It’s almost time to move the MS-DEFCON level, but when I do, I want to get it right – and get your input. As you all know, I’ve recommended “Group A”
[See the full post at: New Windows 7/8.1 updating method coming]
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Patch reliability is unclear. Unless you have an immediate, pressing need to install a specific patch, don't do it. |
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New Windows 7/8.1 updating method coming
- This topic has 115 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 12 months ago by
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AuthorViewing 44 reply threadsAuthor-
I still feel that group W is a reasonable option. You can install updates as needed, and forego the rest. Let me also expand upon that by saying that some AV’s (I know of Bitdefender) protected against WannaCry almost immediately, which was a great help to our corporate home office. In that regard, you may be unpatched, but depending on what your tertiary security measures are, it may not be as critical.
Furthermore, I’m curious (and have mentioned this before) of the idea that you can limit or remove the telemetry from group A. Again, as far as I know, the updates are “all or nothing”, and you either have them all (group A), or none (group B).
Group B is annoying compared to group A, yes. However, after being acclimated to group B since October 2016, I’m not abandoning it. IMHO, the easiest thing you can do (as a group B’er) is run Windows Update, see what updates you need, and then find the Security Only variants of each. Typically that’s 3 a month; 1 for Windows, 1 for IE, and 1 for .NET. Once done, hide the Security and Quality versions in WU. I can deal with that.
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Agree.
Bear in mind that in Oct 2016, M$ imposed monthly Security-Only Patches to accommodate the Enterprise-users who are very sensitive to non-security updates and who also happen to be M$’s VIP-goose that lay golden egg$.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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Win 7, Group B – being in this group is a real pain in the butt. But then I don’t like the possibility of having my graphics card, audio card, keyboard, or mouse updated without my permission. Am I way off key or does this kind of thing not happen anymore? It’s been what has kept me in Group B.
Being 20 something in the 70's was so much better than being 70 something in the insane 20's -
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I don’t see why.
Group B is a very reasonable strategy for the time being. What you suggest may become an issue when the old system starts to have problems, but not before then. It took me years to customize, optimize and set up app config that suits me and I am not gonna drop that and take few more years to redo it for no benefit whatsoever just to satisfy MS’s greed.
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“By now everyone should plan to move on either to Windows 10 or leave Windows and return if they figure out that they didn’t choose wisely.” Does this statement go to the heart of the attack on the ‘Group B’ method of updating? The view expressed here reminds me of an argument I came to this website to escape, called GWX. I have been sensing the ethos of the Lounge change.
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For NVIDIA drivers, I always go directly to their download site: https://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx?lang=en-us .
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For NVIDIA drivers, I always go directly to their download site: https://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx?lang=en-us .
Agreed. I never use Windows Update or any kind of vendor “automatic updates” for updating drivers, especially video drivers. I never install “Nvidia Update” or “GeForce Experience” when installing or updating drivers (updating drivers only when necessary).
However, since I run non-English versions of Windows, I can’t go to the Nvidia US site for drivers, as the US drivers do not support other languages. I need to go to, say, the UK or TW site to download the International drivers which contain support for multiple languages.
Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.
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@ walker
Nvidia is a brand of usually high-performance GPU(graphics power unit) adapter cards for gaming, video-editing, game development, etc. The graphics card needs a software driver to work, ie display things on the screen.
The other famous brand for GPU are AMD and Intel. GPU are mostly used in high-end computers.For online gaming, if your computer is not powerful and fast enough to display game progress in milli-seconds(= fps = frames per second), you will lose the game because the screen display caused you to press a key a few micro-seconds slower than your opponents.
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@anonymous: My apology for being so far behind with “everything”. I knew I owed a big “thank you” to you for your excellent response to my question. Thank you very, very much for taking the time to reply. Your expertise and knowledge is sincerely appreciated!!
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Install what third-party software you wish on your machine, but do not come back for advice when your machine and registry keys are modified and you will not know how to revert to a good state.
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With due respect, CH100, your views are YOUR views. Woody’s Lounge works according to Woody, and
I believe he respects the other’s point of view and does not make disparaging remarks about them in the process. We are a diversified group coming from different points of view and opinion, and he encourages that because in the end we get to hear and discuss all sides of the argument. Maybe
that is what you intended by your remarks………… but alas it didn’t come over that way to me.
Just my 2 bits. LT
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So somebody recommends something (“For Group B I would recommend downloading SpyBot Anti-Beacon for telemetry because it is easy to use. I will wait a couple of weeks to download the updates.”) and all you can do is come up with some comments?
Save those comments and show some evidence why this recommendation is not a good idea.
Edit
Please follow the –Lounge Rules– no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum.Windows 10 Home 22H2, Acer Aspire TC-1660 desktop + LibreOffice, non-techie
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I don’t know what PKCano edited out of your reply but also in the Lounge Rules it stipulates “…dislike wading through reams of repetition…”. I’m sorry but I consider ch100’s stance as repetitive (even if I have taken this out of context) and aired in so many threads, we’ve all heard it many times before.
I respect ch100 and his knowledge / expertise but on the other hand he should respect ours whether it be wrong or right. We are free thinking individuals (we have that right) and do think for ourselves.
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@samak
We discuss Windows Update.
You come with a proposal for a third-party product which is not mainstream, at least not for those understanding Windows at a certain level and which actually breaks Windows functionality, functionality which you may need or not, but other users may wish to keep as it was intended.
Unless you monitor the registry keys and files which are modified by that software and explain to everyone which benefit this brings to the end user, then that software may produce changes which are not easily reverted by uninstalling.
This is a well known side-effect of installing and uninstalling many utilities and only very few behave according to the standards.1 user thanked author for this post.
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@CH100 ……. my comments were not related to Windows perse………… it was simply your tone
and choice of words……. you could have perhaps worded your message more diplomatically.
That’s all. And I am certainly no FAN of anything ….. enough said. LTDeal with the faults of others as gently as your own. — Chinese Proverb
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I agree with you – and that’s why I won’t recommend third party anti-snooping tools.
I would hate to say to normal Windows users “install XYZ to protect your machine from snooping” and then have XYZ screw up the machine, fail to work, or turn into something sinister.
Registry cleaners fall in the same category, for the same reason.
