How good is Mac software vs. Windows software, really?

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PUBLIC DEFENDER By Brian Livingston The flame wars over whether Apple programs and apps are better or worse than Windows programs and apps have raged
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I think your summary is pretty fair with one exception: the operating system. I was a PC user from 1985 to 2007, and then I switched to Mac, so I’m pretty familiar with both. However, here is a scenario I often pose to people:

“Have you heard Apple/MS has a new operating system! Are you excited or terrified?” You know the answer. When Apple comes out with a new OS, I install it immediately; when it’s MS, I delay as long as possible.

Steve Jobs was correct (for the most part): It just works. I have never had to reformat an Apple drive, and I have upgraded from Snow Leopard to Sequoia. That’s 15 iterations without a problem. And, while I periodically scan my computer for viruses and other malware, I’ve never found anything, so I don’t have to run AV in the background.

For me personally as a professor and education consultant, these are all significant advantages that outweigh the other points about the limitations of software available, poor gaming experience, the lack of flexibility, and price.

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I’ve been on a PC almost since the time of its introduction.  It was the standard for office work in the jobs I held.  I’ve been building my own workstations for 15 years now and the ease of customization and cost are far cheaper than buying an Apple product.  That being said, the one place Apple really shines is with their Macbook and the Fourscore program for music performing.  I’ve been a choral singer for years, and this piece of software on a Macbook Pro is revelatory.  I have probably 300 choral pieces and songs on it, all easily organized into set lists.  I don’t have to lug around folders of printed music any longer!!!

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Will Fastie, rc primak

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Build your own and business class networking have never been strong selling points for Mac. Apple prefers you just take the configurations they offer right out of the box. Networking, especially with Windows and Linux machines, is not easy, when it works at all.

-- rc primak

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Will Fastie, Cybertooth

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OK. I have no desire to install and run Windows on my new Macbook (still learning and configuring and adding utilties), BUT, I would like to know the reality of things like WINE from people that actually use (or have used) it to run windows programs not available on Mac. I have a small list of things I cannot find for Mac or prefer on Windows. For example of a larger app, Quicken. Smaller: Faststone Capture. Even Synctoy is severly missed and will not be replaced by a $50 ChronoSync 🙂

What do you know?

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Crossover is the commercial version of WINE for Linux, maybe also for Mac. Quicken is said to be reasonably compatible with this arrangement.

Faststone Capture is said to have worked in the past under WINE, but not so much recently.  Never said to have worked on Mac.

Synctoy does not appear to be planning to offer a Mac version.

-- rc primak

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Not what I asked, but thanks. I can check their apps databases myself, and have. I ‘s like to hear from folks using or have used WINE (or Crossover – and yes for MAC) and how it worked, what it broke, do they recommend, etc.

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rebop2020 wrote:

Not what I asked, but thanks. I can check their apps databases myself, and have. I ‘s like to hear from folks using or have used WINE (or Crossover – and yes for MAC) and how it worked, what it broke, do they recommend, etc.

I use the free whiskey app (it uses wine) to run Steam for Windows on my MacBook.  It works well when I run Half-Life 2.  the performance is great but with a couple of minor issues,  I have to start the game before plugging in the external monitor.  Sound will play through the headphone jack or laptop speakers but not through my bluetooth connected AirPods. Those problems may be solvable, not sure, haven’t really investigated.

I may get crossover at some point. I sounds like its a little more polished. Currently Whiskey does what I need for free.

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rc primak wrote:

Build your own and business class networking have never been strong selling points for Mac. Apple prefers you just take the configurations they offer right out of the box. Networking, especially with Windows and Linux machines, is not easy, when it works at all.

I have no issues networking to NAS and PC’s except I would refer an automount when reconnected to my dock. Windows does this wonderfully well. Cannot understand why Mac is so primitive this way unless discouraging corporate use.

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rc primak

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The vast amount of people using a Mac do not need the power of Word, Excel or PowerPoint. Myself included, even though I have a subscription to M365. I hate using the products anymore.

Between Apple’s Pages, Notes, and if anything else, Google Docs, I can’t imagine urging a single user to pay Microsoft for their products. The only times I find it needed is for writers (my wife’s one) and people sharing work with people on M365. For average users, Apple products are fine and getting better. Notes is a fabulous note-taking product these days, Apple’s spreadsheet is fine. All this just for the price of the OS. How can you lose?

