New computer for Windows 10: Hybrid?

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While I still make a living on a computer, it’s now just a part time job as I’m semi-retired. I currently have an aging Dell laptop with a 15″ screen and Win7. I can work on that size screen but there are times where I need the two additional (larger) screens I have connected to a Targus docking station. Actually one additional is all I really use 90% of the time but the docking station is handy and it supports two so what the heck.

With Win10 on the horizon, I rather suspect that there are a few people thinking about a new computer. I certainly am, but this is probably the first time in a very long time where I’m very conflicted on which way to go. At this point, I’m just looking at newer laptop to replace my existing version. But before I go much further down that road, I thought I’d toy with the idea of a hybrid laptop/tablet.

I know from setting up and testing out an ASUS T100 for a friend last year that there’s a lot you can do with that kind of configuration, including connecting it to a docking hub like I do now. A 10″ screen would be too small, but a 12″ wouldn’t so the Surface Pro 3 is a viable option. However, I can see almost no advantage to having a dual purpose tablet/laptop. I’ve already got an iPad and 12″ is a bit large for a tablet. I haven’t been a road warrior for many moons now and the few times I’ve taken my iPad to meetings, I found that paper and pen worked just as well, if not better. (Hey, I’m old, give me a break!)

Of course, everyone has different wants and needs. Leaving out the “cool factor” of a hybrid, what’s the appeal for someone who isn’t a road warrior.

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I have a tablet for mobility and a desktop for “normal” use. I find I get more for my money doing it this way.

cheers, Paul

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I rather suspect that I’m going to repeat what I already have, maybe sometime next year.

There was a time when I couldn’t see using a laptop as a replacement for a desktop, but that’s just what I’ve been doing for the past 2 years. Perhaps there will come a time a few years from now when a hybrid will be able to fill that roll but I’m not sure we are there yet.

I’m just enough of an explorer that I’m still considering it. But I fear that the tablet will just sit on the desk and won’t do double duty to replace the iPad, so I will have spent that extra money for nothing.

Problem is, I’m a Geek. But I’m kind of a hybrid Luddite/Geek if that makes any sense. Probably comes from starting with computers in 1972 when the rate of change was nice and slow and one person could actually know almost everything. Basically I hate Moore’s law but live in a world governed by it.

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It sounds to me like you could use an “all in one” type of machine setup.
That’ll give a very decent amount of viewing realestate without the fuss of a full on bulk desktop computer.

Browse around and check them out, most of the major manufacturers have them.

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Well I am suspect, as my 3 last laptops, 2 were tablet Pcs (Toshiba Tecra M4 and Portegé M750) and 1 is an hybrid of sorts – a Toshiba u920t. So I would say, definitely go with a hybrid :). I think the Surface Pro 3 is a bit on the expensive side, but the non Pro seems a great option.

On both the Tecra MM4 and the M750, I used the stylus extensively to take notes or comment documents. I don’t need to do it as much as I did now, but I hear that the Surface stylus works wonderfully. :).

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It sounds to me like you could use an “all in one” type of machine setup.

Sorry, but that misses one of the marks completely – it needs to be portable. The reason I’m considering a hybrid is that it can be used as a 3 in 1 (or 2.5 in 1). It can be a laptop, a modest desktop, and a tablet. It’s the third one that I’m not sure I really need.

So I would say, definitely go with a hybrid :). I think the Surface Pro 3 is a bit on the expensive side, but the non Pro seems a great option.

Part of the Surface Pro 3 price is the stylus display, which is more expensive than the more common touch screen. I had ruled out the Surface in preference to the Pro earlier but that may have been premature.

One of the things that still bugs me in this is screen size. Since this has to do duty as a laptop on the rare occasions where I hit the road, the screen needs to be large enough that I don’t get eye strain. That makes the larger 13.3 screens attractive but then that becomes rather too big for a tablet.

Lots to think about, not least of which is whether or not I’m willing to replace my iPad with a Windows tablet.

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My Tecra M4 was 14″, it was a bit too big and heavy, but I often took it across the classroom and interacted with students while taking notes on it.

Both the M750 and the u920t are 12″. Size is not really that bad and I can even code on them. I guess 10.1″ would feel a bit to cramped, though.

I guess there is nothing like going into a shop and experimenting a bit. That should give you a much better idea on how the regular Surface Pro and the Pro 3 can work for you.

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I actually have looked at the Surface Pro 3 and while the display is a bit small, it’s not bad at all. One thing I have to look into is what the display resolution options are. If it’s limited to 2160×1440, that’s going to end up with things being a bit small. I need to get somewhere that has one I can spend some time looking at.

