Is Win8 better than Win7 behind the curtain?

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User-interface issues aside, I’m wondering if the underlying architecture of Win8 Pro makes it preferable to use over Win7 Pro? I’m about to install a new OS and have both available. I have no interest in the Win8 gee-whiz interface; I don’t have a touchscreen; no UEFI capability, and I would use it from the desktop after installing Start8. I just want something more stable, and perhaps improved.

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The machines on which I have Win8 boot faster than when they had Win7. I don’t notice as many of the annoying network related slowdowns when using Windows Explorer that I had with Win7. I’ve noticed that for some of the monthly fixes required for Win7 & IE9 there have not been corresponding Win8 & IE10 fixes. I do not spend much time on a laptop but supposedly the power management has been improved.

If you want to much more detailed description of what went into Windows 8 see Building Windows 8[/url]. This is a blog from the Windows engineering team which has a great many detailed entries on what Microsoft management considered to be important to share.

Joe

--Joe

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I have read that memory is more randomized in Windows 8 than in Windows 7, which means that it is harder for malware to take over your PC, because it is not able to anticipate which areas of memory will be available, and what will be in those areas of memory.

Also, there are certain nice features like Hyper-V (virtual machines) and auto-continuous backup of changes which occur in specified folders.

These features would, in my opinion, satisfy your requirement to have a more stable, improved OS.

On the negative side, they say it is next to impossible to boot to Safe Mode; and there’s no more F8 key initiating a factory rebuild, at least not from the Windows side.

I would like to install Windows 8 so that I can get familiar with it, because I am an IT professional. I would also like to see if I would like it or not. I missed my chance recently to get a cheap copy from Microsoft. Hopefully I can find a cheap copy in the near future.

Those who have installed it and have stuck with it for a while almost unanimously say that they would never go back to Windows 7.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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It very much depends on what you intend to use the OS for.

Many home users, will notice a look and feel difference, but will not be concerned at all about the under the bonnet changes.

The ASLR changes mrjimphelps mentions are documented improvements, but Microsoft have not made public (for obvious reasons) what improvements these are and how much of a difference they make.

Secure Boot was recently a topic discussed in this forum and can under certain circumstances lead to improved security during boot time, but can also have undesired effects if the user is perhaps classed as a power user.

Backup schemes are improved, particularly in automation, but still do not really enter the realm of the better drive imaging applications.

Some features such as system monitoring and diagnostics are improved (task manager being an obvious one).

Speed of system response has been reported to be better, but is often subjective. I have seen results of a very limited study into a clean installed Windows 7, a fully patched Windows 7 and a new clean install of Windows 8 and there are measurable speed improvements in Windows 8. From my personal point of view however, those improvements are relatively minor and I suspect many reported speed improvements are comparing apples with oranges in terms of clean system versus old system.

Personally speaking, I have evaluated Win8 and work with it from time to time, but it will not be my main OS of choice for a very long time, if ever. This is not because I don’t like it, but mainly because I have to take a risk managed approach and installing Windows 8 on my user base would give me huge headaches of user training and consume a lot of time and resource testing and configuring for our environment which I simply can’t afford to divert from other more pressing tasks. I still support XP and am busy migrating my users to Win7; the latter being our OS of choice moving forward for several years.

Is Win8 better? Possibly, maybe…maybe not, it depends…but is an orange better than an apple?…..no it’s an orange and is different to an apple, even if it can be covered in an apple skin.

It is entirely possible you will receive many different views. My best advice would be to download the free 90-day Enterprise trial version of Win8from here, take it for a spin and make your own choices.

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@op

It very much depends on what you intend to use the OS for…

My best advice would be to download the free 90-day Enterprise trial version of Win8from here, take it for a spin and make your own choices.

This.

I have my own views as to why I now prefer W8 but they not be applicable for your own use.

As Retired Geek & Tinto Tech say, take it for a test run.

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Auggie,

IMHO if you don’t have a touch screen stick w/7. I’ve been using 8 all the way back to the previews. I use it every day on my main machine because I’m trying to give it a fair trial.
Win 8 Pros

[*]Better security, but that’s just out of the box. If you follow a good multi-layered security plan you shouldn’t have any problems with 7.
[*]Quicker boot
[*]Better resource allocation
[*]Secure boot (if you have UEFI bios)

Win 8 Cons

[*]Looks like Win 3.1 {Aero may have been a pig but I did like the way it looked}
[*]Flipping between desktop and Modern UI {every time I try to look at a picture attached to an email}
[*]Finding commands that have moved – relearning in general of things I’ve known how to find for years!
[*]No Start Button {remember this is MY opinion – no flaming needed} I’ve installed StartIsBack to fix this.
[*]Makes dual booting harder unless you replace the Win 8 boot loader.
[*]Metro UI apps are still beta in my opinion.

