MS-DEFCON 1: Pushing off Copilot

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ISSUE 20.40.1 • 2023-10-05 By Susan Bradley This week offers a perfect example of why I don’t rush to update. Ultimately, I want to understand the cha
[See the full post at: MS-DEFCON 1: Pushing off Copilot]

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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WSDKS01, LH, abbodi86, rc primak, lmacri, David F, Chris-t, DLivesInTexas, windbg, Alex5723

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Windows Copilot’s is showing third-party Ads to Windows users

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Alex5723 wrote:

Windows Copilot’s is showing third-party Ads to Windows users

In my experience, Copilot is impotent without Edge.  Remove Edge and all things Bing from the PC, and Copilot becomes an impotent icon on the Taskbar, which can be hidden.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Ascaris, Perq, Chris-t

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Since some of us are hanging onto win10, I think you need to have two defcons – one for 11 and one for 10. I’m guessing that the defcon 1 doesn’t apply to use 10’ers, right?

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This is defer update time for 10 as well

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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jburk07

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Could you clarify?  As I read it the copilot stuff was only a win11 thing and we win10 folk wouldn’t be bothered with it.   If so, what is the “date” you refer to for win10 folk.

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This is the time of the month that I always recommend deferring updates and ensuring you have a pause in place.  While Windows 10 is not getting Copilot, it did get the Microsoft backup app, so I recommend putting updates on defer or pause no matter what the OS so that we better understand and know the side effects.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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I have two Win10 machines I was going to update with the September patches, should I hold off at this point?

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Susan gave the go-ahead for the Sept. patches for Win10 22H2. They had/have DEFCON-4 approval. Check the Master Patch List (button at the top of the Main Blog page) for information on individual patches.

The Oct. patches are coming out on the 10th (Tuesday), and the rating for them at this point is DEFCON-1 = hold patches until later in the month to see if there are any problems.

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I never thought I would say it but Windows 10 is looking better and better (compared to Windows 11).  So I’ll be one of those that ride Win10 into the sunset and then I’ll move back to Linux Mint!

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Agreed – my main desktop is Win10 and my laptop which I only use when traveling is Win11.  I think I will wait until Win12 to by a new desktop.

Custom Build - Intel i5 9400 5 Core CPU & ASUS TUF Z390 Plus Motherboard
Edition Windows 10 Home
Version 22H2

Dell Laptop - Inspiron 15 11th Generation Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-1135G7 Processor
Edition Windows 11 Home
Version 23H2

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Susan Bradley wrote:

Ultimately, I want to understand the changes coming to my desktop and ensure that I know exactly what they do.

As do I.  That is the reason I prepare for and install every update offered to my systems.  I always have a recent drive image and my data is backed up 4 ways.  I won’t know what the changes are until they are installed on my systems.

What I have ascertained so far is that Copilot is helpless without logging into the PC with a Microsoft account and using Edge to open Bing, which is the source of the AI.  In my systems, including my recently resurrected and upgraded Dell Latitude E5420 there is no Edge, no Bing anything.  As for the upcoming Office integration, I won’t be buying into that.

Edge, Bing, Copilot and a Microsoft account on the PC all have way too many tentacles that lead back to Microsoft and a lack of controlled privacy, so I have excised the first two, which renders the third helpless, and I’ve never had a user account that was a Microsoft account.

If one wishes to preserve one’s privacy, create a local account (or two; at least one local account needs to be a member of the Administrators group) and delete the Microsoft account from the system.  Give up on Edge as a browser, remove it from the system, and don’t use Bing.  I don’t use Google, either, for the same privacy concerns, and use DuckDuckGo instead.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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rbailin, Cybertooth, Chris-t, Mothy

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Thank you for the great info on what needs to be done to neuter Copilot and take back some control and privacy over one’s Windows computer. Although it goes without saying it’s a daunting task for most to even consider but is an option if one chooses to pursue.

Another option if one can do it, would be to forgo Windows all together and take back complete control of your hardware from Microsoft by installing/using something like Linux Mint instead. Then there is no need to remove unwanted “features” like this or take any kind of extensive measures to try to control your computer or worry about what information is collected from you and your system or about future updates breaking something because Microsoft is always changing things to constantly attempt to monetize you. Instead as stated on the Linux Mint website:

“Home rule

It’s your computer, your rules. This is a key principle at Linux Mint. We don’t collect data, we don’t work against you. You’re the boss. Your operating system is designed to do what you want without getting in your way.”

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windbg, Chris-t

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Mothy wrote:

Another option if one can do it, would be to forgo Windows all together and take back complete control of your hardware from Microsoft by installing/using something like Linux Mint instead.

