“New Outlook – all you email are belong to us”

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[Cybertooth]

From Paul Thurrott’s website: https://www.thurrott.com/forums/microsoft/windows/thread/new-outlook-all-you-email-are-belong-to-us

“An interesting article in c’t magazine this week. They looked at the new Microsoft Outlook version that is now shipping with Windows 11.”

If you use a Windows 11 local account, without a linked Microsoft Account, when you add mail accounts (E.g. IMAP or POP3 to other mail services), it seems that Microsoft creates a “shadow” Microsoft Account to hold your emails online in their cloud.

[…]

The information that Microsoft is creating shadow Microsoft Accounts isn’t explicitly made, when you add accounts to New Outlook. Likewise, they are using the emails stored in the cloud for analysis, but nothing in the T&Cs on how they will use the data, whether it stays in your “MA” space or whether it can/will be used for wider co-pilot or marketing purposes.

And down in the comments section:

Paul confirmed on today’s First Ring Daily [n.b.: a podcast hosted by Brad Sams] that the ‘New Outlook’ app will eventually replace all existing versions of Outlook, desktop, web or otherwise. I for one will NOT use it if they continue to sync my entire mailbox to their servers, that’s just nuts…

Any German speakers here to confirm or discuss the claims reportedly made in that magazine?

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[TJ]

This is indeed alarming.

Here’s the link to the G.translatation of the said C’t article to English https://www-heise-de.translate.goog/select/ct/2023/28/2331715395648017635?seite=all&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

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Cybertooth, windbg

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Cybertooth wrote:

The information that Microsoft is creating shadow Microsoft Accounts isn’t explicitly made, when you add accounts to New Outlook.

What part of “sync … to the Microsoft Cloud” don’t people understand?

The “Learn more” link explains the advantages of doing so:

What happens when I sync my account to the Microsoft Cloud?

Syncing your account to the Microsoft Cloud means that a copy of your email, calendar, and contacts will be synchronized between your email provider and Microsoft data centers. Having your mailbox data in the Microsoft Cloud lets you use the new features of the Outlook client (New Outlook for Windows, Outlook for iOS, Outlook for Android, Outlook.com, or Outlook for Mac) with your non-Microsoft account, just like with your Microsoft accounts.

Your experience on your native account and within any apps from that provider will remain unchanged.

New Outlook for Windows – Outlook for Mac – Outlook.com – iOS & Android

The ability to sync to the Microsoft Cloud is available to users of New Outlook for Windows, for which, the following features are available for Gmail and Yahoo accounts.

Mail

Mail search

Create, read, update, delete folders

Focused inbox

My Day tool

Flag tag

Pinning emails

@mentions inside emails

Snooze notifications

Mark emails as read/unread

Mark as favorite (people, folders, groups)

Check accessibility

Respond to an email with a meeting request

Rich editing, spelling, and auto complete suggestions powered by Microsoft Editor.

Calendar

Recurring meetings

Free, tentative, busy, OOF

Mark as private

RSVP in Preview

RSVP in Grid

Contacts

Add contacts

Contact suggestions

Additional

Travel and deliveries tracking

Sync your account in Outlook to the Microsoft Cloud

Cybertooth wrote:

Likewise, they are using the emails stored in the cloud for analysis,

Analysis by MS is not mentioned in the German article (or anywhere else).

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The German magazine are not the only people to have examined the situation with “New Outlook”. Here is a follow-up piece on XDA-developers.com:

…Based on research from the German blog heise.de, which we’ve been able to reproduce at XDA, it appears that the new Outlook app is far more tightly integrated with the cloud than a user might expect, opening up the scope of potential Microsoft data collection.

[…]

When opening the new Outlook client for the first time, the user is asked to log in much like any other email client. If you enter an email address with a common provider, like Gmail or iCloud, the client will use an Oauth2 workflow to authenticate with your browser. If you enter a third-party domain, you’ll be prompted for an IMAP password (if supported). This is all very normal for an email client.

However, once you’re authenticated, you’re presented with an innocuous window informing you that to use the new version of Outlook, Microsoft will need to sync your emails, events, and contacts to Microsoft Cloud. A cancel option is available, but there’s no option to refuse and continue using your client. A support link is provided with some more information, which explains that the access enables features such as mail search, a focused inbox, or recurring meetings, but makes no clear statement of the limits of this data collection.

