More on the system backup subject

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I think I have read most all the posts in the Lounge on backing up in Win7, including Fred Langa’s article in this week’s newsletter. In the discussions of installing Win 7SP1, and other updates, I have seen it said that someone does a System Image, does the install, and if it goes wrong, restores the system image. Well and good. Understand all that.

My question is concerning how long a system image backup should take. I have a Seagate Free Agent external HD, 750 GB, My computer is a Lenovo H320, with 1 T HD, and the system image takes over an hour. :o: It ends up at 49 Gb after compression.

If this is normal, then okay, if not what can I do.

BJ

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BJ,

The time it takes to create an image depends on several factors:
1. How much of the 1 Tb drive is actually in use.
2. What level of Compression is used.
3. How much memory you have.
4. How much processor power you have {Cores & MHz}
5. The speed of the connection to the Free Agent drive {USB 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, Firewire, External SATA, or if NAS 100Mb or 1 GB}.
6. What software you are using, e.g. Acronis True Image is much faster than the Builtin Windows Imaging.

I’m sure someone will add something to this list that I forgot. The end result is that it is entirely dependent on your individual circumstances. As an example when I was using Acronis TI 11 it took me a couple of hours to backup and verify an image. upgrading to TI 2010 I can now do it in less than an hour on the same machine. Thus, I now do it more often…this is a good thing!

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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Thanks R. Geek

Should have included these other factors….. less than 100Gb of the 1T HD is in use.
Processor is i5, reading from sys info “Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU 650 @ 3.20GHz, 3201 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)”
6 Gb memory
Don’t know the compression…. whatever Win7 does.
Connection to the Seagate is USB 2.0.

And the last question tells the tale: I am using the builtin Win7 program. Sounds like you, and some of the others do not agree with Fred Langa, “it’s almost nutty not to do it”

BJ

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Thanks R. Geek

Should have included these other factors….. less than 100Gb of the 1T HD is in use.
Processor is i5, reading from sys info “Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU 650 @ 3.20GHz, 3201 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)”
6 Gb memory
Don’t know the compression…. whatever Win7 does.
Connection to the Seagate is USB 2.0.

And the last question tells the tale: I am using the builtin Win7 program. Sounds like you, and some of the others do not agree with Fred Langa, “it’s almost nutty not to do it”

BJ

BJ,

With the processing power you have available I’d say the USB 2.0 is the bottle neck. That said your backup time still seems a might long for the amount of data you are actually backing up. I image about 60Gb and the whole thing including verification {which Windows Imaging does not do to the best of my knowledge} over a USB 2.0 connection takes well less than an hour with Acronis TI 2010.:cheers:

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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Sooooo, I should have bought a drive with firewire connection! Absent that, I am researching prices on Acronis and find that a 3 pack is quite reasonable right now (til May 31)

Thanks for the beer.

BJ

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My Images with Acronis (compressed size approx. 25 GB) takes approx. 25 minutes for Image and validation. To rstore from this Image takes less than 10 minutes.

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I have a Seagate Free Agent Go external HD, 500 GB, with stand. The cable (without stand) is firewire to USB, and if I use the stand I have a pair of USB cables, both of which I connect to the computer. (This arrangement also provides a longer lead to the computer from the stand.)

This is a reminder that your external drive does not have an independent power supply – it gets its juice from the computer via the USB cable, which also has to carry the data back and forth between the computer and the drive. You have all the mechanical work of running the drive with just the USB cable to make it spin and to light the pretty lights, and your computer, possibly running on battery, is providing the power for that. There is a maximum amount of power a USB can provide, or at least a maximum design limit for peripherals that run on it.

It’s a terrific drive, in my book, by the way, but with all the variables to consider you may not have thought of that. It’s also possible that your model is much newer than mine, but if you have a pair of USB connectors, use them.

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I have a Seagate Free Agent Go external HD, 500 GB, with stand. The cable (without stand) is firewire to USB, and if I use the stand I have a pair of USB cables, both of which I connect to the computer.
—snip—-
It’s a terrific drive, in my book, by the way, but with all the variables to consider you may not have thought of that. It’s also possible that your model is much newer than mine, but if you have a pair of USB connectors, use them.

This pair of connectors does have me baffled…… must be something I am not seeing. Can you enlighten me?

BJ

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This pair of connectors does have me baffled…… must be something I am not seeing. Can you enlighten me?

BJ

Here, from Wikipedia, is a description: “Some devices like high-speed external disk drives may require more than 500 mA of current and therefore cannot be powered from one USB 2.0 port. Such devices usually come with Y-shaped cable that has two USB connectors to be inserted into a computer. With such a cable a device can draw power from two USB ports simultaneously.”

The stand for my Seagate provides a connection-pair, and it cost sixteen bucks. If you google “USB Y” you will find photos or illustrations. I was wrong to mention Firewire; I think the connection is micro USB.

That is a specialized drive. It is a pocket portable and it requires no external power supply. It came with bundled software, and it was and is the cream of the crop. The software is updated and downloadable, and USB 2 is still the only game in town at the computer end. It is not a drive I would use for daily system backups, and if I did I would recognize the trade-offs.

Patience is a virtue.

