Is it time to move to Windows 11?

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ISSUE 19.50 • 2022-12-12 WINDOWS 11 By Lance Whitney Microsoft is increasingly aiming its latest enhancements at Windows 11 instead of Windows 10. Doe
[See the full post at: Is it time to move to Windows 11?]

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I’m starting to sound like a broken record – all those new features in Windows 11 are mostly window-dressing. Where are the fundamental improvements? Like: can Explorer handle long file names yet? And what about those things for systems managers? Like creating a custom default user profile the ‘XP’-way. Or a little overhaul for Sysprep, that gem that makes you tear out your hair when throwing in a wrench creating an image. Etc. Sigh.

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Enable Long File Name Support in Windows 10 | ITPro Today: IT News, How-Tos, Trends, Case Studies, Career Tips, More

Actually windows 10 can handle long file names.  Typically you are limited because the thing you are saving to isn’t new enough to handle long file names or your applications won’t.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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TechTango, Cybertooth

Yes, Windows ‘an sich’ can handle long filenames for a long time. Most application too. Not so for Explorer / Filemanager…

I’m sorry but this is such a poorly written article, almost like it’s an advertisement as if just to fill the weekly Newsletter.

All the downsides you pointed out- you’re right about them and that is something everyone complained about when Windows 11 was available to test. Microsoft adding unnecessary extra steps to perform the same tasks, dumbing down various things making them a pain in the ass every time we want to use them, limiting installation due to the absence of certain hardware even though it can run, adding so called “improvements” that are more like 2-steps back than 1-step forward, etc

And the “benefits” over the predecessor- Snap is more or less the same as Win10, maybe some slight improvements but that can also be implemented in Win10. Virtual desktops are no different. I doubt anybody uses Widgets that simply eat up resources; even if you do the only source is Microsoft itself (Bing). Does people even use Teams? Discord/TeamSpeak for gaming, Slack for work and Skype for whatever remains is still what I see in my friends and colleague circle.

“For gamers, Windows 11 enhances the speed, performance, and compatibility of demanding PC games” -this is simply untrue. There is no performance difference between gaming in Win10 vs Win11, even with the latest gen hardware given Win11’s new CPU Scheduler is said to use the P- and E-cores better. In fact some of my games take longer to start up and some games that use anti-cheat software (eg, FaceIT AC for CSGO) refuse to work at all. Some of the others have also given me headaches when they run perfectly fine once and then don’t another time which never happened in Win10 for me (using since Sept. 2015).

Sure 22H2 brought some good improvements. The Tabbed File Explorer for example, which in case anyone forgot was also scheduled for Win10 as Sets but got cancelled. For me the drawbacks still outweigh the benefits. We shouldn’t have to resort to using third-party software to use the OS as we are used to. DirectStorage is still missing.

Microsoft have taken multiple steps back and are taking one step forward and getting praise for it. As we all know, this seems to be the Tock in the Tick-Tock release of Windows where every Tick is a good release (10, 7, XP) and every Tock is a worse one (11, 8/8.1, Vista). Here’s hoping the already leaked Windows 12 goes back to being a good one.

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I agree with you 100%. Nothing about WIN 11 is useful for me. Moreover, my computer isn’t compatible with the “upgrade.” I’m not a gamer and Win 10 22H2 serves all my needs very well. As long as Quicken will run on Win 10, I’m sticking with what I have.

As with Win 7, I’m hopeful that O Patch will be available to support Win 10. The last thing I need to waste my money on is to have to buy a new computer just to run  some useless “bells and whistles”. 2025 will tell the tale.

Peace, CAS

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BobbyB, kdock, OldMainframeGuy, GoJuNenMae1970, Charlie, SuperSaint, Cybertooth

Based on what I have read, I totally agree with you. I have no plans to upgrade until it becomes absolutely necessary.

anonymous wrote:

As we all know, this seems to be the Tock in the Tick-Tock release of Windows where every Tick is a good release (10, 7, XP) and every Tock is a worse one (11, 8/8.1, Vista).

I would put both Vista and 8.1 above Windows 10 .

The thing about “good” and “bad” Windows version is that these ratings are completely relative.

When I first saw Windows 8.x, I was still using Windows XP. I was, of course, appalled by 8.x. Because of this, when I finally moved off of the 32-bit XP platform, I went to Windows 7 x64 rather than 8.1 x64, which was then available.

I used 7 until 10 came along in July 2015. I tried 10, was appalled again, and went back to 7 to let 10 “bake” a while longer. I had then naively assumed that MS would listen to customer feedback and fix 10 as it had with Vista. Most people don’t seem to realize that Vista became a solid and decent OS in its own right, but only after most people had moved back to XP. These people never saw the improved Vista, and their impressions of Vista remain frozen in time at the point where they decided to leave it behind.

By the time the next feature update came along (1511), I could see that Windows 10 was never going to improve in the way I wanted, because the anti-features that made me dislike it (the lack of a single off button for telemetry, the lack of control over updates, the ads, the “am I a phone or a PC?” UI, stuff like that) were not oversights, but were instead core features in Microsoft’s plan for everyone’s PCs.

That was when I made my main PC into a dual-boot (Win 7/ Linux). I knew I was going to have to migrate to Linux, and if I was to get serious about that, I had to be able to run Linux bare-metal on my main hardware. A VM would not suffice for this.

I later upgraded Windows to 8.1, after I became aware that I could remove most of the silly touch UI (on a non-touch PC) and end up with a quicker, leaner version of 7. I rather liked 8.1… the very same OS that appalled me just a short time prior. After seeing what a really bad version of Windows looked like (meaning Windows 10), I wondered why I had disliked 8.1 so much. Relative to 7 or XP, my standards of reference at the time, 8.1 was awful, but compared to 10, it wasn’t so bad.

It was possible to remove most of the bad stuff from 8.1. Classic Shell (now Open Shell), 7+ Taskbar Tweaker, and Old-New Explorer fixed a lot. I used a script for Powershell along with a command line tool called install-wim-tweak to rip out all of the “apps” (Metro/Modern stuff). I used Metro Blocker to make sure Charms stayed blocked (they were blocked with Classic Shell also) and to prevent any errant remaining Metro bits from appearing. At that time, the whole Control Panel was still intact except for a few things, like the Bluetooth and Wifi configuration bits, so blocking Metro was a lot more feasible than blocking the phone-y bits of 10 would be now. Clicking the wireless or Bluetooth icons in the 8.tray brought up Metro dialogs, which would not work anymore, so I installed the Intel Proset software for Wifi and the Toshiba stack for Bluetooth.

That was the last version of Windows I used as an actual bare-metal OS. It took less time than expected to make the jump. I had been using both as a dual-boot, until one day I realized I had not booted Windows in several weeks. I had no further use for it.

Back when I left Windows, there were still a lot of “never 10” people around. They are a lot smaller in number now, even though the things they hated about Windows 10 are still very much part of it, and some things have gotten worse (like the increased pressure to use Microsoft accounts). Somehow, without MS fixing any of the things that made 10 horrible, that version of Windows managed to glean “good” status over time simply by wearing down people’s resolve and convincing them of the inevitability of it all… and, of course, the introduction of 11, which by many accounts is even worse than 10. Windows 11 makes 10 look good by comparison (again, “good” is relative)… and just like that, things that were once unthinkable in Windows are normal and compatible with a “good” OS. Neat trick, Microsoft.

 

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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TechTango, AlanH, AlexEiffel, wdburt1, Cybertooth, JPMedia

Hey,

You are concerned with W10 End of Support in 2025, W11 22H2 Enterprise and Education are slated for 2025 also. W11 Enterprise, Education and IoT Enterprise are slated for End of Support 36 months after the release date. Pro, Pro Education and Pro for Workstations 24 months after release. Home version should have a new release before the 24 months date since it doesn’t have the option of paying for extended updates. I saw on M$’s website the other day that W11 IoT Enterprise LTSC Extended Support ends in 2027 while W10 IoT Enterprise LTSC ends in 2032.  W10 Enterprise LTSC ends in 2029. (All info from M$, EoL on W10 and W11) It looks like W10 is the last OS that M$ will have any descent lifespan on.  Although, when W7 ended there was at least one third party making and selling Security Updates. I read in one article that someone from here was using their service. Maybe it will happen for W19 or W11.

