Making the world safe for online shoppers

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ISSUE 21.10 • 2024-03-04 LEGAL BRIEF By Max Stul Oppenheimer, Esq. Today’s online shopping technology cannot quite match the in-person, brick-and-mort
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jburk07, Myst, rc primak, lmacri, Norio, fisher75, ibe98765, DLivesInTexas, Lars220

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‘In late 2022, the Washington Post reported data indicating that “Americans returned 47 percent of their online purchases” that year…’

The fact that nearly half of all purchasers were unhappy with either the fit, the colour, or whatever suggests to me that either the advertising is misleading, or that people hurrying to buy on Amazon or wherever, fail to properly read/understand the descriptions.

Or that people are ordering several items and making a final physical  choice at home as they would in a bricks and mortar shop.

Misdirection:  Sometimes the descriptions ‘skip’ information which I suspect the advertiser things would discourage the customer.  For example, bread baking tins which are described by capacity, but don’t mention the physical dimensions.

I used to be  a baker and if half of my customers came back with complaints I’d know that something was very wrong.

Advertising is about making sales, I understand that, but no sale is without consequences, either good or bad.

John

 

 

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rc primak, WSbobby-p

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Regarding reviews…

One of the problems with reviews is with  vendors pushing (sometimes aggressively) reviews, especially 5-star reviews, as a way of pushing their overall rating up.  Personally, I try to avoid reviews most of the time, and frequently if I submit a review that’s just numerical ratings, I avoid giving the highest numbers, unless there was some sort of outstanding “extra mile” thing that needs commendation.  In other words, save the superlatives for something really deserving, not just something routine that was nothing more than I expected.

If I’m reading reviews, I ignore the stuff that’s one or two sentences (and most easily bot-generated), and I tend to avoid most of the 5-star reviews. As with numerical ratings, too many of the 5-star reviews (even if actually written by somebody at a keyboard) are too easily prompted by sellers that the highest possible rating.

The stuff that’s more often useful (although not always) is what’s in the middle range: 4, 3, or 2 stars, where it’s more frequent that comment is more likely thought out, and more candid on nuance of the mix of positives and negatives.  The 1-star reviews are usually safe to ignore, both bots and “this product is garbage”, whether the latter are truly reviews from unhappy buyers (and with singling out one minor issue to justify the lowest possible score), or bot-driven.  And yes, those are the ones that are magnets for malicious competitors.

Even 4-star reviews can sometimes be problematic, especially if contributed by supposedly third-party reviewers.  Sometimes, in a list of pros and cons, may have only a token complaint, as a way of masking that the rest of the review is still advertising copy.

If I’m buying a product, I frequently look at the 2-star and 3-star reviews, looking for patterns of problems, that are noted by multiple reviews.  I care less about the features that the vendor is trying th emphasize, and I want to see the kinds of annoyances that I will have to live with if I actually buy the product.  There will be trade-offs among competing products, and there is no such thing as a product that does everything you want, with no annoyances or frustrations.

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wavy

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‘In late 2022, the Washington Post reported data indicating that “Americans returned 47 percent of their online purchases” that year…’

I was reading a story on returns as I was also boggled by the sheer size of this phenomena.  I was surprised to read of people who ordered stuff, left the tags on, wore it out somewhere and then returned it.  Then there were people who were using the clothes/items for photography in their [wannabe influencer] fashion blogs and then returning them.  One person couldn’t understand why this was not kosher.  She stated to the effect “how am I supposed to get started in fashion photography when I don’t have any money to buy clothes to photograph?”. [lol].

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rc primak

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Wow 47% is a huge return rate. And to think I was worried about my 1-2 % return rate with Amazon being too high.

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rc primak, WSbobby-p

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“Amazon said it employed more than 12,000 people who were dedicated to protecting customers and its store from fraud and other forms of abuse. It stated that it “proactively stopped more than 200 million suspected fake reviews in 2020 alone.””

