Microsoft confirms bug triggering bluescreens in Win10 HP computers

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Toldja so…. The problem with WDF_VIOLATION bluescreens in HP computers after installing the latest Win10 1803 or 1809 cumulative updates isn’t, exac
[See the full post at: Microsoft confirms bug triggering bluescreens in Win10 HP computers]

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Elly, Great Lake Bunyip, abbodi86, WildBill, Elrod, Microfix, satrow, GreatAndPowerfulTech

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And, to top it all off, Microsoft has just increased the price of Windows 10 Home by US$20, to $139. Now customers can enjoy the privilege of paying more for all this stability goodness.

 

Keep Running Windows 7 Safely for Years to Come  
Make Windows 10 look and work like Windows 7

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So we’re clear, that’s just the boxed retail version of Windows 10 Home.  The prices they charge OEM’s didn’t go up.

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According to this PCWorld article, the “assistive technology” loophole was closed on Jan. 16: https://www.pcworld.com/article/3247661/windows/microsoft-is-shutting-down-its-free-upgrade-from-windows-81-to-windows-10-in-24-hours.html. Do any VIP’s or Loungers know if M$ finally followed through, or if it’s still available? The article has a link to Microsoft’s AT site, but that no longer features a big “Upgrade Now” button: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/accessibility

Bought a refurbished Windows 10 64-bit, currently updated to 22H2. Have broke the AC adapter cord going to the 8.1 machine, but before that, coaxed it into charging. Need to buy new adapter if wish to continue using it.
Wild Bill Rides Again...

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Still working, and it even got exploited without the need to upgrade from Win 7/8.1 or even the need to have valid prior license

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This is what I infer as tacit admission by Microsoft of either or both of two statements.

• The quality is low enough to require a free method to acquire the product.

 

MS wants a maximal number of testers.

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HiFlyer

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Both.

-- rc primak

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Microfix, HiFlyer

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I just don’t understand why Microsoft…why they don’t test.

FTFY.

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Once again, it’s best to avoid any MS drivers (where possible) and stick with OEM device drivers, irrespective of what the target device is. Just because it’s a newer version thrown down the chutes of WU, doesn’t mean it’s the most stable for your hardware. Hide it in WU, then look for updated OEM drivers is my advice.

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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BobbyB, GoneToPlaid, JCCWsusser

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Moreover, drivers offered through Windows Update sometimes are older than the non-WHQL certified drivers which you installed from your OEM’s web site. In this case, installing the driver offered via Windows Update can lead to regressions for bugs which were fixed by the OEM’s later yet non-WHQL certified drivers, or can cause other strange issues.

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Why did Microsoft bbothered to acknowledge this?It’s such a small subset of the affected clientele that they shouldn’t have bothered for this percent of a percent of a percent.

Nothing to see here, all is working as planned. Carry on and get back to work with Cortana.

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Dunno about that. I’m seeing a wide swath of corporate HP users getting bluescreened.

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Elly, HiFlyer, GreatAndPowerfulTech, Microfix, WildBill

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I’m curious as to why corporate environments are allowing Microsoft to install driver updates….. and releasing updates so quickly.

Red Ruffnsore

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HP is pretty much tied with Lenovo as the world’s largest manufacturer of computers.  Almost 15,000,000 units sold in the last 3 months.  Maybe you don’t see them in your environment, but they’re definitely out there in large numbers.

This is a big deal.

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Elly, HiFlyer, rc primak, lurks about, BobbyB, GreatAndPowerfulTech, Microfix, woody

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Over at El Reg some forum users have mentioned audio being affected (ie no audio) for some Lenovo, Asus, HP computers with the latest Win10 1809 bug “fix”. No models nor precise build number mentioned though it’s implied to be 17763.55.

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woody

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I got a tweet talking about that. Looking for more details.

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I’ve seen a lot of reports about the audio issues, but this seems to be the most official acknowledgement I’ve seen thus far: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/matthew_van_eerde/2018/10/12/if-windows-update-sent-you-intel-audio-controller-version-9-21-0-3755-by-mistake-uninstall-it/

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b

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So to be clear, this is the result of another MS Update pushing a different driver onto those machines. Is that the gist?

-- rc primak

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Yes:

“An Intel audio driver was incorrectly pushed to devices via Windows Update for a short period of time earlier this week. After receiving reports from users that their audio no longer works, we immediately removed it and started investigating. If your audio broke recently, and you’re running Windows 10 version 1803 or above, please check to see if the incorrect driver was installed. To regain audio, we recommend you uninstall the driver. (Intel Smart Sound Technology driver version 09.21.00.3755)”

[Quoted from the above blog entry by a Senior Software Engineer on the Windows Audio team.]

