Alex in the forum posts about Microsoft’s latest announcements about their “Windows 365” product. (yes yet another groaner of a name from Redmond, let
[See the full post at: Is your next PC a cloud?]
Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher
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Patch reliability is unclear. Unless you have an immediate, pressing need to install a specific patch, don't do it. |
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Is your next PC a cloud?
- This topic has 61 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 9 months ago.
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Thanks both for your article. I was thinking about it recently a lot, but I just cant see the purpose of those “weak versions” of the cloud PC. Im talking about the 1vCPU, 2GB RAM, 64 GB storage, for example..
web-based office? and custom call center application? I just cant see why I should go with this solution instead of buying a PC, that I can buy without VAT for my company and I have some “inventory” at least. And I can open the web-based office on my own. Cause I have a internet connection that is used to connect to the RDP. Stronger VMs look better, they could run some BI on the background, I consider that as usefull.These machines should have ZERO patching issues. None. Zilch. In theory at least.
Cool, now microsoft wants me to pay money for escaping buggy updates, that we did not ask for and that we are complaining about all the time. Very clever.
I can understand, that someone needs computing power above his available options. Or streaming, or gaming servers. But really Office 365 through the edge? Are they trying to achive something they are not telling, or what?
Until Microsoft comes with some cheap available terminal (or free with subscription) for end users, it seems like overkill to me and its not much viable.
My next PC will definately by physical computer.Dell Latitude 3420, Intel Core i7 @ 2.8 GHz, 16GB RAM, W10 22H2 Enterprise
HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29
PRUSA i3 MK3S+
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A point to consider : Windows 365 solves the ‘Why Not Windows 11’ compatibility problem.
Everyone is invited to Windows 11.1 user thanked author for this post.
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Alex5723 wrote:
Windows 365 solves the ‘Why Not Windows 11’ compatibility problem.Well, yeah, I suppose so, but I think you’re sort of thinking about it backwards…
Microsoft’s recently announced plans for Windows 11 introduce a compatibility problem that Microsoft hopes will drive Windows 365 subscriptions/revenue.
Hope this helps.
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Except consumers.
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Is your next PC a cloud?
Easy answer, one word: NO!
(I actually wanted to make that “No” two words, but I held back since there’s the lounge rule about no swearing.)
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Susan,
Thank you for the “Heads Up”. This sounds to me like just ANOTHER reason to stick with our Win 7 SP 1 machines. They may be a bit OLD and a bit SLOW, but they ARE reliable. No logical reason to get rid of them.
Keep up the good work.
Dave
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I agree with you, absolutely: 100%
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The “Cloud” was, is, and always will be someone else’s computer.
I don’t use it and never plan to. I don’t trust the Cloud with my data. There’s no way I would ever trust the Cloud to host a PC.
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My thoughts exactly. As inexpensive as hard drives and backup storage devices are these days, there is absolutely no reason why I need or want to use the Cloud to store my data or host any programs that I want to run.
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I have suspected that this was Microsoft’s long game intention from the very first time that I read about Windows 10 updates being “free” and “the last Windows ever”. And here we are, instead of buying a copy of Windows and using it for many years, Microsoft will now make it available on a subscription basis, hoovering up money every, single, month. :-O ( And if you want to use your online PC from your own PC, you get to use the already-paid-for copy of Windows to open a browser and login to the pay-as-you-go copy of Windows). Perhaps this will increase sales of Chromebooks and help the adoption of Linux?
Every company drools at the prospect of a steady stream of income for very little effort, thus the stampede to subscription based everything. I’ve even read that car companies plan to start offering some of the options on their vehicles on a subscription basis. Would you like to have heated seats? They were installed at the factory and really, YOU paid for them already, but if you would like to use them, just sign in and subscribe to our seat warmer service.
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I’ve even read that car companies plan to start offering some of the options on their vehicles on a subscription basis.
