LANGALIST By Fred Langa Windows 11, aka Windows 21H2, is due out later this year but is already causing deep concern among many users. For some, it’s
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It’s way too soon to panic about Windows 11
Home » Forums » Newsletter and Homepage topics » It’s way too soon to panic about Windows 11
- This topic has 46 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 8 months ago.
AuthorTopicFred Langa
AskWoody MVPAugust 9, 2021 at 2:44 am #2382558Viewing 17 reply threadsAuthorReplies-
Alex5723
AskWoody PlusAugust 9, 2021 at 3:13 am #2382562Windows 21H2, is due out later this year
Windows 11 is due in 2 months, October 20.
Unusual way to (maybe) indefinitely pause version upgrades in Win10 Home
Why the need for an unusual way to pause upgrades and babysit Windows 10 Home for weeks when there is the TRV registry hack for home version users ?
1 user thanked author for this post.
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Just another Forum Poster
AskWoody Lounger -
sheldon
AskWoody Plus -
PKCano
Manager -
anonymous
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anonymous
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PerthMike
AskWoody PlusAugust 9, 2021 at 10:33 pm #2382836I was about to say the same thing. Just great, I do corporate support, and trying to keep versions separate (we still use WSUS to block/approve updates we’ve tested) has been an endless battle. Thankfully we have a SOE that we have finally standardised on one version (20H2) that ensures that all our non-standard software runs on, and the confusion the new dual Win10/11 21h2 will cause is a nightmare.
No matter where you go, there you are.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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doriel
AskWoody LoungerAugust 10, 2021 at 4:57 am #2382875same version numbers for 2 different products.
Its the same core, its the same product/service. Different name. Different UI.
I agree with the confusion, but thats just the way it is.Dell Latitude 3420, Intel Core i7 @ 2.8 GHz, 16GB RAM, W10 22H2 Enterprise
HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29
PRUSA i3 MK3S+
1 user thanked author for this post.
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doriel
AskWoody LoungerAugust 9, 2021 at 6:16 am #2382596I think, Windows 10 and Windows 11 are similar, apart of the looks and very few differences. What Windows 11 does, Windows 10 can do it too. The panic about is because people are confused with the last Windows ever and Microsoft advising to buy new computer even with few years old computers.
Its the same with Office 365 – if you look into installation folder, its still the same core as Office 2019.
Its the same peice of code selled twice as two different products with different user interface. I wont waste my time and resources to betatest Windows 11. But if someone wants to, its his choice and respect it.Dell Latitude 3420, Intel Core i7 @ 2.8 GHz, 16GB RAM, W10 22H2 Enterprise
HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29
PRUSA i3 MK3S+
3 users thanked author for this post.
PKCano
ManagerAugust 9, 2021 at 6:33 am #2382598As I understand it, there will be a change in TRV coming to Win10 and Win11.
In Win10, currently, you specify the version you want to maintain – 2004, 20H2, 21H1.
When Win11 is released, the version will be 21H2 also.
There will be a new line in the Registry that designates “ProductVersion” (Windows 10 or Windows 11) and also a line that designates Feature update (21H2, 22H1 etc).Screenshot shows Group Policy settings, but there are equivalent Registry settings that will be determined by the script for Home users. When I get time, I will add information in the Win11 Forum on these changes.
7 users thanked author for this post.
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Tex265
AskWoody PlusAugust 9, 2021 at 4:17 pm #2382785When I get time, I will add information in the Win11 Forum on these changes.
Suggest you also keep the Windows 10 “how to” documentation areas updated.
Windows 10 Pro x64 v22H2 and Windows 7 Pro SP1 x64 (RIP)1 user thanked author for this post.