From this warning, a user might reasonably assume that the email client they’re logging into will continue acting as an email client and that the client might send some limited data for processing in the cloud. However, that’s not the case. Instead of your email client authenticating, your credentials are passed to the Microsoft cloud, which authenticates on your behalf. From this point, all processing (including the fetching of your emails) is handled in the cloud. We could not observe any traffic traveling directly from the client to our email provider.

Here is how they performed their test:

The email provider we’re using for this example records the IP address and access time of each new login. If the Outlook client was communicating directly with our mail server (i.e. acting like a client should), then the IP address the email provider records should be the same as the computer we’re running Outlook on. In each case we tried this, no connection was recorded from our home IP address. Instead, the initial IMAP/SMTP connections came from a 52.x.x.x IP address. A quick WHOIS lookup shows that this IP address is registered with Microsoft. This would demonstrate that the Outlook “client” is nothing of the sort, acting entirely as a wrapper around Microsoft’s cloud services and that our local client has never actually logged in at all. [emphasis added]

 

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Cybertooth wrote:

This would demonstrate that the Outlook “client” is nothing of the sort,

Whose definition of “client” does this allegedly transgress?

An email client … is a computer program used to access and manage a user’s email.

Email client — Wikipedia

(Even if Microsoft claimed that new Outlook was a client.)

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Interesting that you chose to quibble over the definition of an “email client” instead of addressing the substantive issue, which is that Microsoft is putting copies of users’ communications from other email providers in its own cloud. From the XDA Developers article:

The offloading of the client functionality of email to the cloud also removes the ability for security engineers or researchers to easily inspect what the client is doing… It’s also important to remember that this access is ongoing. It’s no longer possible to stop Microsoft’s access to your emails by simply closing Outlook. Users may log in to Outlook on their desktop to test it out, decide they don’t like it, and simply stop using it without signing out. Until the user does sign out (or revokes the session elsewhere), Microsoft will retain ongoing access to their data.

Martin Brinkmann of ghacks.net states the issue plainly:

The new Outlook for Windows application will replace Mail and Calendar, and also classic Outlook. Problem is, it may transfer third-party email logins to Microsoft and gives Microsoft full access to all emails, contacts and events.

[…]

Windows users need to be very careful when it comes to the new Outlook. We recommend not to use it with third-party accounts at the time of writing until Microsoft publishes an official statement about this.

 

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Cybertooth wrote:

Interesting that you chose to quibble over the definition of an “email client” instead of addressing the substantive issue,

That’s the part to which you chose to add emphasis! Interesting to me that “whose definition” for the “nothing of the sort” you highlighted is not known.

Isn’t it great that Microsoft finally made Outlook free after 27 years! I heeded all the six warnings and four links before I added my Gmail account to new Outlook:

 

Cybertooth wrote:

Windows users need to be very careful when it comes to the new Outlook. We recommend not to use it with third-party accounts at the time of writing until Microsoft publishes an official statement about this.

What statement do you think he expects? I can’t imagine what he wants MS to say.

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b wrote:

That’s the part you chose to add emphasis to! Interesting to me that “whose definition” for the “nothing of the sort” you highlighted is not known.

That is not the entirety of the part that I chose to add emphasis to. Also included in the emphasis was the following, that the new Outlook is

acting entirely as a wrapper around Microsoft’s cloud services and that our local client has never actually logged in at all.

Care to finally address the substance of the issue, rather than definitions? Microsoft appears to intend to phase out classic Outlook that sends and receives email directly to our interlocutor’s server instead of routing it first through Microsoft’s cloud:

The new Outlook for Windows is the future for both the Mail and Calendar apps in Windows and the classic Outlook for Windows.

And that prospect is what Paul Thurrott, XDA Developers, and heise.de among others are highlighting, lest users innocently or breezily click through to open the app.

Heise.de note that this is not the first time Microsoft has sought to get customers’ third-party emails onto its own servers:

An answer to our request for a statement from Microsoft is still pending. At this point in time, however, we must warn against trying out the new Outlook without thinking. In addition to all the emails, some credentials may even end up with Microsoft.

Microsoft already attracted attention with such data redirections at the beginning of the year. After Office updates were applied on Mac computers, Outlook redirected the data to Microsoft’s cloud servers without any user notification. At that time, the remedy was to delete IMAP accounts and set them up again…

As XDA Developers stated in their conclusion:

Whether you’re a power user in business, a systems administrator overseeing a network, or an end user looking for a new email client, it’s important to know the privacy implications of signing in with Outlook.