And they still do a crappy job of managing reviews.  I flag Amazon reviews regularly.  I once went through at least 10 back and forth emails with Amazon regular and executive support over a 2 month period about a particular product that was clearly buying 5 star reviews.  I had the actual card offering to pay me $30 for a 5-star review.  I pointed out the gushing reviews in the product that were likely fake, based on my personal trial of the product.  Yet Amazon refused to remove the reviews posted.  I filed an FTC complaint.  And I complained to FakeSpot, which at least reduced the vendor product rating from something like a B to a D rating.

Amazon understands that reviews drive their business and so will almost never do anything about 5 star reviews that are clearly fake.  Giving a 5-star rating with an attached review like “Good!” or “Works as expected” or “Arrived on time” should not be acceptable.

Given that Amazon approves every review before it is posted, there is no reason that “reviews”, such as the examples above, should pass their screen, unless they are just giving lip service to the claim that they are truly battling fake reviews.

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jburk07, Myst, rc primak, satrow, Geo

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I found out Ebay has limitations  in small print with their “money back guarantee” when vendors fail to send the item you purchased.   The vendor after the sale changes the delivery time .  Ebay only allows 30 days after the sale.   Once the vendor extends the time past the 30 days Ebay will no longer give you your money back. Don’t purchase any thing that  is going to take longer then 30 days to deliver.

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jburk07, Myst, rc primak, kreela, SueW, windbg

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I know of a guy that recently shipped a racing bicycle to a buyer via eBay.  The buyer decided not to keep the bike, and and submitted a return — eBay processed, and issued a refund, but the buyer didn’t return the bike for several weeks.  The seller eventually got the bike back (and there was a legitimate reason for slowness of handling), but in eBay’s system, they processed the refund without verifying that the merchandise had actually been returned, and the seller had little recourse with eBay.

This is a problem with any of the big providers — not just Amazon or eBay, where the scale of operations is so big that they go to considerable ends to enforce customer self-service.  The assumption is that everything works, and if there are complications, they can be solved by FAQs.  No accounting for the possibility that there are real complications that are beyond the scope of an FAQ and being able to interact with a real person, especially somebody with sufficient authority to intervene, when doing so is needed.

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jburk07, rc primak, windbg

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This is a long standing problem on eBay and why I would hesitate to sell anything there.

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Yep, I purchased an item online for the convenience of not having to drive to my local store. Guess what I never received the item.. Ebay never made me whole because of their arcane rules on their “Money back guarantee.”

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Then you should have filed a credit card dispute.  But if you used a debit car instead, then you are basically SOL.  ALWAYS use a credit card for online purchases!

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One thing no one mentioned is the prevalence of reviewers who are paid by Amazon and vendors to review products.  There is a cottage industry where the reviewers are making money by giving webinars on how to become a paid reviewer.

These people are real, not A.I.. They may be a primary reason so many products get returned, and I wonder if they can receive compensation for the gift by returning it in addition to the commissions earned.

The intelligence of the crowd doesn’t apply here.  If Consumer Reports were better (I have been so disappointed with their reviews after buying the products), I might not have to use reviews to help me decide.

 

Second, and more important, if you click on the seller, they better be established.  I believe that a number of sellers start up, receive a bad review, and change their names.  I try to only purchase from sellers that need a good reputation to build a customer base.  Just try buying a laptop battery that is not sold directly from the manufacturer!  NinjaBatt is the only seller I recognize from last month, nevermind last year!

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rc primak, windbg, Still Anonymous

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Amazon DOES NOT pay people to do reviews.  That is illegal on the Amazon system.

Vendors on Amazon DO sometimes pay people for reviews.  This is illegal and if/when Amazon takes action against them, they get banned form the platform.  Some will, as you state, open up a new business under a different name but this isn’t as easy as it sounds.

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jburk07

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I can not image why people buy online. I have had too much issues with them. Most items are over priced by 30-50% online rather than in store. Online review are 98% fake. No easy to return, or talk to a real person or any contact phone number info etc.

Incorrect info on many online product-

• IE T-shirt for adult turns out is for small kids rather than adults.
• Or batteries that are “AA” but not “AA” since they are mini for some play toy from the 1990’s.
• Or getting a laptop that is just a paper print out of a laptop.

