Microsoft admits failure on Windows 8

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http://www.marketwatch.com/story/microsoft-admits-failure-on-windows-8-2013-05-07

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What a crock. Let’s see what really changes.

All Microsoft has publicly said is that it is repsonding to feedback. See these two summaries of interviews with Tami Reller, the Windows division CFO – Microsoft: More than 100 million Windows 8 licenses sold[/url] and What Microsoft is now saying (and not) about Windows Blue[/url].

Interpret that as you will.

Joe

--Joe

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This is no real surprise. Several people on this forum including myself predicted that MS would have to do something with the release of what amounts to SP1.

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Windows BLUE????

WHere have I been?? When did M$ start naming their Service Packs something other than Service Packs?

Got anymore links about this BLUE thing? Guess I’ve been under a rock…!

:o)

They should put the start menu back and the desktop. “Charms” (do I got that right? no W8 here) sound like “Gadgets”, so split the screen for Charms and Desktop. Just like on 7. Just like on Vista.

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”Charms” (do I got that right? no W8 here) sound like “Gadgets”

Not really. Charms are four icons which appear in both desktop mode and Metro mode of Windows 8 whenever the mouse pointer is drifted into the top right or bottom right corner of the screen. They appear without the mouse being clicked, which many people find intensely annoying. They invoke some of the housekeeping functions which were previously on the Start menu. To add to the confusion, some of the Charms icons change their behaviour when a Metro app is being run.

Most of the third party utilities which restore the Start button and its menu also provide options to disable the Charms icons.

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Before Windows, I wrote nice, neat little DOS menu’s for my friends and customers.
That’s the way we did things, in 1980. Then Windows entered the scene and a desktop took the place of the old DOS menu’s.

The whole idea of the desktop was having a shortcut to the programs that you need to run on a somewhat regular basis.

So there’s a lot to be said for a neat, clean, desktop, but WHY? If you have to leave the desktop, to run the programs you need, then why have a desktop in the first place?:

This is a DOS menu, for a Floppy Disk.

Admittedly, I don’t do a lot on Windows 8 (XP is my every day OS)
But, here’s my current W8 desktop.

I do hate clutter, so I try to keep the icons off of the center of my desktop, and only around the edges of the screen. When I get too many icons to fit in the border, I create a desktop folder and just call it Extra Stuff and put seldom used icons in there.

I have one 90 year old lady, (customer) who kept forgetting how to get to her solitaire game. I put a shortcut to Sol.exe on her desktop and you’d of thought I gave her a new puppy…..she was tickled silly.
MS had a good idea, when they originally created the desktop and shortcuts.
Just like on a real ‘Desktop’, everything you need to take care of business should be at arms reach.

I’m so Old School, that the very first thing I install on a new W8 setup, is the Classic Shell. Then I can quickly build a working desktop, that closely approximates Windows XP. My OLD customers like that.

Cheers Mates!
The Doctor

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Before Windows, I wrote nice, neat little DOS menu’s for my friends and customers.
That’s the way we did things, in 1980. Then Windows entered the scene and a desktop took the place of the old DOS menu’s.

The whole idea of the desktop was having a shortcut to the programs that you need to run on a somewhat regular basis.

So there’s a lot to be said for a neat, clean, desktop, but WHY? If you have to leave the desktop, to run the programs you need, then why have a desktop in the first place?:

This is a DOS menu, for a Floppy Disk.

Admittedly, I don’t do a lot on Windows 8 (XP is my every day OS)
But, here’s my current W8 desktop.

I do hate clutter, so I try to keep the icons off of the center of my desktop, and only around the edges of the screen. When I get too many icons to fit in the border, I create a desktop folder and just call it Extra Stuff and put seldom used icons in there.

I have one 90 year old lady, (customer) who kept forgetting how to get to her solitaire game. I put a shortcut to Sol.exe on her desktop and you’d of thought I gave her a new puppy…..she was tickled silly.
MS had a good idea, when they originally created the desktop and shortcuts.
Just like on a real ‘Desktop’, everything you need to take care of business should be at arms reach.

I’m so Old School, that the very first thing I install on a new W8 setup, is the Classic Shell. Then I can quickly build a working desktop, that closely approximates Windows XP. My OLD customers like that.

Cheers Mates!
The Doctor

What city is that that you have on your Desktop?

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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What city is that that you have on your Desktop?

That must be the Citadel of Gallifrey, can you not see the Panopticon?

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wow.

so charms are akin to a floating toolbar of a set of 4 buttons that are not standardized per the current application?

what?!

I think I’m pretty happy I haven’t upgraded to 8 then…

can you link to a screenshot example? do the icons’ appearance change to denote the function changed?

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wow.

so charms are akin to a floating toolbar of a set of 4 buttons that are not standardized per the current application?

what?!

I think I’m pretty happy I haven’t upgraded to 8 then…

can you link to a screenshot example? do the icons’ appearance change to denote the function changed?

Here, watch the video from our Windows 8 resources:

http://windowssecrets.com/forums/showthread//151533-The-Missing-Windows-8-Instructional-Video

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can you link to a screenshot example?[/quote]
Here’s one: http://cloud.addictivetips.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Windows-8-Charms-Bar-Settings1.png
The charms are the five icons in the rightmost column – Search, Share, Start, Device and Settings. (Sorry, there are five of them, not four as wrongly I said before.)

do the icons’ appearance change to denote the function changed?

Good question. I don’t know, but given Metro’s reputation for not providing any visual clues to help users I doubt it.

There’s a description of the Charms icons here:
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-windows-8-charms-bar-and-its-hidden-shortcuts.html

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It is not a surprise at all. Just go back and look at when the first service packs were released for XP, Vista, & Win7.

XP was released August, 2001. SP1 was released September, 2002.
Vista was released to retail January 2007. SP1 was released February 2008.
Win7 was released to retail October 2009. SP1 was released February 2011.

With the exception of XP SP-2 service packs do not contain new features. They contain support for new hardware and a rollup of various updates.

What is a surprise is that Microsoft is expected to add new features in this release. Microsoft is not calling this a service pack but an update. That may be splitting hairs at the moment but it may also signal a change in approach. Microsoft appears to be changing to a more frequent release schedule across all their products. As yet, they have not publicly committed to an annual schedule. In the second article to which I linked in post 2, Ms. Reller says “You shouldn’t assume we won’t be doing this yearly… or that we will”.

Note also that Microsoft have not said whether this will be chargable or not.

Joe

--Joe

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thank you for the posts on the charm bar.

sounds like a positively useless piece of junk for those on a non-mobile-phone-esque device.

and I also read in a link that the Windows key opens the Start Screen? Is that right? The entire SCREEN changes if you accidentally hit the Windows key??? That sounds even more ridiculous!

I had this vision of a smallish panel appearing with the ‘charms’, not a black bar on the whole side of the screen. Something that could be ignored easily if accidentally triggered… but this sounds like a nightmare. Imagine moving the mouse to undim the screen and triggering the stupid bar. Do on-screen elements ‘re-flow’ as the bar is activated? Does it cover the scroll bar in the active app? Seems like a very dumb addition to Windows on a full PC… mobile device, why not? but never on a full PC… power users on smallish machines will grind to a halt if that charms bar re-flows the screen… and touch typists still occasionally hit the wrong key… or people playing pinball games.

if I had W8, seems like I would want to rip off my Win-key.

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880, hi !
Looks like you do not even run W-8, that you go on hearsay.

I run W-8 on two of my machines and I like it a lot. It needs a spell to get used to it and any body with a little savvy in this binary world can do this. Have you tried, Can you ?

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880, hi !
Looks like you do not even run W-8, that you go on hearsay.

I run W-8 on two of my machines and I like it a lot. It needs a spell to get used to it and any body with a little savvy in this binary world can do this. Have you tried, Can you ?

W8 took me about 5 minutes to get used to — that was about how long it took me to load StartIsBack.

The Charms are pretty easy to ignore. In fact, I don’t mind having them. I really want to get used to dealing with them, because I’ll have to deal with them when working on someone else’s Windows 8 PC.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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W8 took me about 5 minutes to get used to — that was about how long it took me to load StartIsBack.