In the end I’d recommend, if possible, that you get some time in on a Win 8 machine and then make up your own mind. After all you’re the one who has to be happy with it. HTH :cheers:

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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I’m of the opinion, for a large screen home system, if one scrapes off Windows 8, puts a few things back in place, Windows 7.5 is still there and I give it half a point to represent half a step forward; most of the time was spent developing the Modern interface I think. The rest you’ll probably have to make peace with, one way or another. There may be added issues or alternative techniques needed to address problems if anything goes wrong but dealing with those on your initiative by making regular images will mitigate those. I second the notion that the apps are in beta; actually I would say they are in the computing equivalent of the Stone Age.

More stable? Well, it doesn’t seem to be any less stable from my experience than Seven or XP as long as one doesn’t do anything odd or test bed oriented like I was. To each his or her own experience there, my XP builds since about the time of SP3 have been the most stable of any since 2004 (SP2).

Of course if ever planning on going to a touch interface at any time in the future then Windows 8 is the one and only Windows choice.

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I have Windows 8 Pro installed as a dual boot on my desktop and laptop. To reduce the hassle of the Windows 8 bootloader, I junked it – I’m using the Windows 7 boot loader. I’m tinkering with Windows 8, but not really using it, and don’t have anything installed other than StartIsBack and Registry ToolKit.

If I can get it to run the way I like to run Windows, I might start using it more, but Windows 7 is my OS of choice. I’ve never had any stability issues with Windows 7. The only bluescreens I’ve ever had were both caused by failing hardware.

I don’t care for touch. I don’t even like it on my phone (I wish they still made the Motorola Razr V3).

Oh, and my own speed tests between my fresh install of Windows 8 vs my old install of Windows 7 (on identical hardware, since I’m dual booting) showed nothing noticeable. Windows 8 might boot faster, but then I don’t shut down, so boot times for me are meaningless.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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I don’t care for touch. I don’t even like it on my phone (I wish they still made the Motorola Razr V3).

My apologies but I had to add my comment here. Until now I thought I’m last “Indian” left who liked V3. Thank you bbeearren.;)

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RG, I believe if your set your Defaults Programs in Control Panel, you can eliminate the Metro use for opening images in your emails. Mine all open with desktop apps (Picture Viewer or Photo Gallery) whichever I prefer. I can also use other apps if I choose.

As most know, I am one of those that will not go back to Win 7. I have conventional mouse and keyboard laptops without any touch. Looks and feels like Win 7 with the added security and speed advantages.

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IMO Windows 8 is pretty much Windows 7 with a new interface, which many PC users hate. However, if you boot to the desktop and add a desktop toolbar to the taskbar you will hardly notice any difference – only lack of a start button. And you can add this if you have to with an app.

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RG, I believe if your set your Defaults Programs in Control Panel, you can eliminate the Metro use for opening images in your emails.

Duh!, Thanks Ted works like a charm. :cheers:

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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I was told that the 90-day trial no longer works – can anyone confirm?

I have Win 8 Pro 64-bit on my main system in dual-boot with Win 7 also 64-bit. Slowly moving my programs to it and just about all the important ones seem to work properly. Don’t care about lack of Start button as the tiles on the “Modern” screen perform the same function plus I use Desktop taskbar as I do in Win 7.

Not sure which bootloader I am running although I used EasyBCD to configure it.

System is an hp Pavilion (bought as a refurb) with AMD 3 GHz dual core and 4 GB RAM.

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I am downloading 90 days trial now. Finally gave up and want to try.

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http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/10/better-on-the-inside-under-the-hood-of-windows-8/3/
and
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/10/gentlemen-start-your-benches-measuring-windows-8s-performance/
This says it all, with graphic details.

Yes, Windows 8 is better than Windows 7 under the hood in many, many ways.

I particularly like the better user interface when copying multiple files to multiple locations with Win 8 Pro vs. Win 7 HP. Simultaneous transfers, clear indicators of progress, and better use of my four hyperthreads in my Intel Core-i5 processor. Cuts by about half the time needed to back up my data. Windows 8 is also more efficient in transferring large files (like System Backup copies).

By the way, the article also demonstrates that Chrome is more efficient under Windows 8 than IE 10. I have experienced this, especially when streaming videos or doing large downloads.

I have corrected an incorrect Web Link at the top of this post. Which makes BruceR’s reply seem unnecessary now.

-- rc primak

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http://www.extremetech.com/computing/138177-under-the-hood-of-windows-8-or-why-desktop-users-should-upgrade-from-windows-7

Which is dated October 23, 2012, and not really relevant to today’s installed base. Some of the “improvements” make absolutely no difference whatsoever to the average user. As of February 2013, the Windows 8 growth rate in the desktop market is slower than that of Windows Vista, and waaayyy slower than that of Windows 7.

Truth is, some folks say it’s better, some folks say it is a step backward, some don’t even care enough about Windows 8 to express an opinion.

The only way you’ll be able to learn anything of relevance to you is to download and install the 90-day free trial version of Enterprise and try it out.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Which is dated October 23, 2012, and not really relevant to today’s installed base. Some of the “improvements” make absolutely no difference whatsoever to the average user. As of February 2013, the Windows 8 growth rate in the desktop market is slower than that of Windows Vista, and waaayyy slower than that of Windows 7.