I took a big gamble with GWX Control Panel, and it worked out very well. But I got to know Josh, see where he was coming from, and work with him the whole time. In addition, GWX Control Panel was pretty straightforward, with known consequences (Josh reverse engineered and corrected Microsoft’s documentation). The anti-snooping software I’ve seen isn’t nearly as straightforward.
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I have been using it, but I am not clear what it does and how effective it is. It provides no feedback.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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One thing SpyBot AntiBeacon does is modify your hosts file to “sink” resolutions of certain site names, effectively blacklisting some Microsoft-initiated communications. To be clear, that’s a way to block some, but not others, and it’s not strictly necessary to use 3rd party software to do it. Here are the Microsoft entries I keep in my own hosts files:
# Unwanted Microsoft site contacts from IE 0.0.0.0 iecvlist.microsoft.com # Compatibility view list, contacted even though deconfigured 0.0.0.0 ieonline.microsoft.com # Something IE contacts that it shouldn't 0.0.0.0 r20swj13mr.microsoft.com # Unknown why this is contacted by IE when being shut down # Miscellaneous unwanted Microsoft comms 0.0.0.0 spynet2.microsoft.com # AV and MSRT telemetry 0.0.0.0 spynetalt.microsoft.com # AV and MSRT telemetry 0.0.0.0 wdcp.microsoft.com # AV and MSRT telemetry 0.0.0.0 wdcpalt.microsoft.com # AV and MSRT telemetry 0.0.0.0 www.bing.com # Microsoft's intrusive search engine 0.0.0.0 bing.com # Microsoft's intrusive search engine
Thing is, there’s not just one “telemetry” communications stream. What Windows does online is much, much more complex than that! And you really DON’T want to block all the comms – there are some very necessary sites that need to be contacted regularly or ad-hoc, for example for the purposes of certificate verification, or the download of malware definitions.
Lastly, not every system has the same needs, because users have different uses for them, expectations from them, and run different software. Some commercial software has to do license checks online in order to continue to run properly (Adobe software for example).
-Noel
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Out of curiosity, do you know if any of MS “telemetry” communications streams skip the host file and communicate directly to a MS host?
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We’ll agree to disagree on this one. It is an acceptance of MS’s blackmailing users to accept telemetery and botched patches, which in most cases won’t protect because the malwarers are always several steps ahead of sw vendors.
The core problem for Group A for Win10 users is that it forces the users to upgrade their system together with the patching to whatever MS chooses to add to monetize Windows. That cannot be an acceptable solution whichever way you look at it. In the Win10 case, since you cannot avoid upgrades with just security patches you MUST take frequent backups and restore in case of attack. IMO that’s maybe a less convenient but safer and freedom-focused bet. MS should not be rewarded and encouraged for most eggregious behavior.
Those who want to use computers in total ignorance will choose Group A and take the consequences. Those who understand that a minimal effort is necessary to protect yourself from everybody trying to sc**w them should make the effort and choose Group B for Win7/8 and Group W for Win10 pre-current version and take frequent system backups.
There is absolutely NOBODY and NOTHING in the current system that protects the public–all the mechanisms for that are dismantled–so people must start to realize that they must invest resources into protecting themselves. If they don’t they deserve what they get.
Edit for content
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We’ll agree to disagree on this one. It is an acceptance of MS’s blackmailing users to accept telemetery and botched patches, which in most cases won’t protect because the malwarers are always several steps ahead of sw vendors.
Oh, I agree with you. Microsoft has control of Win7 and 8.1 machines. No question.
I also agree that Win7 customers didn’t sign up for this… uh, stuff. Microsoft has grafted telemetry/snooping stuff onto Win 7 as a “bonus feature.”
Given that fact, I want to make the best recommendations I can for coping with the problems.
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I am following Group B minus. A sort of in-between B and W. I apply security only patches as outlined by pkcano, but a bit later. Woody, your warning about MS17-010 was timely and painted the picture. I immediately instructed my clients to install that one.
At this point, the only hope for B is the pkcano instructions.
Group W still has an option to bail anytime they wish. It would be easy if it was warranted to jump to Group A quite quickly = really just one cumulative update.
None of my clients have Office versions later than 2010. I have refrained from installing those “updates” after January. I will eventually do them to, but only after I am confident the dust has settled.
So far, I have installed Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan and Mar security only patches, .net, IE for March, and Office up to and including January. In another couple months, I will likely make another update pass.
It has become way too complex for any average person to follow B. So, from a purely practical perspective, I do the updates on all those computers remotely for my clients.
Status: Not a single one of my 150 client Win 7 computers has had a whimper of a problem since last Summer. In fact, they are more stable than I have ever seen them. I should add that all of them use Bitdefender Antivirus +. Changing from Norton AV a couple of years ago has turned out to be a hugely good move. I have not seen a single infection since then. Bitdefender has turned out to have an outstanding product. It is so outstanding that I do not have to deal with their “customer service” which is nothing short of pitifully worthless.
CT
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Spooky simularities between you and I . . . .
Like you, most of our clients are on Win 7 Pro, some are slowing moving to Windows 10 Pro and ENT (due to the fact that it’s become difficult to get new hardware that runs perfectly on Win 7.)
Almost all of our clients use Office 2010.
And, like you, Windows 7 seems to be doing VERY well lately, better than usual in fact.
Unlike you, we are keeping Office 2010 fully patched.
So far: no significant problems at all this year. We are on Group A- (or B+) . . . see my other post below.
The last Office 2010 patch that gave us any real problem was back in 2015! It was KB3114409 for Outlook 2010. ( I remember that MS yanked it within the week from the update service. )
~ Group "Weekend" ~
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Thanks for this. I evolved the “Group B” approach – or something very similar – for myself a year ago, on the suggestion of one particular P.C. technician, whom I was calling on at that time on a fairly regular basis to resolve various software issues which were rendering my computer difficult to use or to update. Discovering this website made life a whole lot easier, because instead of scratching my head and scrabbling around in the Update Catalog and Download Centre I could simply follow Woody’s excellent directions and links. The upshot? In the last year I have had no computer problems whatsoever – at least, nothing I couldn’t resolve myself with a little help from Google. I am no longer on first-name terms with all the P.C. technicians in my area, am far less stressed and saving a fortune. And you wonder why I don’t want to go back to installing everything that comes down the Windows Update chute!