I recently had a very interesting event occur with my older Dell Inspiron Windows 10 laptop, which I had enrolled in the Windows Insiders Release Preview channel. It should never qualify for Windows 11 because its CPU is too old, but it does have TPM2, Secure Boot, and it supports virtualization. When I installed what I thought was the most recent Windows 10 update (about a week or so ago), after the computer restarted, I was greeted with Windows 11, enrolled in the Beta Channel. When I attempted to return to the Release preview channel, I was informed that I would have to perform a fresh install (keeping nothing). I decided to keep things as they are (Windows 11 in the Beta Channel) on that machine, just to see what happens next. I had planned to make that laptop a GNU/Linux only machine in 2025, but now maybe not, if it continues to get support and run well on Windows 11. As a final note, I never made any conscious effort to upgrade that laptop to Windows 11 because it did not meet the hardware requirements according to Microsoft’s PC Health Check app.

I’d be interested in your thoughts on my experience. Has this happened to others, or is my experience unique?

Ernie

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OldMainframeGuy, Mr. Austin, Loonier

Microsoft’s egregious pressure to mount their own hegemony against end-users’ rights is unacceptable. I might likely switch to a different OS if that happened on my client network machines.

Human, who sports only naturally-occurring DNA ~ oneironaut ~ broadcaster

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Charlie, JPMedia, Cybertooth

Mr. Austin wrote:

Microsoft’s egregious pressure to mount their own hegemony against end-users’ rights is unacceptable.

Then you shouldn’t be using Windows, because by your licensing of Windows, you gave up “users’ rights”.  Microsoft owns Windows, lock, stock, barrel and the copy installed on your machine.  By using Windows, you have agreed to their terms.

It is that simple.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

Not quite that simple.  Users have the right to reject the product and avoid installing 11 or installing an alternative operating system, or buy a product that does not depend on Windows.  With only 16,000 installs so far, it looks like users will reject this product in greater numbers than Windows 8.x.  Then there is the board of directors, who may not like or approve managements new designs and then when large corporations submit their dislikes it could impact the product financially.

Steve1916 wrote:

Not quite that simple.

Indeed, it is just that simple, as you also stated:

Steve1916 wrote:

Users have the right to reject the product and avoid installing 11 or installing an alternative operating system, or buy a product that does not depend on Windows.

EULA “By accepting this agreement or using the software, you agree to all of these terms, and consent to the transmission of certain information during activation and during your use of the software as per the privacy statement described in Section 3. If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features. You may contact the device manufacturer or installer, or your retailer if you purchased the software directly, to determine its return policy and return the software or device for a refund or credit under that policy. You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any.”

Steve1916 wrote:

With only 16,000 installs so far, it looks like users will reject this product in greater numbers than Windows 8.x.

It would appear that you left off some zero’s there.

Steve1916 wrote:

Then there is the board of directors, who may not like or approve managements new designs and then when large corporations submit their dislikes it could impact the product financially.

“Windows” is not Microsoft’s big money maker.  Office and Azure are much higher on the totem pole.  “In its 2022 financial year, Microsoft generated 63.4 billion U.S. dollars from its productivity and business processes segment and a further 75.3 billion through its intelligent cloud segment. Thanks in part to the rapid growth in these two areas, 2022 proved to be the company’s most successful year ever in terms of annual revenue, with the total figure reaching over 198 billion dollars.”

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

OK, stat counter says: 69.75% Windows 10 and 16.13% are Windows 11. The total number of worldwide Windows users depends on the data source and other factors.  The number of users that do more than read email and surf the Internet is a small fraction of the total. This may explain the Windows Insider point of view. S mode has reduced the sales of laptops and is only a single small issue that hurts business profits, but is safer for users.

Steve1916 wrote:

OK, stat counter says: 69.75% Windows 10 and 16.13% are Windows 11.

The Windows installed base is over one billion.  16.13% is over 161,300,000 installations.  That’s a few more than 16,000.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

I left out the screenshots from M$.

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Cybertooth

2 features of Win 11 I absolutely detest are (I moved from Win 7, so don’t know if these were introduced in between):

• depending on how you move a window, it is suddenly maximized and other windows are re-arranged in some tiled positions (even get a display of tiles but haven’t figured out what to do with this
• When copying a file from one folder to another, I’m asked if I want to replace the file in the destination folder. No info on the date/time/size of the 2 files, but I can click a button in that dialog and see the info. This is horrible. And the graph that shows the copying progress is useless.

For your first point, you can turn off SNAP in the Settings App so the windows won’t “snap” to full screen or patterned arrangements.

For the second point, you can also turn off viewing the graph.

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windbg, WStoyclyde

Thanks for the feedback. SNAP is now off!

I don’t care so much about the graph as opposed to the lack of date/time/size of the old and new files in a copy operation. If MS thinks the graph is better than the old display, more power to them; to me, the graph is just an enhanced progress bar on steroids.

Pretty well all the articles on the Web about upgrading to Windows 11 (in my case from Windows 10 Pro) concentrate ONLY on meeting Microsoft’s requirements. Well, I have a Dell Alienware 17 R5 laptop which easily ticks all of MICROSOFT’S boxes, so you might at first say that the upgrade to Win 11 would be a no brainer. However, when I venture to Dell’s support (sic) page for  my machine, I am warned up front that Win 11 is NOT SUPPORTED on it. Why? Because Dell in their ‘wisdom’ (sick!) won’t offer updated drivers, etc. for the machine for Win 11. Thus, Microsoft’s requirements for Win 11 being met don’t matter because Dell, despite Alienware being their flagship/top tier line, won’t support back to the 17 R5 in Win 11. So please, in articles about upgrading to Win 11, do  stress also the need for the manufacturer of Microsoft-ready machines to support Win 11. Needless to say I am p**sed off at Dell in this case!

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young058, Alex5723, SuperSaint, WCHS, Mr. Austin

Unless there is something unique about Windows 11 that I don’t know about, you don’t need to get the drivers from Dell. Windows itself will have most of them, and for those it doesn’t, you can get them from other OEMs (Lenovo, Asus, Acer, etc.), or from Dell for other models that use the same hardware bits.

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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Loonier

I think it is significant that Dell itself says Win 11 is not supported on my Alienware 17 R5. Indeed, some of the drivers are nonDell, such as Intel and NVIDIA, but there are things unique to Dell, such as Alienware Command Center, the associated OC controls, Support Assist, etc. Also, even now, Windows Update offers some weird drivers such as for Xeon (an 8th Gen i9 CPU is in the machine), and others seemingly inappropriate with weird (old) dates in the driver name – I just hide those offerings and get the needed – and presumably tested – drivers through Dell. It’s not just drivers that are updated through Dell, but some Alienware apps. Alienware Command Center is integral to running the machine with its full capabilities. If it stopped working (properly) at some point under Win 11, it would probably not be a good thing. All that said, I do not know for sure exactly why Dell says Win 11 is not supported on my Alienware 17 R5 laptop…

“Not Supported” does not mean it won’t work. It could mean that they tested it and it doesn’t work, but if it meets all the Microsoft demands, I doubt that this is the case. Most likely, it means they won’t give you any support if you need help getting something to run in Windows 11. If you have 11 on it and you have a problem that isn’t obviously hardware, they may not be willing to help.

I’ve run plenty of unsupported configurations quite well. I’ve got a bunch of Linux laptops that came with Windows 10… A Dell Inspiron 11, the G3, an Acer Swift 1, the two Xenia models in my .sig… all of these are unsupported configurations. My Dell XPS may be as well, as I am running a Linux version that is not in the Ubuntu family, and the unit came with Ubuntu.

I ran Windows XP, Windows 7 x64, Windows 8.1 x64, and Linux x64 on a laptop that came with Vista (x86, 32 bit)… and Vista was the only one of those that was “supported.” It ran quite nicely with the others, and with Windows 10 x64 as well, for the time I tested it.

Loonier wrote:

there are things unique to Dell, such as Alienware Command Center, the associated OC controls, Support Assist, etc.

Those will probably work fine in Windows 11… and if not, there is probably a Dell out there that does use Windows 11 and that has those things available, and you can just grab it from there. When I put 7 and then 8.1 on that laptop that came with Vista, I used the fingerprint reader program from a model that had Win 7 x64, not the one that was offered for my model, which was for Vista x86. I am not sure if I tried it and it didn’t work with 7… it’s been quite a few years since then.

Are you sure you really need these things, though? I’ve always removed all that stuff as part of the de-bloating operation back when I bought a laptop with a Windows version I actually wanted (though the last time that happened was around 2006).