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Microfix, Elly, woody

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Apparently Microsoft published updates to address the HP and audio driver issues: https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/9o4dg5/microsoft_addresses_hp_devices_and_intel_audio/

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rc primak, woody

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Note this comment:

I manually installed 8544 and then Microsoft pushes this update, which puts me on 8549 (Realtek drivers).

Welp, guess what the updater does after checking for an update? Now it downloads 8475! It reverted my audio driver for literally no reason.

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Had a friend also say to me yesterday that after his computer automagically updated, the audio wasn’t working anymore.

John in Mtl

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@anonymous apparently its a common problem try this link for your friend: https://winaero.com/blog/fix-no-audio-issue-windows-10-version-1809/ this guy normally is spot on with his fix’s

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Microfix

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Pushing drivers is one of the nasties Windows 10 de-features

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Elly, woody, Fred, Microfix

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I think pushing drivers is a big mistake on the part of MS. There is too much diversity in the hardware that runs Windows for this to work all the time. It is bound to cause problems.

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Elly, Ascaris, geekdom

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I think MS pushing drivers is part of their overall tactic (the bigger picture) to kill Windows in favor of Cloud Computing and W10 is just the stepping stone toward this. Remember these actions CAN be reversed should MS wish to do so but, not how most would want it to be.

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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Either that, or they are trying to force conformity, much like Apple has conformity. If they can dictate all of the rules, their development and support costs will be a lot lower. It’s possible that that is what they are moving toward.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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rc primak

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I’m sure you already recognize, but left unsaid, Apple’s conformity stems from the hardware itself. Not just forcing drivers onto hardware that was not under their direct manufacturing controls.

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bknight721

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Their Surface computers have conformity and Microsoft still has serious issues servicing the models.

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Elly, woody

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I disagree. They’ve were pushing updates before talking about Windows as a service. It’s just a poor business decision.

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rc primak

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You can disable driver updates on W10 machines via windows update group policy and via device installation settings on a standalone computer.

Red Ruffnsore

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rc primak, columbia2011, Fred, Microfix

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Additionally, I have an all-Intel PC. There’s a good GUI/Browser utility for checking with Intel for driver updates. If MS Update or a Feature Update replaces a Genuine Intel driver with one of their own Windows 10 generic drivers, I get notified and updated from the manufacturer’s source. I have yet to see a Windows 10 driver with a higher version number than a Genuine Intel driver for the same hardware. But one never knows…

-- rc primak

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HiFlyer

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I just don’t understand why Microsoft insists on pushing drivers — and why they don’t test their pushed cumulative updates with their pushed drivers.

Oh, you very well know, we don’t do that.

What I don’t understand is… from Kb article:

Microsoft has identified an HP driver with known incompatibility with certain HP devices… HP is actively working on this issue.

Ms replaced a perfectly fine running HP OEM driver with their own Ms “Standard 101/102 keyboard driver” that failed and now “HP is working on this issue”?

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HiFlyer, rc primak, Chronocidal Guy

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Ms replaced a perfectly fine running HP OEM driver with their own Ms “Standard 101/102 keyboard driver”

I think probably the opposite.

The PCs that were subject to this issue probably used the standard MS driver for the keyboard, or else they had an HP proprietary driver, but not the version provided by MS.  Windows Update saw that there was a more specific driver than the generic one, or a newer HP driver than the old one, either of which will trigger the system to update the driver if you were to, say, go to Device Manager and tell it to update the driver.  Which, of course, is not what any of these users did (key point!)

I can sort of see the point from Microsoft’s perspective, even though I do think their willy-nilly replacement of installed drivers is a terrible idea.  If the driver in question is marked as a Windows 10 driver for the device ID (a string that uniquely identifies the hardware device) of the component in question, it would be reasonable to think that it will work.

For example, if my keyboard has a device ID of VEN_103C&DEV_0900 and I am running Windows 10, and the driver INF describes it as being for VEN_103C&DEV_0900 under Windows 10, but it doesn’t actually work, that would seem to be a problem with the driver.  The code to exclude incompatible devices (even if it does match the device ID) needs to be in there somewhere.

What it seems like happened (speculating here) is that HP used the same PCI ID for keyboards in several models, but only some of those models require/ can tolerate the driver in question. Thus, the presence of the “correct” keyboard and the “correct” OS is not enough to establish that the driver is appropriate.  Somehow, that code to prevent installation of the driver on incompatible models (perhaps either a blacklist of known incompatible models, or a whitelist of known compatible ones) was evidently excluded from the version of the driver MS distributed.