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I think Group B should be left as is now, there’s nothing wrong with it, and has been very valuable advice, to change it is letting this alleged hacker group (who could be MS paid) win ,
If you have a reputable paid security suite installed on your machine and also use other tools to scan files such as Hitman pro, or Malwarebytes free versions, and you exercise some common sense and caution whilst using the internet the chances are that you will not end up with ransomware on your machine’s
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That’s good, glad to hear that Woody. I’m one of the non-techy kind……… and so far I feel that I have been capable enough (thanks to you and PKCano) to keep my machines, both Win7 and Win8.1, in Group B successfully. As someone else mentioned 3 patches a month basically, with the Security, IE, and possibly .NET…..oh! and of course the Office patches. But honestly it’s not a big deal is it…… because you and PKCano do all the leg work for us……. it’s relatively easy.
Both my machines are running well……… and some of the stories that one is led to believe that if ones doesn’t update per Group A………. then you are looking for trouble…… and that some of the less technically minded are leading other’s astray with their biased opinions. At the end of the day, it’s up to each of us to decide and carry out what we think is best. For me right or wrong depending on which side of the fence you are on, Group B. is working for me and that’s where I plan to stay for the rest of the ride. Many thanks Woody and PKCano for your help…….. from one grateful Lounger with much appreciation. LTI don’t know why I should learn Algebra, I’m never likely to go there! Billy Connolly
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Group B isn’t going away. I’ll still discuss it. But I’m going to recommend Group A for most Win 7/8.1 users, with additional advice for those who don’t want much of the snooping.
Good. I can accept that. I will ignore your “recommendation” and stay with B. It is fine with me so far. I see no reason to change to A.
Actually, I can find the updates myself, with the help of lists that Microsoft has made up:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4009469/windows-7-sp1-windows-server-2008-r2-sp1-update-history
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4009470/windows-8-1-windows-server-2012-r2-update-historySo I can probably keep with B myself even if you stop discussing it here. But still your promise of keeping and discussing B is good. I am happy with your decision.
Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.
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I can’t figure out how our model works on Woody nominations. Group A- maybe?
We deploy critical security and definition updates the night they are released.
Normal security updates and Important updates weekly the Friday night after patch Tuesday.
Most other updates we defer until the last Friday of the month.
We never deploy Driver updates from Microsoft except for Microsoft devices (think Surface.)
Feature updates and Service Packs: Only when they get promoted to CBB (typically four months.)
~ Group "Weekend" ~
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You don’t have to remove anything.
That one is a sweetener for those paranoid types who believe in zombies.
Hope you are not among them and prefer to have a fully functional computer instead.1 user thanked author for this post.
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> Hope you are not among them and prefer to have a fully functional computer instead.
This sentence in a MS context — I dk whether to laugh or cry.
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I don’t think I believe in zombies….
… but there are legitimate concerns about privacy that should be addressed.Life would be so much easier if Microsoft would just tell us what data it’s collecting. Even if we got a dump of 1,966 data items – like we now have for the Creators Update Basic level Diagnostics setting.
I’m reasonably sure that the EU is going to take Microsoft to task for excessive snooping in Win10. It’s highly unlikely they’ll try to take on Win7.
Some people are more sensitive to privacy concerns than others. In the end, it may be a losing battle. But those who don’t want Microsoft to collect information about them should have a fighting chance at blocking the onslaught – particularly with Win7.
I remember the halcyon days of Dr Watson, and Windows asking politely if it could send data back to the mothership…
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My only concern with the suggested changes is that we appear to be moving away from Group B on the grounds that it’s become very complex while adding increased complexity to Group A whose supporters are the least likely (after those on automatic downloading) to want to get involved in such complexities as dismantling the rollups in order to e.g. remove the telemetry. I suspect that the main reason some of us opt for Group A is because it’s the simplest way of installing the updates we’re offered through WU rather than the more cumbersome approach of accessing individual updates in the MS catalog while allowing greater control especially over timing than is provided with automatic downloading.
As a Group A user I’d personally prefer the Group A advice to be kept as brief and simple as possible, if people want a different way of approaching Group A rollups by way of dismantling the bits they don’t want then they should either switch to Group B or else have a link to separate advice elsewhere than in the main “Defcon raised” article.
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It is the right time, although a bit late if you ask me.
Unfortunately, promoting and maintaining Group B with huge efforts primarily by @PKCano since October 2016 has attracted a large number of users with limited understanding of the security implications of not doing it right and some of them are quite vocal in this sense and have influenced other unsuspecting users who now are getting confused not knowing who to follow.
To be clear:– Group W is not an option
– Group B, while correct for securing the computers, altohugh less useful for resolving functionality problems, is only for those who use management tools. Technet and MSDN articles are not for amateur users who are not interested in the technical details. Technet is for IT Professionals (Engineers, Administrators, Enterprise support people). MSDN is for Developers and to some extent for the categories mentioned above. Anyone else can get information from those sites, but unless getting into the deep details, they should not generally follow Technet instructions. Group B style of updating has been presented and never recommended as the option of choice only on Technet.
– This leaves end-users who cannot design a method for themselves to use the old time tested Windows Update with its own quirks. Using officially supported methods like configuring Group Policies where available is acceptable and recommended if it resolves issues. Anyone who expects others to tell them what to do and what to install, is not suitable to follow Group B by definition.Other considerations:
– Telemetry as malware is an urban myth.
– The “threat” to being upgraded to Windows 10 is another myth. Microsoft’s procedures for achieving this may not be ethical, but the end result useful to most end users who should be on Windows 10 already by now, or alternatively leave the Windows world.
– KB2952664 functionality is part of the Operating System for the latest server OS – see the frequent updates for its companion updating definitions KB3150513 for Windows Server 2016 and there is no reason not to install it.What is good for organisations with 10,000 + users moving in mass to Windows 10 should be good enough for someone who has no idea about technology but somehow feels compelled to give advice in this matter, while expecting others to tell them what specific patches to install to suit their self-designed frame of reference.
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I think you’re right – although it pains me to admit it.