Going by that statement alone, I think it would be far more accurate for you to say it took 5 minutes to find a replacement Start button like StartIsBack so that you could actually begin to use Windows 8 and then go about learning how to use the default Touch Screen interface it boots into, which on a desktop without a touch screen and connected with Keyboard and Mouse, is about as useful as Teats are on a Bull. Microsoft’s biggest mistake since the initial release of Vista imo and that’s saying something!

The Charms are pretty easy to ignore.

I actually agree with that comment.

In fact, I don’t mind having them.

Heh.. you’ve lost me again. I dislike them because they keep appearing purely because I might happen to move my mouse pointer to that area of the screen. Yes, I know you can turn them off – but the point of the exercise for me is to keep the machine in a configuration others using Windows 8 for the first time will have who might want help.

Are you suggesting that when working on someone else’s Windows 8 PC your first suggestion is going to be to install StartIsBack or similar? Come now.. That’s no worse than my having sent out newsletters to hundreds of my business clients, advising them to avoid Windows 8 (in it’s current incarnation) like the plague and just buy machines preloaded with Windows 7 for the time being. Unless of course they want to transfer large amounts of cash from their bank accounts to companies like ours for basic support they’ll almost certainly need, which would be a non issue if they just stick with what isn’t broken for now.

I really want to get used to dealing with them, because I’ll have to deal with them when working on someone else’s Windows 8 PC.

..here we “kind of” agree again. Though if your purpose is to provide technical support to Windows 8 users, then why the installation of a third party utility like StartIsBack? It’s precisely the reason I have NOT put a Start button on my installation. I have a box with Windows 8 Pro configured stock standard as Microsoft intended it to be when it booted up. No start button on my Win8 box at all [That big ugly screen with squares can’t be called a “Start Button” by any stretch of the imagination imo] and after months of using and persisting with it now, I can still say with total honesty that in it’s default configuration, Win8 is [imho] next to totally useless when used without a touch screen and only serves to negatively affect productivity in a huge way.

I (well, the company I work for) has been paid to format the thing out at some small business locations and replace it with Windows 7 already because of software conflicts and the radical changes it introduced in the general GUI which proved to only slow employee performance levels down.. and yes, a couple of them had a third party Start Button utility installed as well. People don’t seem to be willing to spend the cash required to have external IT support reconfigure a brand new computer for their employees just so they can just use their machines with some sort of efficiency again – rather, many opt to pay to go back to what has worked for them perfectly well for years. An expensive lesson learnt for them and a mistake they’re unlikely to make again.

For one thing, the Wireless networking on Win8 remains buggy as hell on some configurations, with many manufacturers (laptop’s for example) being in no hurry to rectify their supposedly already certified drivers with ones that will actually work on existing wireless LAN configurations without having to jump through hoops to make it do so. I could list a ton of other problems with Win8 in business environments, but I’d just be repeating what’s been said in these forums dozens of times already so what’s the point :p

Cheers..

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thank you for the posts on the charm bar. ..[snip].. if I had W8, seems like I would want to rip off my Win-key.

Actually, the Win-Key is probably the most useful thing you can use on Windows 8.. it allows you to quickly move between a Mouse/Keyboard workable desktop and get away from that incredibly ugly default Metro joke they try to call a “Start screen” .. Your Win-Key on your keyboard is the last thing you want to get rid of imo

Cheers…

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I don’t have VT on any of my machines, so I’ve been unable to test W8.

If you know of a way to test it in a VM without VT, please share.

To be honest, I didn’t think I would like W7 either, but so far I like it a lot… (with my sidebar added back in)

and before that, I didn’t think I would like Vista… but I widdled that machine into a beast. (and learned to love the sidebar)

and before that… XP… (retroactively I put a sidebar in)

and 2K…

and ME…

but I KNEW Win98SE would be awesome!

Haha.

so maybe I am simply attached to the sidebar concept and can’t fathom something removing it now..?

or maybe I don’t understand having touch-screen adjustments made when I have no touch-screen PC to want them? the whole ‘panel’ idea I see in the pics and vids seems ridiculous to me. I like my millions of little icons. I can see all of them. I like my sidebar. The Sidebar is where all my ‘active’ stuff goes, not some animated panel on my non-desktop.

maybe I’ll feel different if I ever get to use it… but I don’t think so.

Quick questions. 2 word answers are all that is needed.

does W8 ‘see’ W7 during install and properly leave W7 alone for dual booting?
smallest partition for W8 to install? is 10Gig enough for OS only?

after writing this, you made me realize I hate new stuff until I try it. guess I’m cynical like that…?! Thanks for the lesson

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880, me again.
Your answers : does W8 ‘see’ W7 during install and properly leave W7 alone for dual booting?

I do not think so. Here I did a fresh install, a format of the HD first.

smallest partition for W8 to install? is 10Gig enough for OS only?

In my main machine, I use 36 GBs of a 500 GBs HD, this includes ALL of my apps along with the OS.
All the keepers go to a USB HD, the 36 GBs is all the operating stuff.

No need to delete any of the W-7 stuff, not needed. Brace yourself now, I use this W-8 just like a W-7 machine. All the tiles are gone, the sidebar is still there but I never use it. I use a lot of Win-Key and Q to do any work here. We are all different birds of different feathers, just to say that I will stick with W-8 even if I do not have/use a touch screen. It is just another OS for me. Your use of the sidebar here is done on the Quick Launch. All same-same….I have 23 launchers on it. JP.

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No need to delete any of the W-7 stuff, not needed. Brace yourself now, I use this W-8 just like a W-7 machine. All the tiles are gone, the sidebar is still there but I never use it. I use a lot of Win-Key and Q to do any work here. We are all different birds of different feathers, just to say that I will stick with W-8 even if I do not have/use a touch screen. It is just another OS for me. Your use of the sidebar here is done on the Quick Launch. All same-same….I have 23 launchers on it. JP.

do you have a screenshot of your ‘desktop’?

and my sidebar has a launcher w/30ish icons, a large digital clock, temp sensors, network meter, cpu meter, ram meters, etc, daemon tools controls, volume controls… all onscreen so long as no full screen app is running.

I have this sidebar running in all my machines. It took a few steps for XP to do it, but I did it. Found a gadget 7Sidebar to add sidebar back to 7.

I have a lot of icons on my desktop; got a toolbar in my taskbar for it as well as a ‘desktop 2’ I use for archive. I got rocketdock loaded to work as a special launcher (desktop icons replicated on it so real desktop view is icon-free).

here’s a pic of my desktop
[/url]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

is this type of setup possible easily in W8??

I’m intrigued…

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880, greets.

My desktop is uncluttered to the max, if this is not a misnomer. Hardly anything at all as compared to yours. Here it is :

33893-DT

I am sure that you could do your W-8 as well as your W-7, it takes barely a few minutes as I treated W-8 as just an improvement to W-7 once the touch screen is disregarded. Have fun, I am. JP.

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880, hello gain.
Not wanting to bother you but as you asked for my screen here is my Start one. Simple and uncluttered. I then hit Enter and I am in a simili W-7 medium.

33914-Start

I am having fun.

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I don’t have VT on any of my machines, so I’ve been unable to test W8.

If you know of a way to test it in a VM without VT, please share.

You could install a different hard drive, then install W8 on the new hard drive. In this way, if you don’t like it, you can easily revert back to whatever you currently have simply by swapping hard drives.

To me, it’s pretty amusing how just about everyone has made up their mind about Windows 8 without actually having tried it. I was in that category. I then put a spare hard drive in an extra computer and installed Windows 8 on it. As I dig around and find where stuff is, I actually am liking Windows 8.

I know that there’s no start button. But there is Windows Explorer. Therefore, it’s easy to make shortcuts to whatever you want to run.

To me, Windows 8 has a more solid feel to it than previous versions of Windows. Add to that my IBM click keyboard, and so far, at this early stage, Windows 8 is looking good to me.

Hopefully, as I dig in more, I won’t eat those words!

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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A thought here – Blue will almost certainly make some very significant changes, perhaps even as far as completely removing Metro and the Charms on computers, so IMHO it might not be worth investing the time and effort to learn Windows 8 in its current form unless you have a pressing requirement to do so.

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In order to leave Win 7 alone during a dual boot installation you would legally have to have a full version of Win 8, not an Upgrade version.

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Hi Medico..

