If you’re thinking Win10 LTSB may solve your upgrade-treadmill problems, think again

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Excellent explainer from Gregg Keizer at Computerworld.
[See the full post at: If you’re thinking Win10 LTSB may solve your upgrade-treadmill problems, think again]

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tbsky, Elly, SueW, AJNorth

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The combination of Windows 7 and Group W (no updates, ever) becomes more attractive with each passing day.

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HiFlyer, Sessh, AlphaCharlie, Elly, Microfix, Cousinjack, Cybertooth

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thanks to that, I am seriously considering blocking updates forever and only rely on safe browsing practices…

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So… I could find myself managing Win10 LTSB AMD xxx, Win10 LTSB Intel xxx, where xxx is different chips?
When I was responsible for IT (~250 pc) in my old job, we updated hardware as needed/wanted, which would give me multiple LTSBs to manage??

Sooo glad I’m down to my own, single pc now.

Btw. the CB and CBB still occurs on Microsoft’s pages, but I’m sure, they have everything under control…

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HiFlyer

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Chris (Microsoft)
Ghost Chili
Chris (Microsoft) Nov 22, 2017 at 10:27 PM
Brand Representative for Microsoft

When you purchase a new device, you get the option of adding an OEM license with that device. That is the least expensive way to obtain a full system OS license for Windows 10 Pro.

IF you want to upgrade to Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC license, it is available as an Upgrade license via Volume Licensing. You have the option to include Software Assurance (SA) at the time, and the “bundle” for Windows 10 Enterprise Upgrade w/SA is the Windows 10 Enterprise E3 SKU.

https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2091207-win10-licensing
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Chris (Microsoft) Nov 17, 2017 at 10:55 PM
Brand Representative for Microsoft

If you license Windows 10 Enterprise E3 via Volume Licensing, you have access to the Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC version of Windows 10 – should you choose that OS for the device.

You can purchase the Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC as an Upgrade license via VL, SA is not required to purchase but with SA you will get use rights to future LTSC versions.

https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2089577-win10-ltsb
.
Seems, to use LTSC, companies have to buy Win 10 Pro licenses, buy the upgrade to Win 10 Ent VL and again buy the upgrade to Win 10 Ent LTSC VL = have to pay 3 times.

They can then use Win 10 Ent LTSC 2016 VL on the existing “latest” silicon/CPU(eg today’s Intel 8th-gen Coffee Lake) for about 10 years(= until EOL in 2026). But if the CPU dies early on them, eg after 3 years, too bad = premature EOL = license lost since cannot be replaced by a new computer. A workaround is for the companies to buy new spare computers today.

If they want to upgrade to Win 10 Ent LTSC 2019 or 2022 VL, they will need to also have bought Software Assurance(= pay yearly upgrade insurance premiums) or repeat the earlier process of paying 3 times.

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HiFlyer, AlexEiffel

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You would think that Microsoft would be champing at the bit to populate every enterprise cubicle with a Surface device running Windows 10 of any and all flavors. However, Microsoft has a policy that bans Surface from using LTSB.

Mary Jo Foley reported this back in November 2016 (edited to emphasis)…

“LTSB prevents Surface devices from receiving critical Windows 10 feature updates and certain non-security servicing updates. Therefore, LTSB is not supported as a suitable servicing solution for general-purpose Surface devices … it does not qualify for LTSB”

Other Windows PC makers haven’t imposed similar attempts to limit the ability of users of other Windows 10 devices to make use of LTSB.

Microsoft shoots itself in the back of the head, just to show it can be done.

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Cybertooth

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It’s an overrated edition, it doesn’t differ from any other “cutomized” W10 edition

p.s. 1511 did not get LTSB version

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Overrated?

No Cortana, no Edge, no App Store, no surprise new feature you don’t want or the removal of things like Paint or ReFS, less clutter and bloat…

But mostly stability. You set it the way you want and you won’t have to do it again in a few months, nor adapt to new things you don’t want.

I would love to have this edition. Set it the way you want it, then just have security updates. Fine with me.

 

 

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HiFlyer, James Bond 007, Cybertooth

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I have the theory that there won’t be a LTSB windows ever again

Since I believe WIndows 10 will stop support at 2025

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“End of Extended Support” is currently listed as October 14, 2025, for Windows 10.

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the only bad thing I know about win10 LTSB is the price. it is too expensive to use.

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As always, Microsoft is very helpful, clear, and accessible. Are they blind to the marvelous train wreck unfolding in front of them over forced updates and upgrades and all that?

As Seff has mentioned above, indeed the option to just not install updates at all is becoming more and more appealing. It’s ironic that Microsoft’s grand scheme to keep everyone up to date is actually having the opposite effect.

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I run win 10 ltsb.. I use it for gaming and have zero problems with it..It is what win 10 home and pro should have been .A very fast os.

