More Win10 coerced update reports

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I’m not sure if The Reg got all of the details right, but if their report is true, Win7 customers are getting marched to Win10 with no reprieve. Mary
[See the full post at: More Win10 coerced update reports]

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How utterly old-fashioned Perlow sounds. A true believer in Progress, hang the consequences.

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Holy Sheet – they’ve completey REMOVED the X from the dialogue/upgrade box?!?!?

How low will these people go?

GET Josh Mayfield’s GWX Control Panel and put it on Monitor Mode – NOW. They’re coming for all of us.

Good Grief.

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The Samsung issue (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/31/windows_10_samsung_fail/) is a good example of why the MS Windows 10 update strategy was not well thought out. Have a similar problem with my Dell Alienware M17xr4 laptop. Dell will not support Windows 10 on it and there are driver issues when you try to install Windows 10 on it.

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Woody-
Would it be possible to get out of the Windows 10 nagware dialog box by using Task Manager?

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Ouch – and that’s an expensive, modern computer!

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That’s what The Reg is reporting that a user told them.

The dialog box they show is something that’s been around for quite a long time – but I’m skeptical that the sequence goes in the way described.

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Apparently that is the dialog after you use the windows update control panel to install windows 10, then accept the EULA.

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My Dell XPS 8500 (i7-3770 CPU; 8GB RAM) was bought in Jan. 2013 (less than 3 years before the Win10 roll-out), and Dell isn’t updating the drivers, and recommends that I not upgrade to Win10.

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Sensible option if you are ready to install a new OS on your OEM machine:
You are good if the OEM has official drivers for all your hardware for that OS (double check that they don’t have missing drivers — far too common), and your third party hardware (printers, aftermarket video cards, etc..) also has working drivers. Also compatible software check, review what you have installed with your vendor for any software you care about.

The microsoft way:
We have non-OEM (retail) drivers which seem to match your OEM hardware ID (it may not work, that is your problem). None of the software you have installed is on our incompatibly blacklist (software we don’t know about? who knows, that’s your problem)
You are good to go with the install! Unless it fails, then someone (not microsoft) will remind you that you should have made a backup before you automatically consented to install windows 10.

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Did anyone notice the disclaimer at the end of Jason Perlow’s article? He is a Microsoft employee. ZDNet has probably just been duped into giving away free advertising to MS.

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FWIW
According to a German MVP blog (http://www.drwindows.de/content/10257-fenster-schliessen-bedeutet-zustimmung-naechste-maerchen-windows.html), the article in The Reg does not get all the details right.
MS’s GWX methods are nevertheless criminal, IMO.

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What does the Esc key do in this instance?

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I believe that’s correct – The Reg didn’t verify the accusations. Surprisingly, Mary Jo and Neowin also jumped in with both feet, and have both since retracted.

If I have time in the morning I’ll try to straighten the record out as best i can – I’m waiting on some more tests.

Bottom line, though, as you say, the GWX methods are way over the top. Criminal is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

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I skipped right over that. Holy moses….

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Jan 2013 to July 2015 = 2.5 years. Wow.

What drivers are they refusing to update? This is really bizarre!

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No need to. Just run GWX Control Panel. It’ll wipe out everything.

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Changing the x to mean ok – if you suffer damage from that, I’d put money on a case against microfail being successful, no matter what they buried in the fine print.

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I think this is a case of Dell not assuming responsibility for maintaining an operating system which they did not sell and trying to sell new computers for new operating systems.
This does not mean that the user is not able in general to upgrade and use the system with Windows 10.
I am in the same situation with a Dell XPS 15 from 2011 which now has 500 GB SSD and 16 GB RAM and another HP from 2010. Both laptops with early geenerations of i7 CPUs run happily Windows 10 regardless of what the manufacturers say for compliance reasons and not to be made liable in case something does not work as expected.
Think about the Intel HD Graphics 3000 which does not have a certain driver for niche functionality in Windows 10 used only by gamers who would need a new computer regardless. But for regular functionality, the available drivers are just fine.