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The best way to ensure that image restoration and creation is done in a timely maner is to separate out as much of your user data as possible from the operating system.
And the best way to accomplish that would be to keep a well organized file system with key folders located off the primary operating system partition. Many folders in
windows 7 can be moved to other locations appart from the operating system. Partitions are good, but extra internal drives are better.

Having many MB’s worth of photos, music, and documents scattered about the operating system and difficult to locate is inefficient and wastefull. Microsoft’s solution was to create libraries, but this unfortunately, does little to separate data from the operating system and thus reduce the size if image creation.

The concept of data backup goes far beyond just drive images and hard copy backups to external drives. A well organized file system negates the need for complicated search engines and resource hungry indexing, even system restore imo. With a well organized file system you will come to know exactly where your documents & files are located and be in a position to easily back them up independant of imaging.

As far as I am concerned, operating system images of the primary drive are only a means of quickly restoring the os in the event of an os failure.
Setting up you computer in such a way that renders the operating system as unimportant and expendable also goes a long way in dealing with security threats like viruses and malware.
In my not so humble opinion, too many people with absolutely no or limited computer skills are fumbling around trying to find solutions to rid themselves of some irrelevant infection when it is completely unnecessary.

20 to 30 minutes of computer downtime for an image restoration is all that should ever be needed in 99% of all situations.

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As far as I am concerned, operating system images of the primary drive are only a means of quickly restoring the os in the event of an os failure.

That is my primary interest in doing the system image type of backup.

In my not so humble opinion, too many people with absolutely no or limited computer skills are fumbling around trying to find solutions to rid themselves of some irrelevant infection when it is completely unnecessary.

OUCH! :rolleyes:

Thanks to all of you for some good comments which I am going to address, individually.

BJ

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The best way to ensure that image restoration and creation is done in a timely maner is to separate out as much of your user data as possible from the operating system.

Wrong. The best way to back up is to decide what is important and your statement doesnt even begin to address that. What is important for “Mr. Joe Averageuser” may well be only his pictures if he is a Gmailer (or whatever free online email account) and his music. In that case back those up but not just to one spot. In real estate they say “location, location, location” and in I.T. it ttranslates as “backup, backup backup” because no matter how nicely you treat something electronic, sometimes it may make up its own mind and commit “Electronicide” on you just after your C drive bit the dust and now you have only 2 backups left. One may have been overwritten by your S.O. for all you know. Keep 3. It is more costly but then how much do your beloved memories MEAN to you?

And the best way to accomplish that would be to keep a well organized file system with key folders located off the primary operating system partition. Many folders in
windows 7 can be moved to other locations appart from the operating system. Partitions are good, but extra internal drives are better.

Not necessarily wrong but dicey diced out info. I see a lot of people with desktop machines and having either 2 internal drives or even one internal and one USB connected and they decide that their 500gig has only 200gig left free and is therefore almost full (dont argue with the logic. When they are customers, smile and look concerned!) so they buy an external USB or have their internal extra HD and they start installing new programs to that drive rather than moving their loved pictures to the exttra drive or their music to it. So they now have a C drive, a D for CD/DVD and an E for their internal drive and then they decide to make E their virtual memory store and E goes belly up and along with that, a lot of their installation of needed programs and maybe even their entire installtion. Oh sure, the loved data may be there but if they arent I.T. minded, it may as well not be. So, music and pics on a drive getting too full for you and you have an extra drive? Good, shove it there but remember about backing up, too. No good moving it off C drive because viruses may erase it (inserted space so everyone cowers in fear right here) yet not having backups. If it exists in one space only it may as well exist on the point of Occam’s Razor!

Having many MB’s worth of photos, music, and documents scattered about the operating system and difficult to locate is inefficient and wastefull. Microsoft’s solution was to create libraries, but this unfortunately, does little to separate data from the operating system and thus reduce the size if image creation.

Again that depends on the user’s needs. A graphic artist may well find it useful to keep online backups on their own domain but keep the working data on C drive only. The NYSE may think entirely different and Joe the Mechanic may be somewhere in the middle of that. You have to ask the user about their use of the machine before you just decide that.

The concept of data backup goes far beyond just drive images and hard copy backups to external drives. A well organized file system negates the need for complicated search engines and resource hungry indexing, even system restore imo. With a well organized file system you will come to know exactly where your documents & files are located and be in a position to easily back them up independant of imaging.

Apple and oranges. Organissed or not, a file system which suddenly dies or just a physical error that is beyond the abilities of anyone outside of a hard drive lab to retrieve is entirely useless. You need a backup of your “cant lose that” data or if you are like me and would prefer to spend time doing interesting things than putting a new hard drive in, installing Windows, activating Windows, updating Windows, installing the antivirus, updaing the antivirus. Installing the favoured email program and trying to remember the username and password for all 27 email accounts you currently have (and yes, I have 27 of them for myself on my own domain for various reasons) then the bookmarks and the usernames and passwords that go with the subscriptions not to mention……sorry I phased out with boredom. If you want easy, you image your C drive to some other drive. You keep at least 3 images (depends on hard drive space on that other drive) and when C drive unexpectedly karks it, you replace it if needed or if it is physically OK just boot off your CD (in the case of True Image) and wait 40 minutes for everything to be back the way you like it. Oh and 40 minutes was on an old C2D getting the data back out of about 63gigs of compressed image.