– Telemetry as malware is an urban myth.
True, but telemetry as snooping is not an urban myth. It’s a sign of the times, yes, but there are many people who, reasonably, don’t want to go gentle into that good night.
– The “threat” to being upgraded to Windows 10 is another myth. Microsoft’s procedures for achieving this may not be ethical, but the end result useful to most end users who should be on Windows 10 already by now, or alternatively leave the Windows world.
The Get Windows 10 campaign was unethical. But we’re beyond GWX now. I don’t think Win10 is a “my way or the highway” version — people can still be productive with Win7 and (shudder) 8.1. That’s going to change over the next 2.5 years, as support for Win7 disappears, but for now, half of all Windows users are on Win7.
The problems with Win10, as opposed to Win7, are diminishing. Both now have an equally unwieldy patching model. At the same time, quality of patches is improving for both. Win10 snooping has decreased, largely as a result of EU threats, as Win7 snooping has increased. There are some very good reasons for staying with Win7 – program and driver compatibility being a main one. And there’s at least one reason for avoiding Win10, with it’s new-version-every-six-months forced upgrade pace. (Yes, I know you can skip one version, but only by stretching things quite a bit.)
I think in the next 2.5 years you’re going to see even more people dumping Windows – although all of the alternatives have congenital flaws.
– KB2952664 functionality is part of the Operating System for the latest server OS – see the frequent updates for its companion updating definitions KB3150513 for Windows Server 2016 and there is no reason not to install it.
That’s a good point, but it’s open to debate for folks who don’t connect to Windows Server.
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I’m in group A, on full automatic, for my two Windows machines (7 and 8.1). My 7 machine is dual-booted with Xubuntu Linux, and I rarely run Windows on that machine. I am currently setting up a disconnected (i.e. offline) VM in my Linux system, with W7 in the VM. No Windows updates needed, if it stays disconnected.
Here’s what I advise others to do:
1. Set your machine to check for, but not download, Windows and Office updates.
2. Wait about a week or two after the updates are released, before installing them on your machine, to see how it went for everyone else.
3. Be sure to do a full backup before installing updates.I probably should practice what I preach, but I am lazy.
Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server1 user thanked author for this post.
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Yep you do the same as I basically waiting for the fuss/problems about the latest crop of updates to die down. I run a multi-boot here in a similar fashion storing critical files elsewhere in other partitions/OS’s including off the machine if needs be. Should the “Horror of Horrors” occur necessitating a reinstall the back up images are updated to Oct 2016 and a couple of SYSPEPed images should I need to be further along on the reinstall curve. Yeah its a bit of work storing/filing stuff away each update session. Theres a fair amount of Maliase here also rather than go through a backup every crop of updates.
Just wondering if any of the exploits out there actually will infect .esd or .wim files as its a real breeze to reinstall/apply, I personally havent seen any mentioned anywhere.
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As a Group A user I’d personally prefer the Group A advice to be kept as brief and simple as possible
The easiest way is the classical and the only supported way.
– Use Windows Update with the tweak that in most situations a delay is useful, either few days or follow MS-DEFCON which was designed specifically for that purpose.
– Install all Important patches. They are mandatory except for those unselected by default, which should be treated same as Optional.
– Install all Recommended patches except for those unselected by default, see above.
– Install selected Optional patches if needed or all if feeling adventurous. They are Optional.
– The only recommendation here is to not install the Preview Patches as they are a sort of later beta (i.e. release candidate) which will get rolled-up during the next main release. All other Optional patches are OK to install, but not mandatory.This is general advice suitable for almost everyone following this site.
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Exactly.
Keep it simple like that for Group A, and let those who want to fiddle about dismantling this bit for telemetry and that bit for something else do so under Group B.
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There are three approaches that have caught my eye:
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A short list . . .
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A simple batch script, like the one @abbodi86 maintains. The problem is that some people will have a hard time figuring out how to run it.
I believe that abbodi86’s script isn’t maintained but always just works. So I would suggest that you recommend using abbodi86’s script and give a detailed explanation of what needs to be done in order to run it.
Advantage: the instructions remain the same every month.
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Hi all, like on many blogs I follow, I am a lurker. A one-way, consumer only, that values every different viewpoint I find. I collect the thoughtful information, and distill it to arrive at my own opinion on what best fits my machine, in the way I use it.
The reduction in stress I have felt since finding this blog — hat-tip Canadian Tech and your efforts at the Win7\answers forum — is beyond measure. For my use, I find CT to be over-cautious. But I recognize why that is. I do not have to ‘underwrite’ the potential losses in a fleet of machines.
As a suggestion, I would feel most comfortable with the install all ‘important’, and disable bad ‘features’ after the fact. I recognize all the drawbacks in this approach. It is just my preferred balance point between maintaining operational status while minimizing impact. I regret I am unclear on how to label this approach in the current groupspeak. I think A- has been suggested, but see that that may be different.
My voice is redundant, because others with more knowledge are already going to make this happen.
Just as MSRedmond may license the use of their code but they do not own my machine, and GNU/Linux is a few keystrokes away. I respect your knowledge, ch100, and use it in my decision process.
Thanks for your time,
PaulEdit
Please follow the –Lounge Rules– no personal attacks, no swearing, and politics/religion are relegated to the Rants forum. -
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I’m a user of Windows 7 Professional 64-bit. I’ve been in what I call Group A# (A-sharp) since November 2016.
I’ve been installing the roll-ups through Windows Update, but used a very simple batch file to disable telemetry. I have another batch file to monitor changes to telemetry, but there have been none since I initially disabled it.
I also have not been installing any recommended updates. Let’s not forget that GWX had that classification.
The two batch files I use are called FINDEYE (monitor) and POKEYE (disable).
FINDEYE.BAT
@echo off
cls
sc query DiagTrack
echo.
dir %ProgramData%\Microsoft\Diagnosis\*.rbs
echo.
dir %ProgramData%\Microsoft\Diagnosis\ETLLogs\*.* /s
pausePOKEYE.BAT
@echo off
cls
sc config DiagTrack start= disabled
sc stop DiagTrack
pausePOKEYE is simple and effective.
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I don’t know.