In order to leave Win 7 alone during a dual boot installation you would legally have to have a full version of Win 8, not an Upgrade version.

That’s a pretty bold statement you’ve made there. Do you have a link to a ruling in a court of law to support that theory? Note that a EULA (in legal terms) is nothing than a guide to what the developer wants until it’s content is tested in a court of law by someone with deep enough pockets to do so.

Cheers…

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You can probably get it to be mostly like Win 7 Ben, been there, done that, sidebar replacement works just fine, but overall there is less adjustment possible, you might be happy with it, might not. The real question is if you aren’t interested in touch and start screens, why go though any extra trouble just to make it look and perform just like Win 7? Rock solid performance and support for 7 years yet vs. a special needs OS if you don’t like it the way it is.

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there’s a sidebar replacement with gadgets on 8???

Hmmm… I’m really really pondering attempting a double boot 7 & 8… if I do, I’ll make a thread about it.

Thanks for all the responses and infos!

I am put off by W8 because of all the apps I’ve seen to make it like normal Windows… but as ya’ll have made me realize, you won’t know until you give it an honest try. Thank you for that particular lesson, thought I was ‘beyond’ that…

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Microsoft has not admitted failure. They are trying very hard not to admit it. Instead they are “Listening to user feedback”.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/08/microsoft_coke_moment_windows_8/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/08/microsoft_metro_analysis/

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“Metro-first Maoism” might be a bit strong, but I like it.

Microsoft doesn’t really have to admit to anything except that they put the pieces of the puzzle together wrong. Simplify, decouple and offer choice.

Ok folks who want the efficiency and power of a large screen desktop, here ya go complete with optional start MENU. For those who want an integrated touch approach across a variety of devices, here you go. Start screen is a menu item or taskbar icon and desktop switch continues to be a tile for those who want simple interchangeability. Done. Additionally Microsoft could offer subsidized package deals for devices and phone plans, they have plenty of resources to give this new idea of theirs a much better shot at success that they did so far.

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Hooray – now just get rid of the ‘Ribbon’ menu system and Windows is properly usable again!

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Well…besides all the other stuff mentioned and not, I don’t prefer the ribbon myself, but at least I can see that as a proper preference. I mean, Microsoft doesn’t have a screw loose with the ribbon even though the settings are those that one would set once and never touch again in general, while the more oft toggled ones still remain well hidden.

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One of the features that I have used extensively in Windows 7 that was improved further in Win8 is the Taskbar. I like a completely (or nearly so) uncluttered desktop so I place all my frequently used program and command start icons in the Taskbar. I further minimize screen clutter by using the Autohide setting for the Taskbar to hide it except when I move my mouse pointer to the bottom of the screen when it pops up. I end up with a Desktop with only one or two icons on it and the whole screen is available to show either the empty Desktop or whatever program I want to run full screen.

The Taskbar in Win7 wouldn’t allow every program icon to be placed on it. Win8 seems to allow anything. When you start on the new Start screen in Win 8 you can pick just about any of the tiles and select to have the equivalent icon placed on the Taskbar. Then you can remove them from the Start screen and reduce the clutter of that. You can easily remove any tiles you don’t use anyway and group tiles into whatever groups make sense for you by dragging them around.

The Windows key, BTW, acts as a toggle between the Desktop and Start menu or you can use it in conjunction with other keys to perform various functions.

Finally, a lot of people say you need a touch screen to use Win8. I find that I can do everything I want with just a mouse with absolutely no problems. You need to learn a couple of new mouse movements but that’s all. I bought a touchpad device made for Win8 so I could take advantage of touch but find that I never need to turn it on.

The more I use Win8 the more I like it. I was a Win7 user from its beta days and loved it. I never liked the performance and instability of XP. I find I like Win8 even more. I have also felt no need to install one of these programs that recreates the Start button. I find that other than one extra key touch at system startup, I can stay in Desktop mode all day if I need to and do everything I ever did in 7 just as easily and efficiently. YMMV.

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Doc, I use Fences from Stardock, that way I can group all my video programs, image programs, utilities, and non video/image productivity programs separately, AND hide them unless I mouse over them to reveal a group. Don’t know if it works on Win8 yet though, I’m using it on XP and Win7; it does a good little old utility called Iconoid one better.

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Finally, a lot of people say you need a touch screen to use Win8.

Most of the pundits say one needs touch for Win8 to make sense, not to use. I can go sit in my boat and have a beer but it doesn’t make sense until I’m in the boat, in a lake, with the beer.

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I solved the start menu button problem by installing the free version of startmenux. Now the most annoying problem I have with Windows 8 is that any program run as a app runs at full screen. So if I am trying to compare two pdf files side by side I cannot do that in Windows 8 because I am unable to resize the app to only display in one half of the screen. Also when I open one file in the Reader App and then select another file in the Reader App the first file is closed. Thus I can’t use the Alt-Tab to jump back & forth between the two files.

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You can run two apps side by side. See this for how to do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azTlSx3Mv3Q

Plus, you can always install a Desktop .pdf reader and do it the way you always have in older versions of Windows.

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JazzGuyy
You can run two apps side by side. See this for how to do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azTlSx3Mv3Q

Thanks for the tip although this does not solve my problem with only being able to use one instance of the Reader App.

Best regards,

Pancho Villa

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That’s why I have never cared much for many of Microsoft’s built-in apps. I usually install something else.

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Windows 8 may be the best version of Windows ever; however, they they simply got it wrong on the regular PC version. The default settings are OK if you happen to have a touch-screen monitor. Zillions of us do NOT have a touch-screen monitor and Microsoft should have launched Windows 8 for PCs with a more mouse-and-keyboard friendly appearance and more familiar items like a Start button. It ain’t rocket science, just common sense!

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The thing is that it only looks like you need a touch screen in Win8 PC version. I have found I can do anything and everything with a mouse and keyboard. I can click on tiles, click on an image of the Desktop to get to it or use the Windows key, use keyboard shortcuts to do a lot of different things, merely start typing to search and many other things. Once on the desktop, it’s just like Windows 7 except for access to a few things which is quite easy via the Charms bar, once you understand what it is and how it works.

The problem is that Microsoft made it look like you needed a touch screen for Win8 when you really don’t. The biggest failing with the OS is Microsoft’s failure to explain the different ways it can be used and to provide simple instructions for old-time Windows users as to how to work with the interface changes without having to learn everything all over or get a touch screen or touchpad. There are a couple of new mouse movements and key combinations that are useful to learn but they could all be learned in an hour or less if MS had shown people how. I had to do some research and spend several hours just experimenting before I could do everything.

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The problem is that Microsoft made it look like you needed a touch screen for Win8 when you really don’t.

No, JazzGuyy: the problem is that Microsoft made things that people have become used to since Windows 95 harder to do – ESPECIALLY on first approach – and that it did so unnecessarily. Microsoft took the attitude (despite loud and clear warnings beforehand) that customers would put up with this and ‘get with the program’, whereas a large portion of the customer base is now saying “We’ve already got a Windows version that works the way we want it to and we’ll just stick with it, thank you very much.”

I seriously doubt that there’s ANYONE here who is incapable of using Win 8 as shipped without anything resembling a steep learning curve save possibly in a few obscure corner cases: many of us are just really annoyed that Microsoft took it for granted that we’d accept its ‘take it or leave it’ attitude when it could instead have made the transition an extremely smooth one with essentially no additional effort on its part. That’s the kind of annoyance that doesn’t tend to fade with time or familiarity, as Microsoft has learned over the past 6 months. Whether they’ve learned the right lessons, though, is yet to be determined.

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No, JazzGuyy: the problem is that Microsoft made things that people have become used to since Windows 95 harder to do – ESPECIALLY on first approach – and that it did so unnecessarily. Microsoft took the attitude (despite loud and clear warnings beforehand) that customers would put up with this and ‘get with the program’, whereas a large portion of the customer base is now saying “We’ve already got a Windows version that works the way we want it to and we’ll just stick with it, thank you very much.”

I seriously doubt that there’s ANYONE here who is incapable of using Win 8 as shipped without anything resembling a steep learning curve save possibly in a few obscure corner cases: many of us are just really annoyed that Microsoft took it for granted that we’d accept its ‘take it or leave it’ attitude when it could instead have made the transition an extremely smooth one with essentially no additional effort on its part. That’s the kind of annoyance that doesn’t tend to fade with time or familiarity, as Microsoft has learned over the past 6 months. Whether they’ve learned the right lessons, though, is yet to be determined.

