesting that strategy for you.

Also, I recall no mention in this thread of anyone contacting Nvdia directly to ask their support. They also have user fora. You could try any or all of those things. And if those things are beyond your won, D.I.Y. comfort zone, I’d suggest considering the idea of getting someone to do what you need for you and pay them.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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I don’t know what driver you need, but try https://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx?lang=en-us.

Hope this helps.

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NVIDIA released a Studio Driver (Version 442.92) for our GeForce GTX 1060 3GB video card on April 16.

The supported NVIDIA products include:
NVIDIA TITAN RTX, NVIDIA TITAN V, NVIDIA TITAN Xp, NVIDIA TITAN X (Pascal), GeForce RTX 2080 Ti, GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER, GeForce RTX 2080, GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER, GeForce RTX 2070, GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER, GeForce RTX 2060, GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER, GeForce GTX 1650 SUPER, GeForce GTX 1660 Ti, GeForce GTX 1660, GeForce GTX 1650, GeForce GTX 1080 Ti, GeForce GTX 1080, GeForce GTX 1070 Ti, GeForce GTX 1070, GeForce GTX 1060, GeForce GTX 1050 Ti, and GeForce GTX 1050.

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I note in ghacks that Nvidia has released another set of Graphic Card security drivers.

I have GeForce GTX1060 6GB and don’t update very often and usually use the Studio driver version in the Standard format vs the DCH format.

I do note that on the Nvidia site that the Standard format for my card seems to end with 472.84  12/13/21, while the DCH format latest version is 512.59  4/26/22.

Can others confirm that Nvidia no  longer updates/releases a Standard format driver for my Graphics Card?

I seem to recall the DCH format will install over the Standard format, or is a Clean Install necessary?  And DCH obtains the control panel from the Windows Store?  Does it require a Microsoft Account as I use a Local Account?

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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When updating a NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 (3 GB) graphics card we go to NVIDIA Support – Download Drivers.

https://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx?lang=en-us

Then Select the NVIDIA Driver to download:

• Product Type: GeForce
• Product Series: GeForce 10 Series
• Operating System: Windows 10 64-bit
• Download type: Studio Driver (SD)
• Language: English

From there we are able to download the NVIDIA Studio Driver.

The current driver is:

• Version: 59  WHQL
• Release Date: 4.26
• Operating System: Windows 10 64-bit, Windows 11
• Language: English (US)
• File Size: 08 MB

The download includes the NVIDIA display driver and GeForce Experience application.

Once you start the download process you are able to elect to install or not install the GeForce Experience application.

We install the default driver offered by NVIDIA and do not worry if it is the Standard or DCH format.

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Thanks, but can  you or someone answer my other questions? (Especially if I have no choice but to switch to DCH which involves the Windows Store.)

Tex265 wrote:

Can others confirm that Nvidia no longer updates/releases a Standard format driver for my Graphics Card?

I seem to recall the DCH format will install over the Standard format, or is a Clean Install necessary? And DCH obtains the control panel from the Windows Store? Does it require a Microsoft Account as I use a Local Account?

And if you go to https://www.nvidia.com/Download/Find.aspx?lang=en-us and search for the latest DCH driver, it is 512.77  5/12/22 (this is not a Studio driver but believe it includes the latest security fix). Studio drivers usually come out later.

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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Is there a reason why you want to use the DCH driver?

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Per my original post, it appears Nvidia last published a Standard driver 12/13/21. If correct, I have no choice but to switch to DCH to get a more current driver.

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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Tex265 wrote:

I have GeForce GTX1060 6GB and don’t update very often and usually use the Studio driver version in the Standard format vs the DCH format.

The latest DCH Studio Driver is 512.59 from April 26.

You can follow my GPU updates for Nvidia, Intel, AMD on Lenovo’s gaming forum.

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Thanks for the responses from Kathy and Alex, but I am still hoping for specific responses to my 2 main questions in my posting above.

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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Tex265 wrote:

Can others confirm that Nvidia no longer updates/releases a Standard format driver for my Graphics Card?

I also use a GeForce GTX1060 6GB and that’s correct. The last Standard driver was Studio Driver 472.84 dated December 13, 2021 (select the GeForce GTX1060 at  Nvidia Advanced Driver Search and, under “Windows Driver Type“, select Standard)

Tex265 wrote:

I seem to recall the DCH format will install over the Standard format, or is a Clean Install necessary?

The first time I updated mine to a DCH version driver, the DCH control panel replaced the Standard control panel.

Tex265 wrote:

DCH obtains the control panel from the Windows Store? Does it require a Microsoft Account?

You only need a Microsoft Account to purchase apps. Any “free” app, including the Nvidia DCH control panel, will install just fine using only a local account.

In fact, there are 4 other free apps on my system, including the MS Store app itself, and all of they update themselves on a regular basis without a Microsoft Account.

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Just another Forum Poster wrote:

The first time I updated mine to a DCH version driver, the DCH control panel replaced the Standard control panel.

Thanks for all the answers, but one remaining:

Did you install the DCH driver “over top” of your existing Standard drivers, or did you perform a “Clean Install” wherein Nvidia installation reportedly will firstly delete/uninstall all of the Standard install and then install the DCH driver?

Or did you manually uninstall the Nvidia Standard drivers via the Windows Control Panel and then proceed with the DCH install?

I assume any of the install types will automatically remove the Nvidia provided Control Panel and automatically call for/download the Microsoft Control Panel from the Microsoft Store?

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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When I updated from 472.84 (Standard) to 511.65 (DCH) I chose NVIDIA Graphics Driver and then the Express (update existing drivers) install option.

BTW, Standard/DCH only applies to the control panel.

None of the actual drivers for either the Studio or Game Ready versions get downloaded from the MS Store.

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Just another Forum Poster wrote:

You only need a Microsoft Account to purchase apps. Any “free” app, including the Nvidia DCH control panel, will install just fine using only a local account.

Thanks for that info.

See additional  question to you in post  #2447925 above.

Windows 11 Pro v24H2 and Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2

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Kathy Stevens wrote:

Is there a reason why you want to use the DCH driver?

DCH drivers are the new standard for Windows 10 + replacing a years old .inf.

https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/he-il/000134505/what-are-dch-drivers-and-why-do-you-need-to-know-about-them

Moving to DCH drivers is a requirement from Microsoft for anyone developing drivers for Windows 10 going forward.

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