With my Dell G3 gaming laptop (3579), there was none of that kind of thing available for Linux anyway, so when I got rid of Windows, all that kind of stuff (if there was any) went with it. Same is true with my Xenia 15 (a more up to date gaming laptop), which also came with Windows. In that case, the same hardware is sold by Tuxedo Computers, which is a Linux only OEM, and they have their own control-center type software. I’ve never actually tried it, as I can’t think of any benefit to it.

As far as the Xeon stuff in driver names… I’ve seen that too, but it’s never been a problem. If the device ID for your hardware is in the .inf file for the driver, it’s the right bit of hardware for the driver, even if the name in the Device Manager is a little off.

If you are interested in Win 11 at all, I would say to back your system up and give it a whirl. You won’t know if it works until you try it.

 

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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Loonier

Excellent food for thought. Thanks!

I’ll do my best to wait until 2025, then.   🙂

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Mr. Austin

I’ll stick with Windows 10 for the foreseeable future. Win 11 offers nothing of interest to me.

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SuperSaint, Mr. Austin

I agree!

You are a very smart man, genius even.

Simon_Weel wrote:

I’m starting to sound like a broken record – all those new features in Windows 11 are mostly window-dressing. Where are the fundamental improvements? Like: can Explorer handle long file names yet? And what about those things for systems managers? Like creating a custom default user profile the ‘XP’-way. Or a little overhaul for Sysprep, that gem that makes you tear out your hair when throwing in a wrench creating an image. Etc. Sigh.

How long do you want the file names to be? Windows 10 and in fact going way back to Windows 7/NT allowed filenames so long (255 characters) that they become too cumbersome to use. I’ve never reached the limit myself.

I ran into this problem when organizing files in complex folder structures. You have to account for not only for the number of characters in the file name, but the total number of characters in the entire filepath including the filename.

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cyberSAR, Loonier, kdock

I bet not one person in 100,000 has run into the character limitation.

I’ve run into it MANY times. Especially when dealing with backups

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geekdom, WCHS

You must be the one in 100,000.

Glad you’re happy with 255 characters. This limitation is not only for each file name but also folder depth limitations. Folders can get very deep and Windows cannot touch those files at that point.

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Loonier, WCHS, WStoyclyde, JPMedia

Tom Cass wrote:

How long do you want the file names to be? Windows 10 and in fact going way back to Windows 7/NT allowed filenames so long (255 characters) that they become too cumbersome to use.

1) The limit applies to Explorer filename which is really the entire Path address to the file including all the folders the file is nestled in. The more subfolders that are used the longer the file Path name will be such as C:\Folder\Folder\Folder\Folder….\file.ext. The limit really limits the file’s name only by the number of characters used by the sub-folders.
2) The limit is 260 characters not 255.
3) In Windows 10 pro there is a Group Policy edit that gets rid of this limit. In Windows 10 Home you can add a registry key (LongPathsEnabled) that will get rid of the limit.

HTH, Dana:))

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Loonier, kdock, NaNoNyMouse, Cybertooth

Drcard:)) wrote:

3) In Windows 10 pro there is a Group Policy edit that gets rid of this limit.

I am Win10/Pro 21H2 (still)
I have folders that are very deep in the file structure. Folder names are less than short; the same goes for filenames. Do you mean that that there is no limit on the length of a pathname with this GP option– i.e., the length is limitless?

Where is this option in GP?

One thing you may want to check.
If you allow this on your computer, then try to transfer/copy the structure with the files to another location (such as to an external storage drive, flash drive, etc), the name may get truncated b/c the destination does not allow the extra length.

I have observed this, even without adding a GP/Registry setting.

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wdburt1, Loonier, WCHS

WCHS wrote:

Where is this option in GP?

The How To Geek page at this link explains both the GP and Registry methods.

How to get Windows 10 to accept file paths > 260 characters

HTH, Dana:))

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Loonier, WCHS

Drcard:)) wrote:

The limit applies to Explorer filename which is really the entire Path address to the file including all the folders the file is nestled in. The more subfolders that are used the longer the file Path name will be such as C:\Folder\Folder\Folder\Folder….\file.ext. The limit really limits the file’s name only by the number of characters used by the sub-folders.

Indeed.  Additionally, “C:\long-descriptive-folder-name\long-descriptive-folder-name\long-descriptive-folder-name\long-descriptive-folder-name” lengthens that path.  There are alternatives, the simplest of which is “C:\long-descriptive-folder-name”, “C:\long-descriptive-folder-name”, “C:\long-descriptive-folder-name” with a few sub-folders for each.  My nesting is only two or three folders deep.

Partitioning can go a long way toward reducing file path length as well as making like items easy to find.  For example, “Programs 11” is only “H:” in the file-path, two characters instead of eleven.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

My colleagues like to create file / path names to described what’s stored. Hence they frequently run into trouble when they try to copy such a file or folder. Or save a document under a different name. As a result, I have to step in to remedy the problem, so Explorer can again be used to manage such files.

“If you want to take advantage of the best and brightest ideas coming out of Microsoft’s Windows team, that means Windows 11.”

The problem is they are far outweighed by the worst and dumbest ideas that reduces my productivity and implies the need to use third party tools to tame a bit of them. I also absolutely refuse to endorse their requirement to use a Microsoft Account on the Home version.

In addition, none of the improvements you mentioned are really compelling to me and I am sure I am not alone feeling that way.

Indirectly presenting staying on 10 as a risky move in terms of security doesn’t seem reasonable. 10 is supported right now and you can always upgrade later before support ends unless Microsoft change their mind about the free upgrade, but I would think they would announce it before. 11 might have better security features you did not talk about, but are they usable for Home versions users and are they useful for them that much in real life right now?

They should focus on adding or refining useful tools instead of deprecating them : imaging, partitioning, easier way to save and copy all settings for small businesses, easy low-privilege sandboxed browsing with any browser, etc.

I say stay on 10, and upgrade at the last minute when support ends to send the message to Microsoft that their ideas are not good.

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samak, windbg, kdock, Charlie, SuperSaint, Cybertooth

One item not mentioned by the author is that Windows 11 forces users to create a microsoft account to install.  The local account alternative is no longer available (except for some creative work arounds).  All my home Windows 10 machines run with a local account which I very much prefer.  I do not appreciate Microsoft forcing me to create a cloud account.

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windbg, Charlie

I agree that forcing you to use a Microsoft account is bad but there is a workaround I found on the Internet. Create an account called a@a.com, use any old password and then you get a message sayong “oops something went wrong” and then you can create a local account.

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Cybertooth

Actually you can still get around that mandate.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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bbearren

These words literally made me laugh out loud.  “…the best and brightest ideas coming out of Microsoft’s Windows team.”

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samak, AlexEiffel, Cybertooth, kdock, JPMedia

All those issues are fine and well. But with Windows 10, my dell computer had nothing but problems upon problems. Once I switched over to Windows 11, it took a while for it to finally get set up, but now I have no problems. Simple as that. I’ll put up with the minor inconveniences.

Lance Whitney wrote:

But what about the downsides of Windows 11 that I mentioned? The dumbed-down Start menu. The inflexible Taskbar. Well, that’s where I rely on third-party utilities to come to my rescue. I’ve used Start menu alternatives to replace the built-in Start menu ever since Windows 8.1. With such programs as Start11, StartAllBack, and Open Shell, I’ve been able to use a traditional two-column Start menu through every incarnation of Windows from 8.1 to 10 to 11.

A couple of things: with Windows 8, I started using StartIsBack, and stayed with that through Windows 10 (all upgrades, no clean installations).  With Windows 11, I upgraded to StartAllBack (same software team).  Visit the link to see what it can do.  My Windows 11 Pro looks (and behaves) very much like Windows 7.

As for having to have a Microsoft account, I don’t.  All my machines are running Pro, and I only upgrade, no clean installations.  When one upgrades, there is no requirement for a Microsoft account.  OneDrive requires a Microsoft account, but that can be logged on separately, and the Microsoft account does not need to be used for logging into Windows.  There are no Microsoft User accounts on any of my machines; all use local accounts.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

John18 wrote:

These words literally made me laugh out loud.  “…the best and brightest ideas coming out of Microsoft’s Windows team.”

I’m still laughing…

“If you buy a new computer today, that you anticipate keeping for more than three years, and you want to ensure that it will continue to be protected against security threats, Windows 11 is the way to go.”

Well… there is another option.

I’ve bought quite a few PCs (all laptops) over the last few years. All have had 10, including my most recent purchase, the Xenia 14 (a purchase I made a bit over a month ago now, if I recall, as I write this). I definitely plan to keep any PC I buy for more than three years, and I want to keep it protected… but I don’t need any form of Windows for that.