One thing I do make use of a lot is Remote Desktop and trying to get that to look right could be a challenge. Fortunately, I can probably run that on an external monitor.

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I actually have looked at the Surface Pro 3 and while the display is a bit small, it’s not bad at all. One thing I have to look into is what the display resolution options are. If it’s limited to 2160×1440, that’s going to end up with things being a bit small. I need to get somewhere that has one I can spend some time looking at.

One thing I do make use of a lot is Remote Desktop and trying to get that to look right could be a challenge. Fortunately, I can probably run that on an external monitor.

Can’t help with that, unfortunately, but seems a legitimate concern. It’s a high resolution for a small screen. You can run it on an external monitor, but you will need to buy an adapter (it’s all adding up with the Surface).

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Can’t help with that, unfortunately, but seems a legitimate concern. It’s a high resolution for a small screen. You can run it on an external monitor, but you will need to buy an adapter (it’s all adding up with the Surface).

Well, trying to run any hybrid as a 3-in-1 is going to result in the need for extra stuff. I’ve already got the Targus dock I can plug into which gives me network, usb hub, and two monitors so that’s taken care of.

So, let’s say that a hybrid can work for me. Looking at the Surface Pro 3, the i5/4gb/128gb model with keyboard cover is just under $1000 on Amazon. The next thing would be, what others are worth considering. I’ve seen mention of the Asus Transformer T300, HP Spectre, Lenovo Yoga, Samsung Activ. Probably more.

One other interesting question, at some point, these computers will start shipping with Win10 installed. There might be a price break for versions with Win8.1 that will need upgrading. And being a frugal type, that’s a consideration. But I’ve never been keen on major upgrades like this if I can have a clean install instead.

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Yeah, I agree, an hybrid does require extra stuff. I guess that for the price, a keyboard and the stylus should be included, but Microsoft does want this as an high margin product.

If budget is not a problem, I think there isn’t much better than the Surface, IMO. Build quality is great, probably on a level none of the others can even aspire.

Windows 10 is just around the corner. I would think they will want some flagship products to show off the new, shiny OS. Unless you have an urgent need, it may be simpler to get one with Windows 10.

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I’m leaning toward waiting till they start shipping with Win10. If there were an easy way to wipe the drive and do a clean install of Win10, that would be another matter.

Two interesting alternatives to the Surface that are much more like a laptop are the Toshiba Portege Z20t and the Dell Latitude 13 7000. Both have larger screens and come with much more robust keyboards but are heavier because of that. Particularly the Portege which has an additional battery in the keyboard. But that shouldn’t be a problem for me.

Even if I do nothing for now, this is an interesting exploration because it really shows how sophisticated things have gotten.

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The alternatives’ CPUs seem less powerful than the Surface’s. Probably better on battery life, though.

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The alternatives’ CPUs seem less powerful than the Surface’s. Probably better on battery life, though.

I’m starting to see that. Found a really in depth review of the Z20t and it lagged behind the SP3 in every test they did. I could take that because I don’t need to do any processor intensive work. BUT, the killer is heat – the i5 SP3 gets hotter than the i3 SP3, but the Core M processor in the Z20t gets even hotter – uncomfortably so.

Here’s a question that hasn’t been asked… I’ve used a Logitech Tablet Keyboard with an iPad, which is larger than some of the folio types but smaller than a normal keyboard. It’s a bit over 12″ wide and was OK but a bit cramped. This is about the same size as the keypad for the SP3 – how is the Type Cover to type on for any length of time?

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Yeah, the processor for the Z20t seems to have been conceived for fanless designs and it seems, in tablet mode, it can reach temps of 106 degrees. Ouch.

As for the type cover, all I can state is what I have read. Paul Thurrott suggested getting a bluetooth keyboard, if you plan to do a lot of typing. I guess that in this case, a bit of on hands testing can be the best option?

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As for the type cover, all I can state is what I have read. Paul Thurrott suggested getting a bluetooth keyboard, if you plan to do a lot of typing. I guess that in this case, a bit of on hands testing can be the best option?

I’ve seen the same comment. For the office, I have my hub with a nice wired KUL keyboard and a comfortable Dell mouse I’ve used for ages. But for the occasional road trip I need something portable. I’m not a road warrior so I don’t really need something thin like the Type Cover and hate to pay that much when I can get a better keyboard for less. But this is a topic by itself.