So am I boring the reader here? let me put it easily – if you are diametrically opposed to hard work and would rather do SMART work so you can get on with your daily drama you call life, Image backups are what you want. Anything else is like trying to unpick a ship’s hawser without breaking any strands!

As far as I am concerned, operating system images of the primary drive are only a means of quickly restoring the os in the event of an os failure.

I am really glad you said it was YOUR opinion. case in point – a mining industry supplier customer of mine uses heavy electrical equipment in their work. When saving a Word doc, the office manager’s computer which didnt have a UPS attached (and after that dramatic example, they decided I was right and got me to put them in on all machines) had the power cut by a blown fuse due to heavy equipment. When they fixed the mains fuse and the power came back, she had a nice doorstop in front of her but not a working computer. I had previously put that scenario to them and installed True Image to image every machine they had, late at night and save the images on an external drive attached to their server. So I get there, insert a boot CD for True Image and having brought the external drive to that machine, told the machine to go get that image back which was done every night. All data was back excepting what had been done that day (fortunately not a lot lost) and that took about 40 minutes. The office manager had some important docs from a day or so before stored in My Documents and of course they came back, too, so they saw the value in the outlay I insisted they pay for backup. They also saw the value in agreeing to UPS units after that, too but you know what they say about the gate being open and the horse and all….

Image backups are not always entirely useful for a home user but then again it depends on the home user. My own father in law is elderly and sick and he doesnt have to worry about losing data because he is on those same backups. I cant afford the downtime so I have them. Many businesses cant afford downtime so need image backups and oh, yes, you could talk to me about raid setups etc but I have seen the main drive in a mirror go down and write spurious crap and that get mirrrored to the mirror meaning the lot went down. I always insist on image backups. If a virus got in yesterday and wiped out everything 24 hours later, at least you have either the virus laden image backup or the one from the day before the virus to choose from. If you load the older one and pick out data from the virus laden one, you are better off than no image at all.

Setting up you computer in such a way that renders the operating system as unimportant and expendable also goes a long way in dealing with security threats like viruses and malware.

Tell that to banks, stock exchanges, medical places, tax agents…… and the list goes on. Downtime is one of the largest, if not THE largest, expense for many businesses. Limiting downtime is one source of income for I.T. people and limiting it means mirrors or images depending on the business’s perceived needs.

In my not so humble opinion, too many people with absolutely no or limited computer skills are fumbling around trying to find solutions to rid themselves of some irrelevant infection when it is completely unnecessary.

20 to 30 minutes of computer downtime for an image restoration is all that should ever be needed in 99% of all situations.

Again you dont take into account the needs of the user. Most companies and most users at home would prefer to keep all their loved settings as is. That is why you will find, in a lot of places, that the I.T. staff deploying a new machine image it and demand the user keep important stuff on the server or another HD possibly within the shell of the desktop machine itself and they periodically restore that image even if there is nothing going wrong with the machine. Why? Infections get in, users fiddle around, Windows aint perfect. Going back to the image with all setting installed as at the day the machine was deployed just means that all those problems go in short order. Me, I prefer to get rid of the virus. Unless the virus is not known right now (eg, a real new one) then I can get rid of it in under an hour. I tell the user that and let the company or user (whichever is the one with the say in this matter) tell me what they want done. Invariably it is “get rid of the virus”. It isnt as if it is hard, after all. However, if it is a newbie, I do admit it may well take a lot longer and I do run across new viruses more often than you would think. Once you have decided it must be a new virus, finding it is also dead easy but then it may run into 2 hours to fix it if that is the case. Most companies and home users STILL choose to get rid of it rather than format/reinstall.

So what have we learned here by me butting in? Simple- like beauty, the machine’s data priority is in the eye of the beholder – or user in this case. Some choose format/reinstall but most choose “get rid of it”. So dont assume – ask!

Greg.

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The best way to ensure that image restoration and creation is done in a timely maner is to separate out as much of your user data as possible from the operating system. And the best way to accomplish that would be to keep a well organized file system with key folders located off the primary operating system partition. Many folders in windows 7 can be moved to other locations appart from the operating system. Partitions are good, but extra internal drives are better.

I’m inclined to say…it depends. If you have only one HDD, and it’s less than 60-75% full, why spend any money that you don’t have to–just split that drive into C: and D: partitions and move the My Documents folder (or better, the whole user folder–search LifeHacker.com for the article on “Profile Relocator”).

Even if you have two HDDs already, if your primary drive is anything over 100GB in size (which it will be on any fairly new system, unless the drive is an SSD), why waste that space? Keep D: on the primary drive, and use the second drive for a dedicated swap file partition (to eliminate swap file fragmentation and keep swap file access from slowing down access to the program files on C: ) and a second partition for either backups or large media files (JPEGs, TIFFs, MP3s, MP4s, etc.–the things that really chew up space; just relocate My Music, My Videos, and My Pictures there).

Of course, if you’ve got $80 burning a hole in your pocket, by all means pop for that bargain on a 1TB drive (or two) for whatever uses your mind can devise (no snark–I have 3 HDDs on my system).

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Thank you for your strong opinion on this critical topic. Too often general advice is dispensed without commitment, leaving us to wonder how important the issue truly is.

Your no-nonsense tone caused me to re-read this several times. I know you’re right; Fred Langa wrote about this years ago. Now I have another project for the weekend.