WSDKS01
AskWoody PlusAugust 9, 2021 at 7:18 am #2382613I have two computers. One is an ASUS laptop with an 10700 CPU and a desktop with a 10980 XE CPU. Both have NVME drives. When I run any of the Windows 11 compatibility tools (except Microsoft) they say that the desktop computer has a legacy boot drive and is not compatible with Windows 11. The laptop is just fine and fully compatible. The desktop has an MBR boot partition while the laptop has a GPT boot partition. It would appear I will have to reinstall Windows on the desktop after converting to a GPT partition. Oh, well. I still have a vacation coming.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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PKCano
ManagerAugust 9, 2021 at 7:38 am #2382633Use the Search box in the right panel. Search for MBR to GPT.
Just to get you started, try these two posts:https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/lets-discuss-secure-boot/#post-2374421.
1 user thanked author for this post.
bbearren
AskWoody MVPAugust 9, 2021 at 8:24 am #2382647Windows 11, aka Windows 21H2, is due out later this year but is already causing deep concern among many users.
Windows 11 will have a registry. It will have a C:\Windows system folder. There will be ways to upgrade on older hardware that does not fit Microsoft’s ‘requirements’.
Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.We were all once "Average Users".b
AskWoody_MVPAugust 9, 2021 at 9:47 am #2382664For example, Win11’s Settings/Storage now lets you perform tasks such as deleting space-hogging, no-longer-needed, automatic roll-back copies of previous Windows versions. To do this in Win10, you’d have to leave Settings, launch a separate disk-cleanup tool, and then dig into its secondary menus.
Not true.
Windows 10 has been able to delete Windows.old via Settings, System, Storage for years:
1 user thanked author for this post.
Alex5723
AskWoody PlusAugust 9, 2021 at 1:05 pm #2382725There will be ways to upgrade on older hardware that does not fit Microsoft’s ‘requirements’
No, there won’t according to Microsoft.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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bbearren
AskWoody MVPAugust 9, 2021 at 2:27 pm #2382759There will be ways to upgrade on older hardware that does not fit Microsoft’s ‘requirements’
No, there won’t according to Microsoft.
Well, of course not, according to Microsoft. According to Microsoft, the B side of my dual boot is not possible, cannot receive updates/upgrades, etc. And yet it has been for a few years without issue. It’s now running 21H1 (OS Build 19043.1110)
Tell you what I’ll do. Once Windows 11 is RTM, I’ll do an upgrade on my 4th generation hardware and post some screen shots for ya. No need to discuss it ’til the RTM, though.
Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.We were all once "Average Users".
Michael432
AskWoody_MVPAugust 9, 2021 at 2:01 pm #2382753I am pretty sure that Windows Update can not be blocked simply by disabling the WU service. That was true on Windows 7, but Windows 10 is very very different. Windows 10 has many services involved in making sure the updates get installed. Some are just watchdog services that make sure the other services are running.I also tried blocking Windows Update with Firewall rules but the system added new rules that over-rode my blocks. My guess is that it does this whenever bug fixes are installed.
Blocking Windows Update from within Windows is a losing game of wack-a-mole. It needs to be blocked in the router by blocking the 6 or 7 or 8 domains that it tries to access. I have done that for quite a while and it works.
If a router has Parental Controls it may be able to block domains. Or, a professional class router, such as pfSense, can do this too.
Get up to speed on router security at RouterSecurity.org and Defensive Computing at DefensiveComputingChecklist.com
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Tom-R
AskWoody LoungerAugust 10, 2021 at 3:10 am #2382855I am pretty sure that Windows Update can not be blocked simply by disabling the WU service … Windows 10 has many services involved in making sure the updates get installed. Some are just watchdog services that make sure the other services are running.