Off topic, but.. of course, this is very likely to happen in Europe soon. Car sharing
But to be honest, I really dislike the idea of sharing my seat with someone else. Ppeople do not take care about “shared things” and they behave like they can actually break it. No consequences. If the car is your own, you take care of it. Who will take care about thing, that is public? noone, thats who.Perhaps this will increase sales of Chromebooks and help the adoption of Linux?
Not sure, because people will do what you want them to do, if you scare those people – we all know that.
Your system might be insecure! Update now!
You dont want MS account? Really continue with limited fuctionality?
Still using Windows 7? Your creditcard might be in danger!Im trying to use humor here, but I hope you get my idea. No cloud Windows PC for me neither, please.
Dell Latitude 3420, Intel Core i7 @ 2.8 GHz, 16GB RAM, W10 22H2 Enterprise
HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29
PRUSA i3 MK3S+
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Little by little, day by day, year by year, we are all slowly being trained and conditioned to accept that if you use the internet for anything, for any reason, you give up your right to privacy and your right to choose who and what you share information and data with about yourself and those connected with you.
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Susan, quoting from an article: “Another tool is called Project “Orland” and is touted as “…. a new experience in Partner Center to help cloud solution provider (CSP) partners grow their cloud businesses by sharing Microsoft-powered insights about their customers to improve account management. CSP partners will get recommendations from their existing customer base such as customers with trial conversion potential, customers who may need follow-up engagements or customers ready for new workloads to deploy.” I raised my eyebrow a bit on that description. Okay Mr. or Ms. Consultant, you are explaining to your customer that you are spying on them, yes? It will be interesting to read that eula.”
” Cloud solution” is a delusion fed by the wish to make lots of money by offering more services that few have asked for, but company bosses might like because they have heard that will save them money and trouble, and believe it – or else don’t want to be regarded as old fogies out of touch with the new and cool “tech”.
It might be a “solution”, the day that the “tech” providers and “Cloud”-enthusiast wanna-be big-money-makers find a way to make “the Cloud” immune to attacks, so far repeatedly successful, by various kids of bad actors, some with the full faith and credit of their national governments behind them. Of course, when money, lots of it, are smelled in the wind by many so-called Captains of Industry and their big investors, these just forge right ahead, without letting such petty concerns bother them.
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV3 users thanked author for this post.
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Yesterday my cable modem got fried by a lightning strike. That was the only item in the house that got hit. My computer still worked just fine. My NAS still worked just fine.
Where would my cloud computer be? Waiting for a cable technician? Luckily I have a spare modem, and after three calls and speaking to two different agents (the first one kept telling me my modem was offline), I spoke to an agent who listened to my problem. took the modem ID and MAC address from me for my spare that was already plugged in and showing good lights, but not recognized/activated on their end, pushed the activation, and I was back online.
If my “PC” was in the cloud, I would have had to wait at least a week for the first available technician.
No, thank you very much, I’ll keep my PC in hardware, right here.
Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.We were all once "Average Users".5 users thanked author for this post.
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If my “PC” was in the cloud, I would have had to wait at least a week for the first available technician.
Unless you had a spare modem. And you expended considerable effort with those three calls to get your “worked just fine” computers back online anyway. So I don’t see much difference, as most of us find limited use for a computer with no internet connection.
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…most of us find limited use for a computer with no internet connection.
Sure, losing Internet access is going to limit your ability to get things done. You’re not going to be able to do any online banking, online shopping, online forums (like AskWoody here), etc. But with my locally controlled (non-Cloud) PC, I still have access to all my locally stored data and I have full functionality of all my installed applications.