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If you’re using your computer at a non-home workplace, such a hybrid may well make sense. I noticed a comment from a semi-retired person. Allow me to add my perspective as one who is fully retired. I use a Toshiba 13″ BUSINESS-MODEL tablet, which means it has a FULL docking station, not just a USB 3.0 port replicator, which provides much faster connections than USB, and has more ports. So my first recommendation is that, if you get a new computer, I would get one that has such a docking station. It also weighs only 3 lbs. and, as a result, I can carry it in a briefcase-size laptop bag when I travel, and not only keep my computer and all needed peripherals in it, along with travel documents, e-reader, etc., and easily carry it by hand. (my former computer and its accoutrements were heavy & bulky enough that I needed a wheeled computer bag.) With a larger monitor, good keyboard, as well as all other peripherals on the dock, I get the benefits of a “standard” computer when at home, and an easily-carried portable when on a trip. The only drawback is on-CPU graphics, which can slow things down or even freeze at times, if running multiple programs.

I rooted a Nook to use as a tablet, found it fun for about a week, and haven’t used it since. When away from home, I get all the connectivity I need to keep up on e-mail, ongoing games, etc., on my smartphone. Anything requiring more screen real estate or processing power can wait until I return to my computer (home or away), and a tablet, for me, is just something bulkier to carry that you can’t put in a pocket, and is only marginally more capable than a smartphone. This does prevent me from dealing with 30+ e-mails in the evening, on days when I’m mostly away from home, as I can “catch up” while waiting in doctor’s offices, restaurants, etc. Again, business users may find the tablet far more useful than I.

Not needing or wanting a touch screen on my laptop, I’ll probably upgrade my current setup to Win10, after the bugs are worked out by the first adopters, and if it proves not to be another Win8 disaster. If I ever do get a new laptop, it’ll be another lightweight with a true docking station, with the hope that, even if weight & cooling concerns again preclude a separate graphics card, that advances in chip technology will provide better on-chip graphics performance.

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A quick update to something I said earlier… The Portege Z20t actually uses a newer (M-5Y71) CPU than the SP3 (i5-4300U). It is actually slower in most benchmarks, but it uses quite a bit less power. That added to the additional battery in the keyboard are what give the Z20t such a good battery life.

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Yes, it is newer, but it is quite less powerful, being a very low power version – TDP just 4.5 W. It’s really a choice between more power or less battery. I confess I never liked these very low power versions, they are quite slower than regular processors.

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I confess I never liked these very low power versions, they are quite slower than regular processors.

Creating lower power/performance versions of CPU’s is by no means a new practice. Everything in a “portable” computer is a tradeoff. But for average use, many laptops are perfectly capable of working as desktops.

The laptop I use now is a few years old and has an i5-2410M with 4GB memory and a 128GB SSD and, based on the numbers, is roughly equal in performance to the CPU in the Z20t. So I’m really not worried about losing much in the way of performance over what I’m using now.

What started me looking at this in the first place is the release of Win10. I avoided Win8 because it had nothing to offer me, but Win10 looks to be worth upgrading to. If I’m going to do that, then why not look at something that can take advantage of it and perhaps replace both my older laptop and iPad.

This is really a classic case of finding the best balance in the advantages/disadvantages. I won’t say that cost doesn’t play a role but if that were the driving force, I probably wouldn’t be looking any anything more expensive than the Asus T300.

As to Comedians suggestion of a real docking station, I’m not sure if the Surface Pro 3 fits that bill or not. But the Targus USB 3 dock I’m using now works remarkably well. It has Ethernet that’s as fast as the one in my laptop and support for 2 monitors, sound, and several USB ports. I can’t imagine my needing any more.

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For what it’s worth, I have an old Dell XPS 1530M that would not install Windows 8 or 8.1 but runs Windows 10 10240 very well. I had upgraded the HD to 256 SSD a couple of years ago and it is very serviceable for my needs. I also have two elderly desktops that also run 10240 very well.

Just an FYI for any concerned about old hardware.

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For what it’s worth, I have an old Dell XPS 1530M that would not install Windows 8 or 8.1 but runs Windows 10 10240 very well. I had upgraded the HD to 256 SSD a couple of years ago and it is very serviceable for my needs. I also have two elderly desktops that also run 10240 very well.

Just an FYI for any concerned about old hardware.

Just a word of warning, that situation may or may not last into the release version. With 8 and 8.1, the CPU requirements were raised for the release version. Many people who were running betas were not able to upgrade to the release version.

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Here is the latest three items to come from my research.

The CPU in the Portege Z20t has lower performance ratings than a similarly configured Surface Pro 3, no surprise since the Core M is giving up some processing power for better battery usage. Comparing it to my current laptop shows that it has a somewhat higher performance rating, which isn’t a surprise because my laptop is several years old. I can therefore assume that anything I get will at least perform as well and should perform better than what I have now.