That’s absolutely correct. However, it is possible to block Windows Update from within Windows if you’re determined enough to do it. I successfully blocked Windows Update for well over a year; but it required disabling or otherwise neutering all the following services and/or tasks:
- Windows Update Service (wuauserv)
- Update Orchestrator Service (UsoSvc)
- Windows Update Medic Service (WaaSMedicSvc)
- Windows Remediation Service (sedsvc)
- Windows 10 Update Facilitation Service (osrss)
- AC Power Download Task
- Maintenance Install Task
- MusUx_UpdateInterval Task
- Reboot Task
- USO_Broker_Display Task
- Schedule Scan Task
- Schedule Retry Scan Task
- Maintenance Install Task
- Scheduled Start Task
- SIH Task
- PerformRemediation Task
Initially I disabled these services and tasks manually, experimenting with which ones were essential to blocking Windows Update. Once I found a formula that worked I automated things by queuing up all the necessary commands in the proper sequence in a couple script files — one to disable Windows Update, and one to temporarily enable Windows Update (for once-a-month updating under my control). It’s definitely possible to do this; and I can confirm that it worked reliably for well over a year — once I neutered all the updating tasks and services that Microsoft throws into the mix.
Eventually though I gave WUMgr a try; and compared it to my own method of blocking updates. And it seemed to work just as well as my own script files. For me, WUMgr just seems simpler and more straightforward; and it’s been blocking updates just as reliably as my custom scripts. So for nearly 2 years now I’ve been using WUMgr to handle the updating of my Win 10 systems; and I’ve never yet had an unwanted update from MS sneak past it. The only updates that get installed are the ones I explicitly allow thru.
On the other hand, I’m always open to adding additional defenses. And your method sounds worthwhile:
Blocking Windows Update from within Windows is a losing game of wack-a-mole. It needs to be blocked in the router by blocking the 6 or 7 or 8 domains that it tries to access. I have done that for quite a while and it works.
I’d be curious to know which specific domains it is that you’re blocking, especially since it sounds like your router method has been working pretty well for you even without WUMgr or other blocking methods within Windows. If you wouldn’t mind sharing that list of domains, there’s probably a number of people here that would like to set up similar blocking in their routers. I know I would. You can never have enough defenses against unwanted or untested updates from MS.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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doriel
AskWoody LoungerAugust 10, 2021 at 8:02 am #2382856I’d be curious to know which specific domains it is that you’re blocking, especially since it sounds like your router method has been working pretty well for you even without WUMgr or other blocking methods within Windows.
I cant speak for @Michael432, but for WSUS, we enabled those: (so in order to prevent updates, you should block them)
http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com
http://*.windowsupdate.microsoft.com
https://*.windowsupdate.microsoft.com
https://*.update.microsoft.com
http://download.windowsupdate.com
https://download.microsoft.com
http://*.download.windowsupdate.com
http://ntservicepack.microsoft.com
Dell Latitude 3420, Intel Core i7 @ 2.8 GHz, 16GB RAM, W10 22H2 Enterprise
HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29
PRUSA i3 MK3S+
1 user thanked author for this post.
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Michael432
AskWoody_MVPAugust 10, 2021 at 3:01 pm #2382977Thanks Doriel for your domain list. Interesting in how ours differ.
Things that I block that are not on your list
*.dsp.mp.microsoft.com
*.delivery.mp.microsoft.comInstead of blocking windowsupdate.microsoft.com, I block *.windowsupdate.com. Maybe the same thing?
Rather than dl.delivery.mp.microsoft.com, I block *.delivery.mp.microsoft.com
Like you, I block update.microsoft.com
These domains that you block, I do not
download.microsoft.com
wustat.windows.com
ntservicepack.microsoft.com
go.microsoft.comAgain, my list comes from tracing DNS requests. I could be blocking more than necessary, but so far, it has worked. Fingers crossed. Note that our list of domains seems just a bit shorter than the list of services that an earlier comment suggested blocking 🙂
Get up to speed on router security at RouterSecurity.org and Defensive Computing at DefensiveComputingChecklist.com
1 user thanked author for this post.
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nightshade
AskWoody LoungerAugust 9, 2021 at 2:13 pm #2382754Why not just use the registry to pause the updates until say 2050?