 

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Cybertooth wrote:

And that prospect is what Paul Thurrott, XDA Developers, and heise.de among others are highlighting, lest users innocently or breezily click through to open the app.

Paul Thurrott expressed no concerns about new Outlook when within the last month he confirmed that classic Outlook will still be available for the next two years, until new Outlook is “complete”.

looking for a new email client, it’s important to know the privacy implications of signing in with Outlook.

I agree with that, but it’s difficult to breezily click through the screens, warnings and links I’ve posted and remain uninformed.

And I’m reassured that Microsoft won’t be reading the text of my emails to target advertising like Google used to do.

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b wrote:

I agree with that, but it’s difficult to breezily click through the screens, warnings and links I’ve posted and remain uninformed.

I’m glad to hear that we agree on the importance of knowing the privacy implications of signing in with (new) Outlook. This is not something that happens very often here at AskWoody.

However, within a few years whatever you or I or anyone else thinks about the privacy implications of New Outlook will become moot, as classic Outlook stops being offered and we are left with no choice but to allow our non-MS emails to go through the Microsoft cloud if we wish to keep using an email program made by Microsoft. That’s the prospective development that led to this thread.

 

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[TJ]

New Microsoft Outlook is sharing user data with 772 advertisers according to
https://www.ghacks.net/2024/01/12/proton-mail-says-that-the-new-outlook-app-for-windows-is-microsofts-new-data-collection-service/

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To access your privacy settings in the new Outlook for Windows:

1. On the View tab, select View settings and choose General.

2. Select Privacy and data then choose Privacy settings.

This opens the Account Privacy settings dialog box where you can select your privacy options.

Access your Account Privacy Settings

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Here’s the analysis by Proton, which goes into more detail than gHacks’s report of it.

This raises a number of questions in my mind:

1. The analysis says that some European users get a pop-up stating that Microsoft shares their data with 772 partners, which can be declined globally (“Reject all”), while UK users are shown a list of advertisers that they would need to toggle off one by one. In this respect, what are users shown in other countries such as the USA?
2. I use Outlook 2019 without a Microsoft Account. Is it possible to use New Outlook without having a Microsoft Account?
3. Proton says that “Per its advertising policy, Microsoft does not use personal data from emails, chats, or documents to target ads”, but then cites Microsoft’s privacy policy stating that it may collect (among many other things) text, inking, and typing data; images; and content. Might a lawyer plausibly argue that both of these statements can be true at the same time, in the sense that while Microsoft does collect all this information, it doesn’t use it “for targeted ads” specifically (but, say, merely to make it available upon subpoena to three-letter agencies)?
4. If we, as a user of New Outlook, go into the privacy settings, how much of this data collection can we disable?

 

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Cybertooth wrote:

Is it possible to use New Outlook without having a Microsoft Account?

Yes.

Cybertooth wrote:

Proton says that “Per its advertising policy, Microsoft does not use personal data from emails, chats, or documents to target ads”, but then cites Microsoft’s privacy policy stating that it may collect (among many other things) text, inking, and typing data; images; and content. Might a lawyer plausibly argue that both of these statements can be true at the same time, in the sense that while Microsoft does collect all this information, it doesn’t use it “for targeted ads” specifically (but, say, merely to make it available upon subpoena to three-letter agencies)?

Both statements are true, but not for that reason.

Inking and typing data is only for suggestions whilst writing or typing and can be disabled:

Inking & Typing Personalisation. Your typed and handwritten words are collected to provide you with a customised word list, better character recognition to help you type and write on your device, and text suggestions that appear as you type or write.

You can turn off inking and typing personalisation at any time. This will delete your customer word list stored on your device. If you turn it back on, you’ll need to recreate your customised word list. Learn more about inking and typing personalisation in Windows.

https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-GB/privacystatement#:~:text=Inking%20%26%20Typing%20Personalisation,in%20Windows.

Microsoft does not read emails or attachments for advertising (or any) purposes. I don’t see where “text”, “images” or “content” are mentioned in any general context (in Microsoft Privacy Statement).

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b wrote:

I don’t see where “text”, “images” or “content” are mentioned in any general context (in Microsoft Privacy Statement).

This information is not shown by default: At the end of the “Personal data we collect” section, the reader needs to think to click on “Learn more” to expose the full text.