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No argument from me there, and I don’t know which specific drivers aren’t being updated.

The Dell message at their website for proud owners of my Jan. 2013 desktop model is “Product not tested for Windows 10 upgrade. Dell is not testing or developing Windows 10 drivers for this product. If you choose to upgrade, some features, applications, and connected devices may not work as expected.”

A separate message says, “If your device is not listed in the tables below, Dell is not testing the device, drivers have not been updated for that model, and Dell does not recommended an upgrade to Windows 10.”

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This is a small point — just a line from Mary Jo Foley’s article (which is linked to in Woody’s blogpost above) — but it addresses something I’ve asked a rhetorical question about a few times here on AskWoody, and that is about the reaction of MS employees to the recent, surprising behavior of the company regarding their GWX push:
She writes, “I’ve heard from some of my contacts that a number of Microsoft’s own employees are angry about the direction Microsoft is taking on the auto-update front with Windows 10 and are complaining to Windows and other senior managers about the company’s tactics.”

Reading that does make me feel better, because I expected that some of them were decent, un-shallow, fair, pledge-honoring, non-Stepford-robot people, and I just wondered how it came about that 50 or 500 or 5,000 or however-many intelligent people could have been so overwhelmingly silenced/cowed into going along, without complaint or pushback, with being jerky and manipulative at the corporate level.

—
And the Perlow piece — wow.
I guess that’s one way to…
(well, I won’t say what I’m thinking — it’s not constructive. 🙂 )

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You can bet the devs are pushing back at the GWX insanity. the problem is that the folks upstairs are intransigent. They don’t see that the bad publicity from GWX is killing the world’s perception of Microsoft. While we’re seeing a spike in the number of Windows 10 active users, I bet over the next year or so we’ll see a slump in Microsoft’s brand appeal.

The Perlow piece mystified me — “Microsoft knows what you need, and you shouldn’t force them to spend money fixing what they sold you” — until I saw the note here that Perlow is a Microsoft employee. Many of the ZDNet folks have financial ties to Microsoft – my old friend Ed Bott writes books for Microsoft Press, and I’m sure MS pays for many junkets — but that’s just totally out in left field. On the other hand, ZDNet is owned by CBS, so I guess it shouldn’t surprise me too much.

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I see a good discussion here: http://www.tomsguide.com/answers/id-2963502/alienware-17r3-dell-nightmare-hell-thinking-buying-2016.html

So both Samsung and Dell are saying they won’t support recent machines (sold in, say, the past three years) on Windows 10. I feel an article coming on.

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Has anyone noticed that the Perzow article was removed from the “front Page” in the first 24 hours or so. They had received over 400 letters mostly negative. MS must have commanded that it be removed.

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I’ve seen “Product not tested for Windows 10 upgrade” frequently on the website when working on Dell machines, some older, some newer. Fortunately, I’m looking for driver updates for (mostly) Win 7.

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Yes. Was able to find driver files on Dell that would install for the 2 drivers that Windows 10 di not have (On Screen Display and ST Microelectornics Accelorometer). Seems to work fine, but I suspect in the future a Windows 10 update will eventually break it and I will have to revert to either Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 of get a new machine (meaning build my own).

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I’m not sure that a future patch will replace the drivers you’ve installed. Win10 cumulative updates are getting better about that.

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Even if nobody files a class action suit (hard to imagine a law firm willing to take on Microsoft, frankly), the damage to Microsoft’s reputation may be irreparable.

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Hi Woody,

Possible article about “The hidden costs of upgrading to Windows 10 “Free Upgrade”?

I have many products that would not work on Windows 10 and some that would negate my previous “Lifetime Licenses” in order to go to subscription licensing models that many software companies are now adopting.

I only had 1 software program out of over a hundred that I could not use when I upgraded to Window 7 Professional. It just works that well for me.

1. Do you know of anyone that’s tackled this issue and included many popular software products that are utilized (and still getting updates) that were lifetime licenses in the past but now purchased via subscription now?