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I think that external drives are usually formatted as FAT32, and most of us routinely convert them to NTFS. Your drive doesn’t happen to be FAT32, does it?

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BJ & All,

I got wrapped up with this and thought I should check out my memory since I have a bad case of CRS.
A full image of my machine {about 60 Gb in 3 Partitions} with True Image 2010 using standard compression and verification took 55 minutes. This is using Win-7 64 Bit, Intel Core2 Quad Q6600 # 2.4GHz w/4 GB @400Mhz DDR2 PC-6400.

However, this is still an order of magnitude faster than TI 11 {note: that is not 2011 but 11 before they went to year naming}.

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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I was due for a backup, so I dedided to time the entire process like RetiredGeek did. I dual-boot Windows 7 Ultimate and Windows 7 Home Premium, and each installation is on three separate partitions/logical drives, which makes for a total of 6 drive images.

I use BootIt Next Generation, I run an image/validation on each individual drive/partition (although BootITNG does allow for image sets) to an external eSATA drive dock with a 1TB drive, and the total time for all 6 was one hour sixteen minutes. 77.9GB was compressed to 24.9GB in the process.

(BootIt Next Generation has been upgraded to BootIt Bare Metal, but I haven’t upgraded yet.)

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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I would say that times really depend on the external hard drive, other than the amount of data. My desktop (190 GB) takes about an hour or so with TI 2010 and a USB 2.0 external drive. When backing up to the external e-sata drive, takes about 40 minutes or so.

Backing up the laptop is much slower, comparatively, as it’s around 60 GB and takes more or less the same time.

Must time it next time I do it, as it seems my backups are way too fast when compared with what you have here.

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I don’t believe the OP or I specified that the Seagate drive we are talking about is a 2-1/2″ drive, not a 3-1/2″, which is the standard that most users think of when talking about an external drive in an enclosure. What has been mentioned is that it does not have an independent power supply (it sucks the lifeblood out of your computer via the USB connector).

There is a world of difference between that and something like a WD My Book, which is a common external 3-1/2″ drive with power supply. Five hundred GB is still the normal max for a laptop’s own drive, and these are external and highly portable drives, 500 GB in my case and 750 in his.

I appear to be the only one with Acronis 2011 (plus) and I never time backups – I set them to shut the computer off when finished and do something else. I spent too many years feeding giant stacks of floppies into drives to get a backup to want to watch the silly thing do it for me.

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There has been a world of valuable information shared in this thread, but it seems we have lost sight of my original question, that being was my system taking too long to do its job. I think that has been answered, that it is not outrageously long. I don’t sit around watching this process either, but have been mildly surprised when I return after 45 min or so and it is still working. As Retired Geek and Dogberry have explained, the USB 2.0 must be the bottleneck. Okay, won’t worry about time any longer.

I have been ‘shopping’ for another backup program to try, have downloaded Macrium Reflect but not used it yet. Was going to order Acronis 2011 plus until I read all the bad press in Amazon. 130 something posts and most of them very derogatory. They can’t all be idiots, can they? I would believe the folks here in the forum first, but it does leave me with angst over getting it.

BJ

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I second the bad opinion on TI 2011. I have a license I don’t use, because TI 2011 is buggy and way slower than TI 2010.

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I have used both 2010 and 2011 (mine and wife’s PC) and both work fine for me.

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I think a review of the Acronis TI Users (not support) Forum :flee: is instructive:
http://forum.acronis.com/forums/acronis-discussion-forums/acronis-home-home-office-products-discussions/acronis-true-image-ho

Although the BASIC functionality of ATI seems OK, most of the advanced (automatic) features don’t work well (if they work at all). This include Non-Stop Backup, Try & Decide, consolidation of incremental & differential backups, automatic deletion of old differentials, and , in some cases email notifications. I don’t see that the basic functionality of ATI has any advantage over several free programs (EASEUS, Macrium, Paragon) for nonautomated or semi-automated use by the average user. Acronis seems to be SELLING its program based on the promise of advanced functionalities which, as far as I can tell, are smoke & mirrors with updates/patches having been promised for several years now. Acronis (basic functions) CAN work successfully; the question is, do you want to PAY for a program with only 30 days’ free support, when other alternatives are available? Backup (& restore) need to be automatic & bulletproof beginning with NOW.
I originally bought Acronis based on the reputation it had built up over the years; my reading of the Forum is that the program deteriorated significantly after 2009, and is in a continued pattern of yearly new editions, without totally fixing the glitches in the previous year’s program. The consumer as beta-tester (for a fee).

Zig

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This has been a long time issue with Acronis that usually ends up at the same place. There were several former Lounge regulars that abandoned Acronis because of similar issues. However, there are several users of Acronis in the Lounge that are very successful with it.

Joe

--Joe

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I use Acronis TI 2010 and I do so primarily because it will backup to a NAS drive whereas Windows 7 Home does not. I seem to be the only person that uses NAS in preference to an external drive of some sort.

I bought the d-Link DNS-323 and populated it with two 750 Gb drives because I wanted a backup destination that was separate from the systems doing the backup and also separate from other systems on my LAN. The NAS storage allows all three of my systems to use them (NAS drives) independently and they are always available even from outside my LAN via the built in FTP server and the Internet. In the past, they also facilitated keeping certain files synched between all systems and sharing certain files. This is less important with Win7. The NAS device is independently powered and the drives automatically spin down when idle and up on demand.