The PC I am using now to write this, my Dell XPS 13, didn’t even come with Windows. It’s my first (and thus far only) factory Linux PC!

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

1 user thanked author for this post.

Charlie

One thing Microsoft designers and — sorry to say — magazine publishers have in common: if it’s looked the same for more than 3 weeks, change it!  Doesn’t matter whether there’s a need for it or if customers have asked for it.  Change for the sake of change!  That’s how I view the start menu and taskbar changes (no improvement to functionality, meaning there’s no need to make the change).

Including Teams as part of the operating system?  That’s even worse!  Teams has absolutely nothing to do with running the computer.  I want an operating system, not an operating environment.  If they’re going to keep adding what would be considered bloatware if the PC manufacturer included it, then they need to also offer a bare-bones OS installation with just the OS and enough of an interface to be able to use it (and add the programs I really want).

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wavy, samak, windbg, wdburt1, Cybertooth, Loonier, kdock, Charlie

Oh how I wish such a thing were available!

 

I don’t see anything compelling in Windows 11 vs Windows 10.
Windows 11 is in a worse shape that the now “mature” Windows 10.
I would have bought Windows 10 PC. There is ample time until 2025 to upgrade to Windows 11 and by then Microsoft will release Windows 12 (Microsoft announced 3 years cycle).

4 users thanked author for this post.

AlexEiffel, Cybertooth, BobbyB, GoJuNenMae1970

Alex5723 wrote:

I don’t see anything compelling in Windows 11 vs Windows 10.

Windows 11 will be in support three years from now when support for Windows 10 ends.

On permanent hiatus {with backup and coffee}
offline▸ Win10Pro 2004.19041.572 x64 i3-3220 RAM8GB HDD Firefox83.0b3 WindowsDefender
offline▸ Acer TravelMate P215-52 RAM8GB Win11Pro 22H2.22621.1265 x64 i5-10210U SSD Firefox106.0 MicrosoftDefender
online▸ Win11Pro 22H2.22621.1992 x64 i5-9400 RAM16GB HDD Firefox116.0b3 MicrosoftDefender

Sorry, Mr. Whitney, but I’ll stick with Susan Bradley for now.  She has plainly advised AGAINST upgrading to Windows 11 version 22H2, and has (wisely) advised caution in upgrading to Windows 11 from Windows 10.  In addition, I have employed the “InControl” app from grc.com  to keep Microsoft from forcing an upgrade to Win11.

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OldMainframeGuy

The article reads to me like a list of reasons to consider upgrading to Windows 11 in 2025 rather than now. There again, there’s no mention of the security support for Windows 10 likely to be offered by 0patch in 2025. In the meantime, the fact that Microsoft’s additional features will be targeted on Windows 11 is a very good reason in my view to stick to Windows 10.

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AlexEiffel

My latest computer build hardware supports all Win 11 requirements but the number one reason I will not upgrade(?) to Win 11 is that the taskbar no longer appears to support toolbars. I have not seen a workaround for this or a different way to accomplish the same functionality. No third-party software seems to return this functionality.

 

 

If anyone can address this issue, I would be happy to hear from you.

1 user thanked author for this post.

AlexEiffel

Lookk at Start11 by Stardock or StartAllBack.

I use the “New Toolbar” item to setup a place for shortcuts.

Ascaris wrote:

Back when I left Windows, there were still a lot of “never 10” people around. They are a lot smaller in number now, even though the things they hated about Windows 10 are still very much part of it, and some things have gotten worse (like the increased pressure to use Microsoft accounts). Somehow, without MS fixing any of the things that made 10 horrible, that version of Windows managed to glean “good” status over time simply by wearing down people’s resolve and convincing them of the inevitability of it all…

In my case at least, my opposition to Windows 10 decreased as I discovered ways to control or suppress the aspects of Windows 10 that I disliked, while adding back aspects of Vista/Windows 7 that I did like.

Using third-party applications if necessary, so long as it’s still possible to pick and choose which Windows Updates to install and when; to significantly limit the amount of data that Microsoft siphons off my PC; and to have both a Start menu that’s customizable to Vista/7 style and Aero Glass translucence in the taskbar and in window frames–then I will probably stay on Windows.

One item that would be a deal-breaker all on its own would be if it became difficult enough or impossible to set up a new Windows computer without establishing a Microsoft Account. As 2025 approaches, I will continue to monitor developments regarding a requirement for a MS Account on Windows 11.

Keep Running Windows 7 Safely for Years to Come  
Make Windows 10 look and work like Windows 7

6 users thanked author for this post.

Microfix, Ascaris, AlexEiffel, Seff, windbg, wdburt1

I would be interested in reading a discussion of the programs and other solutions you use to make Windows 10 tolerable.

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Cybertooth

No problem, you can check out this thread which hopefully will go a long way toward making Windows 10 tolerable.

Heck, just this morning my wife–who is highly suspicious of third-party applications that are new to her–finally agreed to let me install WUMgr on her computer. She prefers to leave tons of emails, browser tabs, and PDFs open at the same time, and finds it annoying no end to have to “schedule” restarts or repeatedly have to deal with Win10’s demands. Today was the final straw as she went into her office to find that her PC had shut down to install updates without warning and everything she had open had been closed overnight.

Keep Running Windows 7 Safely for Years to Come  
Make Windows 10 look and work like Windows 7

1 user thanked author for this post.

wdburt1

PKCano wrote:

Lookk at Start11 by Stardock or StartAllBack.

Looked at both and neither mention toolbars in their documentation.

Thank you for responding.

I use StartAllBack.  There’s more to it than is listed in their documentation.  Toolbars?

Yeah, it’s got toolbars.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

bbearren wrote:

I use StartAllBack.  There’s more to it than is listed in their documentation.  Toolbars?

Yeah, it’s got toolbars.

Wow! Great thanks for this. If you use tool bars, could you shoot me a screen shot of your taskbar?

 

I don’t use toolbars, but I created one for you.

 

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

Thank You

anonymous wrote:

Microsoft have taken multiple steps back and are taking one step forward and getting praise for it. As we all know, this seems to be the Tock in the Tick-Tock release of Windows where every Tick is a good release (10, 7, XP) and every Tock is a worse one (11, 8/8.1, Vista). Here’s hoping the already leaked Windows 12 goes back to being a good one.

Agree. MS has been going backwards for years now. Windows Xp was the last great OS. Windows 12 is horrible from the leaked version which has been release over 7 months ago. Have not used the one that was leak 3 months ago.

Here is my list from best to very very horrible.

1. Windows Xp (Still using this)
2. Windows 98 (sometimes still use this)
3. Windows 95 (PSU broken and can not find replacement)
4. Windows Me (storage)
5. Windows Nt (storage)
6. Windows 7 (disconnect from internet to avoid windows spy-telemery)
7. Windows 8 (storage)
8. Windows 8.1 (storage)
9. Windows Vista (storage but might be repurposed with Windows Xp soon)
10. Windows 10 (storage- never connect to internet to avoid spy-telemry)
11. Windows 11 (have not lost my marbles yet to buy this. use only beta to test in a virtual system that had to be clean and wipe several times to get it clean again)

99. Windows 12 – leak cloud version which is subscription based on monthly payment. Use it and hate it. (had to burn candle over the hard drive to purify the hardware from this trash OS that MS created)

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Microfix, GoJuNenMae1970, wavy, BobbyB, Charlie, Cybertooth

For W7 and W10 it is/was easy to remove the spying capability.

What about windows 2000??
NT was a stable OS with less GUI controls than the 9xs .

But XP was always my favorite but I have moved on…
Maybe be next ‘move on’ will to a Linux workhorse .🎠 well maybe not so much REAL work.

🍻

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

One thing to keep in mind folks… Lance didn’t say “upgrade” to Windows 11 – he’s buying a laptop.  At this stage in the lifecycle of Windows 10, I would not be buying a laptop and downgrading it to 10 unless it came with 10.

He’s specifically talking about the point we are in the lifecycle of 10/11 where the end of life for 10 is coming up and it’s hard to justify NOT buying Windows 11 if you need a Windows machine.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

1 user thanked author for this post.

southieguy

at Susan Bradley,

Lance talks about W10 ending in 2025,  W11 22H2 versions Pro, Pro Education and Pro for Workstations EoL is 2024. (by default from the factory, 24 months after release) W11 22H2  Enterprise and Education EoL  is 2025. (by default from the factory, 36 months after release)

QUOTE

He’s specifically talking about the point we are in the lifecycle of 10/11 where the end of life for 10 is coming up and it’s hard to justify NOT buying Windows 11 if you need a Windows machine.

