Microsoft should take advantage of the Win10 1803 delay and….

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… and cancel it altogether. Here are the feature improvements being touted for 1803: Timeline – a way to go back to your desktop at an earlier point
[See the full post at: Microsoft should take advantage of the Win10 1803 delay and….]

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pruntytech, ve2mrx, Elly, flackcatcher, Ascaris, Karlston, Great Lake Bunyip, Noel Carboni

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None of these features seem to be worth the hassle and nail biting of upgrading for.

Microsoft, are you listening to us? I want a stable computer that I can use each and every day. Are you allergic to that or something?

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seamonkey420, Elly, lurks about, Great Lake Bunyip

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Are we forgetting about Diagnostic data viewer?

Nice article about new features:

https://pureinfotech.com/windows-10-redstone-4-version-1803-new-features/#new_system_experience_windows10

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Great Lake Bunyip, Noel Carboni

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Diagnostic Data Viewer is nice but, ultimately, not very useful for normal people.

What we need is a big “Telemetry Off” switch. Instead, we get little snooping enhancements like killing “Disable Web Search.”

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seamonkey420, Elly, Great Lake Bunyip

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I agree-WHY NOT JUST RELEASE A NEW VERSION of windows EVERY year than twice a year-once a year when ya got all the tweeks out. It’ll save us all the hassle and trouble

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Why not every couple of years or so release an LTS version good for 5 or 6 years. Do what Ubuntu does or do want Linux Mint does. I do not see that many new features coming out that are well enough developed every 6 months to warrant a new version of any OS.

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wdburt1, Elly, Cybertooth

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Those ‘new’ versions are just service packs… You’ll notice it’s a new version when it’s no longer called Windows 10…

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The naming conventions continue to be absurd.

They should do 1 major update every 1-2 years, and call it a dot update, 10.1, 10.2, since you gave up on using SP1, SP2. Drop the dates and the froo-froo imaginarily important words trying to inflate the usefulness of the update. (You’ve already shot yourselves in the foot and ruined this by calling multiple updates a “creator update” so just stop it. Now. Eventually there’s going to be multiple “Spring Creator’s Update” and “Fall Creator’s Update”, and people are going to get even more confused than you’ve already made them.)

Otherwise – once monthly security updates to prod.

All the “preview” rollups should go to Insiders. This is why you have a minimum of 3 environments – dev, test, and prod. Insiders are test. Prod is public release. LEAVE US ALONE.

Quit stretching yourselves thin which you’re obviously doing. Your devs can’t handle it and neither can your QA. Enough already!

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BobbyB, ve2mrx, Elly, flackcatcher, Cybertooth, lurks about, Great Lake Bunyip, woody, sheldon, lanceboil

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Most folks will probably agree with the “it’s too hectic” theme. Most of us want a stable, reliable computer operating system on which we can base our businesses or games or whatever.

But Microsoft doesn’t really want what we want. They want to use us to generate valuable data for them in ways we haven’t thought of ways to block yet. To get people to advertise to us in ways we can’t opt out of. To get us to write the software and give them a piece of the profits.

They want to monetize us.

For that they need a frenetic release pace. They want to get out of the “maintaining the world’s operating system” business because it’s hard to do, and they think it doesn’t make them money to have to work that hard to just keep polishing Windows to make it better and more productive. That’s just too boring.

I think the only real flaw in their new philosophy is that they haven’t worked up new features we really want to have Windows 10 for. Why? Because serious software engineering is actually quite difficult to do. They haven’t REALLY made Windows “the most secure ever” because that involves stabilizing it and working out the bugs and closing off the security vulnerabilities – all of which are antithetic to a breakneck release pace.

Guess what? The old versions actually are still quite viable even today. What does it say that Windows 7 is still preferred by nearly half the world when it’s almost a decade old? What does it say when someone like me (in business doing software engineering) chooses to stay with Windows 8.1, now 5 years old?

The ironic thing is that Microsoft could have sold us all several new versions of Windows at a few hundred dollars each if all they’d done is just continue developing Windows 7, making what it did well even better. They could have called it 8.1, 9, etc., and today we’d have some serious advances in computing technology instead of something that’s desperately trying to become what we called spyware and malware not so long ago…

So yeah, Microsoft, just stop. Start on a new version of Windows to be the next generational advancement in serious computing. Your success will follow. It did last time!