Truth is, some folks say it’s better, some folks say it is a step backward, some don’t even care enough about Windows 8 to express an opinion.

The only way you’ll be able to learn anything of relevance to you is to download and install the 90-day free trial version of Enterprise and try it out.

Not to argue with you, as I have a similar low opinion of the future of Windows RT. And Windows 8 Pro will probably suffer as its less-capable cousin goes down the toilet.

But I do find that on the technical side, that ExtremeTech article is fully up to date. The facts and test-bed results are reasonably objective, and tests were conducted under well-controlled conditions. Only the Chrome and IE 10 versions have been updated, so that little line in my post could be criticized as dated.

The issue with Windows 8 is not its under the hood robustness. The performance improvements and most of the security improvements are beyond question.

The reason folks do not like and will ultimately reject Windows 8 is the User Interface, which has changed in a jarring way.

But only if you use the Modern (Metro) side of the OS. Which I seldom do.

If you want to see the probable future of personal computing, head over to liliputing.com and take a look at their top dozen or so entries on the main page. Things are getting smaller, and user interfaces are no longer subject to being customized unless you enjoy rooting Android or putzing around with little Linux distros on impossibly small devices.

Almost all of these devices are made in China by Chinese companies or Samsung, and nearly all run Android or little Linuxes. Almost all the programming is done by folks in India. The main draw is the very low prices and the very simple installation of these “liliputers”. Some plug into a HDTV, while others stand alone and require only a bit of reconfiguration to turn them into unlocked open-sourced operating environments with many, many available Apps.

This is what a publication about Windows Secrets should be reporting on. Even though the site has almost nothing with the words Apple, iPad, Windows or Slate in it.

Personal computing can be done simpler and cheaper than Microsoft and Apple have brainwashed consumers into believing. The Small-Tech devices are beginning to become more flexible and more powerful. Yes, this is Bleeding Edge today, but within two years, I see an explosion of cheap, full-powered, user-configurable (but fully configured if you don’t want to bother with tweaking) Small-Tech devices flooding the American market. By then, the user interfaces and full system configurations will have been developed. Prices will rise a bit, but not into the rarified air where present-day Apple and Microsoft tablets and smartphones are. Even an ordinary HDTV will be able to run Android, Google Play and Open-sourced Linux Apps.

Windows 8 and Apple iOS are the state of the art today, and they are about half-baked. But the future of consumer-level computing seems to me to point in an entirely different direction — with nary a Windows device in sight.

Feel free to disagree — there’s room for a lot of discussion about these trends.

Note that I am referring to the articles at this site, not the ad-hype “Top 30 Products” list or anything else like that.

-- rc primak

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If you want to see the probable future of personal computing, head over to liliputing.com and take a look at their top dozen or so entries on the main page.

Almost all of these devices are made in China by Chinese companies or Samsung, and nearly all run Android or little Linuxes.

25 of their top 30 products run Windows. :confused:

Bruce

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25 of their top 30 products run Windows. :confused:

Bruce

I wasn’t looking at their Top 30 Products, which I take as advertiser hype. I was looking strictly at their articles, which you should do before criticizing the one detail of my post where you THINK you find a loose string.

Their Home, Top News and Reviews areas do not deal much with Windows, and not at all with anything from Apple.

Their Deals and Top 30 do deal with Windows, but only the smallest Windows PCs. Still nothing related to Apple.

By the way, the discrepancy between what shows up in a Top 30 Products list vs. what’s showing up in the articles may be due to the considerable lag between the bleeding-edge devices and techniques the articles are mostly about vs. the finished and ready to use today products which the site can review and nominate for Top 30 Products.

It’s the difference between tomorrow’s tech (the articles) and today’s best offerings (the list). Both may in fact be right. I was never saying you can buy the small-tech devices of two years from now today (although you can follow the articles and build or mod your own prototypes).

The future is NOT Windows or Mac laptops and desktops. Look at recent sales figures if you need proof of that. Small-tech does sell, even in this Recession. And bigger form factors are falling by the wayside.

Perhaps, to show clearly what has excited my interest in the site, I should concentrate your limited attention on the “mini-PCs” section of the site:
http://liliputing.com/tag/mini-pc

-- rc primak

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I wasn’t looking at their Top 30 Products, which I take as advertiser hype. I was looking strictly at their articles, which you should do before criticizing the one detail of my post where you THINK you find a loose string.

…

Perhaps, to show clearly what has excited my interest in the site, I should concentrate your limited attention on the “mini-PCs” section of the site:
http://liliputing.com/tag/mini-pc

If you provide a single link in a long off-topic post inviting discussion then it’s quite a BIG detail.

My attention is only limited by your ability to point to what you’re really talking about.

You said, “take a look at their top dozen or so entries on the main page.”

So I did. And the vast majority included Windows 8.

The mini-PCs don’t have screens.

Don’t look like PCs to me.

Bruce

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If you provide a single link in a long off-topic post inviting discussion then it’s quite a BIG detail.