That said, the DNS-323 speed is limited to 10/100 so it is not the fastest game in town but the price is good.

As one poster has suggested, I would like to separate as much user data as possible from system files so I could schedule a data backup independently and more frequently from a system backup which probably only needs a monthly backup. I have been hesitant to attempt the separation of system and user data because I am unsure where the appropriate pointers are found that set the default locations as well as the pointers for Libraries, Homegroup info and Shared and Public files.I do appreciate that some applications may have their own default data locations and even that some may not be configurable. I would at least like to move the ‘standard’ user data files (Documents, Pictures, Videos, Music, etc.). Can anyone point me to a reference that covers the configuration and reconfiguration of these files along with Homegroup and Library configurations etc.

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Can anyone point me to a reference that covers the configuration and reconfiguration of these files along with Homegroup and Library configurations etc.

You might be interested in Set 7 Free. Bear in mind it is geared toward advanced users only.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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@gregwh
First off, I’m not talking about industry level and/or internet based businesses. I fully expect that they will have the faculty and IT knowledge necessary to accomodate their own unique needs under a variety of circumstances.

So keep your generalizations within the context of the average home users, something for which this forum is largely intended.

Secondly,
the OP is concerned with image creation and restoration taking an inordinate amout of time to actualize. Having a 40-60 MB image is going to take a certain amount of time irregardless of what software program is used to do the actual imaging. Advising on reducing the amount of data to be imaged IS addressing the OP’s concern. There are many forms of multi-approach backup regimens, and individual users will have to decide what is ultimately best for themselves from the perspective of their own circumstances. One form should not be the sole means.
A good example of unnecessary image bloat would be including tens or hundreds of MB’s worth of quality photos in an operating system image, even for advanced graphical artists. Any artist worth their salt would have had their photos backed up independantly of imaging, and that includes many other data types as well, like office documents/spreadsheets etc. I am not against the use of imaging as a means of backup, but as a sole means this is inadequate and a combination of approaches are needed to prevent loss of data.

It’s hard enough to get your average users to do imaging type backups in the first place, and I suppose this is better than nothing, but I think we can do better and I am not talking about a “one space only” means of backup. User defined important data should be backed up independantly of an image so that the sole reliance is not on the image & os, but on several hard copy data locations, be they hard drive based and or other media. If one chooses to use only all-encompassing image backups they will eventually find themselves in a situation where the image will fail to recover.

The operating system is not important, it is merely a means to an end.
Operating system recovery should only take 20-30 min., that includes personal settings and a predetermined set of mission critical programs. User data defined as important need not be included as long as there is an adequate backup, and it need not necessarily be image based.

File System Organization
File system organization is the hallmark of good computing. With a well organized file system the user knows where everything is located, unfortunately, this is not the average users strong point.
creating/restoring images, having hard copied data in various media, and setting up a well organized file structure are two completely different things that when combined will complement each other, irregardless of catastrophic system based failures…as long as a multi approach is used, and that is what I have always, and continue to advocate.

Viruses and malware of any type may not need to be a concern to anybody, except the overly-zealous security industry. If only your average user could grasp the concept of true backup.
These infective situations are completely recoverable quite easily with the proper backup regimens. Too many people in forums similar to this spending gastly amounts of time and effort seeking help with infestations that could have easily been circumvented with a solid workable backup regimen.

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chimo79
As one poster has suggested, I would like to separate as much user data as possible from system files so I could schedule a data backup independently and more frequently from a system backup which probably only needs a monthly backup. I have been hesitant to attempt the separation of system and user data because I am unsure where the appropriate pointers are found that set the default locations as well as the pointers for Libraries, Homegroup info and Shared and Public files.I do appreciate that some applications may have their own default data locations and even that some may not be configurable. I would at least like to move the ‘standard’ user data files (Documents, Pictures, Videos, Music, etc.). Can anyone point me to a reference that covers the configuration and reconfiguration of these files along with Homegroup and Library configurations etc.

@chimo79
My method, and this is my preferred method of ensuring continuity of backup, would be to have more than one internal drive. If one does not have a second drive, a partition, assuming one has the adequate space, will achieve separation of valuable user generated date from the operating system as a first step. The second and most important aspect of this would be to also have hard copied data from these separate locations backed up to other media to ensure recovery in the event of a catastrophic system wide failure. (multi-layered approach to backup)

I prefer to use imaging based backup only as a sole means of recovering an operating system with only my preferred user settings, tweaks, and mission critical programs…and nothing more.
This way it saves HDD real-estate, improves os level performance, and makes imaging faster with smaller sized image storing.
I do not have a business whereby I need to run nightly restore regimens, so that would not be relevant to me and data can easily be separated. I also don’t have to worry about other users mucking things up in my system that would necessitate nightly restores.
Since you have decided to move much of your user generated data off the primary os resident drive, there will be little need to run weekly or monthly images of the os unless you have made major changes.

Windows 7 offers a better opportunity to export common and popular folders than any previous MS operating system version.