2. Notes software that would need to be purchased/upgraded/subscription licensing that an upgrade to Win 10 would require.

I’ve spent thousands of dollars building my system from scratch including purchasing licenses for all my software products.

Due to Microsoft’s heavy handed tactics in promoting it’s “Free Upgrade”, telemetry, auto-updating, advertising, dubious future upgrade strategies (subscription?) and the very real loss of some programs I use and having to re-licensing of some, I plan on staying on Windows 7 at least to 2020 and probably longer.

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Just an update. I just spent over $129.00 to install a fresh Window 7 Professional OEM version over Dell’s OEM (Windows Home Premium). It’s 5am and I’ve been re-installing since about 8pm.

[x] If you buy an update make sure! You get
a DVD that has a blue folder case with a
silver scratch off, like a lotto ticket.
That’s where your activation number is.

Read that again, the activation key is on
the scratch off on the windows tag.

Just a tip, provided you back up your original
drivers. It’d be wise to install Firefox
to USB because IE 11 is shoving a bunch of
updates. But I’m not so sure I want to keep
Windows update on? Ever?

My advice. It is my opinion that Windows updates is intentionally breaking the Windows 7 OEM versions especially DELLS. Even when
you do an update mysteriously Windows doesn’t do a clean install? So beware. I took a chance
a new computer, most likely will avoid Dell.
Unless they take action. I can no longer
trust their computers. We’ll see if Dell
becomes the new Gateway.

I would advise those of you with Dells to call
them and insist on Windows Professional
or an upgrade of the Operating system. Or
issue rollback systems DVD to the ignorant.

Woody, you need to be very careful when advising people to keep window update set to update even with GWX. The updates will eventually kill your machine.

And best of luck to you all!

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“Mary Jo Foley had a scathing riposte”.

So has Susan Bradley, Paul Thurrott, and yourself. And while I agree with all of these reactions, it’s quite clear that despite some of the more respected people in IT saying this, Microsoft’s answer is to stick their fingers in their ears and go “LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-I-can’t-hear-you!!!”

Unless I see a Fortune 500 almost-all-Microsoft company publicly tell Microsoft to suck it, they’re going to Linux in the next xx time period, and invalidating their contracts…Or unless I see a huge smackdown from the European Union…Or unless I see a large class-action lawsuit in the US, it’s pretty clear Microsoft doesn’t give a tin turd what any of us in the IT/Press corps/etc. world thinks. They’re going to do it anyway. And they’ll always find one Ziff-Davis shill to prop up their opinion anyway, so I expect that kind of tone-deaf.

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+1

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Ah, but I recommend that folks turn OFF automatic update. Been recommending it, in print, for more than a decade. Microsoft shooting itself in the foot only increases my resolve.

Step back, take a deep breath, and ask yourself seriously if you really NEED Windows. Some people do. Many do not.

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Received 4 calls yesterday with people in a panic because windows was updating “without their consent”. After explaining their options to them, all 4 wanted no part in even trying Windows 10. 3 declined the EULA and were rolled back. All of them ended up having up to 70 corrupted tasks which I cleaned up after removing the Win10 files and updates. Everything else appears OK so far.

One lady pulled the power plug during the upgrade. Didn’t know what to expect with that one, but she worked out the best. No corrupted tasks and the cleanup of her machine was quick and easy.

2 of them are definitely switching to Apple. They already have iphones and ipads so they are going to purchase new Macs within the next couple years. The other two advised they are looking at Apple and Linux but don’t necessarily know which direction they will head.

All 4 are small business owners with 1 to 15 machines in their fleet and aren’t exactly feeling the love for MS any longer.

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OK, I’ll weigh in on the Perzow propaganda piece. Microsoft themselves set the end of life dates for Win7 and Win8.1 to 2020 and 2023 respectively. I really don’t give a rip how easy it would make things for Microsoft to support only one OS, *they* are the ones who set the end of support dates, not the user community. So live up to the dates you set and leave us the hell alone, Microsoft! We’ll upgrade when we’re good and ready, if we do it at all.

