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Patch reliability is unclear. Unless you have an immediate, pressing need to install a specific patch, don't do it. |
ISSUE 21.33 • 2024-08-12 INTEL By Will Fastie In the nearly 50 years I’ve been following Intel, I’ve never seen the company in such disarray. Things a
[See the full post at: Intel’s troubles]
Steve, 
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rChaz, 
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a, 
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fisher75, 
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Cybertooth, 
SueW, 
DLivesInTexas, 
lmacri Looks like Intel suffers the same problems as that other big American company that makes (no, assembles) planes and rockets.
I was surprised to read here that TSMC is building a foundry in the UK. I live here and have not heard that. Wikipedia says:
In August 2023, TSMC committed 3.5 billion Euros to a 10+ billion Euro factory in Dresden, Germany, with participation of Robert Bosch GmbH, Infineon Technologies and NXP Semiconductors and a 5 billion Euro subsidy from the German government, in exchange for a 70% majority in the resulting European Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (ESMC).
The UK has 12 fabs but not high volume or leading edge from what I read. It is well regard for chip design (e.g. ARM and Pi Foundation) but the economic & political environment plus Brexit is not conductive to international companies and the mega $bn investment needed.
As an aside, I’ve always bought AMD simply to avoid Intel becoming a monopoly although I just relented to buy a used Intel NUC 5th gen as AMD was late to the game and used ones have a high price, but the AMD Ryzen processors are well regarded as superior to Intel. My desktop has a Ryzen and I’m really pleased with the performance, helped by being paired with a Samsung 980 Pro SSD.
TSMC is building a foundry in the UK.
Yes, I goofed on that one. Dresden is correct, and apparently there are no plans for others in Europe.
Disclosure: I’ve been an Intel shareholder for 22 years but might not be for much longer.
this is indeed a troubling time for Intel and we’ll see if they can recover. AMD has also had issues with their latest CPU offereings and TSM has acknowledged problems in building semiconductor Fab factories in the US (primarily workforce issues but maybe others as well). I upgrade my workstation every five years and am currently running a ninth gen i-7 CPU. I don’t need to run an i-9 as I don’t game or do intensive graphics, just office apps and Adobe Lightroom primarily. This has all the power I need.
Regarding the current issues, readers might wish to review what Puget Systems has said about this matter: Puget Systems’ Perspective on Intel CPU Instability Issues | Puget Systems They build systems for a variety of solutions and their data does not seem to show the same failure levels as others.
Will, does your suggestion to avoid all Intel 13th and 14th generation processors apply just to socketed desktop processors or does it include mobile processors (e.g., i7-1355U)? Mobile processors are generally soldered to the motherboard and would require a complete motherboard or laptop replacement.
apply just to socketed desktop processors
I don’t know. Intel’s lack of transparency about this doesn’t give us the full picture, so for now I’ll stick with my recommendation to view all 13th- and 14th-gen processors with suspicion.
My suggestion for laptop owners is to go on record with your vendor, if only by filing a support request asking for clarification and then keeping the reply on record (by which I mean on paper). And keep your eye out for any class-action lawsuits filed on this matter, whether against Intel or OEMs.
Will, thank you for this piece. From our family’s perspective, it is well-timed, as my wife wants me to shop for a new PC for her. I think I’ll pass on the current Intel CPUs and focus on AMD chips. Who needs the headache?
If you already own a PC with a 13th- or 14th-gen Intel processor, get in touch with your vendor and discuss the matter. Demand replacement if and when needed.
I bought two Dell XPS laptops a couple of months ago. Both use 13th gen Core i7-13620H processors. Note the “H” designation.
I have no particular brand loyalty towards Dell. I buy them only because their aftermarket software downloads and updates seem easier to use than those of other vendors.
My experience purchasing the Dell computers was less than satisfactory. No sales rep to call. No way to speak to a human. You input your order on their website and cross your fingers. An earlier order was cancelled for no apparent reason. My inquiry went unanswered.
This experience leads me to believe that it would be difficult to “demand replacement” from Dell. Past experiences with Dell phone support were less than satisfactory. They outsource their tech support to vendors in Asia who work from scripts. Their grasp of English is less than perfect. I have been unable to find any mention of problems with 13th and 14th gen processors on Dell’s website.
I would be interested to know if anyone has suggestions for obtaining a replacement chip from Dell if it becomes necessary.