I’ll get to the actual moving of the folders part shortly, but first some things that need to be done & reconciled before hand;

1. Create and name your folders in the alternate location prior to moving the actual folders first.
In order to transfer them to a different location you need to have a folder to transfer them into.
2. The alternate location needs to be reasonably stable. A plugged in, always-on internal HDD is ideal. If you are going to port to
NAS, or an external HDD you need to be able to rely on these being viable and always working. An internal drive connected directly to
the mainboard fits the bill better in my opinion than the others.
3. Ensure your operating system is healthy, up-to-date and well patched prior to the moving of folders filled with valuable data.
It’s a very good idea to have all the mission critical applications your going to need already installed and running smoothly. Conflicting software should have long ago been rectified or dropped from usage altogether. This includes potentially buggy software like I-Tunes for Windows, as an example.
4. Turn indexing and system restore off to any other partition or drive other than the primary drive the os resides on. You want to remove any such operating system hooks to other locations prior to the move. You can always re-enable them after set up is complete. You also want to ensure that your os is not already over invasively tweaked.
“Tweaking” the os should always be done after an advanced system level change, not before. Ensure that you temporarily restore system or process services that may have an ill effect.
5. Image the drive once everything is setup to your satisfaction and do not rely on images of prior to setups, as the registry links would have not been present yet.

User Folders – Change Default Locations
This Windows Seven forum link provides information on the basic premise on how to go about moving common folders.
(These are considered very basic manipulations. There are far more advanced user profile and application install moves possible. I would not undertake any of the more advanced changes untill these more basic ones are well understood).
Registry links that reflect the alternate locations will be created upon the proper modifying of the folder locations in question so that subsequent images performed will also reflect this upon restoration,…provided that no major manipulation is performed to the registry.

Office applications (all)
You do not need to install office applications to any non standard locations, but merely configure them to store (or save) generated content to the alternate location(s). These would also, I assume, cover on the fly backing up of documents in the creation/writing or editing stage, if you have chosen to enabled such a feature.
The “Office Applications” forums would be a good place to address any such issues relating to the above.

Email root storage folders, including multiple accounts, passwords, and other data specific to email
Most if not all email programs worth their salt will offer to move their root locations away from the os and also provide export capabilities for any back up needs.
I use Windows Live Mail 2011, so I can only speak for this application. The “Non Outlook Email” section would be a good place to address all other email clients, including WLM if further need arises.

Desktop content & Default download folders
Although I prefer to save all my downloaded content from the internet to very specific alternate locations, the default “download” folder can easily be moved also,
along with the “Desktop” folder in your username section.

I hope at least some of this helps, PS
I may move your post to create a separate thread if you are planning on continuing this discussion.
CLiNT

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Thanks Clint. I have plenty to keep me going with what you have provided. I do have two internal drives. Actually three but the main ones are two WD 1Tb Caviar Black that I added to the old 500Gb original drive when I rebuilt the system a few months ago.

My main objective is simply to remove the main user data in the ‘standard’ location to the second drive. It constitutes about 150Gb in pictures, music and various documents.

I have in mind doing a system image (without the above user data) monthly just to capture the most recent Windows Updates. The user data, which is more important, I plan to back up weekly, keeping and rotating the last three or four copies.

The NAS storage is the destination for these backups but I haven’t decided if Acronis direct backup to NAS is better than Windows backup utilities to a local hard drive with a separate move to the NAS.

@chimo79
My method, and this is my preferred method of ensuring continuity of backup, would be to have more than one internal drive. If one does not have a second drive, a partition, assuming one has the adequate space, will achieve separation of valuable user generated date from the operating system as a first step. The second and most important aspect of this would be to also have hard copied data from these separate locations backed up to other media to ensure recovery in the event of a catastrophic system wide failure. (multi-layered approach to backup)

Snip…..
CLiNT

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@chimo79
3. Ensure your operating system is healthy, up-to-date and well patched prior to the moving of folders filled with valuable data…

4. … You also want to ensure that your os is not already over invasively tweaked.
“Tweaking” the os should always be done after an advanced system level change, not before…
CLiNT

Hi Clint,

First, thanks for a very helpful post. You have covered some very useful points on imaging ones system (and data) separately – and this has brought me a greater focus on how to proceed in my particular case.

I have a few questions for my own clarification.

About your point 3 above: From what I understand when changing the default location for user folders some entries in the registry are changed to point to a different location. If that is all, why is ensuring ‘your operating system is healthy, up-to-date and well patched prior to the moving of folders filled with valuable data…‘ important.

About your point 4: My question may not be directly about what you are saying here. So I will simply put it the way it occurs to me.

How do I minimise a major annoyance when I replace a system image. This is the fact that a lot of ‘tweaks’ and changes have to be redone.

I am addressing two types of tweaks and changes here:

One you mention directly: system wide tweaks: services, DEP settings, and a myriad of other adjustments I find myself making, because I am new to Windows 7, and still learning. There may be no solution to this other than to redo these after an image restore. Perhaps, I will simply need to keep a written record of the tweaks I make after making an image. Is there a way to backup up and restore only Windows 7 system settings, separately?

Secondly: settings for applications.(for example Iron Chrome which I use a lot), have to be redone after an image restore. Again, I am new to Chrome, so always learning and adjusting settings. To give off-the-cuff examples: forum passwords I have saved may no longer be there – and nor will recent bookmarks, search engines I have added etc. Actually, I am so new to Chrome I haven’t looked to see if it can be backed up separately at regular intervals – and restored separately after restoring a system image?!