 

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I can’t find anything about Microsoft collecting text, images or content there (apart from when they store files to provide services like OneDrive, Outlook.com, Skype etc.)

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That is precisely the problem, @b. Microsoft is getting rid of classic Outlook and new Outlook is but a wrapper for Outlook.com, so the choice to use Outlook and not have one’s content routed through Microsoft servers will be disappearing.

From the “Personal data we collect” section:

The data we collect can include the following:

[…]

Content. Content of your files and communications you input, upload, receive, create, and control. For example, if you transmit a file using Skype to another Skype user, we need to collect the content of that file to display it to you and the other user. If you receive an email using Outlook.com, we need to collect the content of that email to deliver it to your inbox, display it to you, enable you to reply to it, and store it for you until you choose to delete it…

[emphasis added]

Classic Outlook doesn’t “need to collect the content of that email” on Microsoft servers “to deliver it to your inbox.”

 

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I don’t think it’s accurate to say new Outlook is just a wrapper for Outlook.com.

I receive messages sent to my Gmail address in new Outlook, but not at Outlook.com.

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How about addressing the substance of the issue:

Microsoft is getting rid of classic Outlook and new Outlook is but a wrapper for Outlook.com, so the choice to use Outlook and not have one’s content routed through Microsoft servers will be disappearing.

 

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Not an issue for me as I know Microsoft doesn’t read the content of emails for any purpose.

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b wrote:

Not an issue for me as I know Microsoft doesn’t read the content of emails for any purpose.

It does.

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Cybertooth

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“In the end though, the verbiage is that the organization/company (Server) is in a position to collect the data (corporate administrators), not Microsoft. It’s actually pretty clear.”

Allow analysis of sent e-mails to identify people you commonly e-mail and subjects you commonly discuss, and upload this information to the default SharePoint Server

Select or clear this option to manage whether your activity in Outlook is analyzed for colleague and keyword suggestions (a feature designed to help you more quickly connect with people and information in your organization).

Outlook options (Advanced)

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b wrote:

“In the end though, the verbiage is that the organization/company (Server) is in a position to collect the data (corporate administrators), not Microsoft. It’s actually pretty clear.”

And who owns SharePoint?

“While SharePoint Online is a cloud-based service, hosted by Microsoft, which users simply access “as a service” rather than having all the architecture (and relating hardware) existing on their own premises. With SharePoint online, all the “back end” parts of SharePoint are looked after at Microsoft’s end.”

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

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Cybertooth

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bbearren wrote:

And who owns SharePoint?

Essentially, SharePoint Server is a locally-hosted platform that the user organization owns and operates themselves. With SharePoint Server, users are responsible for running and maintaining everything internally, including server architecture, active directory, and file storage.

But since you’ve leapt to SharePoint Online:

You control your data. When you put your data in SharePoint and OneDrive for Microsoft 365, you remain the owner of the data.

How SharePoint and OneDrive safeguard your data in the cloud

Customer Lockbox ensures that Microsoft can’t access your content to do service operations without your explicit approval. Customer Lockbox brings you into the approval workflow process that Microsoft uses to ensure only authorized requests allow access to your content.

Microsoft Purview Customer Lockbox

Customer Lockbox workflow

These steps outline the typical workflow when a Microsoft engineer starts a Customer Lockbox request:

Someone at an organization experiences an issue with their Microsoft 365 mailbox.

After the user troubleshoots the issue, but can’t fix it, they open a support request with Microsoft Support.

A Microsoft support engineer reviews the service request and determines a need to access the organization’s tenant to repair the issue.

The Microsoft support engineer logs into the Customer Lockbox request tool and makes a data access request that includes the organization’s tenant name, service request number, expected start time of access (starts immediately post-approval if not specified), the estimated amount of time the engineer needs access to the data, and the service the request is for.

After a Microsoft Support manager approves the request, Customer Lockbox sends the designated approver at the organization an email notification about the pending access request from Microsoft.

…

Anyone who is assigned the Customer Lockbox access approver admin role in Microsoft 365 admin center can approve Customer Lockbox requests.

The approver signs in to the Microsoft 365 admin center and approves the request. This step triggers the creation of an audit record available by searching the audit log. For more information, see Auditing Customer Lockbox requests.

If the customer rejects the request or doesn’t approve the request within 12 hours, the request expires and no access is granted to the Microsoft engineer.