My attention is only limited by your ability to point to what you’re really talking about.

You said, “take a look at their top dozen or so entries on the main page.”

So I did. And the vast majority included Windows 8.

The mini-PCs don’t have screens.

Don’t look like PCs to me.

Bruce

Your definition of a PC may need to be updated. Think of these as the next generation of Smart TV or Tablet prototypes.

If you read into the site, you will find that through a variety of peripherals, these PCs (OK, CPUs) can be used just like any Smart TV sticks, or be set up in modular mobile configurations. The possibilities are nearly endless.

And they are not running Windows or iOS or MacOS. In fact, the ARM chipsets they incorporate can’t run any Windows other than RT, which isn’t available on the open market. But some do run Linux, sometimes full installations, on SD Cards or USB sticks.

If we’re drifting away from the original topic of the thread, it wouldn’t hurt my feelings if a new thread were started in the Lounge for this discussion under Hardware, Mobile Devices or some other appropriate topic.

-- rc primak

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The reason folks do not like and will ultimately reject Windows 8 is the User Interface, which has changed in a jarring way.

But only if you use the Modern (Metro) side of the OS. Which I seldom do.

True true true; not only that its changed in such a jarring way but that that interface and apps are so inept on a large home screen, hence the controversy and everyone who likes it, makes their peace with it by adjusting the interface and staying almost exclusively on the desktop. Color me less than impressed with a company that leads with the shorter, club-footed leg.

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http://www.extremetech.com/computing/138177-under-the-hood-of-windows-8-or-why-desktop-users-should-upgrade-from-windows-7

By the way, the article also demonstrates that Chrome is more efficient under Windows 8 than IE 10.

How? That article doesn’t mention Chrome or IE10.

Bruce

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How? That article doesn’t mention Chrome or IE10.

Bruce

Oops! wrong link. I meant to link to this non-technical article , and to the benchmark tests posted here[/COLOR] . (Page Two is filled with the browser benchmark results.) Both articles refer to the RTM Version of Windows 8 Pro.

I was fatigued when I posted that, and I got to the wrong line in my browser favorites list.

-- rc primak

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I particularly like the better user interface when copying multiple files to multiple locations with Win 8 Pro vs. Win 7 HP.

I went with Teracopy and still would in a heartbeat since I most often make two copies of everything produced, and they are produced at several workstations and aggregated at two independent network locations. So I set one target location as a copy process and the other as a move process and I’d rather not have three or four simultaneous copy/move processes going to the same target drive at the same time as I think that would have to create a lot of fragmentation and slow the process more than a factor of the number of copy processes going on, in short the target drives would be getting overtaxed.
So with Teracopy I can que all those tasks from one workstation, copy first, then the move, from three or four different stations to two backup stations, anywhere from 28 to 60 gigs most times, and it just gets the job done. From what I’ve seen of Windows copy/move processes it just sort of starts them and if another is added it starts that as well regardless of possible duplicity of data (copying/moving the same data set to two or more locations) or number of source data sets headed for one target location.

I think the real comparison of such features should be is it as good as or better than third party freeware, if not, doesn’t mean much if its just better than the last version of Windows. Same thing applies to home networking; if one puts shortcuts to home network locations into a folder and makes that a toolbar, its better than any of the Microsoft network discovery techniques for any version; and so on.

That’s why these improvements are so subjective, because tools are readily available for XP and 7 and 8 that are better than those built in.

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I think the real comparison of such features should be is it as good as or better than third party freeware, if not, doesn’t mean much if its just better than the last version of Windows.

Like Windows drive imaging, for another example.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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I went with Teracopy and still would in a heartbeat since I most often make two copies of everything produced, and they are produced at several workstations and aggregated at two independent network locations. So I set one target location as a copy process and the other as a move process and I’d rather not have three or four simultaneous copy/move processes going to the same target drive at the same time as I think that would have to create a lot of fragmentation and slow the process more than a factor of the number of copy processes going on, in short the target drives would be getting overtaxed.
So with Teracopy I can que all those tasks from one workstation, copy first, then the move, from three or four different stations to two backup stations, anywhere from 28 to 60 gigs most times, and it just gets the job done. From what I’ve seen of Windows copy/move processes it just sort of starts them and if another is added it starts that as well regardless of possible duplicity of data (copying/moving the same data set to two or more locations) or number of source data sets headed for one target location.

I think the real comparison of such features should be is it as good as or better than third party freeware, if not, doesn’t mean much if its just better than the last version of Windows. Same thing applies to home networking; if one puts shortcuts to home network locations into a folder and makes that a toolbar, its better than any of the Microsoft network discovery techniques for any version; and so on.

That’s why these improvements are so subjective, because tools are readily available for XP and 7 and 8 that are better than those built in.

I have no problems with Windows 8 adding to hard drive fragmentation. Simultaneous transfer processes to the same partition are handled well in this regard in Windows 8 in my experience.

It is exactly TeraCopy’s queueing which slows it down so much. Without this queue factor, TeraCopy might be competitive with Windows 8 for my purposes.