You’re the expert.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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@MrBrian It is all imaginary if abbodi86 and few others which are well known here and I understand Windows well enough.
I understand that you are trying to prove everything, but there are people in this world who “feel” Windows to say so (I think you are among them, but you just try to be nice and provide an additional service to those who are not) . They are the types who would find a solution to any issue, find registry keys which are undocumented and “know” somehow if those keys have been implemented by the Windows designers and if it is worth looking for them.
Windows is as is while most of what is posted here belong to a political forum, not to a technical one.
Some people just don’t get it and confound the two.
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In my opinion, those who want less telemetry, including those that are in Group B because of wanting less telemetry, should at least set the operating system’s Customer Experience Improvement Program setting = No.
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Hi Mr Brian,
This action is often recommended but sadly without explaining how to do it. I have disabled Customer Experience Improvement’s subprograms in Task Scheduler but other than that I can’t find the program elsewhere ( it’s not in services) to turn it to NO .
Also it’d be great if I could get Windows Defender engine to update, even pausing ESET security I can’t get Windows Defender to start up at all. I’ve tried with Windows Update disabled and with WU enabled. ESET’s site was useless concerning this issue – no information about this windows defender issue at all.
I was hoping that it would magically update itself through some secret MS background updating service as suggested by Noel C’s experience but alas nada.
Thanks for everything you are doing on this site
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This action is often recommended but sadly without explaining how to do it. I have disabled Customer Experience Improvement’s subprograms in Task Scheduler but other than that I can’t find the program elsewhere ( it’s not in services) to turn it to NO .
Type in the taskbar Searchbox “Experience” (without quotes), click on CEIP.
For Windows Defender try:
Turn off ESET
Control Panel\Action Center\Security – there should be a choice to show malware programs on your PC. Turn on Defender, open and update1 user thanked author for this post.
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I recommend that those who are privacy-conscious look at Links: Microsoft privacy statements and Windows network connections to Microsoft.
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As i said, telemetry on Windows 7/8.1 is extremely overrated and exaggerated
it’s only a few components that can be easily disabled/neuturalized
i have not saw a solid proof that MSFT sneaks it in undocumented components
anyway, May the Force be with you
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Look, a bad situation just got a lot more complex. Woody just wants us be ready for it. For what it’s worth, my I.T. team brought me and my staff the exact same message Woody did. If there is a silver lining to all this, it is every tech company got a major head slap this week. Best practices exist for a reason, and throwing away years of hard earned knowledge comes with a price. (As my I.T. guys reminded me over and over, while discussing updating policy.)
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My thoughts on the script mentioned here:
1. The first part of the script nukes Diagnostics Tracking Service. My current thoughts are that this service should be kept enabled and not nuked, if it is true that Diagnostics Tracking Service does not gather telemetry (except for telemetry related to the functioning of Diagnostics Tracking Service itself). Third-party programs can use Diagnostics Tracking Service to transmit telemetry. Windows Defender can use Diagnostics Tracking Service to transmit telemetry, at least in newer version(s) of Windows. There could perhaps even be legal repercussions of disabling this service, although that would be best to ask a lawyer about.
2. The second part of the script deals with nuking Compatibility Telemetry Appraiser (installed in updates KB2952664, KB2977759, or KB2976978) . The problem with this is this is an after-the-fact action. The Compatibility Telemetry Appraiser is set to run at 3am every day, or the first available time after that. On its first run, a full load of telemetry is transmitted to Microsoft if the operating system’s Customer Experience Improvement Program setting = Yes. The better way to handle Compatibility Telemetry Appraiser, in my opinion, is to not install it (if possible).
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It’s debatable whether the Compatibility Telemetry Appraiser telemetry transmission mentioned in the link above (detailed here) is something to be concerned about. The CPU and disk usage that occurs due to Compatibility Telemetry Appraiser, which happens even when the operating system’s Customer Experience Improvement Program setting = No, might be the bigger concern.
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Win7Pro-64_SP1 and MS Office 2010 here. Only 2 Windows machines left, as the rest have gone to penguins. I have evolved to a hybrid patching. I am group B+. I have not installed the big 4 telemetry patches. But I have also unhid them. I am solid B for the Monthly Security Only patch and the IE rollup patch via the MS Update Catalog. However, I am group A for .NET rollups, and use WU for Office 2010, but am very careful to check (here) for issues before I patch. I rely on Woody’s articles and the PKCano maintained AKB200003 documentation.
I download the monthly and the IE from the catalog when they are released. I wait until the dust has settled and then check to make sure the original update was not modified. The rest come from WU. My setting for WU is NEVER check, however I regularly check manually at the key times (Patch Tuesday, etc.) or if there is news. I do not ask for optional updates to be presented the same as important.
I also NEVER use WU for any hardware driver updates, but go right to the manufacturer site. I have also learned the hard way that unless the driver is a vulnerability or a new one gives MUCH greater reliability or performance, (or is needed to restore what a MS update broke) just let it be. (Besides most driver updates are to fix issues with newer OS or hardware and not older systems) Only Graphics drivers are routinely updated – but never via WU. The Intel WU and BT issue and the hard road to fixing it have been lessons well learned.
I have convinced some of the folks I know that unless they want to learn how to do and learn about non-group A updating, that Group A is best for them. For me B still works. My main objection to the telemetry and the big 4, other than spying without saying WHAT is being sent, was they caused a lot of disk thrashing and slowed down the PC by grabbing resources at the worst times. I have the article(s) about what is sent, but that is obtuse and vague Better to not facilitate than try to stop it after the fact.
I will keep monitoring MrBrian’s and Abbodi86’s techniques and scripts, since once I am comfortable doing that I suspect it is a worthwhile tool (and easier).
For me Win10 is not the future, for telemetry yes, but also as a rolling update OS it is not for me. I would love to be on the LTSB, and my Linux machines are all LTS (Long Term Support) versions. When it works, I want it to keep working.
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Relax, grasshopper. I’ll have full instructions when the time comes.
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Thanks for the work Woody.
I have been in group B but I think it is getting too complex, for me as a relatively unconnected home user (of Win 7, XP and 10 around the house that I maintain).
I think I will now join group A, still watching the MS-DEFCON recommendation, and hope there would be a updated list of anything I should uninstall/delete (if I can) maintained.