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WindowsUpdate\UX\Settings]
“PauseFeatureUpdatesStartTime”=”2015-01-01T12:00:00Z”
“PauseQualityUpdatesStartTime”=”2015-01-01T12:00:00Z”
“PauseUpdatesExpiryTime”=”2050-01-01T12:00:00Z”
“PauseFeatureUpdatesEndTime”=”2050-01-01T12:00:00Z”
“PauseQualityUpdatesEndTime”=”2050-01-01T12:00:00Z”[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WindowsUpdate\UpdatePolicy\Settings]
“PausedQualityStatus”=dword:00000001
“PausedFeatureStatus”=dword:00000001Alex5723
AskWoody PlusAugust 10, 2021 at 4:15 am #2382870I am pretty sure that Windows Update can not be blocked simply by disabling the WU service
It can be block by number of 3rd party portable free apps :
Free Update Blocker tools to Stop Automatic Windows 10 Updates
Windows Update Blocker
StopUpdates10
Wu10Man
Kill-Update
WuMgr
Win Update Stop
Win Updates Disabler
WAU Manager….2 users thanked author for this post.
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Michael432
AskWoody_MVPAugust 10, 2021 at 2:44 pm #2382976One upside to blocking domains is that it works for all the computers on the LAN. Another is that Microsoft keeps changing Windows Update so there is always a chance that software that used to block WU, no longer does. And then there is the question of what exactly is the software doing? Some of the programs I looked at did not get into the details of exactly what they do. That makes me nervous.
Not that these programs are bad or that they don’t work. My preference however is domain blocking. That said, when it comes time to install bug fixes, unblocking domains is a chore, so I bypass the router using a VPN. Every coin has two sides 🙂
Get up to speed on router security at RouterSecurity.org and Defensive Computing at DefensiveComputingChecklist.com
Rick Corbett
AskWoody MVPAugust 10, 2021 at 5:48 am #2382878It needs to be blocked in the router by blocking the 6 or 7 or 8 domains that it tries to access.
Remember when people blocked Windows Update using the HOSTS file… so Microsoft stopped using HOSTS?
I think you can be fairly certain that Microsoft will randomly rotate sub-domains so blocking domains could easily lead to services other than Windows Update falling over.
Remember the Microsoft 365 outages of last November which Microsoft blamed on “a configuration update to components that route user requests“.
How do you know Microsoft weren’t swapping domain routing around to prevent Windows Update blocking? 🙂
Isn’t that the point of Azure’s cloud.net sub-domains? So routing changes can be propagated easily if virtual IP address blocks are changed on-the-fly to prevent end-users trying to circumvent what Microsoft want?
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doriel
AskWoody LoungerAugust 10, 2021 at 6:10 am #2382880I put those 7 or 8 domains in the reply above. Its awaiting moderation. There are 14 domains in total.
Those domains can be found here: LINKDell Latitude 3420, Intel Core i7 @ 2.8 GHz, 16GB RAM, W10 22H2 Enterprise
HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29
PRUSA i3 MK3S+
2 users thanked author for this post.
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Michael432
AskWoody_MVPAugust 10, 2021 at 2:36 pm #2382970I found the domains that I block by tracing all the domains that a Windows system tries to access when it is doing nothing. You don’t have to wait too long to see Windows Update activity. For this, I suggest the DNS Query Sniffer program by Nir Sofer at nirsoft.net. Mr. Sofer makes excellent software that is both free and portable.
Get up to speed on router security at RouterSecurity.org and Defensive Computing at DefensiveComputingChecklist.com
1 user thanked author for this post.
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doriel
AskWoody LoungerAugust 13, 2021 at 3:37 am #2383427Seems like Ive entered the “rabbit hole” with the program you recommended. I am amazed how many and what addresses are accessed when simply opening promgrams from start menu and launching application. Thanks for recommendation.
Dell Latitude 3420, Intel Core i7 @ 2.8 GHz, 16GB RAM, W10 22H2 Enterprise
HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29
PRUSA i3 MK3S+
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Michael432
AskWoody_MVPAugust 10, 2021 at 2:34 pm #2382969Windows still has a hosts file, but I have heard that for Windows Update it may ignore some domains there. All part of forcing the installation of updates.