I must be one of the incapable because I’ve been using Windows 8 as shipped. It’s not hard.:)

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I must be one of the incapable because I’ve been using Windows 8 as shipped.

Dear me – someone here really seems to object to my pointing out that your response above clearly indicates that you did not understand the material to which you were responding. This time I didn’t even receive the courtesy of a notification that my post had been removed, let alone any explanation for why that was done, so until I get one I’ll just keep replying to see whether revised wording makes any difference.

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I seriously doubt that there’s ANYONE here who is incapable of using Win 8 as shipped without anything resembling a steep learning curve save possibly in a few obscure corner cases: many of us are just really annoyed that Microsoft took it for granted that we’d accept its ‘take it or leave it’ attitude when it could instead have made the transition an extremely smooth one with essentially no additional effort on its part. That’s the kind of annoyance that doesn’t tend to fade with time or familiarity, as Microsoft has learned over the past 6 months. Whether they’ve learned the right lessons, though, is yet to be determined.

Great summary of my own thoughts. Couldn’t have said it better myself. Kudo’s to you for the way you explained it.

Andy

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I had to do some research and spend several hours just experimenting before I could do everything.

According to many Windows 8 lovers here, it should have taken you less than 30 minutes to figure everyting out and that it was the easiest thing in the world to figure our how to do everything you could do before, so you must be among the minority.

Note that I said according to “many Windows 8 lovers” there.. I can assure you that I’m not one of them – certainly not in Windows 8 current default configuration and without third party applications (like Start8 or similar) making it usable to folks who have happily used Windows desktops for several years now. :p

Cheers…

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And insult to injury, if one does take the time to try and make it all work the way MS intends, one is learning a much less efficient way to use a computer unless one’s needs are already very simplistic, in other words, not desktop oriented. If there was some efficiency to be gained then learning the Win8 way might be beneficial to more than a few.

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I don’t understand the “less efficient” argument. I have been using Windows versions since 3.0 so I think I know all the previous versions pretty well.

I do not find any lower efficiency in Windows 8. I am not using more mouse clicks or keyboard actions than ever (in fact, probably fewer). Yes, it is a little bit different but the learning curve is not especially steep. I have made no changes to Windows in 8 beyond those I always do (such as moving start icons for my most used programs to the Taskbar and installing my preferred browser, Firefox). All my old desktop programs work exactly as they did before. I want some one to demonstrate to me how it is less efficient. Give me measurements or controlled testing timings. Saying, I don’t like the tiles or the Start screen or the loss of a Start button does not prove it is less efficient. It just means that you don’t like it and that is fine. Lots of people still like XP or Win2000 dispute their vulnerabilities and frequent crashes. No one is forced to get Win8. There are ways to get Win7, even on new computers. I happen to like it and find it works every bit as well and efficiently as Win 7 and offers me some new features that I really like, like Storage Spaces, support for multiple monitors and the ability to define Raid arrays within the Disk Management facilities. It also boots faster and seems at least as stable as Win7, if not more so. But after using it for several months now, I find that all the arguments I have read against Win8 to be highly suspect. Most of them seem to be based on anger at Microsoft for changing things which has nothing to do with how well the OS works or how efficient it is.

At least Microsoft has never done what Apple did a few years ago and create a new version of their OS that is totally incompatible with all previous hardware and programs.

By the way, it appears you Win8 haters will get your Start button and booting to the desktop back soon anyway. Will that make some people happy?

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I don’t understand the “less efficient” argument. I have been using Windows versions since 3.0 so I think I know all the previous versions pretty well.

I do not find any lower efficiency in Windows 8. I am not using more mouse clicks or keyboard actions than ever (in fact, probably fewer). Yes, it is a little bit different but the learning curve is not especially steep. I have made no changes to Windows in 8 beyond those I always do (such as moving start icons for my most used programs to the Taskbar and installing my preferred browser, Firefox). All my old desktop programs work exactly as they did before. I want some one to demonstrate to me how it is less efficient. Give me measurements or controlled testing timings. Saying, I don’t like the tiles or the Start screen or the loss of a Start button does not prove it is less efficient. It just means that you don’t like it and that is fine. Lots of people still like XP or Win2000 dispute their vulnerabilities and frequent crashes. No one is forced to get Win8. There are ways to get Win7, even on new computers. I happen to like it and find it works every bit as well and efficiently as Win 7 and offers me some new features that I really like, like Storage Spaces, support for multiple monitors and the ability to define Raid arrays within the Disk Management facilities. It also boots faster and seems at least as stable as Win7, if not more so. But after using it for several months now, I find that all the arguments I have read against Win8 to be highly suspect. Most of them seem to be based on anger at Microsoft for changing things which has nothing to do with how well the OS works or how efficient it is.

At least Microsoft has never done what Apple did a few years ago and create a new version of their OS that is totally incompatible with all previous hardware and programs.

By the way, it appears you Win8 haters will get your Start button and booting to the desktop back soon anyway. Will that make some people happy?

That’s what I’ve been seeing too. A lot of haters who just want to whine about how they can’t find the desktop….:rolleyes:

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I’ve read all the posts here and I can use w8 just like w7. It took awhile to get to the desktop
(pre release download) but I got there. After about a week, how to turn off the computer?
Well I googled and the answer was to go to start and click on name in upper right and sign out
and go from there. IL try to stay out of “metro” as much as possible. As far as the charms bar goes, it is worse than a desktop full of icons, the apps section is ridiculous , when I installed Nero it added 30 icons to the apps. Now the apps section looks like novel of icon with words.
Trying to find any thing has now become timely chore. I could go on but you get the idea,
becoming more time consuming and harder to find thing than easier.
Now can someone tell me how to get to the bios or safe mode in w8? The way I do it is to switch power between two hard drives (w7 and w8) and reboot to change the bios on the computer.
The frustration can be summed up like this, in XP you click once and just about anything you need is there
and in w7 and w8 you have to maybe click 3,4 times to get to where you are going.

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I’ve read all the posts here and I can use w8 just like w7. It took awhile to get to the desktop
(pre release download) but I got there. After about a week, how to turn off the computer?
[/quote]
Charms bar, Settings, Power, Shutdown.

(…) the apps section is ridiculous , when I installed Nero it added 30 icons to the apps. Now the apps section looks like novel of icon with words.
Trying to find any thing has now become timely chore.

You can leave only the most used apps in the Start Screen. Mine is quite minimal and it fits in the screen of my 12″ laptop.

becoming more time consuming and harder to find thing than easier.

Just as I type in the search box above the Start button, in Windows 7, to get to an app that’s not in the list you get immediately when you open the start menu, the fastest way to get to the app you want in windows 8 is to use the keyboard (unless you have touch). Windows key + Q and type, or simply Windows key and start to type the name of the app you want and you will get a reduced list of apps to choose from. There isn’t much difference from windows 7, actually.

Now can someone tell me how to get to the bios or safe mode in w8? The way I do it is to switch power between two hard drives (w7 and w8) and reboot to change the bios on the computer.

Bios is easier. Just restart the computer and press the key that takes you to the bios, immediately after your computer starts to boot.

Safe mode is not that easy. Probably the easiest way is to start msconfig (Windows key and type msconfig), then click System Configuration from the apps list, click the Boot tab. Then you can check the Safe Boot option and choose one of the 4 options below (Minimal being the default).

HTH

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Thanks ruirib. I have tried to get to the bios the normal way but it did not work more than once in w8, that is why I use win7 to change the bios.
As for safe mode, I just I never need to go there in win8. It’s just that MS makes things harder than easier in most of their software.
Thanks again ruirib.

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You can easily remove any icons you don’t want on the Start screen or move them to the Taskbar, whichever you prefer. You don’t have to have all those Start icons. They are just put there by default just like icons used to be put on your desktop for every program you installed in XP. You can make the Start screen be very efficient by removing what you don’t use much and then grouping the icons into sets of similar programs. You just drag and drop to do this or right click a tile to get the choice to delete or move an item to the Taskbar. It takes only a couple of minutes to customize this. Reducing clutter in Windows has always been an issue since at least 3.1. You should easily be able to make Win8 less cluttered and more usable than XP ever was.