-Noel

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Rock, wdburt1, BobbyB, Steve S., Sessh, ve2mrx, DAVe3283, Microfix, Elly, flackcatcher, David F, Karlston, lurks about, LH, Great Lake Bunyip, jelson, dononline, AlexEiffel, sheldon, lanceboil

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And, M/S, could you please market this new version by 2020? A lot of us would be ever so grateful……………………………

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Elly, flackcatcher, David F, Great Lake Bunyip

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My sense is no one at the upper echelons of MS truly understands software development and OSes. But they think they do. Thus they are seduced by all the fancy buzzword bingo games and the idea of rapid release cycles. For a browser that might work because if you screw up to badly there are others available but for OS that risks disaster for the user. User options are limited if the OS is torched. For comparison, I have 11 browsers installed (I do some web design) but only 1 OS. If my default browser screws up too much, I have a few others I can use very easily. But if the OS croaks I am in deep trouble very quickly.

Like you said Noel, I want OS stability first and foremost. With other bits, I can tolerate a bit of bugginess as long as I have other reasonable options to use.

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Noel Carboni, wdburt1, Sessh, Elly, flackcatcher, Karlston

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As I wrote the other day, the rapid pace of new stuff thrown into Windows 10 (and the continuous reduction of user control of their own machines) would not be out of place if Windows 10 were an online game or an old-style online service like AOL or Prodigy prior to the age of the mainstream internet.

With those kinds of things (and games in particular), constant change and new features are not only accepted, but demanded.  A game that is not constantly adding new things for people to do is going to lose customers to those games which do offer that.  Even change for the sake of change keeps things moving and prevents boredom… it lets the customers know that at least the dev is engaged and active.

The problem is that Windows is not Prodigy or World of Warcraft.  The old-style online services like Prodigy are obsolete now that we have the internet, and World of Warcraft is a game, which is by definition not serious.  Neither an obsolete service that has no place in 2018 nor a game are usable templates for the world’s most popular PC OS.  It’s not even an apples and oranges comparison; it’s more apples and doctors (source of that unknown; I wish I remembered).  They’re not even from the same domain!

If you stop trying to make Windows into something other than “just” an operating system, we’d all be a lot better off, MS.  Maybe if you’d done that, I wouldn’t be typing this post from Linux.  You had me, Microsoft; I was a dedicated user of nothing but Microsoft operating systems from 1990 (MS-DOS 3.31 and Windows 3.0) forward, or even further back (about another five years) if you consider the Microsoft BASIC that Commodore licensed from you to form the ROM-based OS/shell for the Commodore 64.  I was perfectly happy to keep using and even evangelizing Windows, but you blew it when you tried to make Windows into something it’s not.  You’re still in the process of blowing it for millions of others.  Stop!

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Cascadian, AlexEiffel, Noel Carboni, lurks about, wdburt1, Sessh, ve2mrx, Elly, flackcatcher, David F

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Ascaris wrote:

[Microsoft]…you blew it when you tried to make Windows into something it’s not. You’re still in the process of blowing it for millions of others.

Something it’s not – and can’t become. It’s not macOS and it’s not Linux and it shouldn’t try to be. It’s supposed to be – it needs to be – the serious OS that powers business, because its engineering and security are taken seriously. Professionally.

C’mon, we *just* got to OSs that we can hope to run for weeks and months and process terabytes of data without glitches – and you just stop trying to make it even better? Instead choosing to hang all kinds of application junkware all over it?

Minimum processes on a well-tuned system to support a no nonsense, productive desktop:

Windows XP – under 20
Windows Vista – under 30
Windows 7 – around 30
Windows 8.1 – high 30s
Windows 10 v1709 – something like 80!

Even though Windows 10 muddies the water by splitting out all the services into separate processes, there is still FAR more bloat in Windows 10 than any of its predecessors – yet no one here can identify any must-have functionality. It’s as though you forgot what part was OS and what part you ought to leave to the developers of the world. Show me, for example, any substantive reason why your Calculator App is better than calc.exe, or why your Weather App is better than a web page. Just give up on that s***! Apps don’t add value.

-Noel

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Cascadian, AlexEiffel, Ascaris

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Woody,

Amen brother!