After the approver from the organization approves the request, the Microsoft engineer receives the approval message, logs into the tenant, and fixes the customer’s issue. Microsoft engineers have the requested duration to fix the issue after which the access is automatically revoked.

Note

All actions performed by a Microsoft engineer are logged in the audit log. You can search for and review these audit records.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/purview/customer-lockbox-requests#:~:text=Lockbox%20overview%20video-,Customer%20Lockbox%20workflow,-These%20steps%20outline

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b wrote:

Not an issue for me as I know Microsoft doesn’t read the content of emails for any purpose.

Show me where Brad Smith’s blog post states that Microsoft doesn’t read the content of emails for any purpose.

Smith’s post has to do with a 2014 case where Microsoft “investigators accessed the Hotmail content of a user who was trafficking in stolen Microsoft source code” (emphasis in the original):

Effective immediately, if we receive information indicating that someone is using our services to traffic in stolen intellectual or physical property from Microsoft, we will not inspect a customer’s private content ourselves. Instead, we will refer the matter to law enforcement if further action is required.

 

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Microsoft had already made it clear for decades that they don’t read emails for other purposes:

Microsoft does not use what you say in email, human-to-human chat, video calls or voicemail, or your documents, photos or other personal files to target ads to you.

Microsoft Privacy Statement

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b wrote:

Microsoft had already made it clear …

“Microsoft’s developer evangelist Jerry Nixon made the announcement at the company’s Ignite conference in Chicago last week.

Windows 10 Bug Art “Right now we’re releasing Windows 10, and because Windows 10 is the last version of Windows, we’re all still working on Windows 10,” he said. But don’t let his comments freak you out — Windows isn’t going away — far from it.

Microsoft is instead changing the way it distributes improvements for the operating system in the future. Instead of releasing a whole new version every few years, as it’s done until now, Microsoft plans to improve Windows through regular updates.

“Recent comments at Ignite about Windows 10 are reflective of the way Windows will be delivered as a service bringing new innovations and updates in an ongoing manner, with continuous value for our consumer and business customers,” a Microsoft spokesperson told PCMag.

This jibes with Microsoft’s recent announcement that it’s killing off Patch Tuesday in favor of pushing out patches to Windows 10 users as soon as they’re ready, on a 24/7 basis.”

 

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

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Could you please explain how your reply is relevant to my post, of which you quoted less than half?

(If it’s not connected with Outlook email it’s off-topic in this thread.)

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b wrote:

(If it’s not connected with Outlook email it’s off-topic in this thread.)

It’s connected with Microsoft and Microsoft making things “clear”, that part of your post which I quoted.

Outlook email is a Microsoft software product.  Over the decades Microsoft has made many things “clear” about their software products, only to forego/deprecate/abandon those things that were previously “clear”.

Does Microsoft read emails?  They have made that “clear”.  Can Microsoft read emails?  Any time they wish to do so.  Can a bad actor read Outlook emails?

“The breach is reminiscent of one that hit Microsoft last year when China-state hackers, tracked as Storm-0558, broke into Microsoft’s network. Over the next month, the group accessed Azure and Exchange accounts of multiple customers, several of which belonged to the US Departments of State and Commerce.”

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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bbearren wrote:

Does Microsoft read emails?

No.

The rest is off-topic — again.

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b wrote:

No.

From the linked article in the OP:

“When questioned, Microsoft said that the password is stored encrypted on their service and they have no access to it. This isn’t strictly true, the password has to be unencrypted every time they call up your email, so whilst individual employees might not have direct access to your email passwords, the system does, which means, in theory, an employee looking after that system could also de-encrypt the passwords.

We also saw a couple of months back that Microsoft lost its own encryption keys in a crash-dump that wasn’t handled properly and had that key in the clear within the dump, which is how hackers managed to get hold of it. So, if a server crashes whilst it is pulling a user’s email, it could have the password in the memory dump.

The Data Protection Registrars in the EU aren’t, as you can guess, very pleased with this turn of events. The information that Microsoft is creating shadow Microsoft Accounts isn’t explicitly made, when you add accounts to New Outlook. Likewise, they are using the emails stored in the cloud for analysis, but nothing in the T&Cs on how they will use the data, whether it stays in your “MA” space or whether it can/will be used for wider co-pilot or marketing purposes.

Basically, if you have gone so far as to not want to use a MA with Windows 11, you shouldn’t use the New Outlook, because MS will be creating an MA in the background to store and analyse your emails.