There are also lots of places where you can find scripts you can copy that will give you a Restart, Logout and Shutdown button or you can get to them through the Settings icon in the Charms bar. If you have a newer computer with a UEFI Bios you may have to check with your motherboard or computer manufacturer for the process to enter into the BIOS. You usually get to the BIOS when starting your computer and hitting some key or key combination before Windows starts. On many computers it is the F2 or the DEL key.

You may also want to see if there is a BIOS update available for your system. Many UEFI BIOS makers have issued updates to provide better support for Win8. This will provide better levels of security and stability, if available.

As for Safe Mode, they’ve made it sort of hard to get to in Win8 because the idea is that few, if any, people should really need to use it and those that do should know what they are doing. It’s been moved into the Advanced Startup where you can also do all sorts of troubleshooting and repair and recovery activities. Here is a good article on how to get to Safe Mode: http://pcsupport.about.com/od/windows-8/ss/windows-8-safe-mode.htm

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Thanks Jazz. MS seams to think most users don’t know squat and dumb down so no one tries to mess with the junk they put out.
Thanks again.

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This announcement doesn’t surprise me at all and I feel somewhat vindicated after getting so much flack from some users here when I revealed that I sent a bulk email to all of my clients to avoid Windows 8 like the plague and predicted that Windows 8 (in it’s current incarnation) would be a total flop.

Sales are down, refund requests are in the thousands and I’ve uninstalled Windows 8 for at least 4 clients to date who decided to ignore my advice or simply didn’t read the newsletter I sent out warning them to avoid the operating system in their business environment. The complaints about how much longer it took (more mouse clicks) to do tasks that they were used to doing so easily over the last few years have been plentiful here.

With regards to what I consider to be the biggest problems with the operating system, I wouldn’t be surprised if Microsoft either re-introduced a “proper” start button in the next release / patch of Windows 8 or purchased the Start8 or Classic Shell addons and provided a built in option to boot directly to a desktop. Then, and only then could Windows 8 be considered for deployment in their biggest money spinners – the business sector.

Cheers…

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Anyone who would tell others not to try something simply because they don’t like it is doing those others a disservice IMO. Instead of telling them not to try it, show them how to make it easier to utilize this more secure and more stable OS, IMO

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Anyone who would tell others not to try something simply because they don’t like it is doing those others a disservice IMO. Instead of telling them not to try it, show them how to make it easier to utilize this more secure and more stable OS, IMO

My clients disagree with your assessment Ted as is evidenced by the Windows 8 installations that I’ve formatted out and installed Windows 7 on for those 4 (to date) that *hate* the thing and say that it just caused them a whole heap of lost productivity time because they don’t have the time or money to pay to train their employees in using their computers all over again.

In so far as more secure and stable, that’s a matter of opinion.. My Windows 7 Pro installation gets rebooted maybe once a month when Security patches are released. Other than that it’s as stable and secure as ever. Same goes for all the client I look after.

Cheers…

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It’s rather obvious that Metro wasn’t as well received on new desktop computers as MS expected…….sales are down, ( true, other factors contributed ).

But one thing that puzzled me. Why didn’t PC manufacturers customize their product to address the rejection?
I have no need or want of Metro’ization’.
Classic Shell was my solution on a recently purchased laptop.
Why couldn’t the PC industry have offered an app such as CS as an option?

IMO….the PC industry should/could have better addressed their customers, too.

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But one thing that puzzled me. Why didn’t PC manufacturers customize their product to address the rejection?
I have no need or want of Metro’ization’.
Classic Shell was my solution on a recently purchased laptop.
Why couldn’t the PC industry have offered an app such as CS as an option?

IMO….the PC industry should/could have better addressed their customers, too.

HP and Samsung did:

The HP Quick Start Application (Windows 8)

Samsung to return classic Start menu to Windows 8 with free app

Bruce

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Very true Medico in terms of individual forays. It’s a bit different in a tech-client situation. Extra considerations are needed like the possibility of additional support which in all forms basically translates into higher costs, which one would think is good for the tech-support business, but in actuality is only good if the tech has the extra time and the clients accept what they’ve gotten into and avoid development of bad will, avoid contracts being cancelled and poor referrals, avoid legitimate cost from being eaten …it has the potential to upset a rather delicate balance. The tech/client relationship is already volatile enough at times with migrations to traditionally understood interfaces because of so many behind the scenes changes going on that the client is often not aware of.

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Very true Medico in terms of individual forays. It’s a bit different in a tech-client situation. Extra considerations are needed like the possibility of additional support which in all forms basically translates into higher costs, which one would think is good for the tech-support business, but in actuality is only good if the tech has the extra time and the clients accept what they’ve gotten into and avoid development of bad will, avoid contracts being cancelled and poor referrals, avoid legitimate cost from being eaten …it has the potential to upset a rather delicate balance. The tech/client relationship is already volatile enough at times with migrations to traditionally understood interfaces because of so many behind the scenes changes going on that the client is often not aware of.

All the more reason for the tech/consultant to set the stage upfront. Not just say “don’t”. If you don’t explain the situation and set the expectations then you deserve what you get.

Joe

--Joe

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All the more reason for the tech/consultant to set the stage upfront. Not just say “don’t”. If you don’t explain the situation and set the expectations then you deserve what you get.

Joe

I have to agree with this. A tech/consultant should be able to properly point advantages and disadvantages of any solution and the decision should be made by the customer. Of course, the consultant will have his own opinion, to be offered when asked, but I confess I couldn’t be as negative as I have seen here, even when I don’t like the solution being discussed. Even then, a full tech assessment should be given and the decision made by the customer. I wouldn’t take decisions for the customer, unless explicitly asked to, but I seriously would rather not be in such a place. Responsibility must be taken by those who need to take it, not offloaded to someone else.

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Agreed, as long as the tech has the time and as long as the customer is upstanding and does indeed take responsibility for the decision. Problem is it is so easy to shift the responsibility unjustly in those situations, and some would say, well, better off without that customer anyway, but maybe not if that flintstone was the only issue.

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If the tech person sets the PC up for the customer initially, say install a Start Menu alternative and set it to boot to the desktop, and perhaps disable the Charms on the desktop, then it would not be necessary to have numerous support calls with that customer. Just these 3 very easy customizations will make the customer feel like they are in the old OS instead of Win 8. I still fail to see why this is so hard. Instead of saying “don’t use it” try to make it useable to your customers. Since most new PCs are coming pre-installed with Win 8 point them on how to use it rather than not to try it. Just my opinion here.

Of course these 3 customizations may take 5 to 10 minutes of the tech’s time.

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If the tech person sets the PC up for the customer initially, say install a Start Menu alternative and set it to boot to the desktop, and perhaps disable the Charms on the desktop, then it would not be necessary to have numerous support calls with that customer. Just these 3 very easy customizations will make the customer feel like they are in the old OS instead of Win 8. I still fail to see why this is so hard. Instead of saying “don’t use it” try to make it useable to your customers. Since most new PCs are coming pre-installed with Win 8 point them on how to use it rather than not to try it. Just my opinion here.

Of course these 3 customizations may take 5 to 10 minutes of the tech’s time.

Definitely a good approach, since you are giving your customer an easy way to deal with the real world.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Basically it’s an economy of scale. If I only had one system to manage for myself, I wouldn’t mind making the change and maintaining any discrepancies that arise. I don’t know if you know what truly inane (in our estimation, not the customers) issues arise all the time that an experienced user takes care of without a second thought. Another concept that has to be understood is differential treatment in a mixed environment. If everything is uniform, grin and bear it because support issues will follow the same (for the most part) path of morphology. Environments are almost always decidedly mixed however. Also, customers will quite often try to fix something themselves first and almost invariably make it worse.
So yes, we understand, the up front cost is not so bad, but that’s like saying a customer with a propensity for getting viruses needs a more secure OS and better A-V; well, yes, but that’s only 15 or 20% of the picture.