And Perzow? What a shill.

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+1 +1

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Jason is currently a Partner Technology Strategist with Microsoft Corp

“My Full-Time Employer is Microsoft. I write as a freelancer for ZDNet. The postings and opinions on this blog are my own and don’t necessarily represent Microsoft’s positions …”

ROFLMAO

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A lot of the GWX tactics (including techniques used in polymorphic viruses) seem designed to mitigate the risk that a large law firm just might try to get a class action certified against MS. My drift is that we have consistently seen users reporting different experiences with dialog boxes and tricky protocols to start the W10 upgrade. This makes it extremely complicated to nail down a specific offense or compile a coherent evidentiary file. Everyone knows MS is operating beyond the edge with coerced upgrades but their legal counsel probably thinks they can keep the legal risk contained in the cage of required individual arbitration. Nadella has sold Wall Street on hitting the numbers with W10 and Cloud growth but the securities analysts seem to be catching on as to how MS is hitting the represented numbers.

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There’s absolutely no question that different people see different dialog boxes and sequences. I’ve hit several just in the past couple of days.

Polymorphic? Guess it depends on your definition. A/B testing maybe. But it’s definitely slippery.

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I wonder if we’ll see any more posts from Jason on CBS/ZDNet’s blog.

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I just became curious what a “free” upgrade to Windows 10 would cost me.

It seems that the only way to run a Windows 10 upgrade advisor is to install “Get Windows 10” … Hahahahaha!!!

So I installed the Windows 8.1 Upgrade Assistant and ran it to see what would possibly break if I upgraded from Windows 7.

Ta-da!

Looks like I will need at least $600 of application upgrades to be fully compatible with 8.1, not to mention 10.

No.

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Woody, you’re right about Jason Perlow’s article being “drivel”:

“as much as companies like Microsoft can spend hundreds of millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours regression testing upgrades of major releases like Windows 10 on legacy hardware, not every scenario for testing an in-place upgrade is going to be validated.”

Spending the money and man hours making sure that everything possible would work with new versions of Windows, Office, etc., was what gave Microsoft their absolute dominance on the desktop.

Because they have now abandoned this approach, they will lose their dominance. It’s only a matter of time.

“If your computer is four years old or more, it’s probably time to say goodbye.”

NOT! My eight year old computer with Windows 7 is working just fine for my 9-year old. It worked fine for me until a month ago, when I purchased a new Windows 7 computer.

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With no X based on Microsoft’s long standing policy, nothing (maybe plays default beep?).

By microsoft’s standards today… Deletes your documents? Uploads them to one drive? Re-enables telemetry? Starts the install?

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This is a case where microsoft says “we might find drivers for your hardware and they might work (we’re not sure)! You are ready for windows 10!”

You might remember later that they forgot to tell you about backups after you loose your data if the ‘upgrade’ fails. Also you may loose screen function if the drivers don’t work, good luck clicking on the right thing to revert back…

I would normally say press F8 at the right moment(early) in boot and boot to safe mode or recovery (PE) mode before the video driver loads, but microsoft has disabled that one for windows 8.x and 10 by default. (insanity)

Re-enable:
bcdedit /set {default} bootmenupolicy legacy

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cbs also owns cnet/download.com, the sellouts who starting years back (already being a popular download site) started running ads with giant “DOWNLOAD NOW” banner ads for junkware right next to the missing link for your actual download. Also they are wrapping their downloads with junkware installers (including open source projects and virus protections). Still doing it to this day.

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I had trouble following that one…

I did a clean install on this Dell with a generic Windows 7_SP1(x64) DVD (burned from MSDN ISO) as soon as I got it. Then installed all the drivers from the Dell website (ignoring the 5 extra drivers they offered — dell was confused) and have been running that way ever since, no real issues (well… hard drive pre-failure detected early and restored from backup onto an upgraded drive).