I really don’t like to be snooped, as a matter of principle, and I’d rather err on the side of caution.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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Having read some of the comments, and Woody’s recommendation to Group A, I’ll stay with group B plan; Windows 7×64 pro. This will be my last windows machine. Who knows, maybe we’ll all be running Android desktops in a few years.
As I’ve said often, snooping bothers me less than the bugs, crashes and blue screens that come too often with bad updates. Maybe it’s just me, but WU’s have too often created more problem than they solve. For the last few years of Windows XP, I went full Group W. I had few minor infections during that time. Yes, that was less painful than the botched updates.
I realize that the DEFCON system Woody uses is intended to avoid that very issue, but as I recently mentioned, an Office 2010 update caused all kinds of issues with Excel. I’ve hidden the offending updates. Point being the DEFCON system didn’t help with that one.
Never the less, Group B is just fine. I can handle the .NET updates, and avoid Internet Explorer like the plague (Firefox instead). Actually, I don’t see the problem. It’s simply a matter of doing the updates instead of having them done for you. When did computers ever NOT need baby sitting? Users seem to expect less care and maintenance, but that’s not the reality. It’s still in the hands of users. So what? A little extra fiddling each month.
Having been a novice tech support for an internet provider, I get it that many are baffled by their devices. So go Group A, it’s best. Don’t know if that adds anything to the conversation, but there it is.
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(Just commenting on the post, didn’t read the other comments.)
This is a very unpleasant development and attitude to see. I was taking AskWoody to be mainly a for group B sort of thing, looking for the month’s links to show up right away in the post and then checking comments in it over the next 24-48h for (other) early installers of the security only Win 7 patch to see if issues are reported. Now one can assume that with the switch, there will be less of those comments in those posts as well, since they won’t be about that anymore.
And fail to see what the great difficulty with group B is if you keep to it month by month. It is an issue on a new install, but otherwise, each month you just have one security-only bundle, one IE patch and then, if it exists, you get to decide between using Windows Update for the .NET bundle, which should probably be safe, or getting individual security-only ones for the versions installed (which you’ll probably only need to figure out once, then write down if need be) if you want to be extra careful about that as well.
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I was taking AskWoody to be mainly a for group B sort of thing,
Group B isn’t going anywhere! I’m just not going to write it up in so much detail, in InfoWorld. Those who want to be in Group B should be able to identify themselves in the write-ups, then click on the link to get detailed instructions, just as we have now – but with one additional hop.
BTW, in case I haven’t been clear, I’m a Win10 user. Have been for years. I don’t like the Win10 snooping, but I’ll put up with it. Until I’m ready to switch to ChromeOS or an iPad – both of which are looking more inviting every day.
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Background info (some of this info applies only to Windows 10):
Windows 7, Windows 8 and Windows 10 Telemetry Updates (Diagnostic Tracking)
Configure Windows telemetry in your organization
From the first link:
“There are a few more settings that you can turn off that may send telemetry information:
To turn off Windows Update telemetry, you have two choices. Either turn off Windows Update, or set your devices to be managed by an on premises update server, such as Windows Server Update Services (WSUS) or System Center Configuration Manager (SCCM).
Turn off Windows Defender Cloud-based Protection and Automatic sample submission in Settings > Update & security > Windows Defender.
Manage the Malicious Software Removal Tool in your organization. For more info, see Microsoft KB article 891716.”
1 user thanked author for this post.
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I’ll wager I know what communications a desktop system does online as well as anyone, as understanding and controlling such communications is a passion of mine. A career in data communications and software engineering tends to do that to you.
Thing is, there’s not just one “telemetry” communications stream. What Windows does online is much, much more complex than that! Insanely more complicated.
Presuming you want to do at least SOME things online with your system you actually DON’T want to block all the comms – there are some very necessary sites that MUST be contacted by a typical system regularly, e.g., for the purposes of certificate verification, time sync, license management…
That’s not to say Windows can’t be made very private. I myself maintain Windows 7, 8.1, and 10 systems that don’t spill the beans online. But it’s no small, simple, turnkey task. Windows is a complex beast, and it takes some geek chops to do it along with ongoing effort.
As an example, here’s a list of all the sites my Windows 10 test system at LAN address 192.168.2.26, allowed to sit idle all day, contacted. I ran the command (on my Win 8.1 workstation) to search my DNS log at near midnight last night. You can see that the only communication initiated in the 24 hour period was to get the time from the National Institute of Standards and Technology via a task I have scheduled (I have disabled the out-of-box Windows time service).
Most folks, however, wouldn’t find my Windows 10 system, above, acceptable. Why? Because I have shunned all the Apps and cloud-integration entirely. But it DOES illustrate that the beast can be controlled, and my techniques are applicable to purely desktop-oriented Windows 7 and 8.1 systems also.
What have I found that it takes to accomplish this reduction/elimination of Microsoft-initiated online communications?
- Reconfiguration of all provided settings to their most private choices.
- Being willing to do without (or reduced function from) some services Windows seeks to provide.
- Configuration through the local Group Policy editor a number of settings.
- Configuration through the registry of a number of settings that have no UI.
- Disabling of scheduled tasks involved with telemetry and online comms.
- Disabling of services involved with telemetry and online comms.
- Adding entries to the hosts file to blacklist some sites.
- Watching vigilantly for any of these things to be reverted by updates.
- Outfitting with extra software to monitor and police communication attempts.
The list above may seem daunting, but we haven’t even gotten to the part where the devil is in the details. The lists of how to accomplish the above things are long and complex.
Ideally I imagine people want a fully private system that still allows them to do everything they want. That’s not gonna happen. You have to be willing to compromise.
What does one have to consider doing without?
- Apps. The very nature of Apps is that they’re web-integrated and they require an infrastructure to keep them functional. If you want to run Apps, stop reading now.
- Cortana. A personal digital assistant COULD work entirely from local data, but Cortana doesn’t. If you want a personal digital assistant that talks to you, stop here.
- Cloud-integration, such as OneDrive, except for user-initiated operations e.g., in a browser. The good news is that you can use a OneDrive server to store/retrieve files through a browser without ANY of the system-level integration
- Automatic updates. You have to be willing to install them yourself from the catalog if you want a truly subservient system.