END QUOTE

The EoL is the same for 22H2, whether W10 or W11.

geekdom wrote:

Alex5723 wrote:

I don’t see anything compelling in Windows 11 vs Windows 10.

Windows 11 will be in support three years from now when support for Windows 10 ends.

By then you will have Windows 12 to worry about.

I have 2 systems running Winders 11, a desktop for experimenting and a laptop with the “Insider Preview”. Every update on the laptop, breaks more and more items. I also have to constantly uninstall microsoft store (CR)apps and reinstall them after each update. HATE IT HATE IT HATE IT.

I have winders 10 on 3 other systems. 2 of them can’t be upgraded to winders 11 because one is a RYZEN 1 and the other a Threadripper 1. My Threadripper 3 system, I will not screw up with winders 11.

My final system, runs winders 7. Was running winders 10, but had to revert back to 7 because software on that system that was updated for 10 doesn’t work, but the winders 7 version won’t tun on 10. Also it’s a 4th gen Intel.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Alex5723

You can deprovision the Windows Store Apps and they won’t come back (at least mine don’t except Edge webview2). Google the procedure. TenForums has a good tutorial on deprovisioning.

I would need to upgrade my Windows 10 Rig to install Windows 11.

But since it plays the main online game I am in at from 100 to 140 FPs,

I see no reason to upgrade

You forgot that CPU has to be generation 8 or higher.  This was not disclosed when people bought a TPM chip and then found out about CPU requirement in the fine print.  Windows 10 is getting updated to look like Windows 11, which adds more clicks to do the same thing and is now becoming 1/2 10 and 1/2 11.  Now we have to live with all the beta 11 updates in 10.  Windows 11 is also unstable with some applications like Xfinity Connect, which went into lockup on the wife’s computer just yesterday.  Building OneDrive into both Windows (notice from Microsoft) is not happening on all computers I have.  I don’t need to see 45,000 files in OneDrive on my Financial, TV, and Gaming computers.   It took 3 days to go thru and delete all the files that I had deleted (30,000) from my desktop and were saved in OneDrive.  I take from 60 to 120 photos a week at R/C model aircraft events and delete about 50% due to shooting at 60 to 120 mph moving models.  Ok, this is just a start.  Windows 11 and OneDrive will take a minimum of 4 more years before features and benefits of past versions are achieved.  Screwing up the last 3 years of Windows 10 is just adding insult to injury.  This is just barely a start of the pain and misery estimated on the basis of performance of the last 5 new windows versions.  5 years of beta hell, then 3 good years, then the cycle starts over.  Too many problems to post all here.

Steve1916 wrote:

Too many problems to post all here.

You hit the nail straight on the head. Windows 10,11,or 12 have too many problems to deal with at the moment.

As long as you follow the Susan method of patching 10 is fine.  Every operating system has side effects you have to deal with.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

MS is backwards wrote:

Here is my list from best to very very horrible. Windows Xp (Still using this) Windows 98 (sometimes still use this) Windows 95 (PSU broken and can not find replacement) Windows Me (storage) Windows Nt (storage) Windows 7 (disconnect from internet to avoid windows spy-telemery) Windows 8 (storage) Windows 8.1 (storage) Windows Vista (storage but might be repurposed with Windows Xp soon) Windows 10 (storage- never connect to internet to avoid spy-telemry) Windows 11 (have not lost my marbles yet to buy this. use only beta to test in a virtual system that had to be clean and wipe several times to get it clean again) 99. Windows 12 – leak cloud version which is subscription based on monthly payment. Use it and hate it. (had to burn candle over the hard drive to purify the hardware from this trash OS that MS created)

 

Hey..you almost have the same list as I would for Windows. I might change 2 and 6 position but other wise is is same list. Windows is going down hill. My recommendation would be these two for all users that need new computers:

1. If you do need Windows, time to start to learn Linux and have Windows in a Virtual OS.
2. If you do not need Windows, GREAT FOR YOU. You have free your self from a terrible OS called Windows. Enjoy your______ (fill in blank with Linux, Mac, Unix, ReactOS,ARCOS, Cobol on z/OS, Andriod, or any that is not Windows.)

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Charlie

WSmchldpy wrote:

For W7 and W10 it is/was easy to remove the spying capability.

yes indeed. That is how I found “askwoody”. I was trying to stop that annoying “update to win10” nagware. The particular KB# kept being reinstalled with updates that I wanted. “Askwoody” kept us supplied with KB#’s to uninstall and a safe list to choose from. Was a lot of work for a tech illiterate, but I persevered and still safely and smoothly using my win7 machine! Thank you to all on “askwoody” that helped me through those dark times! I do have a win10 machine now that I use for online transactions.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Charlie

MS sealed their fate with me when they changed their way of updating to one extremely big non- quality rollup that included things you don’t want). Then making their OS (from Win 10 on) so hard to use.  I don’t want to have to babysit an OS that should be designed to serve me, not MS.  I mainly use Linux Mint, and still use and like Win XP and Win 7.

Being 20 something in the 70's was far more fun than being 70 something in the insane 20's

2 users thanked author for this post.

Microfix, Cybertooth

Using a third party firewall helps avoid the annoyances of W10, especially the 3 pronged attack of WU, the MS Store and MS Defender that I can easily unblock at the flick of a switch in order to manually update MS Defender (twice a day), WU (Patch once a month) and ignore the MS Store (blocked as I have no MS-junkware codecs etc..) Runs sweet once the focus and older habits are changed.

If debian is good enough for NASA...

Microfix wrote:

Runs sweet once the focus and older habits are changed.

Windows 11 “runs sweet once the focus and older habits are changed.”  Hardened Windows takes away all the worry and “sky is falling” fears of letting everything update automatically.  Check the link for details.

I block drivers using Group Policy, use O&O Shutup10++ to curb phoning home, supplement Windows Defender with Malwarebytes Premium, and edit the registry to root out those “improvements” that I don’t care for.  To look at my desktop in use one would think I’m running Windows 7 Pro.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

bbearen wrote:

QUOTE

Windows 11 “runs sweet once the focus and older habits are changed.”  Hardened Windows takes away all the …

END QUOTE

This doesn’t harden Windows at all. It does harden the ability to restore due to the redundancy of backups or making a backup in the first place, irrespective of anything you’ve done or will do. 2¢ worth of my (non solicited) opinion.

Do you not know how to use post quotes?  Just highlight the text you want to quote, then click the “Quote” button on the bottom right.  It’s easy.

WSmchldpy wrote:

QUOTE

Windows 11 “runs sweet once the focus and older habits are changed.” Hardened Windows takes away all the …

END QUOTE

bbearren wrote:

Hardened Windows takes away all the worry and “sky is falling” fears of letting everything update automatically.

WSmchldpy wrote:

This doesn’t harden Windows at all. It does harden the ability to restore due to the redundancy of backups or making a backup in the first place, irrespective of anything you’ve done or will do.

That is exactly my point.  One’s Windows installation is “hardened” in drive images created on a regular basis.  Should anything go awry, the correction is quick, simple and easy.

Check out Partitioning Options for ways to make the hardening of one’s Windows installation simpler and quicker.  This technique is a “one and done” method.  It survives updates and upgrades with ease, and also improves the stability and efficiency of the Windows installation.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

The term “harden” really refers to computer security where the goal is to eliminate as many risks and threats to a computer system as possible so it is more secure or hardened from attack or compromise. Backups of data and/or the whole system via drive images are but a minor part of that process and often only used as a last resort when all the primary layers of security have been compromised and the system needs to be restored to return it to a working state. So it’s a bit confusing and not completely accurate to refer to “drive images” as a “hardened system”.

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Cybertooth, windbg

Mothy wrote:

Backups of data and/or the whole system via drive images are but a minor part of that process and often only used as a last resort when all the primary layers of security have been compromised and the system needs to be restored to return it to a working state.

In almost 30 years of personal computing, I’ve had one (1) intrusion of malware.  It came into my system via a 3.5″ floppy an IT pro had given me with a copy of a utility he liked.  He was quite embarrassed, but my Colorado Tape Backups (this was in ’97) restored my system and data to its original state.