Somewhat relatable is the more philosophical easement granted to Microsoft in that if we keep transmuting Win8 into Win7 systems, Microsoft will continue to have to place interface compromises betwixt and between where none are needed, indeed where I think none should be except a transfer item/tile in each to each other’s interface. Why is unnecessary complexity being added, were computers getting too simple to operate? Of course not, we’re all caught in a BETA leveraging experiment on a monopolized customer base. I have no idea why anyone satisfied with Win8 would get defensive in the least unless it were unjustly chastised for stability problems or some such. I only ask that equal consideration be given and to do that one has to step outside of any self-interest. I’m not a malcontent by nature or just for heck of it but I have neither the time or inclination to support Win8 because it is such a deviant from the statistical bell curve. If everyone just magically switched over to Win8, then it would create it’s own statistical curve and maybe be a bit better than XP and Win7 in that respect, who knows; that is not the reality at this time though.

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Part of the problem is that many (most?) people never bother or want to bother to learn the new features that come with each OS version. If more people had learned the new or changed features that came with Win7, Win8 would not seem quite so different. Many of the things that people find new in 8 are extensions or modifications of Win7 ideas, such as how search works and pinning applications and programs to the desktop or taskbar. So when a vendor decides to make changes which may force people to learn some new things, the changes are more jarring than they otherwise might appear. Now I have always tried to become familiar with what’s new in each Windows version and to at least try the new features and see how they work for me. Because I had played around with a lot of the new stuff in Win7, Win8 did not seem as different to me as it seems to be to others. I do some teaching of Windows to adults and am amazed that some of the other instructors aren’t even familiar with a lot of the features in Win7 or even XP. They are essentially using Windows XP or 7 as if it were Window 95 or 98.

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Nice JP! During the 4.5 months I was testing Win 8 I just let that screen go bloat as much as it would and it was pages and pages of nearly useless subroutine utilities related to the main programs, just a little bit of the inefficiency I mentioned earlier. I would like to see just Apps place themselves there by default and let the user add desktop programs of their choice to avoid that.

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Mine is slightly different, but similar in that I have controlled the tiles I let reside on the Start Screen. I can always go to the All Apps screen to get those other tiles.

33920-Start-Screen

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Ted and FUN, good morning. Thanks for a little approval. A simple mind needs a simple approach to everything. You said, Ted, >>> I can always go to the All Apps screen to get those other tiles.<<>> I just let that screen go bloat as much as it would <<< …. I never did let it run as it wanted. As I said above, I own the machine. Sure, it is a home-built but even more so. I like the snappiness of W-8 and this Acer is no fireball. I have 23 icons on the Quick Launch and this serves me fine. Are we not all different ??? Jean.

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I think I had another A-ha moment…

that desktop tile interface… it seems to be a merging of the currently running apps as well as the shortcut icons to load them… Is that correct?

and then if you wrap into that concept the thumbnails over taskbar icons in 7… you get those tiles??

to put it differently:

Older Windows (9x-7) have a quick launch area of the taskbar (you can toggle it on or off) and the taskbar (simply shows actively running icons)

Windows Vista introduced thumbnails over the running programs.

Windows 7 introduced ‘pinning’ icons to the taskbar (to replace the Quick Launch concept) (and shrinking the buttons to only show ONE icon to represent every windows/instance of the program.)

Windows 8 merges all of 7 changes and made the ‘taskbar’ the entire screen (start screen), while also allowing much more information to show within each tile as compared to previous incarnation.

Windows 8 has a ’tile’ that removes/hides this new ‘taskbar’ interface and gives you a literal taskbar again.

Is that all correct? At least conceptually?

Reading this thread got my gears spinning… I think if I’m right, it does make some sense how they changed the UI…

It could even be that touch-screen was an after-thought, or even a ‘bonus’… making an icon large enough to show real data suddenly makes it large enough for my fat finger…

In screenshots, I see that tiles can update their own contents and be resized… so maybe this new interface isn’t so bad after all??

Now remember I haven’t USED it before. But as far as I’ve explained it now, it doesn’t sound half bad. Now with the other complaints (charms bar?), I got nothing. Gotta try before I can talk about that.

I’m actively searching for a spare hard drive so I can give this a proper whirl… I greatly enjoy this thread! You can learn a lot about the evolution of Windows.

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Yes, 880, you are getting the jest of it, you can run W-8 as you wish. The big tiles are there for a touch screen and as I do not have one, they are all gone. The touch is not an afterthought, it has its reason to be. Tablets ! Big fingers or not ! Let me repeat myself, I use W-8 as I used W-7. Have a nice weekend. Jean.

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Conceptually pretty close except for the first part; there is yet another start screen task-bar-ish panel on the left side where the running apps reside, including the desktop if that’s active, but any settings or programs associated with the desktop go directly to the desktop. The “live” tiles perform similar function to desktop gadgets if nothing else is on screen.
As Jean says, you can use W-8 as W-7, one quickly realizes that the choice between interfaces start and desktop, between touch-centric and mouse and keyboard, should have been just that, a choice. It was the attempt to meld the two with one unifying interface that brings about all the extra and completely unnecessary complexity and lack of continuity.
Jean’s example of the start screen sort of whittle’s it down to all that was required; a desktop tile there, and a start screen menu item or icon on the desktop, with the option to boot into either by default. That’s it, nothing else needed. Seems to be where Microsoft is headed with Blue according to leaked builds. If so, it should help.

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StartIsBack 2.02 lets one put the Start Screen Apps on the Start Menu, which pretty much eliminates the need for the Charms Bar. StartIsBack also can kill all the hot corners. The only App for which I have any use is the Weather App. I work outdoors for the most part, so I like to have an idea of what’s coming up. I’ve copied the Weather App shortcut from the Start Menu to my Desktop. I can double-click the shortcut and it opens in the Start Screen, and when I’m finished with it I just Alt + Tab to go back to the Desktop, instead of having to use the mouse to rip the Weather App off the screen. Then I can Alt + Tab from the desktop anytime I want to check the weather.

The Start Screen makes sense for a tablet; I get that. It’s hardly efficient for a workstation, though. And the fact that a small third-party piece of software can offer the choice Microsoft crippled (without any third-party processes or services running – just native Windows code) is sort of the mud in the eye from Microsoft, so to speak.

Now that I’ve carved Windows 8 up to suit me, I’m installing my stuff and getting it fitted out to use regularly so that I can see if my setup is as good on Windows 8 as it is on Windows 7. It’s more like Windows 7 SP2, rather than Windows 8, and I like Windows 7. The Weather App is a full-screen substitute for my Weather Gadget in Windows 7. It’s not as convenient nor as unobtrusive, but I can make use of it. And I can make use of Windows 8.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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bbearren, hello.
Is this the weather app that you use ? http://www.nws.noaa.gov/outlook_tab.php

It takes a little study to know where to go/search but it is complete. As you, I am an outdoor person and I look at this site daily. Jean.

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Hi Jean,

It’s just the free default Bing Weather that is included in Windows 8. It’s customizable for location, includes hourly forecasts, has current radar and historical data. It suits for most everything I need on a day-to-day basis.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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As I was referring to, a simple 5 minute change would have saved the hours necessary to switch from Win 8 back to Win 7. Install a Start Menu replacement, then set to boot directly to the Desktop UI and disable hot corners on the Desktop UI. Voila, looks and feels like Win 7 in about 5 mins., especially if you have the Start Menu replacement downloaded to a flash or other such media.

With this simple change my PCs do indeed look and feel like my Win 7. So for those who cannot justify a learning curve on the Win 8 Start Screen, with this app they never have to see the Start Screen, unless they wish to by using the Win key.

The point is that some may actually like some of these changes in Win 8 rather than never knowing about them. This is my opinion. I like to give people an option. People have been railing about MS not giving people an option with Win 8. well, using these little apps I can still give people an option, especially if they cannot get past the Win 8 Start Screen.

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Well to be fair in reporting, there was finally a guy on The Tech Guy show who liked Win8 and he was using it in a business (some kind of graphics art business if I recall correctly). Number one feature for him was search, one of the reasons I quite dislike Win8 of course! :p Not for its function but for both its location and context.

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Well to be fair in reporting, there was finally a guy on The Tech Guy show who liked Win8 and he was using it in a business (some kind of graphics art business if I recall correctly). Number one feature for him was search, one of the reasons I quite dislike Win8 of course! :p Not for its function but for both its location and context.