I can still run Quicken, and enter receipts and reconcile accounts. I still have access to all the statements and invoices that I received or downloaded from my credit card companies, banks, Amazon, etc. before losing Internet access. I can still organize and edit all my photos (which are also stored locally, not in the cloud). I can go thru my To-Do List in Outlook and compose replies to emails that need a response — even if they just get queued up in my Outbox waiting for Internet access to return. I can still record broadcast TV shows to my computer’s hard drive via a rooftop antenna. And I can create tutorials on my computer (recording the screen) to video files, which I can also edit offline without any Internet. I also have access to all my locally stored client files via a locally stored database; so I’m able to communicate with and support clients by phone even with my Internet connection being down.
Try doing any of those things without having Internet access if your PC only exists “in the Cloud”.
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I still have access to all my locally stored data and I have full functionality of all my installed applications.
I don’t think you fathom how much your OS and software already depend on being online.
Do you think you would even be able to install an application (notwithstanding that we get them from online sources almost exclusively now) without your computer being able to access online Certification servers?
I also generally prefer local functionality myself, but I’m sorry to say we have already left complete autonomy behind with operating systems quite a few major versions older than the ones we have now.
-Noel
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Noel, I don’t at all disagree that we’re very much living in an online world now. Yes, we need the Internet to download and install software. And we rely on the Internet for everything — email, banking, shopping, education, etc. It’s become a basic utility that we all rely on — like electricity and water. But just like any infrastructure there will always be interruptions in service — sometimes just briefly for minutes, but occasionally for hours or even days.
My point is that if my PC is only something virtual (in the Cloud) that’s only available to me while the Internet (and the hosting web services) are up and running, then I’m completely dependent on that infrastructure to get anything done. If and when it goes down, my virtual PC is completely useless — a boat anchor.
But with an actual “real” PC sitting on my desk with its locally resident software (yes, previously installed and activated via the Internet), and with all my data safely available on local directly attached storage, I can keep getting work done regardless of the state of my Internet connection — or of Microsoft’s W365 servers. I can still work on my To-Do list in Outlook and compose reply emails to queue up in my Outbox (to send when service is restored). I can still sort thru previously downloaded receipts and invoices, and enter transactions into Quicken or QuickBooks registers. I can still create and edit Word documents, PowerPoint presentations, and videos, etc. etc.; and sync up those documents with others later.
Bottom line: I can still be getting productive work done with an actual real PC — even without the Internet or Microsoft’s W365 servers. With a virtual Cloud PC, I’m completely dead in the water.
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Two decades ago, when I began equipping my home office with an internet computer and an offline computer, part of the reason was that the latter booted faster and ran better because it wasn’t trying to deal with the internet. While the difference has narrowed, this is still true.
Over time, the offweb computer has become the one that does the heavy lifting, with specialized software, large files, and several attached hard drives. The internet computer–the same model, purchased at the same time–is armed to the teeth with AV and related programs, but otherwise it is comparatively streamlined, holds few large files, and has no attached drives. It takes about 90% less time to image it. Nonetheless, the offline computer runs with fewer complications.
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I have a machine here still running Win 7 that’s got several dedicated purposes, which do not include general purpose “going online” activities, though it IS connected to the network.
It’s still running Windows 7 because that works just fine for what it needs to do. In fact, it’s been running the VERY SAME edition of Windows 7 at the same patch level since 2017. All is well, and in fact it hasn’t even needed a reboot since early 2020.
For now it seems we can continue to run these “mostly offline” systems. In my case it’s because Win 7 really doesn’t need any patches or ongoing online connectivity to continue to work. But that was just about the last version of Windows that could really work that way. And in my case at least for this system I have zero need to run any software newer than the time I stopped keeping it up to date. That won’t keep forever, but it should be good for a few years yet.
I’d be curious to know whether any newer OS than Windows 7 has been successfully set up to work without an online presence. For a while I ran Win 8.1 on my main development workstation that way as well, but that ultimately became unreasonable as there WAS newer software I needed to run that simply no longer supported Win 8.1. Ultimately I had to run a fully up-to-date Windows 10.