If HP goofed that bit up when they supplied the driver to MS, knowing that MS will push that driver out to any PC that matches the driver’s requirements, they’re at fault here.  So is MS, of course, for the heavy-handed way Windows 10 handles drivers.  Drivers can be thorny things, and if a given device is working well and there’s no specific reason to update the driver, it’s usually best to leave it be rather than update it just because there happens to be a new one available.

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HiFlyer, rc primak

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Not opposite, as reported in another post:

The device name in Device Manager now says “Standard 101/102 Key or Microsoft Natural PS/2 keyboard for HP Hotkey Support”.

Read elsewhere that reinstalling HP driver solved the issue.

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Ascaris, rc primak

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Thanks for the info, but I think we’re not in sync on the nomenclature here.  These are the terms as I used them:

The HP driver that came with the computer (if any) is an OEM driver.  So is the HP driver from the HP web site, or the HP driver distributed by Microsoft.  It’s still a HP driver regardless of how it gets on the PC (and HP is the OEM, so it’s therefore an OEM driver).

Even if it has a similar name to the Microsoft driver, if you go to Device Manager and it says it was sourced by HP, it’s not Microsoft’s own driver.  It is a HP driver, though possibly one that was distributed with Windows or by Windows update.  Most of the device-specific drivers in Windows are of this type.

Microsoft’s own driver would be a generic driver that applies to most keyboards, which is the best choice for most systems, generally.  It’s what all of my PCs used in Windows, including laptops with extended key functions.  Well, actually, my Asus laptop did come with a keyboard filter driver, but I never installed it when I removed the factory Windows installation (Vista) and replaced it with my own (XP), and everything worked without it, including all of the special functions, so I never installed it.  As a filter driver, I believe that this driver would be installed along with the existing keyboard driver, not in place of it, but I am not certain on that.  Given that everything worked without it, I have no idea what it was meant to do.

If Windows was replacing the OEM HP driver with its own “Ms “Standard 101/102 keyboard driver”,” it nearly certainly wouldn’t be bluescreening, given that the real MS drivers are by far the most heavily tested by MS, and are thus nearly always rock-stable (to the point that most guides that describe using the driver verifier to locate a faulty driver advise excluding all MS drivers from the test), but it also wouldn’t allow whatever extra functionality was in the HP driver.

If this was what was happening, it would not have anything to do with HP, and it wouldn’t be up to HP to fix, and MS has already said that HP is working on the issue, so it’s not this.  If it was, it would be a case of Windows wrongfully installing a generic driver in place of a device-specific one, which is in the reverse of the normal prioritization, and it would be up to MS to fix.

The HP driver installed by Windows in question is cited as causing the bluescreens.  Therefore, three possible cases exist:

1. The system originally had the generic MS driver, but Windows installed the HP driver that caused the BSOD in its place; or

2. The system originally had a HP OEM driver, but Windows installed the newer HP OEM driver that caused the BSOD in its place; or

3. The HP driver that caused a BSOD was a filter driver and was installed in addition to the existing keyboard driver.

Case 3 does not seem to fit all we’ve read about the issue so far, so it seems like we can tentatively scratch that off the list.   Edit: From what I’ve read at The Register, it appears that it actually is a filter driver, so I am guessing it installs along with the existing driver, not replacing anything (except the previous version of the driver that may have been working).

Case 1 is the opposite of what you initially said, which is what I meant when I wrote that.  If the driver in question does not replace the MS driver, this one isn’t it.

 

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It’s case 2…

2. The system originally had a HP OEM driver, but Windows installed the newer HP OEM driver that caused the BSOD in its place

Timeline…
System is working fine with HP OEM driver.
Microsoft push updates and driver.
System falls into a BSOD state
Remove new “Standard 101/102 etc.” driver and all’s fine
Microsoft withdraw pushed updates and driver
tbc…

Link

Btw. it’s far from first time pushed drivers bricks fine running systems.
And won’t be the last either…

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Ascaris

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Woody and many others suggest not getting any drivers from Microsoft, and it doesn’t look like that’s set to change.  Back when MS used to ask you before installing them (pre-10, of course), you could just say “Thanks but no thanks, MS, I’m good,” but with 10, especially Home, all the choices are made for you.