I’ve given Linux Mint a try, as well as several other distros of Linux.  I don’t care for Linux.  I’ve been making Windows run the way I want it to run (as a platform for the things I want to do) for a couple of decades, now.  I’m quite familiar with the ins and outs of Windows.  In my experience it isn’t difficult to refine Windows into my way of running.  Of course I understand that it’s not a path for everyone, but it works well for me.

I always upgrade, never clean install, with the exception of Windows 7, as there was no direct upgrade path from XP.  The Windows installations that I’m running now (dual boot on my daily driver desktop and my Dell Latitude E5420) have remnants of Windows 7 here and there, and no, that has not caused me any issues whatsoever.  My Windows installations all went from Windows 7 to Windows 8 to Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 and now Windows 11.

With each upgrade, the only things I needed to get rid of were the additions that came with that upgrade.  The other detritus has long since been removed.  Libraries and Special Folders reappear from time to time, but I have a registry file I can import in less than a minute that clears them out, and then I can just delete the folders.  The imported registry file keeps those unwanted Libraries/Folders from showing up in dialog boxes, as well.

The telemetry I haven’t eliminated outright is controlled by O&O ShutUp 10 with good effect.  I have no ads whatsoever, no suggestions, no phoning home going on in the background.  I do use OneDrive, but I sign in to that online, not on my PC.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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In business there are lots and lots of business applications that have no Linux alternative or don’t run on that platform.

In a home setting, I use all three (Apple, Windows, Mint — oooh one more Chromebook) and I’m still way more productive/comfortable and can get things done.  Fortunately, because Microsoft does cater to businesses that won’t put up with this stuff, they leave use the tools to control it.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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rc primak

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In addition to Mint, there are other Linux distros with greater respect for user privacy. Canonical, makers of Ubuntu, include a lot of their own telemetry and proprietary tweaks. There are distros with far fewer of these vendor-specific quirks.

That said, I do use Ubuntu-Unity with some modifications as my daily driver. Bear in mind, I do not use business-target applications. So I have more flexibility than business users would have.

One of the best things for me about Linux is the one-stop shopping for updates. That and the ability to selectively update without taking everything which is offered.  The key point here is user control of what’s added, taken away or changed, and the ability to go inside the code base and make modifications specific to the needs of my own system and software usage. Proprietary code bases do not allow this sort of re-engineering. So Linux allows me detailed feature controls.

I do also use Linux software from outside of the official repos, so there are actually several software sources on my computers. Not all of those sources are aggregated into a single update mechanism.

-- rc primak

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wavy, Steve

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The one thing I don’t like about Linux update controls is that I can’t find an EASY way (I’m not a coder) to have the browser auto update.  That’s one piece of software I WANT to automate and ensure it’s updating at all times.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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rc primak, wavy

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A web browser’s built-in update mechanism is often a day or two behind from when an update is actually first available. So it’s not the quickest method to ensure a web browser is updated, instead it’s more so of a fail-safe method that the web browser will eventually receive the update.

So whether Linux or Windows, if you want to ensure your web browser is always updated to the latest version ASAP there is always the option to download and install it yourself. There is no need to rely on the web browser’s update mechanism at all.

This is what I do with Firefox (ESR) with Linux Mint on my personal systems and with Windows 10 at work where the latest version is available for download from the Mozilla FTP site a day or two before it shows up in the web browser’s update mechanism. Also at work I use a similar method to update Google Chrome myself. So all my web browsers are often updated days before either their built-in update mechanism or our IT Department’s deployment tools can push out any updates.

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rc primak, Steve

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You can have Ubuntu-based Linux automatically install all updates, if you wish, including the browser updates.

In terms of auto updating, the browser is owned by root, but it only runs as a user application. This is a security feature. If a program is owned by root, it means that a user application cannot modify the program, and since the browser only runs as user, that means if rogue malware got control of the browser, it would also run as the user. It could not modify the browser itself, or any other program owned by root (which is all of them, by default).

If you wanted, though, you could install the browser as a user application. In that case, the browser would be able to modify itself, and should auto update as in Windows. Any malware would be able to do that too, though.

It would also be possible for a browser to be programmed to request superuser privileges when it was about to update, but then it would not be automatic. I am not aware of any that do it this way, though, as most Linux users are pretty keen on controlling the updates personally.

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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rc primak, wavy, Cybertooth, windbg

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bbearren wrote:

What I have ascertained so far is that Copilot is helpless without logging into the PC with a Microsoft account and using Edge to open Bing, which is the source of the AI.  In my systems, including my recently resurrected and upgraded Dell Latitude E5420 there is no Edge, no Bing anything.  As for the upcoming Office integration, I won’t be buying into that.