My point here is that we can
a) exit the mainstream and continue computing with an increasingly out-of-date system, and while it will continue to do what it did (assuming the hardware doesn’t burn out) it will ultimately be more or less useless.
b) ride the mainstream wave and open the floodgates to cloud computing. We aren’t there yet, but we can all plainly see the writing on the wall.
Microsoft (or any other commercial OS maker) has no incentive to support a middle ground. Ultimately those of us who want to continue running our own computers will probably have to run operating systems that are not in the commercial mainstream.
-Noel
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…And you should know I’m no fan of Unix/Linux, but if it’s that or having to use a cloud computer exclusively, you can be sure I’ll get to know Linux.
My small Win 7 system is now 6 years old. I suspect the hardware will fail at some point. Nothing lasts forever. Then what? I’ll have to either fix it or get a new, small Win 10 system to take its place. I doubt I’ll be able to run Win 10 anywhere near as restrictively as that old Win 7 system, which has been trimmed of any/all ongoing “as a service” type activities.
Maybe Windows Server?
-Noel
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Unless you had a spare modem. And you expended considerable effort with those three calls to get your “worked just fine” computers back online anyway. So I don’t see much difference, as most of us find limited use for a computer with no internet connection.
I don’t disagree. I did have a spare modem, and there’s a reason for that, which came into play yesterday. I have multiple drive images, and there’s a reason for that, as well.
I have a full drive image of my NAS OS, and I could restore the EFI partition in a couple minutes if it ever became necessary.
But how many others prepare at this level? My wish for home users is not to shield them from Microsoft Bugaboos, but to have them learn how to deal with those issues when they come up, and keep smilin’.
Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.We were all once "Average Users".1 user thanked author for this post.
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It’s going to be a hard sell to home users too — or to anyone who’s just plain tired of shelling out more money every month for subscriptions that keep piling on new looks and features that most users have little need for or interest in getting. And that’s on top of all the other monthly subscriptions for cell service, cable, Netflix, DoorDash, Amazon Prime, etc. etc. At some point, people are going to say STOP, enough is enough.
But of course, a Windows 365 subscription to replace every real hardware PC is Microsoft’s ultimate goal with this new “cloud PC” strategy of theirs. Apparently they’re not getting enough revenue from Office/Microsoft 365. So they need this new Windows 365 nonsense to try and suck even more users into their subscription-based Nirvana.
It seems like we’re devolving back to the last century where end users had dumb ASCII terminals connecting thru dial-up phone lines to some big corporate timeshare systems. Only now, instead of dial-up phone lines, we’ve graduated to high-speed Internet connections and high-res displays. Big whoop! What users will end up with at their home or office is going to be basically nothing more than those dumb terminals from the mid 20th century — useless boat anchors when the network connection goes down. And they’ll be paying a monthly subscription for the privilege of having those boat anchors on their desks.
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most of us find limited use for a computer with no internet connection
Unless you are a corporate / business user. If that is where the product is aimed it may be a hard sell.
cheers, Paul
You think office workers don’t need an internet connection?
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I don’t know about “most of us,” but I have long had two desktop computers in my home office, one with internet access and the other offline (air gapped) except to update software now and then. This arrangement has saved my bacon many times. A third computer is completely offline and runs a scanner using Windows XP.
The usual advice regarding backups is to have at least one backup on a cloud service to protect against theft fire, or other disaster at home. But those backups are secondary to others kept on a local hard drive. Other than that, I have little use for putting my stuff on “somebody else’s computer.”
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The real issue here, as I see it, is not about “connectivity”: it is about not becoming a casualty in the currently hotting up cyber war.
As anyone paying attention to the epic cyber attacks that happen repeatedly, in quick succession and are often in the news, including in numerous and frequent postings here, at AskWoody, and because of which a great many people have had their personal and business information stolen, or made hostage for ransom, by crooks and by shady military cyber-attack organizations, not to mention the assaults against critical public infrastructure that, these days, are largely controlled and, or run with computer networks that need some Internet access.