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Can you believe Win 10 will soon be 3 years old and it still not even look as polished as a Vista initial release? LTSB should have been a real option for this nonsense that WaaS is. Many people would have adopted it if they could choose between this and the WaaS model for the same price and those who wouldn’t, many of them would have regretted their choice.

And if the option was there, Microsoft failure to promote its new world of apps and full interconnection would have been more obvious, although they would have likely blamed the ability to avoid the new WaaS model for the failure.

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Cybertooth

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I am already aware that Microsoft “changed” the rules for LTSB for a long time, as Mr. Keizer already wrote an article about this back in February 2017 :

Microsoft’s support rules for Windows 10 LTSB void allure to enterprise customers

In the response to the question “How will Windows 10 LTSBs be supported?”, it is said :

Windows 10 Long Term Servicing Branches, also known as LTSBs, will support the currently released silicon at the time of release of the LTSB. As future silicon generations are released, support will be created through future Windows 10 LTSB releases that customers can deploy for those systems.

I have recently built an AMD Ryzen system consisting of a Gigabyte GA-AX370-Gaming 5 motherboard and a six core Ryzen 5 1600X CPU. I have Windows 7, Windows 8.1, Windows 10 1507 LTSB and Windows 10 1607 LTSB running on that system (the Windows 10 systems are for testing purposes and not for long term use at this point).

As I understand it, the first 3 systems should be “unsupported” on that system. Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 were already declared unsupported for Ryzen back in January 2016, and Windows 10 1507 LTSB was released before Ryzen and replaced by 1607 LTSB before the release of Ryzen in March 2017, so it apparently should be unsupported on Ryzen.

Right or wrong? Is 1507 LTSB not supported on Ryzen? How about 1607 LTSB?

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

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Previously the systems were running on an old Gigabyte P67 motherboard and patched to December 2017 using the Group B approach. All the operating systems booted fine on the new system. I can install the AMD 17.30 chipset drivers (for Windows 7 and Windows 10) on that system on Windows 7 / Windows 8.1 / Windows 10 1507 LTSB (even though it won’t directly install on Windows 8.1 there is a way of installing the drivers within on Windows 8.1). I also installed the security updates KB4056897 / KB4056898 / KB4056893 on the three systems respectively. (Yes, I know the installation will be blocked on Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 but I used DISM to install the updates anyway.)

As far as I can see, all three systems ran fine after installing the chipset drivers and (before and after) the Meltdown update.

At this point, supported or unsupported, with or without future updates, I will continue to run Windows 7 / Windows 8.1 / Windows 10 1507 LTSB on the new Ryzen system for as long as I like.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

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From the article: “… in early 2017, the company ruled that “LTSBs will support the currently released silicon at the time of release of the LTSB [emphasis added],” and that as new processors appeared from the likes of Intel and AMD, “support will be created through future Windows 10 LTSB releases that customers can deploy for those systems.””.

Was the Ryzen available at the 1507 release time? Not even close from what I can read… you should have been unable to use both that and 1607 and forced to 1703 according to the Microsoft statement.

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Jan K. wrote:

Was the Ryzen available at the 1507 release time? Not even close from what I can read… you should have been unable to use both that and 1607 and forced to 1703 according to the Microsoft statement.

“Should have been unable to use both that and 1607 and forced to 1703”

Obviously that is not what I saw myself, as both 1507 and 1607 run fine on my Ryzen system, and softwares I need like Firefox, iTunes and Mediacoder all run fine on them.

Besides, LTSB is a special build of Windows 10 Enterprise that will NOT be offered feature upgrades like Creators Update (1703) and Fall Creators Update (1709). So unless a newer LTSB build is available (like the promised 2019 LTSB) and I install the new build myself, my LTSB 2015 (1507) and LTSB 2016 (1607) systems will be left as they are and won’t ever be forced to a newer build.

LTSB is the only version of Windows 10 I will consider using if I need to run Windows 10 in the future, as I can enjoy stability with this version (like Windows 7 (SP1) and Windows 8.1 (Update)) and not need to deal with annoying and unwanted “feature upgrades” twice a year. The fact that it has no Cortana, no Edge, and no App Store are added bonuses that I like.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

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@ Jan K

M$ only released processor-blocking updates(= Patch Rollups) in April 2017 to block all Win 7/8.1 computers running Kabylake/Ryzen processors from receiving security updates. …
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/new-processors-are-now-blocked-from-receiving-updates-on-old-windows/ .
Kabylake was released to the market in November 2016. Ryzen was released to the market in March 2017. So, there is a time gap between the two.