I use a local account to log into my computer so am I safe even if I continue using Edge? I like to keep it on my computer to check that websites I am involved with work right in that browser but I may do away with that luxury to avoid adverts on my desktop and other nasties if necessary.

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Correct.  You can also just disable it.  I’ll post a registry key this weekend.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Perq, Chris-t, rc primak

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https://www.askwoody.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/DisableWindowscopilot.reg

The registry key is there.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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bbearren wrote:

What I have ascertained so far is that Copilot is helpless without logging into the PC with a Microsoft account and using Edge to open Bing, which is the source of the AI

So, during update process Microsoft should check for Microsoft account and if there is none NOT install Copilot

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rc primak, Ascaris

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Alex5723 wrote:

So, during update process Microsoft should check for Microsoft account and if there is none NOT install Copilot

Perhaps you’re misinterpreting Microsoft’s goal, here.  Microsoft wants everyone to use a Microsoft account.  The easy syncing and sharing is one carrot, but not everyone wants the syncing and sharing thing.  Copilot is just another carrot to entice more users to use a Microsoft account.  Oooo, look at the pretty, shiny new AI!!!

If anything, Microsoft would make certain to install Copilot on machines that don’t use a Microsoft account.  In my estimation, the goal of Microsoft is to have every user signing into their PC with a Microsoft account.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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rc primak, Cybertooth

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Dear Susan Bradley..God Bless You..great job on all I read ! 🙂

Eventually, unless we all go to UNIX,..which often seems to be an increasing likelihood given the competing issues from Windows and others…Can anyone help to envision NIRVANA,,,..i.e.

showing the user not to be a gaunlet runner between MS Bing, Edge, Google search, Duck Duck etc etc…and at the first indication of the need to search with or with not AI, a simple list with dots to choose which one to search with EVERY TIME one searchs…perhaps complimented with a non advertising but AND OPTION WHETHER OR NOT TO USE….a possibly valuable and enlightening list of recent objective reviews, pros and cons as to which Search engine might do the best job with ONE CLICK UNINTERRUPTED LINKS…as the cost of time for all us Baby Boomers is our most valuable asset?….

God Bless you and your team for all your hard work, & stars in your crown for courage and stay safe!…

SINCERELY

JAMES WIGGINS..

Moderator Edit: Removed email address. For security reasons, please do not include personal information (email address for example) in your post.

 

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Alex5723 wrote:

bbearren wrote:

What I have ascertained so far is that Copilot is helpless without logging into the PC with a Microsoft account and using Edge to open Bing, which is the source of the AI

So, during update process Microsoft should check for Microsoft account and if there is none NOT install Copilot

I do have a Microsoft account but I choose not to login to my computer with it. If they only install it on computers with a Microsoft account I guess they would still install it on mine.

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rc primak, Alex5723

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If they only install it on computers with a Microsoft account I guess they would still install it on mine.

That’s a downsize of having Microsoft account

https://www.digitalcitizen.life/what-is-microsoft-account/

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/pros-cons-using-microsoft-account-windows/

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rc primak

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Alex5723 wrote:

That’s a downsize of having Microsoft account

There is an upside to not having a Microsoft account to log into one’s PC.

The “App and service activity” is only Windows update Push and OneDrive syncing start/stop times.

Between my tinkerin’ and O&O ShutUp 10, the only telemetry is open/close times for Microsoft 365 apps and OneDrive syncing.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

2 users thanked author for this post.

rc primak, Perq

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I have an HP ProBook 450 G6 with Windows 10 version 22H2. The September 2023 updates were installed a few days ago and updates are paused until November 6. Months ago the Group Policy Editor was set to get updates for 22H2 and to date that setting has kept the computer from updating to Windows 11. I use the Edge browser with DuckDuckGo as my search engine. I do not have a Microsoft account or Microsoft 365.

Susan Bradley writes:

“Those of you intending to ride Windows 10 into the sunset will be delighted to learn that Copilot is for Windows 11 only. You won’t be subject to problems that come up for Windows 11 users.”

I was pleased to read this because I plan to leave my computer on Windows 10 until Windows 10 reaches end of life. However, I recently read on techradar that, “those who use Edge on Windows 10 will get Copilot in Microsoft’s browser.

https://www.techradar.com/computing/windows/windows-10-users-will-get-to-use-copilot-ai-after-all-but-with-a-big-drawback

Will Microsoft be pushing Copilot into Edge browsers running on Windows 10 computers without user consent?