If you don’t want Microsoft to have the passwords to your other accounts, you shouldn’t use the New Outook.

Naturally, if you are happy to use an MA with Windows 11 and think that MS analysing your emails for co-pilot and maybe other uses will bring you benefits, there is nothing to stop you using New Outlook.”

bbearren wrote:

Does Microsoft read emails?

Maybe not.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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bbearren wrote:

Likewise, they are using the emails stored in the cloud for analysis, but nothing in the T&Cs on how they will use the data, whether it stays in your “MA” space or whether it can/will be used for wider co-pilot or marketing purposes.

Mixture of pure supposition and fake news.

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b wrote:

Microsoft had already made it clear for decades that they don’t read emails for other purposes:

Microsoft does not use what you say in email, human-to-human chat, video calls or voicemail, or your documents, photos or other personal files to target ads to you.

Microsoft Privacy Statement

Clarification, please: You claimed in a previous post that “…Microsoft doesn’t read the content of emails for any purpose” [emphasis added] and, in ostensible support of this claim, linked to a blog post by Brad Smith that said nothing about Microsoft not reading the content of emails for any purpose.

But in your response quoted at the top of this post, you assert that “Microsoft had already made it clear for decades that they don’t read emails for other purposes.” [emphasis added]

Please provide a reference/link supporting the assertion that MS has made it clear “for decades” that they don’t read emails, be that for any purpose or “for other purposes” (which BTW implies that they do read emails for some purpose, just not “other” purposes). Because we are in 2024, the reference would need to be from no later than 2004.

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NaNoNyMouse

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I don’t have a reference from 20 or more years ago.

(The “other” was in answer to your previous post.)

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… but “Don’t get scroogled” was more than ten years ago:

Outlook.com – We don’t go through your email to sell ads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4UvLMU82jc

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After denying MS attempts to force me into the NEW Outlook, which I use to conveniently access 8 email addresses in the old version, they forced it upon me this morning. There is no longer a toggle switch to return to the older version. Does anyone know of a way to revert back to the OLD version? Question 2 – Is there an alternative email handler that will give me convenient access to 8 separate email accounts (comprised of G mail, Outlook, and Comcast accounts?

Windows 10 Home. HP 12GB RAM 256GB SSD 4year old desktop.

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Bookman wrote:

they forced it upon me this morning

How did Microsoft force anything on you ? Don’t you manage all updates ?

Restore your system from the latest image backup or switch off outlook new

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I follow Susan Bradley’s advice for updates. I seem to no longer have a way to toggle off this NEW Outlook ergo I am forced to accept this New Outlook which I prefer to not use based upon this forum post. Do you know of a way to toggle back to the Old Outlook?

Windows 10 Home. HP 12GB RAM 256GB SSD 4year old desktop.

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Bookman wrote:

There is no longer a toggle switch to return to the older version. Does anyone know of a way to revert back to the OLD version?

Look in the Start Menu for Outlook. You should find 2 listed…one is for the new and one for the classic (aka: OLD). Make sure you have the correct one before pinning that one to the Task Bar.

HTH, Dana:))

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Bookman

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Regrettably, my only option in the Start Menu is OUTLOOK (new).

Windows 10 Home. HP 12GB RAM 256GB SSD 4year old desktop.

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Restore from image backup and block new outlook using blocking updates like : Notify=2 in Windows Pro, Wumgr, block Microsoft Store updates…

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Bookman

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Bookman wrote:

Regrettably, my only option in the Start Menu is OUTLOOK (new).

Hi Bookman:

What is your Windows operating system, and before you were switched to the “new” Outlook PWA (progressive web app) were you using a “classic” edition of Outlook (e.g., an Outlook program bundled with a paid Microsoft Office suite of programs) or were you using the free Mail app bundled with your Windows OS?

If you were using the free Mail app then it’s unlikely you can go back to using that app. See the February 2024 Neowin article The old Windows Mail app is working again, but not for long.
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Dell Inspiron 15 5584 * 64-bit Win 10 Pro v22H2 build 19045.4529 * Firefox v127.0.0 * Microsoft Defender v4.18.24050.7-1.1.24050.5 * Malwarebytes Premium v5.1.5.116-1.0.1252 * Macrium Reflect Free v8.0.7783 * Microsoft Office Home and Business 2019 Version 2405 / Build 17628.20110 C2R

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Bookman

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Windows 10 Home. MS Office Free. I appreciate your help very much. I have decided to only use MS product for MS emails I have. I will open my Google and Comcast accounts in their respective sites. Plus this has caused me to buy an iMac. Goodbye MS.