Finally, a couple of general questions for anyone reading: The App Data folder for a user stores a lot of settings – for the Iron Chrome browser, for example. I am assumng that the default location for this folder is best not moved. After restoring a system image would it be foolish to replace the the old and restored system image of App Data with a more current (recently backed up) one? If not could one at least replace the Default Profile for Chrome (C:UsersUserName/AppDataLocalChromiumUser Data) type folders without registry/system file implications etc.

Last question, again a general one: I realize that the VHD image with Microsoft’s backup imaging takes longer, and is much larger – when compared to other imaging solutions (Macrium, Paragon etc). Setting these time and size considerations aside, and given that the Microsoft VHD solution is, from what I gather, extremely reliable, is there any other good reason to turn to an alternative?

Thank you.

Win 7 Home Premium x64.

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Hi Clint,

How do I minimise a major annoyance when I replace a system image. This is the fact that a lot of ‘tweaks’ and changes have to be redone.

I am addressing two types of tweaks and changes here:

One you mention directly: system wide tweaks: services, DEP settings, and a myriad of other adjustments I find myself making, because I am new to Windows 7, and still learning. There may be no solution to this other than to redo these after an image restore. Perhaps, I will simply need to keep a written record of the tweaks I make after making an image. Is there a way to backup up and restore only Windows 7 system settings, separately?

Secondly: settings for applications.(for example Iron Chrome which I use a lot), have to be redone after an image restore. Again, I am new to Chrome, so always learning and adjusting settings. To give off-the-cuff examples: forum passwords I have saved may no longer be there – and nor will recent bookmarks, search engines I have added etc. Actually, I am so new to Chrome I haven’t looked to see if it can be backed up separately at regular intervals – and restored separately after restoring a system image?!

Finally, a couple of general questions for anyone reading: The App Data folder for a user stores a lot of settings – for the Iron Chrome browser, for example. I am assumng that the default location for this folder is best not moved. After restoring a system image would it be foolish to replace the the old and restored system image of App Data with a more current (recently backed up) one? If not could one at least replace the Default Profile for Chrome (C:UsersUserName/AppDataLocalChromiumUser Data) type folders without registry/system file implications etc.

Last question, again a general one: I realize that the VHD image with Microsoft’s backup imaging takes longer, and is much larger – when compared to other imaging solutions (Macrium, Paragon etc). Setting these time and size considerations aside, and given that the Microsoft VHD solution is, from what I gather, extremely reliable, is there any other good reason to turn to an alternative?

Thank you.

Win 7 Home Premium x64.

When you back up the Windows 7 64-bit Operating System, Acronis True Image reminds us that there are actually two partitions which should be backed up into the same archive at the same time. These are the Windows Partition (usually C: ) and the very small System Partition. It is within the System Partition that a lot of Windows 7 customization settings are stored. So, if you are losing settings or tweaks, you may not be backing up both of these partitions at the same time to the same archive.

As for Google Chrome and most email programs, the App Data live in two locations. One is Local and the other is Roaming. A simple Window copy/paste operation on the App Data folders for each user of the computer will back up these settings and in almost all cases, the email archives. This technique works for me with Thunderbird, Eudora, Chrome, Firefox, and some other programs. Outlook messages live in .PST files, which are a bit more difficult to back up and restore. It takes only a few minutes a day, and all settings are preserved, along with all user Profile Data.

The OP is getting the expected time performance for an Image Backup which ends up as 60GB archive size, given the limitations of USB drives. E-SATA Drives are a bit faster, and USB 3.0 is faster still. Firewire is not well supported on PCs, so I would shy away from that type of connection.

I do separate data, media, and System (OS+Programs) into different partitions. My internal Hard Drive is 500 GB. I image only the OS and Windows System Partitions. I use Windows Copy/Paste on ordinary data. A File Backup program (included in True Image) is more efficient than Windows Copy/Paste for huge media files. Data are backed up daily or weekly, Images are made monthly or twice monthly, and Media Files are backed up as they accumulate. So I use three methods, three external locations, and therefore three backup drives for my Windows 7 computer. The size of the external drives should be large, but over 2TB is overkill, unless you have a HUGE media library.

I have been able to confine my OS and System Partitions to less than 40GB, and without any special relocations of user data or anything else, this disk space remains fairly constant. Backups with True Image Home take twenty minutes without compression, and backup archives are rarely as large as 20GB on the external drives. None of this uses excessive time or disk space, in my opinion.

And upon restoration, I have never had to restore manually any customizations or tweaks in Windows XP or Windows 7. As long as I restore from Image Archives and remember to back up the Win-7 System Partition, my settings are saved and preserved.

2011-05-25 @midnight — glad you found this information useful.

-- rc primak

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The OP is getting the expected time performance for an Image Backup which ends up as 60GB archive size, given the limitations of USB drives. E-SATA Drives are a bit faster, and USB 3.0 is faster still. Firewire is not well supported on PCs, so I would shy away from that type of connection.

OP here! Thanks for this informative bit about the Firewire connection. Having read all of the posts here diligently and learned much, I am now aware that my backup and system image time is ‘about normal’ [what ever that may mean!] for a USB connected drive. Interestingly I had the opportunity yesterday to learn how long it takes to restore my system image as well as back it up. Trying to solve a software problem involving a printer, I managed to totally crash my system and had to go the repair disk/restore image route. GULP! And the result is that it took a little longer than the 10-20 minutes I see quoted here, but it did work just fine and now I have a benchmark for that process as well.