And the OS is vastly more stable. Having been an IT consultant for decades, having extensively used both platforms, I can see virtually no reason to recommend Windows today. The money you save is quickly used up in frustration and irritating updates.

I have to use both and avoid Windows as much as I can.

Oh, and I use Parallels to run Windows when needed, no need for actual hardware.

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As an experience user of both Mac and Windows systems, I am not sure how to react to this latest episode in the saga about a very experienced Windows user trying a Mac for, apparently, the very first time.

However,  there appear to be some large gaps in peoples knowledge and I certainly do not find the setup as difficult as you seem to imply. In fact I can get a Mac up and running in about 30% of the time to get a new Windows machine, which I consider a plus. But take the point that it can be confusing if you do not take the defaults. The consequences of which you will eventually find out.

Although Brian’s list of included software was not intended to be complete, he missed two quite important applications that are included: iMovie and Garage Band which are quite substantial applications that are not included with Windows. iMovies is a cut down, easier to use, version of Final Cut Pro and Garage Band is a cut down but still quite functional version of Logic Pro.

Perhaps more importantly there are applications that include functionality that require separate applications or add ons in Windows. E.g. Preview which does a great job of showing PDFs (As well as many other document and photo formats) and allowing some editing. It also includes things like allowing you sign documents and PDFs using your actual signature. Again add ons in the Windows world.

One readers claim that apps to deal with PDFs (Preview), ZIP files (Built into Finder) and screen capture (Screen Capture) are very expensive for Macs does not recognize the fact that very functional apps  are included with Mac OS at no cost. And yes sometimes you need more functionality in all those areas but they provide a very reasonable degree of functionality at zero cost. As always you can get apps that give more functionality at additional cost but my experience is that in the Mac OS world they are no more expensive than in the Windows world. For example I have a very comprehensive ZiP utility, RAR application for Mac OS that cost nothing.e.g, RAR Extractor. And again, remember, I have a lot of Windows experience and know that there are lot of free apps most of which seem to have very dubious capabilities as well some excellent functions.

Why I am saying all this? I am not a Mac OS proselytizer, I use both Windows and MacOS but in the last 20 odd years of both Windows and Mac OS experience the only thing I can say that Windows does better is Games since Apple do not support decent graphics cards and have never really given any development effort to the Games market for some reason. I do not play games so it is not an issue for me, but I know it is a big deal for some people and the single most important reason to avoid the Mac OS platform.

Oh, and a final throw away, that comment about the included ‘office’ suite (Pages, Number and Keynote) is just opinion and yes, the MS suite is better for professional users in a mixed Mac OS and Windows environment but I know a substantial number of ‘professional’ people who uses the free suite from Apple with no issues (they can generate the MS file formats and Keynote is way better than Powerpoint for some people). Me I don’t care, but the way that these Apple alternatives is thrown away is just not reasonable. Remember they do something that Windows does not do, give away a very functional office suite with every copy of the OS.

Having said all this, I am really fascinated by seeing this view in a Windows dominated web site.

Thanks Brian, an interesting if, to me, somewhat of a conflicted update.

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Toa Of Justice, WSalgrinch, Myst, satrow, Will Fastie, Alex5723, PKCano

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I continue to use MS Office on my Mac mini mostly because my wife still devoted to Word and I would hate to give up the full version of OneNote. Also, you tend to stick with what you’re used to. Despite the cost, I keep it because the Family subscription is a relative bargain. That said, I  know Mac users who are perfectly happy with Apple’s suite.

If you’re looking for something in between — free but Office-like — LibreOffice is a good option. It has excellent Office compatibility and I found that it includes simple drafting tools that I’ve appreciated when designing and building custom cabinets.

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rc primak, Will Fastie

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Peter Jackson wrote:

Perhaps more importantly there are applications that include functionality that require separate applications or add ons in Windows. E.g. Preview which does a great job of showing PDFs (As well as many other document and photo formats) and allowing some editing. It also includes things like allowing you sign documents and PDFs using your actual signature. Again add ons in the Windows world.

Microsoft Edge can view, edit and sign PDFs in Windows without add-ons; and display 18 document or photo formats.