My operations are similar to yours, except that my external drives are directly connected to two laptops, not on network connections. I need speed, not fragmentation reduction. I have Auslogics to take care of fragmentation when the need arises. There, a third-party app is definitely better than anything any Windows version has built-in so far.

-- rc primak

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Without all the technobabble, and in a nutshell…….

Windows 8 does appear to run faster than previous OS’s on most computers.

I have it loaded and running on a 8 year old eMachine and it’s running like a champ, on only 2 gig’s of ram.
It runs virtually the same on my main PC, a newer PC with 4 gig’s of ram.

But I set it up for myself just like I set it up for my customers. The first thing I do is install the latest version of the “Classic Shell” program that causes the OS to jump right to the desktop on bootup, and restores the START button and start menu.
Other features that we were used to in XP are restored as well.

Then installing Mozilla Firefox, Shockwave, Flash and Java make the install complete.
Win-8 does not do DVD’s so adding VLC or some other DVD player takes care of that.

All the Security software that I currently run on XP, also loads and runs on Win-8. There are however a couple of programs that I have to “Run as Administrator”. I set that option in the ‘Properties’ of the shortcut that runs the programs.

I have several customers who went right from XP to Win-8, when their old XP machine gave up the ghost. When I get done with my custom setup, they can’t even tell that they are not still on XP, except their new machine is MUCH faster.
Most of the speedup tweaks and tips that worked on Win-7, also work just fine on Win-8.

Most people don’t give a hoot, about ram management, or any of that techno stuff. They just want something that works and that will run their favorite programs, get their email, etc.
And for the old time user of Outlook Express, Windows Mail CAN be activated and set up to look just like OE6 and their old address book and saved email CAN be imported into Windows Mail, if it can be saved off of their old hard drive.
I think the process for doing that was written up somewhere on this forum. I know it was on the Windows 8 forum.

Cheers Mates!
The Doctor

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I have it loaded and running on a 8 year old eMachine and it’s running like a champ, on only 2 gig’s of ram.

Evidently you’re running Windows 8 32-bit?

The first thing I do is install the latest version of the “Classic Shell” program that causes the OS to jump right to the desktop on bootup, and restores the START button and start menu.

Classic Shell is a 3rd party program, or does it come with Windows 8?

Win-8 does not do DVD’s so adding VLC or some other DVD player takes care of that.

Do you mean that it does not write DVDs, or that it does not play DVDs?

Thanks.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Classic Shell is a 3rd party program, or does it come with Windows 8?

3rd party.

Do you mean that it does not write DVDs, or that it does not play DVDs?

Play.

Bruce

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I have it loaded and running on a 8 year old eMachine and it’s running like a champ, on only 2 gig’s of ram.

I have Windows 7 Ultimate 32bit running on a 10 year-old Dell Latitude D800 with a 1.6GHz Pentium M CPU and 2GB RAM. It doesn’t do Aero, but then neither does Windows 8. And yes, Windows 7 runs a bit crisper than XP, which I still dual boot on that laptop. The only bluescreen the D800 has ever had was a failing graphics card (which I replaced) when it was still running XP. I had to Vista-ize that graphics card driver in order to install Windows 7 Ultimate, but the graphics card driver was the only thing Windows 7 installer didn’t like.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Same here except XP is faster than 7, but I do have the aero package working and I always had higher end video cards in relation to the rest of the hardware. Only time I ever bluescreened is when I installed the wrong wireless adapter driver. Had to do a command line restore to get out from under that early boot BS.

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Auggie,
An unequivocal yes. It is stable, and no more difficult than 7 using desktop only and Classic Shell or one of the other third party “boot directly into desktop with a start button” programs.

You might however want to try the whiz bang tiles with a 60 buck add on touchpad later, and discover the rest at your pleasure or not.

Maybe an experienced touch perspective may help. I started out with Win 7 fairly new machines, none with touch, and bought four Windows Pro licenses and got four media center licenses free. I did three “keep everything” non-clean installs, and one clean install on a maxed RAM almost new laptop running a crucial M-4 SSD.

I had some minor issues and went with classic shell on all my machines save one.

My only touch machine at the time was an Android Samsung Galaxy tab 10.1.

I want out of all things Google. So I bought a used Surface RT 32GB with keyboard that was less than a month old for $400.00. Loved the functions but thought it had all main Office apps and found it did not have Outlook or support IMAP both of which I use. I do not do Gmail or want a cloud anything preferring all of my data local and private. The desktop has no programs for it just Word, PP, Excel, and One Note. I thought. Like most I was looking for a computer not a tablet.

I hated being flipped into tiles with no touch and like most here avoided changing my habits or taking advantage of the great new interface because I could not. I hated the Surface RT at that point a month ago, and planned to sell it for what I had in it easily. Since my whole premise was to find a new tablet for my wife who suddenly wanted me to share mine when originally she thought getting it was silly. I wanted a touch tablet with full Windows and saw the Yoga as too big and heavy, the Surface pro with fans and heat as too expensive and heavy, and most of the other Windows 8 solutions did not hit the sweet spot.