BJ

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OP here! Thanks for this informative bit about the Firewire connection. Having read all of the posts here diligently and learned much, I am now aware that my backup and system image time is ‘about normal’ [what ever that may mean!] for a USB connected drive.
BJ

I don’t know your machine, but not many PCs even have a firewire port (historically at least – I don’t know about the current crop). I certainly agree that your backup time is what I would expect, and I wish you well with your efforts.

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@bethel95

I’m inclined to say…it depends. If you have only one HDD, and it’s less than 60-75% full, why spend any money that you don’t have to–just split that drive into C: and D: partitions and move the My Documents folder (or better, the whole user folder–search LifeHacker.com for the article on “Profile Relocator”).

Even if you have two HDDs already, if your primary drive is anything over 100GB in size (which it will be on any fairly new system, unless the drive is an SSD), why waste that space? Keep D: on the primary drive, and use the second drive for a dedicated swap file partition (to eliminate swap file fragmentation and keep swap file access from slowing down access to the program files on C: ) and a second partition for either backups or large media files (JPEGs, TIFFs, MP3s, MP4s, etc.–the things that really chew up space; just relocate My Music, My Videos, and My Pictures there).

Of course, if you’ve got $80 burning a hole in your pocket, by all means pop for that bargain on a 1TB drive (or two) for whatever uses your mind can devise (no snark–I have 3 HDDs on my system).

Yes, especially in the case of a laptop computer where physical realestate is tight. A partition would work nicely…and also hard copied to external, and other media as well.
For a typical desktop system where one has many internal SATA ports specifically made for internal drives, why not use them. Drives arn’t that expensive.
I think you go along way safety wise, if important data is located on a separate drive as opposed to just a partition on the same drive.
And that very same data can and should also be backed up externally as well. (so backup x 2 or 3)
Swap file fragmentation is basically a non issue in Windows 7 imo. There is no need to move or even have it reconfigured beyond that of default settings.
All that extra space, as far as my setup goes, is great for editing large amounts of video and digital photos. I have an SSD for my primary drive and it works out well
as far as the extra responsivness I get when doing video editing on the faster drive. After I have completed the editing the final product is moved off and then deleted from the primary drive. So the space isn’t realy wasted, it’s there in the event that it is needed, call it breathing room.

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@discs

About your point 3 above: From what I understand when changing the default location for user folders some entries in the registry are changed to point to a different location. If that is all, why is ensuring ‘your operating system is healthy, up-to-date and well patched prior to the moving of folders filled with valuable data…’ important.

Force of habbit mostly, whenever planning major changes or tweaks to the os, ensure that it is in a healthy state prior to doing so in order to minimize any potential problem that may crop up later. I think it’s just good practice generally.

Is there a way to backup up and restore only Windows 7 system settings, separately?

I don’t think so, if there is I would like to here of it too.

Secondly: settings for applications.(for example Iron Chrome which I use a lot), have to be redone after an image restore. Again, I am new to Chrome, so always learning and adjusting settings. To give off-the-cuff examples: forum passwords I have saved may no longer be there – and nor will recent bookmarks, search engines I have added etc. Actually, I am so new to Chrome I haven’t looked to see if it can be backed up separately at regular intervals – and restored separately after restoring a system image?!

I can’t speek for chrome, because I don’t use it at present. I do use IE9 and have successfully moved the browser cache and favorites folers off the drive. You may need to take a closer look at Chrome’s documentation. Unless I delete the contents of the browser cache, many settings are saved when image restoration is done.
More advanced “moves”, like user profiles and program installations are bbearren’s specialty, as I typically don’t go that far.

Last question, again a general one: I realize that the VHD image with Microsoft’s backup imaging takes longer, and is much larger – when compared to other imaging solutions (Macrium, Paragon etc). Setting these time and size considerations aside, and given that the Microsoft VHD solution is, from what I gather, extremely reliable, is there any other good reason to turn to an alternative?

That’s a good question and it’s probably true that MS imaging/restoration takes longer and has less compression than many 3rd party solutions.
MS does something weird with their imaging program, it only includes data that has changed in multiple backups stored together. So if you have done 3 separate images of your drive, the consumed space it takes up will be far less than it would be if 3 separate images had been done.
As an example, I use the Windows 7 imaging application and I have created 4 images stored on a seperate internal drive with plenty of space. (150 GB raptor) The total combined space of those images are approx 30.2 GB. My current operating system takes up approx. 22.2 GB worth of space on it’s primary drive. (SSD).

Many 3rd party imaging apps will have far more fine control and feature sets that just arn’t part of the MS imaging application. The Windows 7 imaging tool is basic, but adequate for most novice users, or even those with simpler backup needs. A discussion on the various differences between various applications would probably warrent it’s own thread.

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Stuff Happens is a free (and recent) guide to backups that might interest contributors to this very active thread. I didn’t write it so don’t blame me if you don’t like it, but by all means post comments if you find interesting (or otherwise) arguments in it.

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My Seagate ext HD was formated as Fat32 as well. First thing I did was reformat to NTFS. I’m able to store dozens of different Images from our several PC’s with no problems.

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