I just remembered my own little story with MS-supplied drivers.  I had a Silverstone USB 3.0 5.25″ card reader in my desktop PC (same one I am using now to write this).  I was using, I think, Windows 7 at the time.  I noticed that Windows Update had found a driver for Brand_X card reader, where Brand_X was something other than Silverstone.  Probably the actual OEM before Silverstone put their name on it, I guessed.  I decided to see what it was about, so I let it install.

It updated the icons in Windows Explorer to reflect the kind of card I had inserted, where before it had just had a generic “removable media” icon.  Not terribly important, as I knew what kind of card I had inserted, but kind of a nice touch, if it worked.

Which it really didn’t.

I started having problems with the card reader failing to work or some nonsense.  It’s been a few years, so I don’t remember the exact details, but I know it was a real pain.  I rolled back the driver, and all was well again (for about another year, when the card reader itself died).

If it had bluescreened as with the HP driver, I would have taken diagnostic steps like looking at the bugcheck dumps, and it probably would have pointed me to the card reader.  If not, I would remember having installed the driver, since I had manually given it the OK, and reversing recent changes is one of the first steps in this kind of thing.  I could also have used the driver verifier, but I doubt it would have gotten that far… the previous steps almost certainly would have sufficed.

As is often the case, I am not really concerned as much about the people who have the ability to fix things like this, since they’re relatively easy fixes to people who know of such things, but for the people who don’t live and breathe computers, the same people MS is supposedly serving by taking all of the choices out of their hands, are likely to be thrown for a loop by nonsense like this.  The non-techie user probably would not be aware that the driver had even been installed, since MS doesn’t bother to ask, and you have to take affirmative steps to see what Windows Update is doing (and if you don’t, it just does it).

With techie types greatly favoring the Pro version of Windows 10, or else just avoiding 10 in general, it suggests that the people left using Home version of 10 would mostly consist of the less techie-type users– and it’s the Home version that gets the worst of what WaaS has to offer.  The users least capable of recovering from a mishap like this are the ones most likely to encounter one, and MS not only knows this, but is using it as a money-saving strategy.  It’s despicable, really.

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Let me just add that driver updates are especially thorny on systems with SoC (System on a Chip) drivers. These act like a single Device Image such as Android ROMs on phones. I had an ASUS 2-in-1 which needed the SoC and audio drivers to be reinstalled every time MS Update or a Feature Update would push out single-targeted, but otherwise genuine ASUS, drivers. It was so bad that I kept the SoC installer from ASUS permanently archived in the 2-in-1’s backups. My device was 32-bits, so I eventually stopped using it and gave it to my sister. I think it’s sitting in her house to this day unused since the 1709 upgrade.

-- rc primak

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Here are a few helpful device driver related links for those interested:

https://pureinfotech.com/stop-windows-10-installing-drivers-automatically/

https://www.maketecheasier.com/disable-driver-updates-windows/

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-properly-update-device-drivers-windows-10

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/find-replace-outdated-windows-drivers/

Amazing Truths Revealed: Link to Simply Magnificent AskWoody Knowledge Bases

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woody

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Microsoft has very little hardware they are totally responsible for maintaining (let’s not mention phones), and even those drivers can go wonky with an update. Not all Apple devices are immune either, but with all their different models their track record is much, much better. Neither actually manufactures their individual parts, assembly of final product at most.

Just imagine, Intel making the chipset, CPU, LAN, sound, video, buyout/merge with memory producer, and then make their own OS? What could go wrong? They probably could have years ago, but they won’t. It’s a nightmare when there’s nobody left to blame.

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This is exactly what Google does with their Chromebooks. And guess what — I have never had a ChromeOS update mess up my ASUS Chromebook. The manufacturer must comply with Google’s hardware standards, but all else is pretty generic Intel components. In fact, Fedora Linux runs pretty well on the same Chromebook, except for the internal speakers’ audio feed. No Linux driver for that, as yet.

So it can be done. Apple generally has few driver update issues as well, for much the same reason. If anything, Apple is not strict enough in insisting on compliance with its hardware and driver standards.

-- rc primak

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No doubt the thing that Microsoft laughingly names its ‘testing lab’ does not include every make and model of PC, laptop, phone etc with every possible combination of peripheral hardware.

As third party drivers historically caused a lot of our BSOD issues, so do drivers cause issues.

To me, the shortcoming is not in the testing but is that Microsoft decided to delivers drivers via update.  Would it not be better for update to check the configuration of the PC first and if new drivers are available, recommend the user update the driver via the manufacturer’s website. That way, drivers are sourced from the correct location and flack from faulty driver updates goes to the manufacturer.