I think most people are too lazy to get their three letter word (IE rhythm with jack) of the bed or sofa on to go to the store. In store, you can touch the product. See how it looks. Feel how much it weights. You can smell it. You can taste it. You can hear it when you drop it and know that it will scatter on first fall. I test this in a few items and found the perfect cup that took 7 drops to break. I knew this cup was the right one to buy. 20 years later and cup is still whole. Drop it 3 times by accident at home from 3′ or 4′ feet and still holding. Have 2-3 more drop before it breaks. Cup that I got as a present from family from Amazon broke after slipping in the sink from about 3″ and broke into 4-5 pieces. Most online stuff is junk.

 

Stay safe by stating away from online stuff.
You will thank me later for it. This is my 2 cents on it.
Wow could have bought a whole pound of candy for that in my days for any old timers on here. Time for this old timer to go to sleep. Tomorrow comes weather I want it or not and have to deal with the stu… young generation that has no knowledge left in their brain.

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I find some items online which either do not exist in retail stores, or which don’t have the exact size or color I need or want. Doing research online, even though it can be frustrating, saves time, money and effort (and car use) over having to run around to several stores and then finding that none of them has what I want, even if they are currently advertising online that they do have it in stock.

Bricks and mortar retail is not what it once was, thanks in large part to people trying to save money by going directly to overseas companies and then trying to sneak their purchases past Customs and the tax authorities to save even more money. Then bragging on social media about doing these things.

-- rc primak

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wavy, jburk07

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Too funny…

I’ve purchased 112 items from Amazon since 1/1/2023.  A few had to be returned.  Had no issues doing that.  I’ve also bought 15 items or so from Temu in the last couple of months.  Some of them turned out tobe junk but then I paid almost nothing for them, so no major loss.

Most of the local stores don’t have the selection I can get on Amazon.  I don’t have the interest to drive all over creation searching for a product or the best price when I can let my “fingers fdo the walking”.

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rc primak, Alex5723

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At age 11 I realized that stealing was not for me. I stole a Payday candy bar from a liqueur store (way before their were 7 Elevens or other chains). And this store floated us for 4-5 months when my dad was unemployed. And the guilt crushed me. So one day I just slapped down $10 of my paper-route money. They asked what it was for, I told them, they said it was ok, and I told them “no, I need to do this.”

Also at that age I realized lying meant remembering what you said to who, and who they may have repeated the lie to. I realized I was to lazy to mentally deal with all that. So I stopped lying.

Now telling the truth does not always make one feel good or make you popular, but, oh well. I sleep better.

So yah, when I give a review, it is straight up honesty. I don’t need a lie lurking around in my head.

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Amazon has served us well but there have been times when the product malfunctioned or was not as expected. Returns have always worked smoothly, and we make sure it goes back in the exact shape it came, packed carefully on our end and taken to UPS securely boxed and labeled, within a short period of time.

I will say we like going out on a day that allows time to wander through shops or just knowing Home Depot has the exact part needed for a household fix on plumbing or getting the right color paint for the house.

When searching around Amazon for one thing or another there are guidelines we use. Seeing 5,000+ 4.8/5 Star reviews should raise eyebrows and especially when the reviewer gets a free product for posting a perfect score of an item I’m not familiar with for its integrity. If I come across a product that appears to be flawless, after reading reviews and determining they are either paid, fake or both, I will flag some of them. Same goes for stuff I know well and like for its quality and price. Reading a review bashing the item with no reasonable explanation, I will note it. Basically I write a review why we like the goods and give an unbiased opinion, also stating the bad points when they exist.

When I know a particular product and read manufacturers’ notes and descriptions, whether their explanation for content and use seems up to snuff or not, I will give a review and state my reasons for either a thumbs up or down.

I like helping people and giving my opinion in order for others to make their own decisions. Online shopping is a convenience and can be a good experience, saving time and money in a lot of cases. But ya gotta do your homework if looking for something that serves the purpose and provides good long term quality.

MacOS iPadOS and sometimes SOS

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jburk07, WSbobby-p

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