I’ve installed updates as needed and had zero on my blacklist until February 2015. (I did hold off on a few with known issues). Since May 2015 its been less good, and it is all microsoft’s fault.

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By “OFF automatic update” you mean still download and prompt and install at users well advised discretion. NOT don’t install any updates, right?

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Microsoft rapid fires OSes at us because XP was too long resulting in bad Vista, 7 was good because:

microsoft: “We rushed a brand new OS in only 3 years!”
reality: “You fixed vista in SP1, and then you spent 3 whole years making Vista 2.0 on that progress, and lost the bad rep name vista”

microsoft: “Windows 8 will be great because we waited 3 years, we remember last time, we don’t have to try at all, we are golden”
reality: “8 was bad because you changed everything and told people. ‘no you do not hate it you love it! remember?'”

microsoft: “NEW OS, NOT WINDOWS 8! marketing data! (maniacal laughter) We brought back / mangled the start menu! (maniacal laughter) BING! (tracking sounds)”
reality: “Ugh… +(frustrated grinding sound almost like teeth)”

microsoft: “We have too many different operating systems to support! how did this happen??!”
reality: “duh!”

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That’s correct. Leave Auto Updates set to Notify but don’t download, and follow along here with the MS-DEFCON level before installing anything.

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I would say if you aren’t on a data limited connection and you have either:
NoAUShutdownOption
NoAUAsDefaultShutdownOption
enabled that there is no harm it allowing it to pre-download the update.

“install update automatically” –bleh!

“check for updates but let me choose when/whether to download and install them” –fine

“check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them windows 10” –fine

“never check for updates” –bad, won’t cache the list of available updates

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Right on the money. “Confusion to the enemy” is part of their strategy. The enemy being us.

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Hi Woody:
Thanks for all the great tips you post that help many of us.I placed Never 10 on my computer yesterday.This is a no brainer to install for anyone, a few clicks and you’re done. It said windows 10 was on my computer ready to install. Even though I’ve tried to keep many of the windows 10 updates off my computer. Microsoft has their hidden material installed on my computer. Would I have any problems installing GWX Control Panel in addition to Never 10 at the same time ? Thanks again nice to know you are here for us.
Herb

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@NotReallyBob(fromanothercomputer) says:

This is a case where Microsoft says “we might find drivers for your hardware and they might work (we’re not sure)! You are ready for Windows 10!”

Yeah, so true 🙂
However it works in most situations by downloading older drivers for Windows 7/8.1 directly from the manufacturer.

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The ST Microelectronics Accelerometer worked for me in compatibility mode and even so, not quite smoothly.
Now it is uninstalled after upgrading to SSD. Better to avoid that driver if possible as there is no update compatible with Windows 10 as far as I know.

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I wonder what is so important now or in the future to the “powers that be” in the organization that they think “it” is so valuable to them that they are justified in following this eventually reputation-destroying, market-share-diminishing, self-destructing path.

They are smart and experienced people, they have access to many top external business advisors, it’s not an impoverished military dictatorship being run by a powerful, crazed madman….

Though there does seem to be a touch of the Kool-Aid-drinking, megalomaniac, pride-goeth-before-a-fall, absolute-power-corrupts-absolutely in the Pizlow piece.
Maybe it’s that simple? – that the organization is that self-deluded and removed from reality.
It doesn’t seem likely, but history is full of human groups that went way off course.

We customers had evolved a relationship with them that was founded on the understanding that they would be, of course, profit-seeking, competitive, and rational, but also would be honorable, reliable, fair, and responsible to those who had paid the prices they had set for their products and services. They are reneging on some of their parts of our previously-struck bargains.

In some situations they would/will be expensive, time-consuming, and upsetting to replace — but they are not, fortunately, entirely irreplaceable. (I must say that in the past I didn’t quite grasp why the EU was so exercised about MS’ monopolistic tendencies and potentials, but now I’m a bit clearer on that!)