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Perq

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It’s already in Edge now.  It’s that annoying chat thing.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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rc primak, 280park

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Susan Bradley wrote:

It’s already in Edge now.  It’s that annoying chat thing.

My computer has the latest stable channel release for Edge. I looked through a bunch of Edge settings and other items in the Edge drop down menu (the three dots in the upper right-hand corner) and I did not see any obvious reference to ChatGPT. Is ChatGPT embedded somewhere in Edge but invisible to users?

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https://www.engadget.com/microsoft-edge-ai-copilot-184033427.html

There’s a bing icon in the corner unless you’ve disabled it/or it hasn’t dribbled to you yet.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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rc primak, Perq

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Susan Bradley wrote:

https://www.engadget.com/microsoft-edge-ai-copilot-184033427.html

There’s a bing icon in the corner unless you’ve disabled it/or it hasn’t dribbled to you yet.

Until today the Edge sidebar on my computer had always been hidden and I had never explored its settings. After sliding the “Show Bing Chat” button in the sidebar menu to the “on” position, the Bing Chat icon was displayed in the upper right-hand corner, just like in the picture in the engadget article that you linked to. Although I don’t plan to use Bing Chat and have rehidden its icon I am glad to know where it is.

Thank you very much for the information.

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PC is paused till October 21 and I hope that is enough time for things to calm down for this next update.

Will Microsoft update the PC if the internet connection is turned off? I would like to pause it longer.

Windows 11 Pro
Version 23H2
OS build 22631.4890

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Read through this and the comments 1n the Forums. Instructions to extend Pause beyond the current limit.

https://www.askwoody.com/2020/is-there-a-way-to-cheat-pause-update/

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rc primak

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Thanks PK it worked! Updates are paused till November 11, 2023.

Windows 11 Pro
Version 23H2
OS build 22631.4890

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As for me, I’ve got win 11 home, only thing I really use this thing for is browsing, messengers, and the occasional game. I do still defer updates as per Susan’s advice, cause all it takes is one bad patch and back to square one, sometimes painfully. InControl sounds useful, but I’m wary of any program that’s ‘free’. Last time I trusted a ‘free’ program, I ended up with a browser hijacker that turned out to have been ‘bundled’ into the free program’s files. Thankfully I’m more careful now, thankfully the hijacker was on my previous computer which is no longer used, couldn’t handle win 10 let alone win 11.

 

Here’s hoping copilot and by extension 23h2 behave this time.

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Frahaleah wrote:

As for me, I’ve got win 11 home, only thing I really use this thing for is browsing, messengers, and the occasional game. I do still defer updates as per Susan’s advice, cause all it takes is one bad patch and back to square one, sometimes painfully. InControl sounds useful, but I’m wary of any program that’s ‘free’. Last time I trusted a ‘free’ program, I ended up with a browser hijacker that turned out to have been ‘bundled’ into the free program’s files. Thankfully I’m more careful now, thankfully the hijacker was on my previous computer which is no longer used, couldn’t handle win 10 let alone win 11.

 

Here’s hoping copilot and by extension 23h2 behave this time.

InControl was written by Steve Gibson, a well known and trusted developer in the sector. I’d have no issue using it myself.

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rc primak, Steve, WSDKS01, Cybertooth

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all it takes is one bad patch and back to square one, sometimes painfully

Making regular whole C drive image backups eliminates this possibility.

Desktop Asus TUF X299 Mark 1, CPU: Intel Core i7-7820X Skylake-X 8-Core 3.6 GHz, RAM: 32GB, GPU: Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti 4GB. Display: Four 27" 1080p screens 2 over 2 quad.

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rc primak, Alex5723

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For those of us who deferred the September updates for 5 weeks (i.e., until the October 10th Patch Tuesday, since had we planned to accept the September updates on October 9th), now that we are in DEFCON 1, would you recommend we not accept the September updates at all, and just let Windows force the October updates onto us without any chance to defer them (since our 5 week deferral period will be all used up by Tuesday.)

Or might it be better for us to take our chances with the September updates, knowing we can, at least, take a chance on the October updates if the September ones turn out to be too much of a mess for us?

I realize it is impossible to predict the future perfectly, I am just looking for thoughts on the potentially least bad alternative.

Thanks!

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You should go ahead and install the 2023-09 Sept updates before the Oct updates are released at 10:00am PDT US on the 10th.
It will be late Oct before the 2023-10 updates are approved and you will be two months without an update.

Create a full disk image backup before you update so you have something to go back to.
The 2023-09 Patch Tuesday updates have been approved for installation.
Be sure you DO NOT install the Preview update.

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rc primak

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