Until I found the HP Envy X2 hybrid. This is what I am typing on now, and what I use daily. Simply put it is a dual core Atom 1.8 small ultrabook. But the screen houses all and hot detaches from the keyboard becoming an 11.6″ tablet that is just as comfortable in the hand. But this is not a review of the Envy, if you want that go here: http://www.amazon.com/HP-11-g010nr-11-6-Inch-Convertible-Laptop/dp/B00AFUKXCU

My point is that until one has a touch machine to use daily, the tiles are to be avoided. But once I started to use the Envy, I did the gesture tutorials, and using Windows 8 tutorials, and found that having used 8 since the first developer’s preview, I really did not know 8 at all.

I love the tiles and the apps, all the swipe screens and options after a couple of weeks become more intuitive than mouse use. Having multiple apps open and opening closing and switching between them is easier than mousing in some ways, and as good in the rest.

Every comment was dead on from a crippled perspective of no touch. Would a touch monitor fix that? For me no. I don’t like switching from keyboard/touchpad to touch screen when docked. Just before I got the Envy X2 I reverted my two main machines back to Win 7. My wife has the Quicken machine and feels more comfortable with 7, as 8 initially caused some scan online deposit issues with our HP printer that were since fixed, but I had a K-400 Logitech keyboard for my entertainment center PC and the built in touchpad gave me a taste of control over the touch side. I decided to order the new Logitech glass Windows 8 touchpad that is wireless and rechargeable, and slap my Windows 8 hard drive back in my main desktop. (I cloned my Win 7 systems to another drive and removed the Win 7 drive, installed the cloned drive, then upgraded that with all data and applications so I could switch back and forth easily.) I am not recommending it yet as I have not owned it yet. But with all Win 8 gestures I think using it instead of a mouse I can do all the gestures needed to continue to use the great apps I like, like USA today, Bing News, and Bing Financial apps. I detest the default music player and photo viewers even with touch. However there are other apps and the full win 8 X2 hybrid, as all full 8 machines do, has windows media player I pin to the desktop to play my music. So now that I learned touch tiles from the hybrid we kept the Surface RT too and love it as a tablet with benefits, as it has fully functional Office programs and soon may have Outlook too. But she uses the Surface as a tablet for consumption not for Outlook mail which she does not use. She uses Windows Live mail and has a live account so it works for her.

Under the hood 8 is better, but not enough to justify doing a full price upgrade with no touch capabilities if you already have Win 7. In that case stay with 7.

If you just want to do Win 8 and only use the desktop then for that non-touch use I agree with all the preceding comments that it is a bit better but no worse than 7 using the desktop only. Then you can try the Logitech touchpad like here:http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Rechargeable-Touchpad-Multi-Touch-Navigation/dp/B0093H4WT6/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1365097966&sr=1-1&keywords=logitech+touchpad

If you have the option of choosing the machine and want a desktop replacement full touch hybrid for speed and storage the Yoga runs circles around my very capable Envy, but my main use is tablet, not desktop replacement.

I am not an MS fanboy. But apparently unlike many who post about 8, I use it both with full touch, and on a desktop, and am about to merge the two with a test of the above touchpad.

But until I actually owned and used Windows 8 full touch, I would have huffed and puffed and not believed this post.

The Surface is not a failure until it is. It is spectacular as a touch tablet, much better than the Galaxy.

After a month of final testing of the Envy and then putting the Surface back in service instead of selling it, we sold our laptop, netbook, as the Envy takes the place of a laptop perfectly, and saves dragging along a tablet and separate chargers and accessories. I also sold the Android Galaxy Tab and all the intrusive apps. So we are now two MS tablets, one a hybrid with 15 hours of battery run time as a laptop, seven hours as a tablet using only that battery. The Surface goes for about three days between charges at about three hours of actual use a night. And three desktops two with Windows 8, one with 7.

It took all that for me to actually “get it.” When I only had non touch desktops and laptop, it was impossible to learn any of it, and reading about it becomes obvious to those who do it. I am sure there will be those who hate it in touch too. But the learning curve was way less than the learning curve for Android.

If you can afford the hardware get a Surface Pro or even better the Yoga, or if you catch it on sale as I did for $525.00 get the Envy X2 as long as you don’t need scads of onboard storage or a gaming/multimedia machine as my Envy only has 2GB RAM.

Sorry about the long post but there are folks that will feel challenged by my post who don’t use Windows 8 touch daily. Their non-touch experience does not apply to the half of the new Windows experience some of us are being very impressed with surprisingly, once we get some touch equipment. For the rest, using the desktop in 8 is nothing to worry about as a normal user.

Hope that completely different perspective helps, albeit long.

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Auggie,
An unequivocal yes. It is stable, and no more difficult than 7 using desktop only and Classic Shell or one of the other third party “boot directly into desktop with a start button” programs.

You might however want to try the whiz bang tiles with a 60 buck add on touchpad later, and discover the rest at your pleasure or not.