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@Byron

“ZDNet has probably just been duped into giving away free advertising to MS.”

Maybe not so free…

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No problem at all. They both tackle the same problem, in similar ways. I continue to prefer GWX Control Panel, but Never10 works fine, too.

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I finally got GWX Control Panel. I thought that I had completely snuffed out all the Win10 seeds last week, and then today I saw a message telling me my upgrade was coming in several days. I gave up on dealing with it myself. I’m not as savvy as most of the other commenters on here (as you can tell I still had automatic updates on, stupid stupid).

Maybe it’s time for me to try Linux.

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Don’t give up! Run GWX Control Panel again. It’ll get rid of whatever ails you.

If you decide to go with Win10, that’s great, but do it on your own terms, your own schedule.

Or keep using whatever you’re using and, when it’s headed to the bit farm, think hard about whether you need Windows. Most folks, most of the time, don’t.

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I think Woody is correct that most folks, most of the time, don’t need Windows.

If you think back to a couple of decades ago, everybody ran out to buy a new PC and sign up for AOL, etc., to get on this new-fangled interwebs thingy.

Entire growth industries sprang up around this new age of connectivity. The catch for most folks was that you had to buy a PC (or Mac) to connect (or surf from work, with your employer watching you waste time).

But now look at the slump in PC sales in recent years! It appears that many folks are discovering that they can get social, or do most of the things they need, with just a smartphone. These folks are not replacing their PC’s (or Macs).

Many other folks are opting for tablets (Android or iOS), or Chromebooks (ChromeOS). You can do most of what you need these days with just a web browser. The cloud offers many options, for example Google Mail, Google Docs, and Google Drive (among others).

The Chromebook is great for those who prefer the traditional mouse/keyboard thing vs. touchscreen tablets.

I’m afraid that only those in business environments or those individuals that have invested heavily in Windows application licenses are stuck with doing battle in this arms race for control of our machines.

The sales numbers indicate that the PC is already dead as a growth industry.

Is Microsoft running scared? Can that explain their recent obnoxious behavior? Looking at there revenue numbers from a couple of years ago shows that Windows is only a small fraction of their big pie. That leaves me puzzled …

I am also running Linux Mint on a spare PC. It is user friendly, easier to install than Windows, rock solid, and can do a lot more than a tablet or Chromebook. The Linux server versions are eating the server world. But unfortunately, Linux cannot yet replace Windows as far as Windows only desktop applications are concerned. I’m sure someone will mention Wine. I’ve already tried that and it works occasionally. Most of the Win stuff I need it to work for is broken. I can recommend Linux only if you need to do more than a Chromebook offers, such as install and run standalone software. There are a few decent alternatives for some Windows apps available for free.

I am encouraged by some recent trends that I see in cross-platform app development, where native apps are compiled for Win/Mac/Linux. The big guys are sticking to their established markets in most cases, except where it makes sense for them to contribute to open-source. But for the majority of commercial Win/Mac software, we shall see …

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Has anybody seen this?
StatCounter: Windows 10 surpasses Windows 7 market share in North America (Australia too)

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1299110-statcounter-windows-10-surpasses-windows-7-market-share-in-north-america/

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It was a one-day blip, but at some point it’ll be generally true.

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I had Windows 7 and it worked ok, we never had an issue that I could not fix. Microsoft installed Windows 10 on my PC without my permission. I declined the License and Microsoft uninstalled Windows 10. Now my PC is a brick. I had to slave the drive and copy off all of my files (hours that I wasted because of MS). PC no longer come with software so a reinstall is out of the question. I decided I am done with Microsoft all together. I wiped all 4 PC’s in the house and installed Unbuntu. I was up and running in under 40 minutes including all patches and printing setup (that was total four all 4 PC’s, try that with Windows. I will never buy another Windows PC unless I can put a Linux os on it. Now my household has Linux and MAC only, figure that was the only solution to their forced crap.

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http://imgur.com/gallery/Nh902aV

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