 

 

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Microsoft to business: Don’t worry about Windows 10, consumers will test it
https://www.computerworld.com/article/2878026/microsoft-to-business-dont-worry-about-windows-10-consumers-will-test-it.html

“Microsoft fired all those testers last year,” pointed out Wes Miller, an analyst with Directions on Microsoft, in a Friday interview. “Now consumers are the testers.”

Microsoft Bug Testers Unionized. Then They Were Dismissed
https://www.askwoody.com/2018/bloomberg-businessweek-microsoft-bug-testers-unionized-then-they-were-dismissed/

Four years ago, Boucher says, he hoped to force Microsoft to improve working conditions for the Lionbridge temps, who were testing apps at a Microsoft office in Washington state. In 2015, after the union was formed, Microsoft began requiring Lionbridge and other contractors to provide workers with at least three weeks of annual paid time off. But the union’s negotiations with Lionbridge broke down, and in 2016 the contractor told Boucher and his colleagues it planned to lay off some of them in response to reduced demand from Microsoft. After making concessions to secure a contract that would at least offer severance pay, the union members learned the layoffs would actually include all of them.

That’s the whole point, they just can’t care less about testing as long as consumers are getting the short end of the stick. In other words, their customers are actually paying them to become their beta testers. Why would they even bother to test anything on their own when it’s all about crowdsourced testing these days? This is like totally unprecedented, the lab owner is somehow receiving payments ($139 a pop now) from whole bunch of lab rats.

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HP Zbook 17 workstation c.2014, Win7 Pro x64.

HP sends e-mail alerts to business-grade users. Have been dodging anything remotely smelling of Win10 for a while.

Around 18 months ago there was a mouse driver update which plugged a security hole in the prior driver version which I’d installed at some point. I tried the latest fixed driver and had periodic freezes. Must have been optimized for Win10.

Business support researched my model and discovered that the original mouse driver was just fine and hadn’t the security flaw. They walked me through reverting to that old driver.

M$ however, is still pushing the driver version which freezes in Win7 on my optional recommended list when I check WU. Somebody needs to get MS under control…

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I’d argue there is a use case for pushing drivers. But only when you need a new driver for an update or upgrade. Or if the driver opens up some sort of bug and they need to make sure it gets patched for security reasons. But this is rare.

The only driver that tends to actually need maintenance are display drivers, and they do a good job already of getting them to their customers quickly. Having to run them through Microsoft only makes updates slower. There is no reason for Microsoft to be upgrading display drivers, other than possibly downloading the most recent one they have automatically if the machine has no driver.

Microsoft can’t do timely driver updates, so they shouldn’t try. And forcing driver updates when the current ones work is bad.

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I know it confusing a lot of users having both Microsoft provide drivers and OEM PC makers also supplying drivers. Microsoft makes the argument the drivers they push are quality checked and certified. But I’ve experienced instances where they pushed a driver that did not apply to the PC model. But I also know many PC makers seem to be lazy about updating drivers especially on older or discontinued models. You should also be aware that PC makers sometimes end support for a feature release for Windows 10. They list out models tested and so if its not listed they have dropped official support for it. I suspect this may cause problems for certain hardware or drivers that don’t officially work with a new Win 10 release. So be aware it might work or it might not.

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If the hardware doesn’t support the newest Windows 10 Feature Update, the update should not install, and usually it won’t even be offered. If the latest update supported goes out of use, the device is at its End of Life and must be replaced. That’s the New Microsoft.

This really has little to do with the problem of generic drivers being pushed to machines which are running perfectly well with OEM drivers. That should never happen by default. Never.

Driver updates should be opt-in, not opt-out. And off by default. Except maybe the initial install as in only clean or fresh installs. Not to be confused with System Refresh.

-- rc primak

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‘usually’ is the operative word there. I had one device that tried many to install 1709 over 1703. Each time it downloaded the whole package again!

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WSQL certification is required alongside WHQL.

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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Microfix wrote:

WSQL certification is required alongside WHQL.

What’s WSQL? (I can’t find a reference to it anywhere.)

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@b hint: missing dept in MS

Windows Software Quality Labs

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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KB4468550 :

Microsoft released patch for <span style=”color: #000000; font-family: ‘Segoe UI’, SegoeUI, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;”>Intel Smart Sound Technology driver</span>

 

Group A (but Telemetry disabled Tasks and Registry)
1) Dell Inspiron with Win 11 64 Home permanently in dock due to "sorry spares no longer made".
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