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Right now, it should be clear that there could be two paths for this. Those excited by novelty could beta test Windows as much as they want and improve Windows every six months, adding, changing, removing things based on feedback while the rest of us wait for some less frequent updates.

When you think about it, Microsoft often evolved by throwing at people half-baked features that they later removed, forgot there, or improved and kept. They do produced a great UI for productivity work that has not been surpassed yet. They made mistakes, but there are things they have done well.

Suppose for a moment you get Windows 2017. Then voluntary users can opt to run Windows 2017.2, 2018.1, 2018.2 as much as they want, while no one is forced to leave Windows 2017 until 6 years later. Every 3 years, they release a new stable version that will last at least 6 years. You could switch to it after a small period of wait to have initial bugs settled. Or this version could be the one that has been running for a year, maybe minus the clear irritants that people found since the initial release (like the inability to disable web search could be fixed on 1803 a year later when they release the “stable” 1803). Those who like stability but feel confident in these more stable versions could be tempted to upgrade sooner than 6 years later, maybe at the next stable release only 3 years later if they see enough benefit of upgrading. Those would not have to retweak their system every 6 months or worry about program incompatibilities and other issues. Of course I would prefer this cycle to cover 3 releases (9 years) and not 6 for those who are not interested at all in upgrading their OS ever too and dislike throwing away a still perfectly functioning 6 years old computer, but at least 6 would be a bit more reasonable.

As for the too many versions argument they once served us, I tell them force your security updates if you want on those stable version, but let people delay them a bit if they want. Don’t add anything else than security updates and do it well. Simple. Elegant. Respectable. Seriously, if you were running Windows 2017 for 3 years with no change except security updates that are not disruptive and an ability to remove patches and/or delay them for a month or so until they are stable, there would be a lot less  complaints about updates. Even picky users like Noel and me would be happy to tweak the OS to our liking and then just surf on it until the next stable release. I bet Noel would probably not wait 6 years and hop on the next stable version 3 years later after carefully evaluating it  to see if it would be suitable for his productivity infused world. I bet he might even experience that little excitement for discovering a new OS again like a child opens a present for his birthday.

Also, maybe there should be Windows for people who have their head in the cloud, and Windows for people who want nothing with that : simpler, opt-outable telemetry, no app store. Same core, much different outside. But that will never happen.

Lately, the more I am thinking about what I would like for an OS, the less I like what is offered. Windows has never been ideal in that respect to me, but it was what was best offered. I never liked the idea that any software can do about whatever it wants on my computer when I install it, that now you often get a front UI and some services that don’t just update the software in the background.

And in this new world where it seems normal to get spied on our unrelated computing habits all the time by any streaming music service we locally install or whatever else, I find all that disturbing that I don’t feel like I have much control over that while it becomes something we are expected to accept without thinking twice. An app store where apps have limited permissions to access anything seems like a progress, but it is a mess of complexity to manage and there are so many ways to interconnect and spy on us anyway using those that I don’t really feel like it is a solution, maybe even more a problem depending on how it gets presented to the user and on how they check how you use the software without clear optional consent. I would like an OS where by default, every access to the rest of my computer is denied to the software unless I specifically allow it. Maybe the folks at Qubes have the right intuition? I don’t want to be part of a big marketplace with the stuff I own and who I am in my house. I don’t want my music software to know what I am browsing online. Can I have only programs that perform the function I want them for? Should there be a group of people devising some kind of idealistic pledge of privacy that some software developers could adhere to?

I might sound off-topic with the last paragraph, but 1803 is going clearly in the opposite direction of what I think an OS should be. I find this disabling of the group policy to disable web search a true disrespect of user’s privacy and freedom of choice, a frontal assault on those who wish to preserve themselves a bit from what Windows is becoming, a clear demonstration of power on those who think they can win this game. It is a declaration of war on those who value the respect of their intimacy and that don’t want to share everything they do on THEIR computer. I have no problem with optional features like this if they are optional, even better if you can use them while subscribing to not storing the searches after you have done them. I understand they might be great to some people, but if I don’t want that, please respect my choice.

 

 

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Cascadian, Noel Carboni, Rock, wdburt1, Sessh, Microfix, Elly, flackcatcher, Ascaris

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That’s a bit harsh

at least the latest version will have prior versions fixes, without having to install huge CU

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abbodi86 wrote:

That’s a bit harsh at least the latest version will have prior versions fixes, without having to install huge CU

Correct but, by introducing new useless ‘Features‘ opens the door for even bigger CU’s to correct/ mitigate security flaws further down the timeline.