The big surprise I got has to do with one of my pet peeves about Microsoft – Office. A while back, I started a thread that really took off regarding my attempts to find a Word alternative that was “simpler”. Well, I was just reading that MS is releasing a new set of Universal (Metro/tablet/mobile) Office apps for Windows 10. From what I can see, these would be perfectly adequate for me and have the advantage of being simpler with a much smaller footprint. (https://blogs.office.com/2015/02/04/next-chapter-office-windows/)

The Dell 7350 has the same processor and performance as the Z20t, but it has a larger a 13.3 screen with Gorilla Glass. But it lacks the extra battery that makes the Z20t attractive. Still, I have a really long and favorable history with Dell and the Latitude line of laptops. Certainly worth a closer look.

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The big surprise I got has to do with one of my pet peeves about Microsoft – Office. A while back, I started a thread that really took off regarding my attempts to find a Word alternative that was “simpler”. Well, I was just reading that MS is releasing a new set of Universal (Metro/tablet/mobile) Office apps for Windows 10. From what I can see, these would be perfectly adequate for me and have the advantage of being simpler with a much smaller footprint. (https://blogs.office.com/2015/02/04/next-chapter-office-windows/)

But the Office apps are only free for editing features on phones and small tablets (and my 10.1″ netbook!). Otherwise they require an Office 365 subscription:

Office for Windows 10 will require Office 365 subscription on PCs, larger tablets

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MS has been bouncing back and forth on whether to require a subscription or not for at least the past 6 months. I had not seen that latest post. At one point recently they were discussing having a free reduced feature version which was fine with me. I wish they would make up their minds!

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MS has been bouncing back and forth on whether to require a subscription or not for at least the past 6 months. I had not seen that latest post. At one point recently they were discussing having a free reduced feature version which was fine with me. I wish they would make up their minds!

The current situation in build 10240 apparently adheres to what Microsoft “announced” in March 2015:

Based on our research, we are classifying anything with a screen size of 10.1 inches or less as a true mobile device: …

On these devices, the core editing and viewing experience is free, until you get to those premium, subscription features.

Mobile versus professional—thoughts on the Office business

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Unfortunately, MS is simply doing what they have always done. They are using an arbitrary standard to determine if someone is a personal or professional user and thus determine what features they need.

If I have a 12″ screen, I must be a professional so I have to pay for a subscription. But I’m allowed to pay for a Personal User subscription, which also includes Publisher and Access which are business oriented apps. This is done not so much to help the user as it is to help their bottom line. And they don’t even do it consistently!

BUT, this really has nothing to do with this thread so I’ll just bite my tongue.

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Well, for what it’s worth, I got one. Picked up an i5 4/128 plus a type cover and dock on Amazon for $960.

Did the upgrade to 10 (fairly easy) over the weekend and have spent some time installing stuff I need day-to-day. So far, so good. This weekend, I’m going to set it up side by side with my regular computer and run some things in parallel to see how they behave.

This might not work for a power user but so far I have only run into a few annoyances and it’s going to be tough to sort out whether it’s the computer or the OS that’s creating the issue.

Screen resolution is indeed an issue for me. It’s just too small for my taste (and eyes) so I had to enlarge it a bit. Problem is the Surface screen is a 3:2 and the only resolution that fits is the native 2160×1440. So any other resolution I choose is going to be slightly letterboxed.

If nothing else, this is going to be an interesting experiment.

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Yeah, screen resolution can be a big issue. I have 4 computers [3 Windows and 1 Linux] hooked via a KVM to one 21.5″ monitor, use 1440×900 on all 4 with 125% for text size, seems to be a good setup. It took awhile to find a ‘happy medium’ when changing from the CRT and CRT Flat Screen monitors to LCD Flat Panel units.

Before you wonder "Am I doing things right," ask "Am I doing the right things?"

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Well, for what it’s worth, I got one. Picked up an i5 4/128 plus a type cover and dock on Amazon for $960.

Did the upgrade to 10 (fairly easy) over the weekend and have spent some time installing stuff I need day-to-day. So far, so good. This weekend, I’m going to set it up side by side with my regular computer and run some things in parallel to see how they behave.

This might not work for a power user but so far I have only run into a few annoyances and it’s going to be tough to sort out whether it’s the computer or the OS that’s creating the issue.

Screen resolution is indeed an issue for me. It’s just too small for my taste (and eyes) so I had to enlarge it a bit. Problem is the Surface screen is a 3:2 and the only resolution that fits is the native 2160×1440. So any other resolution I choose is going to be slightly letterboxed.