Windows 10 Home. HP 12GB RAM 256GB SSD 4year old desktop.

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Bookman wrote:

MS Office Free.

Never included Outlook (until New Outlook).

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Bookman wrote:

Windows 10 Home. MS Office Free….this has caused me to buy an iMac. Goodbye MS.

Hi Bookman:

Further to b’s post # 2681446, if you still require assistance please post back and provide more details about your “MS Office Free” software. Does that mean you normally use Outlook in your browser instead of a MS Outlook program that is installed on your hard drive?

I use a paid edition of Microsoft Office Home and Business 2019 Click-to-Run (C2R) on my Win 10 v22H2 machine that is installed on my hard drive and it is listed at Control Panel | Programs | Programs and Features.

When I click the Start button on my Windows desktop I can see two email programs – the MS Outlook program that is part of my Microsoft Office 2019 C2R suite, and the free Windows Mail program that came bundled with my Win 10 operating system (which I do not use). See the attached image of my Start menu.

I signed up for a free Microsoft email address and I can send and receive mails from a variety of mail accounts by either launching my installed MS Outlook 2019 program from my Start menu, or by logging in to my Microsoft account at https://outlook.live.com/mail/0/ and using Microsoft’s Outlook.com webmail application from my browser.

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Dell Inspiron 15 5584 * 64-bit Win 10 Pro v22H2 build 19045.4529 * Firefox v127.0.0 * Microsoft Defender v4.18.24050.7-1.1.24050.5 * Malwarebytes Premium v5.1.5.116-1.0.1252 * Macrium Reflect Free v8.0.7783 Microsoft Office Home and Business 2019 C2R v2405 / Build 17628.20144

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Bookman wrote:

Regrettably, my only option in the Start Menu is OUTLOOK (new).

That leaves the last method I know of, which is editing the Registry.

Close Outlook.
Open the Registry (regedit). Copy the registry key below, highlight the key address box at the top of the Registry Editor and paste the copied key below into that box and press the Enter key.

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Office\16.0\Outlook\Preferences

With Preferences highlighted in the left pane scroll down the list of Values in the right pane the the bottom of the list for the Value named: UseNewOutlook. (as shown below)
Right click this UseNewOutlook Value and select Modify. In the Value data box change the value to 0 (which turns using the new Outlook off) as shown below. Click OK to accept your change and close the Registry Editor.

HTH, Dana:))

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Bookman, Vincenzo, Cybertooth

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For those that want the command to enter that Registry value to NOT use the New Outlook:

Close Outlook.

Copy the following command:

reg add HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Office\16.0\Outlook\Preferences /v UseNewOutlook /t REG_DWORD /d 00000000 /f

Open an Administrator Command window (Open a Run box (WinKey +R), enter cmd, press Ctrl + Shift + Enter keys at the same time, and Yes to the UAC query.)

At the prompt right click to paste the copied command and press the Enter key.

The prompt will respond that the operation was successful.

HTH, Dana:))

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Vincenzo, Alex5723

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I appreciate all the time you spent solving this riddle. I am in mid 70’s and came to this game too late in life to begin editing registry items. I do hope you answers will help others facing the same issues. I have decided to only use MS product for MS emails I have. I will open my Google and Comcast accounts in their respective sites. Plus this has caused me to buy an iMac. Goodbye MS.

Windows 10 Home. HP 12GB RAM 256GB SSD 4year old desktop.

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Dana,

Is the purpose of the key created in your previous post to stop the “try the New Outlook” toggle from appearing? or will it also stop MS from switching you to the new Outlook without permission?

Thanks

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Vincenzo wrote:

Is the purpose of the key created in your previous post to stop the “try the New Outlook” toggle from appearing? or will it also stop MS from switching you to the new Outlook without permission?

The HideNewOutlookToggle registry value is in a different key and controlled the try toggle switch only.  This is a different registry value in a different key that prevents the new Outlook from running, with then causes Outlook to use the Classic version.  This registry value is added to some versions via an update so it is possible the update could turn it on, but running that command will turn it off again.  I would place that command in a Notepad bat file to save for future use.

HTH, Dana:))

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Cybertooth, Vincenzo

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OK thanks

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