- Some security features such as the “Smartscreen Filter”. But you can’t rely on luck; you need a GOOD alternate plan to stay safe online.
- Suggestions that pop up while you type. Your keystrokes are sent to Bing or Google or whatever search engine to make that happen.
- “Continuously online” communications / networking applications. If you don’t want your computer communicating with who knows whom, such cloud-integrated services (e.g., Skype) have to be avoided.
- Generally speaking, subscription and high-end commercial software communicates regularly online to do things like verify its licensing. Either you need to allow this or choose software that doesn’t do that.
- Some software seeks to be cloud-integrated (late versions of Office, for example). You have to avoid this software or specific features within it, and be able to differentiate wanted comms from unwanted comms. That’s no small feat!
- Online backups. Uh, no, get one or more external USB drives and make your own local backups, where you maintain full control of your data.
This has gotten long already, yet I’m sure there are things I’ve missed and I haven’t even begun to get into the list of actual technical things to do to get to a secure, private system that doesn’t try overmuch to send your data abroad. It’s a challenging task even for a career software engineer. It’s not going to be feasible at all to provide a “have your cake and eat it too, set it and forget it” solution for an average user.
-Noel
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(My apologies if this appears as a duplicate, I tried to edit the original and it appears to have disappeared when saved)
I suspect some of the submissions in this thread have been prompted by the weekend’s ransomware events, however nothing has in fact changed since Monday last week (or the week before)
Both Group A and Group B would have been protected since late March when DEFCON dropped to 3, it is now mid-May. Group W will know the risks they run and will mitigate (or accept) the risks accordingly.
Outside of that, anyone else that hasn’t patched clearly doesn’t care what happens and will suffer the consequences.
Group A is theoretically the least risky (until the next zero-day exploit), Group B carries a marginally higher level of risk though not necessarily significant assuming all the correct patches have been installed correctly and clearly Group W will bear some significant risk which they will need to manage.
Every single user in this forum is constantly at risk, right now, simply by using any form of IT and is simply part of the cost of using it. It is really down to the user to decide how comfortable they are with each level of risk, but risk will not go away, it cannot no matter which group you fall into.
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Woody, Another aspect to this WU thing relates to the vast majority who give about as much thought to their PCs as they do their electric toothbrushes.
Many of those machines, maybe even the majority have not been updated either ever or in many, many months for a whole variety of reasons. Those users either are not aware of that fact and/or do not care. The biggest contributor to this quagmire is the update engine itself.
That means a lot of people who you will recommend take the A course, don’t even know or care that they are already W.
CT
3 users thanked author for this post.
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So very, very true.
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– Group B, while correct for securing the computers, altohugh less useful for resolving functionality problems, is only for those who use management tools.
Strongly disagree.
Finding out what updates to install and running the .msu manually (or using a batch file and using wsus) is no different than using WU in Group A.The onus is on the user to actually maintain, instead of it being done for them. That’s about the only difference IMHO.
– Telemetry as malware is an urban myth.
Maybe not by definition, but for most people, telemetry is something they don’t want, and do want to limit or cut off entirely.
– The “threat” to being upgraded to Windows 10 is another myth.
After the last 2 years, I’m not putting anything past them.
There is no upgrade program currently, yes; however, I see no reason to believe that they won’t possibly bring it back at some point.– KB2952664 functionality is part of the Operating System for the latest server OS – see the frequent updates for its companion updating definitions KB3150513 for Windows Server 2016 and there is no reason not to install it.
2 wrongs don’t make a right.
Secondly, a server OS should not be phoning home for anything other than updates.
MS can keep its nose out of the servers I manage just like they can keep their nose out of my personal workstations.What is good for organisations with 10,000 + users moving in mass to Windows 10 should be good enough for someone who has no idea about technology but somehow feels compelled to give advice in this matter, while expecting others to tell them what specific patches to install to suit their self-designed frame of reference.
Again, 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
Right now we have no plans on what to do at a corporate level.
I can assure you that upgrading every 7 box to 10 and ever 2008 R2 server to 2016 in our domain is not going to happen; not under my boss’ watch, and (if he quits), not under mine.
We’d be more likely to get a VL for 8.1 (which we probably already have) and create a corp image including Classic Shell, and upgrade all the 7 boxes to that.4 users thanked author for this post.
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There is no upgrade program currently, yes; however, I see no reason to believe that they won’t possibly bring it back at some point.
I doubt that MS will bring back a GWX-like program at this point. They already have one – end of support. They’re also getting sued for the original GWX.
The upgrade is still free, by the way. Use any valid Win7/8.1 key and you can install and activate Win10 directly.
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… I’m reasonably sure that the EU is going to take Microsoft to task for excessive snooping in Win10. It’s highly unlikely they’ll try to take on Win7…
Oh! The upcoming privacy laws will have nothing to do with OSes… all that matters is, that if you collect any info on me or my behavior, you’ll have to tell me exactly which data – and where they “end”. Much more important to me is, that you can only collect, what I’ve allowed you to collect! And default answer is “no”, btw.
In other words: unless I in advance say “yes” to allow you to collect anything, that means, you collect nothing. If you still collect anything, then just wait form the hammer to fall.
The fines are not insignificant… so come May 25 2018.
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There is no upgrade program currently, yes; however, I see no reason to believe that they won’t possibly bring it back at some point.
I doubt that MS will bring back a GWX-like program at this point. They already have one – end of support. They’re also getting sued for the original GWX. The upgrade is still free, by the way. Use any valid Win7/8.1 key and you can install and activate Win10 directly.
Even if they do bring it back, unless a policy changes, you should be able to easily opt-out or block it. In fact, if you have NOT blocked it using the supported method on a recently built machine on Windows 7 or 8.1 – you should go and do that NOW. It should become a part of your build procedure.
Blocking the Upgrade option (formerly GWX) on Windows 7:
For stand alone machines:
-There’s Gibson’s Never10 at https://www.grc.com/never10.htm
– Or you can insert reg keys yourself,
– Or if you manage a network you can use Group Policy.