Finally I’m not alone.:)

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Yeah, FINALLY, one guy comes forward to say he likes Windows 8, that’s almost humorous F.U.N.

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Yeah, FINALLY, one guy comes forward to say he likes Windows 8, that’s almost humorous F.U.N.

I have installed Windows 8 32-bit on a spare computer with 2 gb of ram. For the most part, I like it. What I like is, it feels more stable, solid, and fast than Windows 7.

In addition to no Windows 7-style start button, I have found some things I don’t like:

* If I run IE from the Start screen, and I then right-click on a link and choose Open in new tab, it appears to work, but I can’t find the new tab anywhere. It looks like the new tab functionality has been removed. Therefore I always run IE from the Desktop.

* I installed LibreOffice. If I run it from the Start screen, it loads really slow, as I recall. But no such problem exists if I run it from the Desktop.

* Some apps move you arbitrarily to the “metro” interface of the app without your telling them to.

I’m sure I’ll find a way around these problems, just like I have found a way around other problems in Windows 8. I am satisfied enough with it to put it on my main computer, as soon as I purchase a bigger hard drive and more memory.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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* If I run IE from the Start screen, and I then right-click on a link and choose Open in new tab, it appears to work, but I can’t find the new tab anywhere. It looks like the new tab functionality has been removed. Therefore I always run IE from the Desktop.

If Internet Options, General, Tabs, “Always switch to new tabs when they are created ” is checked, then the new tab will be opened.

Otherwise you need to right-click again to see thumbnails of the new and all other tabs.

It all works the same but tabs are not on permanent display.

Bruce

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If Internet Options, General, Tabs, “Always switch to new tabs when they are created ” is checked, then the new tab will be opened.

Otherwise you need to right-click again to see thumbnails of the new and all other tabs.

It all works the same but tabs are not on permanent display.

Bruce

Sounds like this would be more useful that what I have been doing — when I open a new web page in a new tab, till now I have had to then click on the new tab to see the new web page. What you have described sounds like the new tab would become the default tab, saving me one step.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Sounds like this would be more useful that what I have been doing — when I open a new web page in a new tab, till now I have had to then click on the new tab to see the new web page. What you have described sounds like the new tab would become the default tab, saving me one step.

Yes, if you want it that way, it’s been a toggle (new tab in background or foreground) in Avant browser for maybe 6 or 7 years now? Lost track of exactly how long but I think most if not all have something similar now. I prefer not switching to the new tab upon opening (foreground) since I may open 3 or four links from one page as I read and don’t want that process interrupted with the first new tab.

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Yes, if you want it that way, it’s been a toggle (new tab in background or foreground) in Avant browser for maybe 6 or 7 years now? Lost track of exactly how long but I think most if not all have something similar now. I prefer not switching to the new tab upon opening (foreground) since I may open 3 or four links from one page as I read and don’t want that process interrupted with the first new tab.

That’s true.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Well I know nothing of their call-screening process so, you think they’ve been screening those and favoring the malcontents?

Veronica Belmont’s lesser half was on TWiT Sunday. She has Windows 8 for gaming, wasn’t around, he decided to give it a go, cold turkey, how bad can it be right? Basically said he never felt more flummoxed or embarrassed by his inability to use Windows 8 because as he said to paraphrase, I’m the guy who uses/tries everything new with an interface on it, phones, tablets, operating systems, home media devices, you name it, and I got absolutely nowhere.

So just as those who can’t understand what the big deal is, it’s easily adapted to one’s usage habits, I cannot for the life of me understand why those same folks don’t want that initial barrier to usage blown to smithereens, but it seems like that opposition is not understood by those I dare not label. This is an OS we’re talking about here, not a seamless geode.

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An observation or three…

The Start Button/Menu was not removed from Windows 8, is was intentionally crippled. This is not conjecture, it is verifiable by the fact that StartIsBack re-enables the Start Button/Menu using native Windows 8 code – there are no third-party services/processes running in support of StartIsBack.

My (shared) conjecture is that Microsoft intended to force users into the Metro UI in order to create a large enough base to encourage developers to write Apps for the Metro UI. It’s just business. Microsoft builds a new revenue stream with the App Store. This also dovetails nicely into the subscription model for software that Microsoft is hinting so strongly about.

There are a number of us who are not enthralled with the idea of a loyal user base being treated somewhat like chattel.

I don’t own an Apple computer (or anything else Apple, for that matter), and it seems that Microsoft is trying to become a bit Apple-ish. There are a number of us who are not enthralled with that notion, either.

And last but not at all least, it is just as acceptable to not like a concept as it is to like a concept.

Yes, I can use Windows 8, and the way I’m using it makes it more Windows 7 SP2 than Windows 8. The message is that I’m doing this in spite of Microsoft, not through Microsoft.

The major complaint, as I see it, is that this option could have easily been done through Microsoft in the OOBE, and had Microsoft chosen that route, these love it/hate it discussions would be a tiny whisper and hardly noticeable.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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An observation or three…

The Start Button/Menu was not removed from Windows 8, is was intentionally crippled. This is not conjecture, it is verifiable by the fact that StartIsBack re-enables the Start Button/Menu using native Windows 8 code – there are no third-party services/processes running in support of StartIsBack.

My (shared) conjecture is that Microsoft intended to force users into the Metro UI in order to create a large enough base to encourage developers to write Apps for the Metro UI. It’s just business. Microsoft builds a new revenue stream with the App Store. This also dovetails nicely into the subscription model for software that Microsoft is hinting so strongly about.

There are a number of us who are not enthralled with the idea of a loyal user base being treated somewhat like chattel.

I don’t own an Apple computer (or anything else Apple, for that matter), and it seems that Microsoft is trying to become a bit Apple-ish. There are a number of us who are not enthralled with that notion, either.

And last but not at all least, it is just as acceptable to not like a concept as it is to like a concept.

Yes, I can use Windows 8, and the way I’m using it makes it more Windows 7 SP2 than Windows 8. The message is that I’m doing this in spite of Microsoft, not through Microsoft.

The major complaint, as I see it, is that this option could have easily been done through Microsoft in the OOBE, and had Microsoft chosen that route, these love it/hate it discussions would be a tiny whisper and hardly noticeable.

I just installed StartIsBack on my Windows 8 computer, and amazingly I have a Windows 7 style start button and start menu!

I think I’m gonna survive Windows 8 after all!

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Oops, never mind, Windows 8 is just fine.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/microsoft-feeling-very-good-about-windows-8-2013-05-14

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* If I run IE from the Start screen, and I then right-click on a link and choose Open in new tab, it appears to work, but I can’t find the new tab anywhere. It looks like the new tab functionality has been removed. Therefore I always run IE from the Desktop.

When I was testing/looking about the tabs in Modern I.E. were in a drop down panel, little preview icons (more like the Chrome recently opened pages page) instead of actual tabs so they would be finger friendly and not get in the way quickly as one opened more “tabs.”

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Ya, without a properly customized start menu I feel like I’m driving a car without tires. One other thing I wonder, how apps are ever going to overcome the power of the context menu, the inter-operability that provides on the desktop is nothing short of astounding to me now that I realize what I didn’t properly appreciate when using the Modern interface apps instead. Depending on the file, a photo for example, I might have upwards of 25 options in the context menu, and most of them are useful, even an instant preview item since I overwhelmingly use details view and Windows does not handle all formats on its own like a good third party image program does.

Don’t think it was Microsoft’s intent but I admire the traditional Windows desktop integration even more now that I’ve been shown how far it really has come by comparison.

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UI Expert Says Windows 9 Will Be Windows 8 Done Right

Article about the Article in Tom’s Hardware
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/windows-8-user-interface-ux,19191.html

Windows 8 — Disappointing Usability for Both Novice and Power Users

The Article
http://www.nngroup.com/articles/windows-8-disappointing-usability/

Interesting articles about useability of Metro UI

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“Microsoft Admits Failure on Windows 8”

Microsdoft did no such thing. That was the title of the Marketwatch article.

Microsoft simply announced that they will publish Windows 8.1. Among the changes suggested are the ability to boot straight to the desktop and bypass the tiles, and also to restore the Start button.

I start my Win 8 and go to Desktop and work from there. The tiles are fine for a touchscreen tablet (which is why they’re there anyway), they just aren’t that great for a keyboard/mouse PC.