Maybe an experienced touch perspective may help. I started out with Win 7 fairly new machines, none with touch, and bought four Windows Pro licenses and got four media center licenses free. I did three “keep everything” non-clean installs, and one clean install on a maxed RAM almost new laptop running a crucial M-4 SSD.

I had some minor issues and went with classic shell on all my machines save one.

My only touch machine at the time was an Android Samsung Galaxy tab 10.1.

I want out of all things Google. So I bought a used Surface RT 32GB with keyboard that was less than a month old for $400.00. Loved the functions but thought it had all main Office apps and found it did not have Outlook or support IMAP both of which I use. I do not do Gmail or want a cloud anything preferring all of my data local and private. The desktop has no programs for it just Word, PP, Excel, and One Note. I thought. Like most I was looking for a computer not a tablet.

I hated being flipped into tiles with no touch and like most here avoided changing my habits or taking advantage of the great new interface because I could not. I hated the Surface RT at that point a month ago, and planned to sell it for what I had in it easily. Since my whole premise was to find a new tablet for my wife who suddenly wanted me to share mine when originally she thought getting it was silly. I wanted a touch tablet with full Windows and saw the Yoga as too big and heavy, the Surface pro with fans and heat as too expensive and heavy, and most of the other Windows 8 solutions did not hit the sweet spot.

Until I found the HP Envy X2 hybrid. This is what I am typing on now, and what I use daily. Simply put it is a dual core Atom 1.8 small ultrabook. But the screen houses all and hot detaches from the keyboard becoming an 11.6″ tablet that is just as comfortable in the hand. But this is not a review of the Envy, if you want that go here: http://www.amazon.com/HP-11-g010nr-11-6-Inch-Convertible-Laptop/dp/B00AFUKXCU

My point is that until one has a touch machine to use daily, the tiles are to be avoided. But once I started to use the Envy, I did the gesture tutorials, and using Windows 8 tutorials, and found that having used 8 since the first developer’s preview, I really did not know 8 at all.

I love the tiles and the apps, all the swipe screens and options after a couple of weeks become more intuitive than mouse use. Having multiple apps open and opening closing and switching between them is easier than mousing in some ways, and as good in the rest.

Every comment was dead on from a crippled perspective of no touch. Would a touch monitor fix that? For me no. I don’t like switching from keyboard/touchpad to touch screen when docked. Just before I got the Envy X2 I reverted my two main machines back to Win 7. My wife has the Quicken machine and feels more comfortable with 7, as 8 initially caused some scan online deposit issues with our HP printer that were since fixed, but I had a K-400 Logitech keyboard for my entertainment center PC and the built in touchpad gave me a taste of control over the touch side. I decided to order the new Logitech glass Windows 8 touchpad that is wireless and rechargeable, and slap my Windows 8 hard drive back in my main desktop. (I cloned my Win 7 systems to another drive and removed the Win 7 drive, installed the cloned drive, then upgraded that with all data and applications so I could switch back and forth easily.) I am not recommending it yet as I have not owned it yet. But with all Win 8 gestures I think using it instead of a mouse I can do all the gestures needed to continue to use the great apps I like, like USA today, Bing News, and Bing Financial apps. I detest the default music player and photo viewers even with touch. However there are other apps and the full win 8 X2 hybrid, as all full 8 machines do, has windows media player I pin to the desktop to play my music. So now that I learned touch tiles from the hybrid we kept the Surface RT too and love it as a tablet with benefits, as it has fully functional Office programs and soon may have Outlook too. But she uses the Surface as a tablet for consumption not for Outlook mail which she does not use. She uses Windows Live mail and has a live account so it works for her.

Under the hood 8 is better, but not enough to justify doing a full price upgrade with no touch capabilities if you already have Win 7. In that case stay with 7.

If you just want to do Win 8 and only use the desktop then for that non-touch use I agree with all the preceding comments that it is a bit better but no worse than 7 using the desktop only. Then you can try the Logitech touchpad like here:http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Rechargeable-Touchpad-Multi-Touch-Navigation/dp/B0093H4WT6/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1365097966&sr=1-1&keywords=logitech+touchpad

If you have the option of choosing the machine and want a desktop replacement full touch hybrid for speed and storage the Yoga runs circles around my very capable Envy, but my main use is tablet, not desktop replacement.

I am not an MS fanboy. But apparently unlike many who post about 8, I use it both with full touch, and on a desktop, and am about to merge the two with a test of the above touchpad.

But until I actually owned and used Windows 8 full touch, I would have huffed and puffed and not believed this post.

The Surface is not a failure until it is. It is spectacular as a touch tablet, much better than the Galaxy.

After a month of final testing of the Envy and then putting the Surface back in service instead of selling it, we sold our laptop, netbook, as the Envy takes the place of a laptop perfectly, and saves dragging along a tablet and separate chargers and accessories. I also sold the Android Galaxy Tab and all the intrusive apps. So we are now two MS tablets, one a hybrid with 15 hours of battery run time as a laptop, seven hours as a tablet using only that battery. The Surface goes for about three days between charges at about three hours of actual use a night. And three desktops two with Windows 8, one with 7.