In case it would benefit other Dell owners, here is the latest contact information I have for Dell Tech support:
Phone hours (EST): 24/7
Dell tech support number: 800-624-9896
Average call time: 8:35
Dell tech support virtual chat link:
https://www.dell.com/support/incidents-online/en-us/contactus
I would be interested to know if anyone has suggestions for obtaining a replacement chip from Dell if it becomes necessary.
You can’t replace chips on laptops, only full replacement or motherboard replacement.
* ..H CPUs are gaming laptops. ..U CPUs office laptops.
You can’t replace chips on laptops, only full replacement or motherboard replacement.
Such a blanket statement is simply not true!
It depends on the specific laptop (i.e. I was able to replace the Intel chips on both my HP and Dell laptops with newer versions.)
I would be interested to know if anyone has suggestions for obtaining a replacement chip from Dell if it becomes necessary.
The key here is to get something into Dell’s database and make a paper copy of it for your records. Also be sure to maintain paper records of the purchase, and keep your account at Dell up to date.
I’d have to fire up my Dell PC to check this, but I’m sure that with the Dell SupportAssist installed on the device, you can push through to enter a support request. That’s all you need to do right now. If you try to get a replacement at this point, you won’t have any evidence that there is anything wrong with your particular unit and Dell will decline. Don’t worry if you don’t get a reply, but if you do, document that, too. In short, start a paper trail and keep it up to date.
If and when further information from Intel identifies more defective chips, or if the RMA process is extended to every 13/14-gen chip, you’ll have the information you need. And that goes for joining a class action if that should emerge.
A week ago I’d have agreed with you, Will, that AMD Ryzen was the way to go in building a Windows PC. Then I read this article with the headline that includes the AMD Ryzen chip I have:
‘Sinkclose’ Flaw in Hundreds of Millions of AMD Chips Allows Deep, Virtually Unfixable Infections
https://www.wired.com/story/amd-chip-sinkclose-flaw/
Swell news! Unfortunately I really feel like we are losing the war against bad guys on so many fronts.
What makes this news even worse. Something not mentioned in the article but, the government, using our tax dollars, gave Intel 20 BILLION dollars in March.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/biden-hails-20-billion-intel-200018481.html
So after getting our money, Intel is still firing 15,000 + employees.
Gotta love the AMERICAN way.
Gotta love the AMERICAN way.
The CHIPS act authorized a total of $280 billion, so Intel is getting only 7.2% of that total. The bulk of it is for building manufacturing facilities in the US.
While I felt some angst about this spending, there is something to be said for the national security implications of dependency upon offshore chip manufacturing.
‘Sinkclose’
There’s a big difference between the number of PCs that contain the bug and those that are actually affected. To trigger Sinkclose, one needs to very up close and personal with the machine, perhaps requiring physical access. As Susan often points out, this sort of thing rarely impacts home, students, and very small businesses.
The article acknowledges that there are no known exploits against a problem that has been around since 2006. The researchers gave their results to AMD ten months ago and AMD has patches ready to go.
My wife’s Lenovo Yoga has a Ryzen processor. I’m not worried.
Apparently, the company completely forgot how well it had handled its 1993 Pentium chip floating-point-division (FDIV) bug
I haven’t forgotten. I had this chip in a desktop machine.
Desktop Asus TUF X299 Mark 1, CPU: Intel Core i7-7820X Skylake-X 8-Core 3.6 GHz, RAM: 32GB, GPU: Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti 4GB. Display: Four 27" 1080p screens 2 over 2 quad.
I haven’t forgotten the Pentium problem either. And I also remember that there was some effort to convince consumers who received the defective chip that it wasn’t really a problem for general computing use but only impacted those that did scientific/computational work. Nice try, no dice. I made them send me a new chip and got what I paid for.
one still has a choice.
Macs with Apple Silicon
I had this chip in a desktop machine.
I had the Pentiums in an entire small company.
Macs with Apple Silicon
Windows on ARM.
I also remember that there was some effort to convince consumers who received the defective chip that it wasn’t really a problem for general computing use
Even at the time, I thought that was true. But even if I take only cold showers, I still expect the valve to deliver hot water on demand.
Windows on ARM in a Parallels VM on a Mac with Apple Silicon.
Very good!
Even at the time, I thought that was true.
Maybe so, but just because I’m not doing scientific/computational work doesn’t mean that some installed application doesn’t use floating point math! Better safe than sorry.