I have seen Windows 10 call out to a Microsoft owned DNS server when it could not resolve the needed domains for Windows Update. That is, rather than use the DNS servers from the router, Windows called home to a DNS server that it knew had the right IP addresses. Specifically 162.159.36.2 which is hosted at Cloudflare.
As for rotation domains, this can be dealt with too. There are two ways to block a domain, specific and generic. One way blocks abc.mydomain.com and nothing else. The other blocks any domain that ends with abc.mydomain.com. For ex, it blocks x.abc.mydomain.com and something.abc.mydomain.com. Generic blocking goes a long way.
Get up to speed on router security at RouterSecurity.org and Defensive Computing at DefensiveComputingChecklist.com
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EdwardJimenez
GuestJune 23, 2023 at 2:11 pm #2568273 -
bbearren
AskWoody MVPJune 23, 2023 at 3:04 pm #2568288It’s Cloudflare.
Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.We were all once "Average Users".
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EP
AskWoody_MVPAugust 11, 2021 at 4:49 am #2383063Why not just use the registry to pause the updates until say 2050?
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WindowsUpdate\UX\Settings]
“PauseFeatureUpdatesStartTime”=”2015-01-01T12:00:00Z”
“PauseQualityUpdatesStartTime”=”2015-01-01T12:00:00Z”
“PauseUpdatesExpiryTime”=”2050-01-01T12:00:00Z”
“PauseFeatureUpdatesEndTime”=”2050-01-01T12:00:00Z”
“PauseQualityUpdatesEndTime”=”2050-01-01T12:00:00Z”[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WindowsUpdate\UpdatePolicy\Settings]
“PausedQualityStatus”=dword:00000001
“PausedFeatureStatus”=dword:00000001may not work for certain Win10 versions or editions.
1 user thanked author for this post.
rc primak
AskWoody_MVPAugust 12, 2021 at 3:46 pm #2383320There will be ways to upgrade on older hardware that does not fit Microsoft’s ‘requirements’
No, there won’t according to Microsoft.
There are good reasons not to force an incompatible system to upgrade to Windows 11. One is a probable large performance hit with all the required security enabled on an older chip or hardware configuration:
Others have reported that turning on Secured Core features on Intel’s 6th-gen Skylake would impact performance by as much as 30 percent, which might explain why fairly recent 6th gen chips got cut. But what explains Intel’s $2,000 18-core Skylake-X chip? We initially thought the CPU was a mirror of the cores from the mainstream version, but it turns out the Skylake-X cores are revised supports running HVCI as well as Kaby Lake does.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/3623713/why-windows-11-is-leaving-so-many-pcs-behind.html
That’s a big performance hit. And it can also happen with some 7th-gen Intel chips.
Microsoft had to draw the line somewhere. They chose to be sure the user experience would not suffer too horrendously.
-- rc primak
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Tom-R
AskWoody LoungerAugust 12, 2021 at 5:25 pm #2383340They chose to be sure the user experience would not suffer too horrendously.
Based on how Microsoft seems to have shown very little regard for much of the user feedback to Windows 10 over the past few years, I doubt that they care very much at all about the “user experience“.
From that same PCWorld article:
There’s also the larger question of why Microsoft won’t simply let people turn off those security features if they slow down the computers so much, but that’s a different discussion around how forward Microsoft wants to move the chain on improving the baseline security of every Windows 11 PC.
And if your (somewhat) recently purchased PC is incompatible with Windows 11, well that’s just too darn bad. Users are clearly not smart enough to decide for themselves if those new security features are worthwhile enough to justify scrapping and replacing their current systems. So instead of providing an option for users to choose how to balance security versus performance, we’ll just make the decision for you. How user-friendly.
In other words, MS knows what’s best for you. You will be assimilated!
2 users thanked author for this post.
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Alex5723
AskWoody PlusAugust 13, 2021 at 5:23 am #2383438bbearren wrote:
There will be ways to upgrade on older hardware that does not fit Microsoft’s ‘requirements’For example :
A tool for installing Windows 11 on unsupported hardware in a one click installer.