According to M$’s support policy, Ryzen is supported on Win 10 Ent LTSC 2016, but not on Win 10 Ent LTSC 2015. Whether Ryzen can run Win 10 Ent LTSC 2015 and still be supported by M$ depends on when M$ will release processor-blocking cumulative updates for it. Seems, M$ have not yet done so, according to James Bond 007. But M$ can do so at any time, ie stop support for Win 10 Ent LTSC 2015 running Ryzen processors, like what they did to Win 7/8.1 running Ryzen processors.

Most likely, the coming Win 10 Ent LTSC 2019 will only be supported by M$ on 9th-gen Intel processors or newer, ie processor-blocking updates will be released by M$ to block 8th-gen processors or older.

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Update : After installing KB4056898 on Windows 8.1 running on the Ryzen system, Windows 8.1 started having crashes and blue screens.

I thought this looks suspiciously like one of the problems described in the KB4056898 page : “After installing this update, some systems running both PIC and APIC interrupt controllers may experience system crashes.”

I restored a working image prior to the update, then instead of KB4056898, I installed the update fix KB4077561 (just released by Microsoft) which was supposed to fix this issue, then restarted the computer.

There seems to be no more crashes on Windows 8.1 after installing the KB4077561 update, which I believe superseded the KB4056898 update here. InSpectre reports that the system is “updated for full awareness of the Meltdown and Spectre vulnerabilities”, so I believe the Meltdown security update has been successfully installed via KB4077561, even though AMD Ryzen is supposedly immune to the Meltdown vulnerability.

So now Windows 8.1 with the chipset drivers and KB4077561 installed is working fine with my AMD Ryzen system.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

2 users thanked author for this post.

WildBill, MrBrian

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Thank you for your report :).

There is an ongoing discussion about this at https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/more-problems-with-this-months-patches/.

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The AMD 17.30 chipset drivers also install successfully on the Windows 10 1607 LTSB system, and so does the KB4056890 cumulative update.

So all four systems (Windows 7 / Windows 8.1 / Windows 10 1507 LTSB / Windows 10 1607 LTSB) work fine on my new AMD Ryzen system, and the January 2018 security updates all install successfully on each system (via DISM in the case of Windows 7 and 8.1).

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

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Well, at least finally a good way they managed to mess up their system!

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Tweet from Michael Niehaus: ‘One clarification/correction: You don’t have to a clean install to move from LTSB to a “normal” Semi-Annual Channel release. You can do an in-place upgrade.’

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Microsoft would have it so much easier if they respected the good spirit idea behind the insider program. Give people what they want. If they like to try the new features and comment on real life production machines with the WaaS service model for some machines, fine. If they prefer stability on others, fine too. It is not bad to have some people use production machines with all the things that Microsoft throws at them. A lot of things in the past got thrown in there without huge bad consequences, but got the boot after a few years, Microsoft realizing it wasn’t such a great idea. Examples? Gadgets, Charms bar, Start Menu issues with 8, too much touch centric interface and no window except a full window in Windows, Cortana in the start menu, etc.

You could run the twice a year Windows version with the ability to delay one or two versions, or you could choose to run the LTS version and be forced to upgrade only after 5 years. Same price, just offer the choice, for the benefit of the user. You can switch from one to another. They would get much more adoption if they did that and also solved the privacy concerns.

Some gesture in the right direction?

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/windows-diagnostic-data-viewer-windows-10

 

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@ AlexEiffel

Your recommendation is good. But still no dice for me as long as there’s forced auto-updates in Win 10.

Win 7 Group C or W is the end of the road for me. Luckily, I have the little know-how to go on the Linux road, which also happens to be toll-free.

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AlexEiffel

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I understand your position.

For me, if I was on an LTS version that was stable and just got security updates, I could live with the actual options to delay them for a little while and then have them installed when safe, just like any previous version of Windows. I don’t see much value in never installing security only updates or delaying them that long. To me, making them mandatory after a while doesn’t feel like such a big deal.

The problem to me is much more the mandatory delivery of new features and changes in the OS. That’s the real pain, because it does distract you from work since it doesn’t just fix a security problem without altering in any way your computer experience, generally.

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@ AlexEiffel

It is through forced auto-cumulative-updates that M$ are able to use processor-blocking updates to enforce their support policy of “new silicon/CPU on only new Versions of Win 10”, in order for M$ to make more profit$, … eg Win 10 Ent LTSC 2019 will not be supported on “old” 7th-gen and/or 8th-gen Intel KabyLake and/or CoffeeLake CPUs.

Using Win 10 Ent LTSC 2016 on computers with 6th-gen or 7th-gen Intel SkyLake or KabyLake CPUs until EOL in 2026 may not be a viable option for some users, eg the Meltdown and Spectre CPU bug.

There is no freedom of choice with Win 10. It’s “M$’s way or the highway”.

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AlexEiffel

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Be nice to actually be updated but remain in a version of Win 10 for at least a couple years. Lot of the new features I could care less about. Just more filler for my storage device, lot of it I cannot even get rid of easily.

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