I am a bit confused by this article. My wife recently purchased an HP laptop, the processor is a 13th generation Intel, so, based on an initial reading, this is one that could be problematic. However, the chip is the i7-13554U. This is not the exact chip number set out in the article.
Can someone please clarify if this chip is one that could pose a problem?
Thank you.
application doesn’t use floating point math!
I agree with you completely.
Can someone please clarify if this chip is one that could pose a problem?
No, because Intel has not been transparent. I saw a list this morning in a Gamers Nexus video that had recently been expanded by Intel and included 24 chips. Significantly, Intel’s earlier list identified only those with a K or F modifier, but the newer list mentions several with no modifier at all. The list is intended to tell customers which chips will get a warranty extension.
If you consider the five-digit processor number, such as the 13544 you mentioned, the first two digits are the generation (13 or 14) and the next three digits are the model. So far, the list includes only models for which the first digit in the model number is 9, 7, or 6. That would seem to let you off the hook.
But does it? We can’t know whether Intel is finished with the list.
On YouTube, Gamers Nexus, Level1techs, and other channels with large audiences have been pushing Intel very hard. They are all dissatisfied with Intel’s responses. Intel doesn’t seem to change its position until something has been exposed by a third party, usually in a noisy, YouTube-like way guaranteed to embarrass the company.
Did they ever have success with it?
I would say yes, but nomenclature in this regard is complicated. “9nm” is a two-dimensional concept used to provide a means of calculating chip density. But things have gone 3D. Intel’s 10nm process delivered higher performance at lower power than AMD’s 7nm process, an indication that the nanometer measurement is not entirely valid.
Until this oxidation issue came up, most watchers looked only at power and performance. Frankly, I don’t care what the process is as long as I get the power I want without the chip melting. But I certainly do care if the chip deteriorates over a period of time.
So far Intel has admitted to the K (desktop) versions and not to the laptop H, U versions.
Intel has extended the warranty by two years for K, F, and a few chips with no modifiers. It remains a fluid situation.
MSI Notebook products do not use the affected processors and therefore are not impacted.
How do they know? I want to hear that from Intel.
Fantastic article!!!!! Huge thanks!!!!!
When I got the parts for this desktop at Microcenter I was seriously looking at a 13th gen. A customer wandered (turned out to be a highly experienced private bencher) over and got into the conversation and directed me toward the I9-12900K which I got and of course has performed flawlessly. I, also, never overclock. I like the headroom.
Wow. And I look to the future where I get a new system and I am sure I will be offered tons of 13’s and 14’s, and at irresistible prices. And of course no real way to know it’s true future condition. So 12’s or 15’s??? Fortunately this one will keep me for a while…
Very scary. And I really like Intel. Tried AMD but it didn’t work out for me. Hope they get it together quickly and survive.
Huge thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Question:
a) Possibly. That has been documented.
b) Maybe. Some microcode updates have been released, but as far as I know only for listed chips. And as far as I know, the result of such updates will be lower performance but it’s hard to say how much.
c) Again, hard to say, but I doubt it would be that severe. If my PC ran at half its rated speed, I’d want a refund.
I don’t think buying big is the solution. Instead, we need verified proof that the issue has been dealt with, that some chips can be made safe with updates, or that we can get a replacement with no questions asked.
Path of Titans
Gamers were the first to spot this.
When I got the parts for this desktop at Microcenter I was seriously looking at a 13th gen. A customer wandered (turned out to be a highly experienced private bencher) over and got into the conversation and directed me toward the I9-12900K
ASUS Prime Z790-V WIFI, I9-12900k, Gigabyte 3060Ti, UEFI/GPT, 32GB, Sam 980 Pro 1T M.2 .
I bought the identical setup from Microcenter, at least the MB, I9 and memory bundle is the same. This MB will also accept the 13th and 14th gen Intel CPU. Asus has already released a BIOS update for the MB.
Version 1662 Beta Version 11.08 MB 2024/08/09
When I got the parts for this desktop at Microcenter I was seriously looking at a 13th gen. A customer wandered (turned out to be a highly experienced private bencher) over and got into the conversation and directed me toward the I9-12900K
ASUS Prime Z790-V WIFI, I9-12900k, Gigabyte 3060Ti, UEFI/GPT, 32GB, Sam 980 Pro 1T M.2 .