It took all that for me to actually “get it.” When I only had non touch desktops and laptop, it was impossible to learn any of it, and reading about it becomes obvious to those who do it. I am sure there will be those who hate it in touch too. But the learning curve was way less than the learning curve for Android.

If you can afford the hardware get a Surface Pro or even better the Yoga, or if you catch it on sale as I did for $525.00 get the Envy X2 as long as you don’t need scads of onboard storage or a gaming/multimedia machine as my Envy only has 2GB RAM.

Sorry about the long post but there are folks that will feel challenged by my post who don’t use Windows 8 touch daily. Their non-touch experience does not apply to the half of the new Windows experience some of us are being very impressed with surprisingly, once we get some touch equipment. For the rest, using the desktop in 8 is nothing to worry about as a normal user.

Hope that completely different perspective helps, albeit long.

Good, well substantiated perspective. Thanks for that.

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Under the hood 8 is better, but not enough to justify doing a full price upgrade with no touch capabilities if you already have Win 7. In that case stay with 7.

I would have to agree also.

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Ya, there’s no argument whatsoever with a device that was designed for Windows 8 or RT, only comparisons to be made between manufacturers.

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Take a look at Getting started with Win 8 for some tips on getting started. These tips might make the first hour easier.

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Thanks for asking the question for me too! Not to mention the exact answer we got from JoeP517.

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Fair enough, but Teracopy has the start now option if I want, so it has everything the Windows 8 process has (except for the nice meter graphic as it transfers) with the added ability to stack as I want since I’m never sure of transfer speeds and think that if the move task caught and passed the copy task (on the same data set), the copy task would error out before completion. Copy to both locations would work but then there are additional backside management issues, both in time to locate and delete the source location files and being certain those files were indeed transferred if not fresh in my mind that make that technique undesirable.

I also wonder how much drive chatter there would be copying/moving the same data to two different locations at the same time. Enough to affect transfer speed? Overwork the drive? I dunno.

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Fair enough, but Teracopy has the start now option if I want, so it has everything the Windows 8 process has (except for the nice meter graphic as it transfers) with the added ability to stack as I want since I’m never sure of transfer speeds and think that if the move task caught and passed the copy task (on the same data set), the copy task would error out before completion. Copy to both locations would work but then there are additional backside management issues, both in time to locate and delete the source location files and being certain those files were indeed transferred if not fresh in my mind that make that technique undesirable.

I also wonder how much drive chatter there would be copying/moving the same data to two different locations at the same time. Enough to affect transfer speed? Overwork the drive? I dunno.

I don’t think it’s really Windows 8 OR TeraCopy. Each has its place, and each has its best uses.

And yes, the rate of data transfer can slow a lot when making simultaneous transfers to the same locations. Windows 8 does try to manage hard drive thrashing, but it isn’t perfect. It is however, pretty amazing, if you ask me. I’ve cut by half my backup and file copying times when doing monthly maintenance by using Windows 8 as opposed to TeraCopy under Windows XP. (I haven’t used TC under Win 7 very much.)

One of my portable drives is sensitive to overwork (it overheats) and Windows 8 doesn’t seem to make matters any worse — or any better.

-- rc primak

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User-interface issues aside, I’m wondering if the underlying architecture of Win8 Pro makes it preferable to use over Win7 Pro? I’m about to install a new OS and have both available. I have no interest in the Win8 gee-whiz interface; I don’t have a touchscreen; no UEFI capability, and I would use it from the desktop after installing Start8. I just want something more stable, and perhaps improved.

To Answer Auggie’s original question, W8 is better under the hood. Even without UEFI it has better memory management and is harder for malware to get a toehold. It is faster but I find that a marginal difference and some of its tools are better, like task manager. I have used W8 since the first review release and moved to it being my primary OS since the RTM in August 2012. I use Android on my tablet and Linux on my server but for my day to day work I prefer W8 without Start8 or Shellstart. The Start screen is more configurable and easier to organize than the W7 Start Menu and is one key stroke away just as the Start Menu was, (tap the windows key). The desktop will start if you put a desktop app into startup or with one keystroke if you put the desktop or a desktop app in the top left of the start screen (tap enter key). I think that the “Metro” style apps are currently very poorly implemented and although I have tried many of them I don’t use any. Hopefully this will get better but I’m not holding my breath, look at the increasing volume of junk on Android and iPad.

I still use W7 on my TV “Windows Media Center” but may change when I have tested the W8 version of WMC.

Most things about an operating system are subjective but the underlying architecture is fundamental to its stability. There is enough information from the professionals out there, much of which has been linked to from this blog, to demonstrate that the underlying OS is better than anything previously released by any OS provider that the answer to your question is Yes. Whether you want to use it is clearly subjective as are most of the answers.

I like W8 better than any previous OS from CP/M onwards.

Bob

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I prefer windows 8 as it is faster than windows 7. Its features and graphics are also advanced.

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