If nothing else, this is going to be an interesting experiment.

Congrats on the buy. Please keep us posted on your experience :).

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I’m going to have to experiment. I’ve written down each of the allowable resolutions and see which are closest to a 3:2 ratio to minimize letterboxing. Plus play with the zoom %. But I still know what with that small a screen there’s going to have to be a compromise between readability and screen territory.

One thing with a screen this small, I’ll likely run almost everything maximized. Also need to experiment with tablet mode.

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This weekend, I decided to spend some time with the Surface Pro 3 as a tablet. While my initial concern was that it might not work out as a laptop replacement, I’m finding my main issues are probably going to be with using it as a tablet.

It’s probably because I’m used to how an iPad and a Windows Phone work, but using full Windows apps isn’t working well for me. And the pen doesn’t work anything like the way I expected. So, it’s really going to take me some time to get used to this.

If ever a PC needed to come with a big tutorial (paper not pdf), it’s this one.

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It«s probably a matter of habit…

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It«s probably a matter of habit…

And expectations. Different is different, no reason for me to expect it not to be. :rolleyes:

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And expectations. Different is different, no reason for me to expect it not to be. :rolleyes:

Indeed :).

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Here is an update. The jury is still out on this setup. I have an Surface Pro 3 with dock and for now I’ve connected that to a spare 22″ LCD TV with an HDMI cable. Having the bigger screen makes it a lot easier to do day to day work. Because trying to do the same thing on the small SP3 screen is turning out to be problematical.

Perhaps the biggest issue is dealing with standard Windows programs. There doesn’t seem to be a good balance between Resolution and Scaling that works for both standard and modern apps. And switching to tablet mode just amplifies the issue.

This is turning out to be enough of an issue that it deserves a thread of it’s own. I really need to do some more comparison testing first though to see if I can find a balance that works better than the default.

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I’ve settled on 1920×1200 @ 150% as a good compromise. It’s still a bit small but not that bad.

After spending quite a bit of time fooling with display resolution, power settings, and many more things, I have found that I am starting to like this setup. It’s very different than an iPad when it comes to acting as a tablet, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

I’m not sure why or what I did, but my battery power has greatly increased – something that was a real problem for a while. I’ve been using this off and on for the past 2.5 hrs, mainly on the internet, and the battery is on 77% which it says is about 7hrs remaining.

Trying to use the SP3 in the lap, with the type cover, is not particularly easy – I’m doing that right now and I really need more lap or a lap desk. This is one case where the design falls short. But other than that, it seems to work fairly well. Performance is quite good for everything I have tried and the type cover works quite well.

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I’ve settled on 1920×1200 @ 150% as a good compromise. It’s still a bit small but not that bad.

After spending quite a bit of time fooling with display resolution, power settings, and many more things, I have found that I am starting to like this setup. It’s very different than an iPad when it comes to acting as a tablet, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

I’m not sure why or what I did, but my battery power has greatly increased – something that was a real problem for a while. I’ve been using this off and on for the past 2.5 hrs, mainly on the internet, and the battery is on 77% which it says is about 7hrs remaining.

Trying to use the SP3 in the lap, with the type cover, is not particularly easy – I’m doing that right now and I really need more lap or a lap desk. This is one case where the design falls short. But other than that, it seems to work fairly well. Performance is quite good for everything I have tried and the type cover works quite well.

Nice feedback, thanks :).

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The September firmware update had a fix for USB power consumption. Firmware updates are cumulative. So, if you missed any that may have had power related fixes you’ll get them too with the September patch.

Joe

--Joe

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Here is another update and it may go beyond what some are interested in.

Win10/SP3 Tablet Mode remains a bit of a mystery to me. I can’t quite get a handle on what it might be good for. It seems more of a step back to Win8 which combines the worst parts of an iPad with Windows.

That issue aside, I’m getting more comfortable with using Win10 without a keyboard but the surface pen really needs a capacitive touch nub on the other side because the active touch end sucks at scrolling and doing a lot of touch functions.

As tablets go, Windows comes in a distant 3rd to Android and iPad when it comes to available applications. There aren’t that many tablet friendly apps and those few I have seen aren’t that interesting or impressive.

From the start, I didn’t think that I would be able to replace my iPad with the SP3 and I was right. I can do some things on the SP3 as well or better than on the iPad, but others are sadly lacking. This is most notable when it comes to the few games I have – most of which are puzzles like Quell and The Room.

One good thing about the SP3 is that it’s easy to connect to my TV to watch online content and the screen is good enough that I can pretty much use it as a laptop video player. That could prove handy on trips.

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