In January, 2011 I lost two DIY PC’s (and the house) in a house fire.  They were both running Retail Windows 7 Ultimate and various installed programs/apps/utilities.  My drive images for both were safely stored away.  To save time I ordered a Dell Inspiron 580, used BootItNG to format the drive, then restored one of my lost PC’s to it.  Later on when I had the time, I ordered parts, built a new DIY PC and restored my other set of drive images to it.  Recent drive images are, in my experience, a major part of Hardened Windows.  Both of those PC’s (in upgraded form, hardware and software) are still running faithfully in my dual boot desktop PC and NAS.

Steve Gibson’s Shields UP! gives me this:

“Your system has achieved a perfect “TruStealth” rating. Not a single packet — solicited or otherwise — was received from your system as a result of our security probing tests. Your system ignored and refused to reply to repeated Pings (ICMP Echo Requests). From the standpoint of the passing probes of any hacker, this machine does not exist on the Internet. Some questionable personal security systems expose their users by attempting to “counter-probe the prober”, thus revealing themselves. But your system wisely remained silent in every way. Very nice.”

Mothy wrote:

So it’s a bit confusing and not completely accurate to refer to “drive images” as a “hardened system”.

Did you not check the Hardened Windows link?

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

Shields Up gave me the exact same rating. It only means my firewall was doing as I set it up to do, reject all probing attempts. It does not mean my installation can’t be corrupted.

 

WSmchldpy wrote:

It only means my firewall was doing as I set it up to do, reject all probing attempts. It does not mean my installation can’t be corrupted.

My safely stored drive images are uncorrupted and uncorruptable.  That means any hardware/software/malware issues can be completely removed, my images restored, and my installation won’t be corrupted.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

bbearren wrote:

WSmchldpy wrote:

It only means my firewall was doing as I set it up to do, reject all probing attempts. It does not mean my installation can’t be corrupted.

My safely stored drive images are uncorrupted and uncorruptable.  That means any hardware/software/malware issues can be completely removed, my images restored, and my installation won’t be corrupted.

You’re talking in circles again. You quote me as saying the test results don’t mean your installation can’t be corrupted.

Your response is your images are not corrupted and can’t be corrupted. If you do suffer from Malware/Hardware/Software corruption your images will restore and your installation won’t be corrupted anymore.

What?

You need to put the pipe down and step away from the tacos. I repeat, step away from the tacos

WSmchldpy wrote:

Shields Up gave me the exact same rating.

Did you get this summation from Shields UP?

bbearren wrote:

“Your system has achieved a perfect “TruStealth” rating. Not a single packet — solicited or otherwise — was received from your system as a result of our security probing tests. Your system ignored and refused to reply to repeated Pings (ICMP Echo Requests). From the standpoint of the passing probes of any hacker, this machine does not exist on the Internet. Some questionable personal security systems expose their users by attempting to “counter-probe the prober”, thus revealing themselves. But your system wisely remained silent in every way. Very nice.”

I’m doubtful, because your IP address does indeed respond to a ping request.  I’ve hidden your IP address in this image, as that would make you a vulnerable target.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

What I don’t know is how to do the above instructions you provided using the keyboard alone, as in when one’s mouse is no longer functioning as it should. Perhaps in the future when my proficiency level of keyboard only use increases. May not be in the near future since I now have another mouse.

If Windows can be corrupted, then calling it “Hardened” only because it can be restored from an image seems nonsensical. What is hardened is the ability to restore, due to a redundancy of backups, versus having only one backup.

WSmchldpy wrote:

What I don’t know is how to do the above instructions you provided using the keyboard alone, as in when one’s mouse is no longer functioning as it should.

Experience.  Practice.  I’ve pooched my machines dozens if not hundreds of times over the years learning how to make Windows do what I want it to do.  Restoring my drive images has always been a last resort, because I prefer figuring out what’s going on in Windows innards.

I still do that with every major upgrade; get rid of what I don’t want, configure Windows the way I want.  After a successful upgrade, I create a fresh set of drive images.  And so far, they all have been successful since Windows 8.1.  Windows 8 couldn’t find my Windows 7 Ultimate key, but a Microsoft Support tech did.  Once that hurdle was jumped, the rest of the upgrade went smoothly.

WSmchldpy wrote:

If Windows can be corrupted, then calling it “Hardened” only because it can be restored from an image seems nonsensical.

I can restore a pooched system in about three minutes.  In my experience, that’s not at all nonsensical.  From Hardened Windows:

“Every Saturday night after I sign off, I disconnect my router from my modem. At 2:00AM Sunday morning, with my machine signed off and offline, Task Scheduler creates a set of drive images on an internal 1TB drive dedicated for image files. At 4:00AM, Task Scheduler runs a RoboCopy script to copy those drive images through my router to a folder on my signed-off NAS. On Sunday morning, I plug a 3TB HDD into the dock on top of my NAS, RDP to my NAS and initiate a RoboCopy script to copy those same image files to the docked external HDD. When that copy is finished, I remove that HDD from the dock, replace it with another 3TB HDD, and repeat. Those two external HDD’s are then stored safely away, and I can reconnect my router to my modem. I have one month (four sets) of drive images on the internal drive in my desktop, two months of drive images on my NAS, and three months of drive images on my external HDD’s.”

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

No one said restoring your system in about 3 minutes was nonsensical. What’s seems nonsensical is calling your system hardened while bragging about how fast your restores are.  The Shields Up results indicate your system is hidden well from eyes outside of your LAN but does nothing to stop you or others from bringing in malware or corrupting the system yourself. The hardened part is the methods you’ve used to have several clean images and a very fast restore capability due to your partitioning schemes. As Mothy said ” … not completely accurate …”.

Buck stops with me and I say we’re getting a tad testy in this post.  Let’s bring on a bit of Christmas cheer.

How about I think about having a Askwoody dictionary of what agreed upon terms are for the 2023 year.

 

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

3 users thanked author for this post.

geekdom, bbearren, Loonier

WSmchldpy wrote:

The Shields Up results indicate your system is hidden well from eyes outside of your LAN

Yes, mine is.  Yours isn’t.  Reference reply #2510723,

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

Yes mine is. At that point in time you were correct. Previously and presently my results are the same. After setting to default my router must be reconfigured. Being that Wan and Lan ping settings are in a place that is not near the surface they can be forgotten when screwing with other settings. (no matter what my firewall settings are since my router is first) I’ve been  going to GRC for years for browser leaks, port stealth concerns etc … .

Once again. you employ very good system and backup practices that allow for ease and speed in the restore process. I (personal opinion, as you know) don’t think that alone qualifies as hardened, not that 100% is achievable with Air Gap or some Malware’s ability to turn a bus bar into a transmitter to defeat an isolated and seemingly secure computer without internet capability. Like Mothy, it just seems misleading.

Have a nice bidet.

 

WSmchldpy wrote:

Like Mothy, it just seems misleading.

The fact remains that an “intruder” must first get access to my machine.  In my case, that has to be physical access, which is very highly unlikely.  My modem/router is locked down.

I don’t open emails that I’m not expecting.  I don’t open email attachments from known sources without confirmation from the source that the attachment is legitimate.  I have multiple plugins for Firefox and I practice safe surfing habitually.

My Windows installation is pruned and trimmed of all the features that I neither need nor use, including Edge.  I have multiple copies of my data, and months of duplicated drive images stored safely offline.

In summary, my data remains safe, any Windows faux pas can be completely remedied in about three minutes as if nothing ever happened.  You and Mothy are welcome to your opinions.  We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do. We don’t all have to do the same things.

In June 2020, before Woody left AskWoody in Susan’s very capable hands, we were discussing (in the MVP private forum; the post title was “AskWoody MVP”) adding a “Hardened Windows” section to the Forums under my care and moderation.  A private test site was set up in AskWoody, which is to say that Woody did not declare “Hardened Windows” to be misleading.  Susan didn’t take part in that discussion, and after Woody left there was no follow through, and I’m OK with that, too.

Again, We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do. We don’t all have to do the same things.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

Your quote of what I said should have read ‘like Mothy said,’ buy my edit button vanished after I made the post and since I didn’t proofread before submitting …

I ass–u–me my summation from S.U. sufficed.

This series of post reminds me of a Gene Watson song, ‘A one sided conversation, with a narrow-minded wall’.

 

This was an automated message. Please don’t feel a need to reply.

The most widely accepted definition of a Hardened Computer is one that effectively resists malware attacks/infections using both hardware and software solutions.

While a good backup solution is essential to recovery from a malware attack, it has no part in hardening the computer system because it mitigates the effects of a malware attack but does nothing to prevent the intrusion in the first place.