I bought the identical setup from Microcenter, at least the MB, I9 and memory bundle is the same. This MB will also accept the 13th and 14th gen Intel CPU. Asus has already released a BIOS update for the MB.
Version 1662 Beta Version 11.08 MB 2024/08/09
“The new BIOS includes Intel microcode 0x129 and adjusts the factory default settings for the non-K processors, enhancing the stability of Intel Core 13th and 14th gen desktop processors.
Yes, MC still sells that bundle. I was not aware of the bundles when I went in and walked out a very happy camper. Just add a box & cpu-HSF(coolermaster), PSU(Corsair), a couple M.2 HS’s, etc, and price a lot lower than I had expected!
Thanks for the tip on the BIOS. I was on 1658 so I just went to 1661. I don’t go to betas unless I absolutely have to.
So far, Asus has been excellent – new to me as I used to go Gigabyte…
I had to get a 850VA UPS because Valley was causing my little one to squall, but love it – it ##### flies!!!!! Win 10 and Mint 22. Perfect for me!(I do not do new games, only a couple 20 year old RPGs.)(though I probably could if I put better cooling on it… Don’t like the liquid, though, just big fans! 🙂 )
CoolerMaster TD500 mesh white case, Corsair RM750e fully modular PSU, CoolerMaster Hyper 212 Halo S F 6 R CPU white cooler.
I will also be extremely skeptical towards the next generations of Intel CPUs.
With good reason, but I consider it very likely that the next gen will be perfect. The market has punished Intel severely, but another problem of this magnitude could be fatal.
adjusts the factory default settings for the non-K processors
Which none-K ?
Which none-K ?
The new BIOS includes Intel microcode 0x129 and adjusts the factory default settings for the non-K processors
Yeah, I’m not sure how to read this, and what exactly it is referring to. I was mostly pointing out that Asus has come out with an update for the 13th and 14th gen:
enhancing the stability of Intel Core 13th and 14th gen desktop processors.
Hey Will,
Thanks for your well written article. I was on the fence on weather or not to short Intel; now I am off the fence (smile). Also, my first PC was the IBM Jr., was that an Intel inside the box? What machine had an Intel chip 50 years ago? May The Force be with you, Manny
A year ago I acquired a new “AX” wi-fi capable router. One of my PCs had an Intel AC 7260 dual band AC wi-fi adapter (purchased in 2020.) The adapter works great, but unfortunately there was a known issue that it couldn’t see AX enabled networks unless it had the latest driver package – that fixed the bug.
The problem: Intel’s latest policies seem to be to remove ALL drivers from their support servers for hardware that is considered End of Life/Discontinued. So just as AX is becoming more available, Intel removed access to the driver package that supports wi-fi networks providing AX (in addition to AC/N and earlier.) Because of the 7260’s recent discontinuance, the driver package wasn’t even available from any common archive sites.
These adapters may be EOL to Intel, but they are far from obsolete. Fortunately for hundreds of users of this popular adapter, they were able to obtain the latest driver package from a retired Intel engineer who had made a practice of squirreling away an archive of driver packages as Intel announces their discontinuance.
This Intel policy seems very customer-hostile – how much does it really cost to maintain this small amount of storage so that their loyal customers can obtain drivers from a known trustworthy source? It seems to be yet another sign of a company in decay.
13th Gen Intel Core i9-13900KF (never overclocked):
Random BSODs (of various types!) and instant auto-restarts beginning earlier this year. No identifable cause until this news item appeared – grateful for that because it was causing me and my supplier a great deal of grief.
Intel are prepared to replace, it turns out, but I have to send the device back first, with a turnaround of 1 or 2 weeks! (I assume if I am lucky, that is.) Not yet sure of what guarantee of the replacement being good in this respect there might be.
Intel eventually agreed to send a new processor without the return first; I am still waiting.
Meanwhile, I updated the BIOS: ROG STRIX B760-A GAMING WIFI BIOS 1663
https://rog.asus.com/uk/motherboards/rog-strix/rog-strix-b760-a-gaming-wifi/helpdesk_bios/
(it includes “Intel microcode 0x129 to enhance the stability of Intel Core 13th and 14th Gen processors” – confirmed in place)
– and the crashes have stopped! Running now for about 3 weeks, with the Windows 11 update in the meantime, no problem.
Thanks for the tip on the BIOS. I was on 1658 so I just went to 1661. I don’t go to betas unless I absolutely have to.
Asus just came out with version 1663. The release notes look identical to the 1662 Beta.