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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seamonkey420, Elly

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I can’t believe you can sell such half-baked product in terms of the GUI. Most of W10 screenshots with a few windows open look horrendous – Fluent Design, some Metro, then even older MS interface – all mixed together. Imagine Apple doing something like that to Mac OS.

I actually like Fluent Design and Metro wasn’t bad either. But just focus on one of them and overhaul the WHOLE system. Now it looks… odd, to say the least.

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This is still in alpha but may be a way forward if (a big if) it’s developed properly

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-10-apps-on-an-open-source-os-reactos-gains-experimental-support-for-latest-windows-software/

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Elly

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AlexEiffel wrote:

Should there be a group of people devising some kind of idealistic pledge of privacy that some software developers could adhere to?

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (from their About page):

“… is the leading nonprofit organization defending civil liberties in the digital world. Founded in 1990, EFF champions user privacy, free expression, and innovation through impact litigation, policy analysis, grassroots activism, and technology development. We work to ensure that rights and freedoms are enhanced and protected as our use of technology grows.”

I don’t know that they have developed a pledge for developers, but they have carefully thought through issues and make recommendations for individuals and specific situations.

Non-techy Win 10 Pro and Linux Mint experimenter

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Cascadian, AlexEiffel, wdburt1, Microfix

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The lack of ‘disable web search’ in W10 Pro is a big faux pas!

Can you imagine the scenario..it just took me fifty days to find a file on our computer after searching the entire internet before our PC.

ROTFL

IIRC didn’t something like this happen in WinXP?

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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I did my first programming in Fortran IV in the mid 60’s. Got my first IBM PC with DOS in 1982. Was the ‘software librarian’ for the Pacific Northwest IBM PC Users Group for several years. I’ve used and loved Microsoft operating systems for many decades.

Oh, there’s the rub! From DOS through Windows 8.1 it definitely was an OS.

Now it’s a TARGS: Tracking, Advertising, Revenue Generating System — at least for the non-enterprise users…… sigh.

Win10 Pro x64 22H2, Win10 Home 22H2, Linux Mint + a cat with 'tortitude'.

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Cascadian, seamonkey420, Microfix, Noel Carboni

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Actually, the snooping and tracking in Windows isn’t new and was already implemented in the Windows XP days. There’s no difference today and non-enterprise users can lock down their machines as well. Sure, Bing-bot Cortana and other ‘soooo cool’ features won’t work any longer.

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Steven, you definitely get it.

-Noel

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@woody

another problem with the 17134 build was recently discovered which may further delay the upcoming release. story on this Neowin page:
https://www.neowin.net/news/another-windows-10-bug-in-build-17134-may-again-delay-the-april-2018-update

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woody wrote:

Diagnostic Data Viewer is nice but, ultimately, not very useful for normal people. What we need is a big “Telemetry Off” switch. Instead, we get little snooping enhancements like killing “Disable Web Search.”

OMG! so much of this!!!! all of these feature updates.. pointless.. every single one introduces major bugs, app compatibility and just device driver breakage..   is Microsoft both deaf and blind in not seeing how much backlash they are getting from real geeks/IT depts/sysadmins?  just let me stay on 1607 and get security patches; zero * given about stupid timeline or ARSO.. what is windows trying macos now?   /RANT

also.. woody, love this blog! you say it how it is and how we feel!

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AlexEiffel wrote:

Right now, it should be clear that there could be two paths for this. Those excited by novelty could beta test Windows as much as they want and improve Windows every six months, adding, changing, removing things based on feedback while the rest of us wait for some less frequent updates. {…}

I have no problem with optional features like this if they are optional, even better if you can use them while subscribing to not storing the searches after you have done them. I understand they might be great to some people, but if I don’t want that, please respect my choice.

TLDR – go back to how we did it in Windows 7 days. let the consumers run ‘beta’ builds of the OS but if a company has paid for and deployed Enterprise edition of Windows; we can opt out of all feature update and just get security updates.  why is it so **** hard for them to understand this; workstations down = loss productivity = revenue losses.  plus, the QCing at microsoft is ****… fix a bug this month, forget next month to refix it in the next CU… sure wish linux was feasible for enterprise.

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