My2Cents,

Ernie

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rc primak, WSmchldpy, Cybertooth

WSmchldpy wrote:

If Windows can be corrupted, then calling it “Hardened” only because it can be restored from an image seems nonsensical. What is hardened is the ability to restore, due to a redundancy of backups, versus having only one backup.

Please learn terminology, documentation, and safe computer practices. Multiple backups are necessary. If one backup has failed or has a known virus, use an older backup that may not fail or doesn’t contain a virus.

Safe practice for backups at minimum is three separate external hard drives:

Day 1 — HDD 1
Day 2 — HDD 2
Day 3 — HDD 3
Day 4 — HDD 1

And so on and so forth.

On permanent hiatus {with backup and coffee}
offline▸ Win10Pro 2004.19041.572 x64 i3-3220 RAM8GB HDD Firefox83.0b3 WindowsDefender
offline▸ Acer TravelMate P215-52 RAM8GB Win11Pro 22H2.22621.1265 x64 i5-10210U SSD Firefox106.0 MicrosoftDefender
online▸ Win11Pro 22H2.22621.1992 x64 i5-9400 RAM16GB HDD Firefox116.0b3 MicrosoftDefender

You say multiple backups are necessary. If you can comprehend what you quoted me as saying you will see I said what was hardened was his ability to restore (effectively) due to a redundancy (multiple copies) of backups, versus having just one copy. 

As Mothy said, calling it hardened just because you can restore from an image is not entirely accurate and misleading.

He actually has a robust backup routine and a partitioning scheme that allows for fast restore times  but to say that Windows is hardened because of that seems not entirely correct, misleading and nonsensical. (doesn’t make much sense)

You said “Please learn terminology, documentation, and safe computer practices.”

Maybe some grammar/punctuation as there is no comma between the word “documentation” and the word “and”.

Reminds me of the old Dirt Track Drivers saying “Make sure brain is fully in gear before letting the clutch out on that mouth”.

WSmchldpy wrote:

Maybe some grammar/punctuation as there is no comma between the word “documentation” and the word “and”.

To be clear, there is no hard-and-fast rule on the serial/Oxford/Harvard comma. It all depends on the style guide for a particular publication. I don’t believe that AskWoody has one for the use of [any kind of] comma(s).

I (to be clear) have been frequenting AskWoody (formerly Window’s Secrets?) since he left working with Ian Anderson Richards and I haven’t noticed any publication based style guide on the use of a comma, serial/Oxford/Harvard or otherwise either. I don’t believe it was caused from lack of education but think it was done by mistake, maybe due to lack of proofreading or just overlooked as I have done more than once. I may be mistaken about my belief in what is or is not proper punctuation use. I sometimes act as what many call an “Arrogant American” in mistakenly thinking that what I was taught or believe is a constant everywhere. What would be great was if that could or would have been the only mistake that I made that day. After all, the only way to not make at least one mistake per day is to not do anything but then not doing anything may be a mistake itself.

 

After just checking, it seems there are hard and fast rules on the comma and use before and after the word “and”.

Although sources were not readily apparent they used terms like “in English” (ours or the Queen’s King’s English) and called them “rules”.

University of Indiana

=====================================

scribbr

 

 

WSmchldpy wrote:

University of Indiana

=====================================

scribbr

Your first link cites the conventions for the use of a comma in Standard Edited American English (SEAE), used in most forms of academic writing, and as such are in Indiana University’s online guide for coursework. The NYTimes, for example, has a different take on the use of the serial comma – its style guide does not require it.

Your second link actually says:

However, at the end of a list of three or more items, a comma may [emphasis mine] be used before ‘and.’ This is called the Oxford comma (or serial comma). It’s usually recommended to use it

We are talking about conventions here, not hard-and-fast rules. Comma use (which happens only in writing) depends on the writing conventions of a particular publication or institution.

If you believe in hard-and-fast rules, then take a look at this:

Although sources were not readily apparent [sic] they used terms like “in English” (ours or the Queen’s King’s English) and called them “rules”.

The reason there are no apparent sources is that there ARE no universal, hard-and-fast sources, i.e., there is no body that legislates what “English” is. It all depends on conventions that apply to when, where, and how.

Just sayin’.

I do hear you. When I read your first post I realized I knew little to nothing, or even less. Then I went to scribbr and the very first sentence says “In English, you must put a comma before “and” when it connects two independent …”.

Then about five lines down it states “The same rules apply to using commas with …”.

The words “you must ” and “The same rules” sounded like hard and fast something but then I couldn’t find who said you must or the governing body was that made the rules. In our Gov., usually Congress makes a Law and an Agency is responsible for implementing it and making it work, making Rules etc … . Rules are are a hard and fast thing and with little exception must be followed or facing a penalty under Law is possible. Then, as you quote they use the word “may” which unless used very carefully can causes ambiguity. After reading your second post I realized why the Legal sounding words and format seemed hollow. With no source for the non existent hard and fast rules he could have put 3 commas there and been correct.

Sorry about rambling on.

WCHS wrote:

It all depends on the style guide for a particular publication.

Quite so. We have a regularly maintained style guide for use when editing articles in the newsletters, and all authors are given a copy. This is done to maintain a consistent usage in articles over a long period of time.

However, there is no style guide for the forums, nor do I think there should be one. It’s not our place to tell anyone posting here how to write. If differences in English usage cause confusion on the matter under discussion, further discourse can provide clarification – not on language, but on the topic matter.

2 users thanked author for this post.

rc primak, WCHS

After WCHS educated me on style guides and the seeming lack of structured governing bodies making rules, how do you come up with style guides? Do you pull recourses from different places or formulate the rules on your own or maybe have one source?

 

thanks

7 has the cumulative update model as well.

The problem was that people would skip over an update that later on was needed – or – introduced a security hole.

Apple does not release individual updates.  They have since day one used the same cumulative update model.

The problem is not the model. The problem is the ecosystem that is a wild west and (a bit of tough love here, sorry) a bit of unrealistic expecation of having decade old machines to continue to flawlessly work.  Apple is also starting to put their foot down and say they won’t support older hardware.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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rc primak, young058, bbearren

geekdom wrote:

QUOTE

Windows 11 will be in support three years from now when support for Windows 10 ends.

END QUOTE

 Not According to Microsoft

From Microsoft (see browser location at top of first pic) End of Support is the same year, 5 months apart. What about Extended Support? If one has it the other should also.

WSmchldpy wrote:

What about Extended Support?

Extended support doesn’t enter the picture if one stays upgraded with new releases of Windows; “in support” doesn’t run out.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

 You are correct, my reference was to version 22H2 per the OP’s article thus “Upgrading”  would be a moot point.

Drcard:)) wrote:

3) In Windows 10 pro there is a Group Policy edit that gets rid of this limit. In Windows 10 Home you can add a registry key (LongPathsEnabled) that will get rid of the limit.

… but not for Explorer.

Maybe if Microsoft dropped some of the ridiculous requirements (for homeowners and ordinary users) more of us would give Windows 11 a try. Their Health Check is a joke.

This may be slightly off-topic, but I have an older Dell Inspiron laptop PC that should never meet the Windows 11 hardware requirements because the CPU is too old. I had it set up to get the Windows 10 Insider Release Preview channel. Ater installing the most recent cumulative update, I found Windows 11 on it, and that it is now on the Windows 11 Insider Beta channel. I’ve decided to allow things to play out to see what happens next, but the thing I don’t understand is why Microsoft would allow this machine to upgrade to Windows 11 in the first place. It has Secure Boot, and TPM2, but the CPU is too old (as stated above), and it definitely does not pass the Windows 11 Compatibility Check app (I downloaded it to make sure).

Microsoft will never cease to confuse me,

Ernie

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Loonier

ernie wrote:

I found Windows 11 on it

Windows 11 insider runs also on Apple Silicon.
It is a test version that doesn’t need to meet Windows 11 hardware..requirements to run.

Even Microsoft itself, in a desperate move, published a workaround to install Windows 11 on incompatible PCs.

Alex5723 wrote:

Even Microsoft itself, in a desperate move, published a workaround to install Windows 11 on incompatible PCs.

Desperate? The workaround was not recommended.

The point of my post was that I never attempted to ‘upgrade’ that machine to Windows 11. I informed the reader that I had that laptop PC set to get the Insider Preview Channel, not the Beta Channel, but with the ‘update that appeared in my Windows Update, I ended up with Windows 11. The thing that confuses me is that Microsoft chose to put Windows 11 on that machine, not me . . .

Upgrade, shmupgrade. My message to all computer companies is the same: Stop already with the improvements. More often, they make things worse, not better.