PRIME Z790-V WIFI BIOS 1663
Version 1663
11.08 MB
2024/08/14
“The new BIOS includes Intel microcode 0x129 and adjusts the factory default settings for the non-K processors, enhancing the stability of Intel Core 13th and 14th gen desktop processors.
Updating this BIOS will simultaneously update the corresponding Intel ME to version 16.1.30.2307v4. Please note after you update this BIOS, the ME version remains the updated one even if you roll back to an older BIOS later.”
WOW!!!!!!! THANKS!!!!!!!!!
I was hoping they would do something like that. Got errands for a couple hours, then will put it on.
THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
edit – done! Thanks!!
@PL1 how do you find out so quickly about Asus BIOS updates?
I just happened to go in to the site today because I was curious about how many USB3.2 Gen1 Front Panel plugs the MB supported. When I went to look at the manual, the BIOS update was in the same location. So, in this case, I was not looking for it. The first time when I heard about the 13th/14th issue, I was specifically looking. 😁
Will, I highly suggest you begin watching videos from Buildzoid if you want to properly understand what’s going on here. The channel is called Actually Hardcore Overclocking.
It can be difficult to survive the slog of his unscripted videos, but you’ll get a much perspective on at least the motherboard setting issue.
All the other outlets are only skimming the reports and not investigating the symptoms or causes.
There are 2 separate issues being discussed here, and the one where motherboard vendors are at fault is true, as their defaults were running unstable undervolts combined with uncapped limits in order to squeeze the most performance out of their boards and look favourable in reviews. In those cases, a new processor you JUST bought would crash in certain workloads.
The other issue is a failure on Intel’s part when it comes to voltage management, and the current “fix” is only a band-aid that does not actually prevent excessive voltage from being supplied, because it only limits voltage REQUESTS by the CPU to 1.55V, which comes with the baggage of cutting off the voltage-frequency curve at that point. Transients can still exceed that limit, as well as poorly set offsets and loadlines. Normally, VID should NEVER be exceeded but currently it seems to happen routinely. Buildzoid’s working theory is that Intel is overcompensating for a predicted voltage drop that never occurs.
At this time, Buildzoid’s recommendation to handle the degradation issue is to set an IA VR voltage limit of 1400mV, though I’d wager 1450mV is sufficient. You should also verify that your motherboard is respecting Intel’s specifications, with CEP turned on at the bare minimum as that should handle any instability, though it may come at the cost of performance if your motherboard has set bad loadlines. Setting AC_LL to auto should solve that.
As for laptops, you need to look into which chip you have. Some laptops share chips with the impacted desktop variants. If you have one of those, you’re vulnerable. Beyond that, no one can say for sure what is the extent of the weakness at this time.
Oxidation is not part of the degradation problem.
I have never heard of any instance of a processor being seen as unsupported and Intel themselves have stated they are not pushing any fixes through Windows. I would like some references on those claims.
I have never heard of any instance of a processor being seen as unsupported and Intel themselves have stated they are not pushing any fixes through Windows.
Neither have I, but that was reported by multiple sources, including some of the ones I included in my list of references.
Oxidation is not part of the degradation problem.
How can we know? Because Intel tells us?
Yes, because Intel tells us.
Intel’s behavior over the past year does not engender trust. Yes, Intel must disclose financials that must meet SEC requirements, but that does not mean Intel must provide every bit of dirty laundry.
Yes, because Intel tells us.
Intel’s behavior over the past year does not engender trust. Yes, Intel must disclose financials that must meet SEC requirements, but that does not mean Intel must provide every bit of dirty laundry.
[INTEL]-How To Update Your Microcode for Intel HX 13/14th CPUs Laptops/Mobile Easily.
..Since most laptops got outdated Intel ME FW & outdated microcode… this has become a serious problem since the CPUID of Intel HX 13/14th CPUs share the same code with Desktop variants and hence it should be considered Intel HX 13/14th CPUs as a Desktop CPU in a laptop case.
So it means they share the same impact as Desktop variants even if it doesn’t boost enough to be of a concern, it does have relevancy and you now have the option to use this very simple driver that I am sharing it to you here on any Intel HX 13/14th CPUs Laptops/Mobile as long as it has CPUID of B0671…
Thanks to this VMware CPU Microcode Update Driver I can use it on any windows without needing to mess with the BIOS. Safest thing to update microcode…
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