Easily run a single executable and have access to Windows 11 through the dev channel without having to worry about unsupported hardware.
Execute the program named: WinPass11Auto.exe. You should be asked by UAC to run as administrator, if not, re-run as administrator.
But this app installs dev version.
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bbearren
AskWoody MVPAugust 13, 2021 at 10:26 am #2383466WinPass11 v0.1.2
A tool for installing Windows 11 on unsupported hardware in a one click installer. Easily run a single executable and have access to Windows 11 through the dev channel without having to worry about unsupported hardware. Execute the program named: WinPass11Auto.exe. You should be asked by UAC to run as administrator, if not, re-run as administrator. But this app installs dev version.
Unnecessary. I don’t use One-Click-Wonder apps for anything.
Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.We were all once "Average Users".
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bbearren
AskWoody MVPAugust 13, 2021 at 10:10 am #2383461There are good reasons not to force an incompatible system to upgrade to Windows 11.
Not necessarily.
One is a probable large performance hit with all the required security enabled on an older chip or hardware configuration:
“Required” is a relative term. Windows 11 will have a registry and a C:\Windows folder.
Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.We were all once "Average Users".rc primak
AskWoody_MVPAugust 12, 2021 at 4:54 pm #2383335On the last part of Fred’s article:
My original concept for Windows 10 Home vs. Pro: A real-life test drive (AskWoody Plus 2021-07-19) fell through at the 11th hour.
Fred — I hope you do come back to this topic. I would find it very interesting to get your perspective on this. Especially if there are changes in the differences as Windows 11 gets rolled out.
-- rc primak
1 user thanked author for this post.
Stephanie_Sy
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Rick Corbett
AskWoody MVPAugust 17, 2021 at 8:35 pm #2384350Getting back to the topic title…
I believe Microsoft’s almost sole raison d’etre for Windows 11 is to force users into a walled garden like its cash-rich rival Apple ecosystem (and, to a much lesser extent, Amazon), not just to implement DRM* but, as a side-benefit, to stop inveterate ‘tinkerers’ (like me) from fiddling under the bonnet.
It will be trivial for Microsoft to force-implement full telemetry that many/most users currently restrict to minimal and just as trivial – using the same ‘fingerprinting’ used for detection of malware – to prevent third-party tools currently used to block Windows Updates. The same goes for the registry. Why block access to certain keys when you can block access to the entire registry?
Remember also that TPM chips have unique serial nos. that are remotely identifiable… and trackable over the internet.
Despite what it puts out for consumption, I believe Windows 11 is for Microsoft’s benefit… not ours. As a result I’m not going to panic… but I’m preparing myself to mourn the passing of individual freedom when it comes to the next Windows… due in ~2 months. 🙂
*I haven’t seen it myself (‘cos I have ‘News’ and advertising disabled) but note that Microsoft is apparently already advertising the availability of movies. This, I believe, is why DRM is so important to them. They know that kids stream and view movies on their PCs/laptops. What if Microsoft held the keys to the digital kingdom now shared between Netflix, iTunes and Amazon? A walled-garden revenue stream just ripe for harvesting. (Except I think this will backfire in Microsoft’s face.)
1 user thanked author for this post.
RetiredGeek
AskWoody PlusJune 23, 2023 at 7:58 pm #2568309I’m currently running Win 11 Pro on my unsupported i7-7700 with a TPM 2.0 and I really can’t see any performance hit? Actually, Outlook loads faster than when I was on Win 10!
Of course I can’t enable Core Isolation, not because of the hardware but rather because of drivers that Logitech has not updated for my G710+ Keyboard and CX920 Webcam.
I’ve got StartAllBack installed so I don’t have to relearn the UI and everything is just fine as far as I’m concerned. This is a 6 year old system that has, and continues to, serve me well. I really don’t need it to be much faster as my aging brain has trouble keeping up now!
1 user thanked author for this post.
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TechTango
AskWoody PlusJune 23, 2023 at 11:35 pm #2568339 -
RetiredGeek
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