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Cybertooth

Yesterday I consented to an update to my Windows 11. After the update was processed I got a message that my profile was invalid. When I logged in ALL my programs needed reinstalling, My personalizations to windows were wiped out. My data was intact but I had hours of work reinstalling programs and tweaking Windows> THANKS MICROSOFT FOR KEEPING ME UP TO DATE

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Cybertooth

I am continually amazed at how upset so many people seem to be about Windows. Despite all of Lance’s carping and the complaints I read continually in this forum and others, it is the dominant OS worldwide and in North America for personal computers. If it is such a bad OS, why does most of the world use it? In point of fact, it seems that most of the complainers in this thread use Windows as their primary OS, in some cases a half-dozen versions of Windows simultaneously.

I make no claim to be anything other than a small business user. I don’t code, and my business requirements don’t push the envelope of what the OS can do. I’ve had to adapt to the various changes to the user interface over the years, and just like everyone else, I have found some of the changes to be annoying. Yet for the last several decades, Windows has been there, working for almost everything and anything I needed it to do.

In fact, working for far more than everything I need it to do. If I sit back and think through my experience with Windows, and I quite frankly amazed at what’s been built into the OS to make it more useful, more flexible and more adaptable. It is the de facto bedrock of small business computing, and while other good alternatives are available, the combination of Windows with MS Office is, for an outfit like ours,  a true powerhouse of functionality.

No, I don’t work for Microsoft. But I do work with the tools that Microsoft has created, and thank Odin that I didn’t have to work out all of this myself. I’m grateful that there is a Microsoft, and happy to pay for its products.

 

at readmorebeaverton,

I was going to say “Get a room” but will instead ask which room will you and M$ be in? (JK)

I seem to remember that when Microsoft pitched Windows 10 way back when, that Windows 10 was the “last operating system”. They implied that all updates would be to Windows 10. I understand that the new hardware and OS security features are superior to what was available years ago when Windows 10 was released. My current hardware in unable to support Windows 11. The thought that support for Windows 10 will END at all is unacceptable. I realize that I’ll probably buy new PCs before 2025 because the old PCs will fail. But I feel Microsoft should continue support until no one is using Windows 10.

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wavy

WSmchldpy wrote:

Not According to Microsoft

There is an implicit assumption that there will be at least one feature release of Windows 11 every year.

Meanwhile, the corpus of Windows 11 must be in support for ten years. The US GSA list requires that any software product must be supported for five years after it is withdrawn from the market. Historically, that has meant support lasts for ten years from the original date of release because there has usually been a new major version of Windows every five years.

I admit this confuses me now. It seems that the annual feature releases must be installed in order to keep a given PC under support. But that seems to violate the intent of the GSA’s policy.

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AlexEiffel, windbg, WSmchldpy

I do believe in the old saying “Don’t believe everything you read”, especially when I’m quoting M$. I’m (assuming) that the GSA is the General Services Administration. If so or if not, could you furnish a link (for a lazy person) so I can read what M$ is supposed to be doing?

Thanks

b wrote:

Desperate?

Yes, Desperate, so people will install the failed so far, even after a year, Windows 11.

Will Fastie wrote:

There is an implicit assumption that there will be at least one feature release of Windows 11 every year.

Hasn’t Microsoft announced 3 years cycle ? We should get Windows 12 in 2024.

M$ announced 2 years on Home and multiple Pro versions, 3 years on Enterprise and Education versions. That means 7 and 8 years if the 5 year GSA rule holds up. Exception on Home, new version should appear before 2 year limit since Home is not eligible for extended support. (GSA 5 year rule)

Tried W11 on my new computer but it would not communicate with the other W10 computers on the local network.  W10 will only be used on the local network until it then the other computers are replaced if every

readmorebeaverton wrote:

Despite all of Lance’s carping and the complaints I read continually in this forum and others, it is the dominant OS worldwide and in North America for personal computers. If it is such a bad OS, why does most of the world use it?

One big factor is sheer lack of knowledge/awareness. Regular people walking into a store looking for a new computer will only rarely either (1) know about the existence of an alternative OS such as Linux, or (2) know to ask for a computer sporting such an alternative OS.

Linux typically isn’t sold, so the marketing budget for it is negligible as it literally doesn’t pay to promote it. Thus the onus is all on the individual customer to learn about alternatives and then seek them out.

On top of this, there is the issue of file compatibility between Windows and, say, Linux systems. Thanks to decades of marketing and use, professional documents and files tend to be created in formats devised by Microsoft, and alternative vendors need to make their software compatible with MS rather than the other way around. For example, much as I’d like to do otherwise, I invariably end up creating and saving my business documents in Word for Windows because anything else runs a real risk of not displaying properly at my customer’s end, and that would put me at a disadvantage vs. other providers of the services I offer.

So, despite the flaws and annoyances of Windows, there is a lot of inertia operating in Microsoft’s favor. As a practical matter, we have little choice but to use it. Doesn’t mean that we have to love Windows or keep quiet about its flaws and annoyances.

Keep Running Windows 7 Safely for Years to Come  
Make Windows 10 look and work like Windows 7

readmorebeaverton wrote:

If it is such a bad OS, why does most of the world use it?

Marketing and Momentum. And first Mover would fit.

🍻

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

WSmchldpy wrote:

What’s seems nonsensical is calling your system hardened while bragging about how fast your restores are.

bbearren wrote:

In January, 2011 I lost two DIY PC’s (and the house) in a house fire. They were both running Retail Windows 7 Ultimate and various installed programs/apps/utilities. My drive images for both were safely stored away.

WSmchldpy wrote:

The Shields Up results indicate your system is hidden well from eyes outside of your LAN but does nothing to stop you or others from bringing in malware or corrupting the system yourself.

bbearren wrote:

“Your system has achieved a perfect “TruStealth” rating. Not a single packet — solicited or otherwise — was received from your system as a result of our security probing tests. Your system ignored and refused to reply to repeated Pings (ICMP Echo Requests). From the standpoint of the passing probes of any hacker, this machine does not exist on the Internet.”

bbearren wrote:

I’ve pooched my machines dozens if not hundreds of times over the years learning how to make Windows do what I want it to do. Restoring my drive images has always been a last resort, because I prefer figuring out what’s going on in Windows innards.

WSmchldpy wrote:

The hardened part is the methods you’ve used to have several clean images and a very fast restore capability due to your partitioning schemes.

Yep, you just said it yourself.  But it is not only my partitioning schemes.

bbearren wrote:

Restoring my drive images has always been a last resort, because I prefer figuring out what’s going on in Windows innards. I still do that with every major upgrade; get rid of what I don’t want, configure Windows the way I want. After a successful upgrade, I create a fresh set of drive images.

And then I start slicing and dicing and putting it all back together the way I want it, creating fresh drive images after each successful step in the process.  While a standard installation of Windows 11 Pro has some unnecessary bloat, mine does not.

Of all the problems noted here at AskWoody by members needing help getting sorted out, I have not had any of those problems.  I don’t pause or block updates/upgrades other than drivers via Group Policy.  My system has every Windows Update that has been offered, and I frequently click on Settings > Windows Update > Check for updates.  I have zero issues.  My routine maintenance is carried out for the most part by Task Scheduler in the wee hours.  I have six different copies of my data in six different places, one of them being OneDrive, two being my offline drive images.

WSmchldpy wrote:

Your response is your images are not corrupted and can’t be corrupted. If you do suffer from Malware/Hardware/Software corruption your images will restore and your installation won’t be corrupted anymore. What?

My system is scanned multiple times a day by Microsoft Defender and Malwarebytes Premium, which gives a very high likelihood that it is not corrupted by malware.  I run dism /online /cleanup-image /restorehealth and after that sfc /scannow two or three times a week, which gives a very high likelihood that my system files are not corrupted.  My drive images are images of an uncorrupted system, and are stored safely offline, where they cannot be corrupted—They’re offline.  Restoring a drive image completely overwrites the existing partition where the restoration is taking place.  What part of that do you not understand?

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

WSmchldpy wrote:

Maybe some grammar/punctuation as there is no comma between the word “documentation” and the word “and”.

To be clear, there is no hard-and-fast rule on the serial/Oxford/Harvard comma. It all depends on the style guide for a particular publication. I don’t believe that AskWoody has one for the use of [any kind of] comma(s).

My thanks to all and have a happy holiday season.  We’re having a bit of topic drift and I’m going to close this post.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

3 users thanked author for this post.

PKCano, access-mdb, WCHS