Rip

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Microsoft did no such thing. That was the title of the Marketwatch article.[/Quote]

..and it was a perfectly accurate title by Marketwatch in my opinion.

Leaving out the Start Button and forcing desktop users to install third party Start Button replacements, which included the option to boot straight to a familiar desktop is testament to the fact that Microsoft’s idea is a total failure on a desktop computer. Heck, even you yourself admit to booting straight into a familiar desktop environment and admit that the Tiles (metro style interface) “just aren’t that great for a keyboard/mouse PC” :rolleyes:

Add to that the the fact that sales of Windows 8 pre-installed desktops are down to previous versions of the operating system and business users avoiding Windows 8 like the plague (admittedly, partly because of people like me who made a point of writing blogs and telling subscribed clients via newsletters to avoid the initial final release of Windows 8 for new or replacement desktops) also lends credence to the fact that Microsoft have admitted they got it wrong IF they’re now going to “publish Windows 8.1” with changes that replace an item that will again make it far more user friendly to long time Windows users and you simply can’t fault Marketwatch (and other publications) for using titles like that for their articles and reviews.

[Quote]Among the changes suggested are the ability to boot straight to the desktop and bypass the tiles, and also to restore the Start button.[/Quote]

I certainly hope that’s true, but will only believe it when I see it happen.. IF it is true, then it is also a clear admission of failure on MIcrosoft’s part. Third party Start button replacements providing the ability to boot straight into a “Desktop User Friendly” environment were on the market before the final release of Windows 8 even hit store retail shelves or places like Amazon, where if you read the user feedback reviews, have been flooded with refund requests by those that purchased Windows 8 from them.

That says volumes about Microsoft making a HUGE mistake by leaving those functions out of Windows 8 in the first place. They made a stupid decision and it’s [impacted] with sales and extremely poor reviews that can be found all over the Internet.

[Quote]I start my Win 8 and go to Desktop and work from there. The tiles are fine for a touchscreen tablet (which is why they’re there anyway), they just aren’t that great for a keyboard/mouse PC.[/Quote]

Indeed.. and you do that why? My guess is because you agree that their stupid tiles and swipe technology on a desktop with mouse and keyboard is not only counter productive, but also creates a huge and totally unnecessary (not to mention quite expensive!) learning curves for employer’s employees in the business sector – which is undeniably Microsoft’s biggest money spinner.

At the place I work and act as System Administrator / IT Manager, we have about 30 desktops now (plus 3 servers – 1 x 2003 SBS and 2 x 2003 File Servers). On all of those, 99% are still running either Windows XP Pro or Windows 7 Pro on machines recently replaced, with 1 computer running on Windows 8, purchased for my use only for the sole reason of keeping up with Microsoft’s latest madness being Windows 8. I hardly use the thing apart from providing remote support via LogMeIn Rescue (from the Desktop Environment) to provide help to existing and new clients (99.9% of those running Windows XP or Windows 7 as well)

Finally, the company I work for hires me out to external firms (Accountants, Law firms and other small businesses) and we’ve been paid no less than 3 times already to format Windows 8 out of recently purchased machines and replace them with Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate, despite the fact that I told them about Start8 and other similar third party add ons to try and save them money. They were so peeved about the loss of productivity Windows 8 caused them that rejected the idea of the add-ons outright.

Thanks for the thousands of dollars additional work Microsoft!

For the record, I have no Start button add-ons on my system at work – I am using it with no third party add-ons (apaprt from WebRoot – an Anti Virus released by Firetrust) and only with the tools provided by Microsoft. I find myself switching to Desktop mode as soon as I enter my password. Something I should not have to do – why people were not given that option during install is beyond me and a large part of the operating systems demise at this point and time imo. I’ve been using it for several months now and am yet to find anything endearing about the Tile “metro style” interface on a desktop fitted with a corded Microsoft Keyboard and Mouse

In my experience, the majority of the Business Sector *hates* Windows 8 because they are angry at Microsoft for tricking them into paying their employees for putting out less productivity because of how different Windows 8 is to what their employees are used to. All three got my news letter advising to avoid Windows 8 – all three apologised for not listening to my advise and told me they would pay more attention to my newsletters in the future.

I will not reveal who I work for publicly however am happy to reveal that information to a Senior moderator here (along with contact information to the company in Melbourne) if people reading this post doubt what I’ve said and am just making it up because I hate Microsoft. I will do so with the proviso that I am assured by the moderator(s) here that they will never reveal the company I Administrate and am the IT Manager at.

And just in case folks here decide to label me as a Microsoft Hater, I can assure you that noting could be further from the truth. I have been a Microsoft User since Windows 3.1 and have upgraded to each new version release ever since.. I like Microsoft and even had our company on Windows 3.11 for Workgroups when that was released, but since Bill Gates left the scene, I think Microsoft have lost the plot big time and made a huge mistake (aka “failed”) in their idea of forcing Windows 8 on people in it’s current incarnation, with no in-built start button or the ability to easily boot into a familiar Windows desktop environment without a third party add-on being installed.

Had they listened to their beta testers and all the feedback they got before the final release and included those options in the first place, Windows 8 could have been a huge success. It’s not without it’s problems, but it most certainly is a stable operating system and considerably more secure than Windows XP and Windows 7 straight out of the box.

I sure hope you’re right when you say…

[Quote]Microsoft simply announced that they will publish Windows 8.1. Among the changes suggested are the ability to boot straight to the desktop and bypass the tiles, and also to restore the Start button.[/Quote]

Peace…

Andy

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Leaving out the Start Button and forcing desktop users to install third party Start Button replacements, which included the option to boot straight to a familiar desktop is testament to the fact that Microsoft’s idea is a total failure on a desktop computer.

There was/is absolutely no need to do this & certainly nobody forced anyone into it. Anyone who tried to say this doesn’t understand Windows 8 or doesn’t know how to use it.

I would suggest that many of us do understand Windows 8 and have our own ideas of how we want to use it.

Let us not forget the one inviolable law of business: “The customer is always right.” I would submit that 8.1 (insofar as returning a Start Button and the ability to boot directly to the Desktop) is Microsoft’s feeble submission to that very law; they got it wrong the first time around, and no doubt their internal numbers (not the PR department’s numbers) left them little room for doubt.

There is obviously only one reason to restore the ability to boot directly to the Desktop; customer demand. Had Microsoft realized this initially, they would not have crippled that ability in Windows 8 Pro’s release.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Gates launched the PC market, Ballmer’s decimating it :mad:.

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But, some will, still continue, to blame everything on the global & human landscape on Microsoft, no matter what.

I for one just blame Microsoft for Microsoft. I’ve run Windows my own way successfully for quite a few years now, and have seen no reason to change my way of doing things. And since I can, I will continue to reconfigure Windows to suit me.

I like it better my way. That’s about it.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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I like it better my way. That’s about it.

As do tens of thousands of people all over the world, and mostly by users of Windows for many years, not to mention a hell of a lot Microsoft Certified Engineers in Microsoft’s own user groups.

Yet, despite ALL the evidence to the contrary, with Microsoft now caving to consumer demand (evidenced by talk of Windows 8.1 reinstating the Start button and the ability to boot directly to the desktop and by-passing the (imo) idiotic tiled screen on desktops fitted with Keyboard and Mouse without the need for third party add-ons). This is clear evidence that they’ve realised they failed dismally with the initial release of Windows 8 in so far as consumers are concerned and are purportedly working to fix it with the 8.1 release, you just can’t convince some people that Microsoft got it wrong.

These people will defend Windows 8’s first release to the death, despite now proven arguments to the contrary.. and if you don’t like it the way it is, then clearly, you don’t know how to use it?! :confused:

The reasoning behind them taking such a staunch position on this topic totally escapes me. Go figure :huh:

Cheers…

Andy

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From what I read, the Start side is getting quite the makeover, including the essential Store, might have to upgrade it’s status to Beta. Paul Thurrott says MS have done things in both interfaces to remediate the need to go to either’s opposite interface as much to get something done. Typical dry humor, Paul said, it’s a small victory but when dealing with Microsoft, we learn to rejoice in minor victories; less jarring is good.

I also agree with you Drew, if you had no use for the start menu, you should have the option to remove it.

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