Apologies for referring to my own site, but for the last two above options you can follow the directions step by step to block upgrades here: (and I promise that if these steps change, I will update info there!)
https://networkdefend.blogspot.com/2016/02/disable-windows-10-upgrade-for.html
~ Group "Weekend" ~
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Press Windows key and +
There. You’ve used an assistive technology.
It’s in Microsoft’s best interests to get you to move from Win7 or 8.1 to 10. They are well aware of the fact that Win7 keys will validate Win10 installations – and they’ve done nothing to stand in the way.
Nods, winks, blind horses.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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It’s in Microsoft’s best interests to get you to move from Win7 or 8.1 to 10. They are well aware of the fact that Win7 keys will validate Win10 installations – and they’ve done nothing to stand in the way.
Sure, fully agree. But you never know what happens, when W10 reaches 60% market share. Then they’ll tell you: “you activated past the deadline, we’re sorry, pay 50 USD or you’re left with not activated W10 or W10 S” :). With MS you never know.
They do allow to activate W10 with older keys – but they also keep the June 29th, 2016 deadline at their website – and you may expect it’s for a reason.
BTW, thanks for the tip – I just used the Magnifier :).
Fractal Design Pop Air * Thermaltake Toughpower GF3 750W * ASUS TUF GAMING B560M-PLUS * Intel Core i9-11900K * 4 x 8 GB G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3600 MHz CL16 * ASRock RX 6800 XT Phantom Gaming 16GB OC * XPG GAMMIX S70 BLADE 1TB * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB * Samsung EVO 840 250GB * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Windows 10 Pro 22H2 64-bit Insider * Windows 11 Pro Beta Insider1 user thanked author for this post.
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“There are some very good reasons for staying with Win7 – program and driver compatibility being a main one.”
And inertia. If it works, don’t fix it. Why does this continually slip out of awareness? People have other things to do, a life to live, a business to run. If Win10 works only about as well (0nly after you perform some major tweaks on it) as Win7, that’s NOT enough reason to take on all the other issues.
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Bear in mind that most corporations who had previously leased/subscribed Win 7/8.1 Ent Volume Licenses have upgraded to Win 10 Ent VL for “free” and renewed their 3-year term M$ Enterprise Agreements and Software Assurance/Insurance. This kind of VL leasing/subscription is like Office 365 subscriptions which get free and perpetual upgrades as long as the subscriptions are paid to M$.
… So, the Windows system admins of such corporations running Win 10 Ent VL under lease/subscription tend to advocate for Win 10 because these admins are like saltwater fish who cannot survive without the saltiness of Win 10.In comparison, most corporations who had paid more money to M$ to buy Win 7/8.1 Ent VL have not upgraded to Win 10 Ent VL and intend to stay on Win 7/8.1 Ent VL until EOL in 2020/2023, in order to get their money’s worth.
… Similarly for most home-users of Win 7/8.1, ie they have bought OEM or Retail Win 7/8.1 licenses and intend to stay on Win 7/8.1 until EOL in 2020/2023.
… That is why, after nearly 2 years of Win 10, there are still about 60% of Windows users on Win 7/8.1.1 user thanked author for this post.
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I was doing Group B on Windows 8.1 since January 2016, when I got the laptop. Only one non-security update, which I did have to do some searching on, for updating WU. It was easy under the old system of WU. And never had any problems. Its not like that now, with the “new” updating system. Yes, it can be done, and this site is great for information and how to. (If you can get the updates to install).
I can understand ch100’s stance on this, it would be easy to lose services and functionality doing Group B, and that is why he posts what he does. The thing is, its getting harder and harder, and maybe PKCano and others don’t want to do this forever. It really is easier to run Ubuntu and Linux Mint than a Windows system once you have learned a few things, compared to the updating paradigm we have now. (Not even counting problems with WU under the old system). (You would go into shock over how easy updates are on Linux). The other thing that readers here may want to think about is that Windows 10 is a rolling distribution, eats huge data, needs upgrading routinely. How many home users are up to this? What to do? It may be that users here would be better served by investigating either Ubuntu or Linux Mint while running 7 or 8.1 till 2020/23.
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…so, if I just want to make sure I don’t get the often-botched first patches (the ones that makes all who install them into beta testers without knowing about it), but don’t really care enough about the snooping, how would I go about updating now?
If you don’t care about the snoopoig, this describes Group A. Group A installs all the important and recommended updates. That includes the “Security Monthly Quality Rollup for Windows” that is delivered through Windows Update. That is the easiest – just wait until the DEFCON number goes to 3 or above (to avoid problem patches) and install everything that is checked according to Woody’s directions.
Also: Have it become harder to patch for ‘Group B’ since last month (would explain the recommendation for many people to move to ‘Group A’), or is there another reason?
Group B patching has not changed at this point. However, downloading updates and manually installing them is beyond the ability of many Users, even many who try to follow that method. So they get confused.
I have KB4012213 installed btw, does that mean I’m protected?
KB4012213 is the March Security Only Quality Update for Win8.1. Yes you are protected.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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Just what I did
Thanks again!
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anonymous who just wrote in at 12:48
Set your Windows Update setting to NEVER…. Leave it that way permanently.
Go to http://www.askwoody.com to find out WHEN to update. Watch for the MS-Defcon rating that Woody sets. Read is advice there.
When it is time as he advises, start Windows Update and click check for updates. Since you have chosen Group A, accept all updates offered.
An additional bit of advice: Do NOT accept driver updates from the Windows Update. Driver updates should not be updated unless there is a specific problem you need to solve. Then only that update should be updated. Your source of driver updates should ONLY be the OEM of your equipment.
The specific update that dealt with Wanna cry is:
http://download.windowsupdate.com/d/msdownload/update/software/secu/2017/02/windows6.1-kb4012212-x64_2decefaa02e2058dcd965702509a992d8c4e92b3.msu
http://download.windowsupdate.com/d/msdownload/update/software/secu/2017/02/windows6.1-kb4012212-x86_6bb04d3971bb58ae4bac44219e7169812914df3f.msuHowever, if you are in Group A, you will automatically be receiving the appropriate update anyway.
CT
2 users thanked author for this post.
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I see, thanks for your answer (even though I knew the things said in it already), but since Group B patching haven’t really changed, I think I’ll stay in that camp for now.
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