Does anyone believe that somehow, magically, “the Cloud” is invulnerable to such attacks and that, if they place their important stuff in it, it will be kept perfectly safe there?
This is the world we live in. Given that, should someone who is worried about “connectivity” see “the Cloud” as a practical solution? Really?
Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).
MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV4 users thanked author for this post.
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Not a chance in hell I’d ever voluntarily store my personal data in the cloud nor would I ever use a cloud based OS. Given Microsoft’s history of outages, no thanks. Office goes out for a couple of hours, frustrating but livable. The OS goes out… not acceptable.
And as for patching, I can’t see why they’d treat this any different than the current mess. Preview patches released to the cloud OS and unfixed vulnerabilities and so on. Sounds like a total nightmare to me.
This is the final nail in the “It’s my pc” coffin. The only control I have left is when I turn the power switch off.
** Yes, my email is stored in the cloud for the 10 minutes it takes Thunderbird to check and download it. That’s not what I mean by personal data.
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Is there an equivalent to this Windows 365 in either the Mac or Linux/BSD spheres?
No. But Chrome OS was there first.
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How usable is it without an Internet connection? I’d imagine you can do offline work in office-equivalent apps that gets synced whenever a network connection is available.
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The Cloud PCs can be accessed from Win PCs, iPhones, iPads, Android devices, probably Linux. So the ” office-equivalent apps” syncing doesn’t apply.
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Being a bit open-minded here: I personally do not have a use for a cloud PC, but I can see instances where businesses may find it useful. With work-from-home having become a forced necessity due to the pandemic, a lot of businesses and companies have had to adapt overnight, and this is probably Microsoft’s response to that.
One benefit I can see, for Windows 365 for businesses, is that it would allow employees to access work computers from home, without the business having to deal with sending work laptops home or having their employees directly manage company information on personal devices. It would also allow employees to use whatever device they want, so employees who would rather not use Windows at home don’t have to keep a Windows machine around for work. I personally use a Mac (having switched from Windows), and this could possibly allow me to use Windows-only programs that my employer needs me to use without having to fire up a virtual machine (mind you, I love my virtual machines, but I can’t say the same for my employer).
This might be seen as cheaper for businesses if it saves them the maintenance and upkeep costs of work laptops (although Microsoft doesn’t appear to have announced any prices yet, so the jury’s still out on this one), so depending on your job, this may or may not be something you’ll have to deal with eventually. It’s not yet available for home and personal use, so no—my next PC will not be the cloud. At least, not for personal use. I’m quite happy with my Mac and my Windows virtual machines.
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One thing to keep in mind that the $30 a month is JUST the operating system, it does not include Microsoft 365 which would be on top of that. The price has leaked out on an Ignite slide. I’ll be signing up for one just to test and to see if I can get just one and only one.
Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher
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…the $30 a month is JUST the operating system, it does not include Microsoft 365 which would be on top of that.
It also doesn’t include a whole lot of cloud storage either. If my understanding is correct, I believe the low end Windows 365 would only get you 128 GB. Also for anyone who needs apps beyond the basic Office/Microsoft 365 suite, that would be extra as well.
So let’s just price out the cost for a hypothetical single user — where he/she can’t split the cost among multiple family members or co-workers. Here’s our hypothetical test case. It’s a single user who wants a Windows cloud PC with all the Office apps (Word, Excel, Outlook, etc.), as well as QuickBooks, Adobe Illustrator and Acrobat Pro. And our test case user needs around 2TB of cloud storage for data. Here’s what the monthly subscription costs might look like:
- $30 – Windows 365 (with 128 GB storage)
- $ 7 – Microsoft 365 (with 1 TB storage)
- $10 – Microsoft 365 1 TB storage add-on
- $25 – Intuit QuickBooks Simple Start (single user)
- $21 – Adobe Illustrator
- $15 – Adobe Acrobat Pro
Add all those monthly subscriptions up, and it comes to $108 per month. That’s a yearly cost of $1,296. And the absolute worst part about the whole deal is that after shelling out all that money over the course of the year, the user owns absolutely nothing. It’s basically all money that has been paid out to his software “landlords” in rent. Oh, and if the landlords decide they’re not getting enough revenue coming in, they can opt to “raise the rent” at any time with very little advance notice.
The 20th Century idealistic dream of personal computing is rapidly becoming just a 21st Century nightmare of corporate greed.
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Windows 365 Cloud PC is not intended for families or home users, and does require an Azure subscription and Enterprise E3 license.
But which corporate position would require QuickBooks AND Illustrator AND Acrobat Pro?
It seems like you may have chosen those programs just because they are relatively expensive monthly subscriptions.
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I saw on a tweet that this is designed for small business. The “sweet spot” is supposedly 10. Quickbooks would indeed be in that mix if true.
https://twitter.com/marypcbuk/status/1415749125744824329
“W365 Business is designed for ‘very small businesses’; around 10 people is the sweet spot, I was told – but it would work for one person. maximum is 300 users. I talk more about the admin portal W365 Business has instead of using MEM here”Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher
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I really don’t see MS allowing other than up-to-date MS products (at least) on their servers. Windows, Office, etc.
And I don’t see them giving administrative rights to install anything the customer wants on them either. They will probably charge for installing the extra programs, not even considering the security aspects of customers’ vulnerable, possibly out-of-date, or buggy software.4 users thanked author for this post.
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Depending on the admin choices, users can rename, reboot and troubleshoot their Cloud PCs from the portal. “If my admin allows me to be a local admin, I could theoretically install software that could put the machine into a bad state. This gives me a low-level Azure Resource Manager restart that puts that machine back into a good state.”
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As I understand it, it’s just a virtual machine. Microsoft wouldn’t control the install of apps. I’ll let you know for sure on 8/1 when it opens up.
Windows 365 vs. Azure Virtual Desktop (AVD) – Comparing Two DaaS Products – Nerdio (getnerdio.com)
Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher
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From this initial announcement it is clear it is designed for business use at this point. In my opinion Windows is (slowly) going the subscription route.
We may see a consumer version of this “Cloud PC” in the future. However, a consumer version of this probably won’t work unless the user has a “reliable” internet connection, and how many people can say that, even in the US?
Anyway, for me I will never use any of this. I won’t trust Microsoft (or any other company offering such services) to store my important personal data “in the Cloud” not do I want to pay another monthly fee just for the right to use a “Cloud PC”. Is that Microsoft (or other companies) Cloud never going to be hacked? Is it never going offline?
No, no thanks. I will trust myself to keep my own data locally and I will never use (never mind pay for) such a product.
Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.
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I honestly have reliable Internet. My cell phone is my fallover backup.
Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher
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Somehow I’m reminded of the future portrayed in several films…
-Noel
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My point is that if my PC is only something virtual (in the Cloud) that’s only available to me while the Internet (and the hosting web services) are up and running, then I’m completely dependent on that infrastructure to get anything done.
You hit the nail on the head.
As many moving “parts” as we might say a modern PC might need in order to work the way we want it, a cloud PC would require two more things on top of all that to function properly: the Internet connection and the servers from the cloud service. It’s two additional points of failure; the system becomes that much more brittle.
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Very simply, if it’s in the Cloud, it’s NOT a Personal Computer.
As others have mentioned, it’s a return to the age of walled-off mainframes and dumb terminals. There might be use cases for that (as there are for Chromebooks), but let’s stop calling such things a “PC”. It isn’t. Period.
Win 7 Pro, 64-Bit, Group B ESU,Ivy Bridge i3-3110M, 2.4GHz, 4GB, XP Mode VM, WordPerfect6 users thanked author for this post.
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