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rc primak

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Peter Jackson wrote:

I am really fascinated by seeing this view in a Windows dominated web site.

I hope the fascination is widespread!

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8string

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b wrote:

Peter Jackson wrote:

Perhaps more importantly there are applications that include functionality that require separate applications or add ons in Windows. E.g. Preview which does a great job of showing PDFs (As well as many other document and photo formats) and allowing some editing. It also includes things like allowing you sign documents and PDFs using your actual signature. Again add ons in the Windows world.

Microsoft Edge can view, edit and sign PDFs in Windows without add-ons; and display 18 document or photo formats.

As does Safari. However both Edge and Safari do not have the functionality of Preview and I am always leery of using a browser to view my documents (irrational though that may be).

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Peter Jackson wrote:

However both Edge and Safari do not have the functionality of Preview

Which functions of Preview does Edge not have?

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b wrote:

Peter Jackson wrote:

However both Edge and Safari do not have the functionality of Preview

Which functions of Preview does Edge not have?

I cheated and got Perplexity to categorize this for me (sorry, it was just easier than trying to remember the issues I had with Edge)

1. Filling Out and Signing Forms: In macOS Preview, you can fill out PDF forms and sign them using enhanced AutoFill or a digital signature tool. Edge has limited form-filling capabilities and lacks advanced signing tools.
2. Annotating PDFs: Preview allows you to highlight text, add comments, and annotate PDFs extensively. Edge’s PDF viewer has basic annotation features but lacks the depth provided by Preview or Adobe Acrobat.
3. Editing PDFs: Preview supports basic editing such as rearranging pages, merging files, or cropping content. Edge does not allow editing beyond simple annotations.
4. Handling Large Files: Preview and other macOS apps like Adobe Acrobat can handle large PDF files more reliably than Edge, which has limitations with file sizes above 1.1 GB.
5. Advanced Viewing Options: Preview offers features like continuous scrolling, thumbnail navigation, table of contents display, and dual-page viewing for a tailored reading experience. Edge’s viewer is more basic in comparison.
6. Saving Changes Locally: Mac apps like Preview save edits directly to the file without requiring workarounds, whereas Edge users may encounter issues saving changes to PDFs due to browser settings or corrupted installations.

 

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Edge has PDF autofill, highlight, text, draw, comment, merge, contents, thumbnails, dual-page, save changes locally without workarounds. Perplexity has over-emphasized any differences.

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rc primak

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I guess to me the point is that Edge is available on both the Mac and Windows. I use it daily on both when I am doing consulting.

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Apple’s “I’m a Mac vs. I’m a PC” commercials from back in the day really nailed many of the issues:

Traditionally, Mac users have primarily been  concerned with appearance, popularity, and ease of use

…while PC users have been concerned with performance, freedom, and price.

My preferred platforms have been PC (Windows & Linux), but I’ve also used Apple plenty — mostly in a work environment, developing software targeting Mac devices.

My biggest hang-ups with Apple has been their “our way or the highway” attitude. A user building software shouldn’t be forced to buy a developer license from Apple to distribute their software far and wide. The ability to sideload apps freely, without using the App Store should have been standard a lonnnnnng time ago.

Being forced to buy [wayyy overpriced] Apple hardware is also crazy.

Mac software has improved drastically since Apple ditched MacOS and moved to Intel chips. Hopefully they will continue moving forward with Apple Silicon.

DOS/Windows/Linux et.al. have always provided a wealth of freedom and choice. With competition comes lower prices — both for software and hardware.

DOS and Windows typically improved with each version. The exceptions being, Windows Millennium, Windows Vista [prior to SP2], and everything Windows 10 [a hodgepodge of versions] and later.

Ever since MSFT’s new CEO, it feels like they want to make their products like Apple with all the disadvantages that entails. It’s like: if I wanted a Mac, I buy a Mac.

Anyways, I’ve basically shifted from 75% Linux, 25% Windows to 99% Linux, 1% [VM] Windows.

IMO, modern MSFT has really lost it’s way — not enough to push me to AAPL, but enough for me to plan that I will not be moving to Win11.

Thankfully, Linux also embraces the strong tradition of variety and competitive software that DOS/Windows held from yesterdecades.

“I’m a PC!”, but I’m not opposed to making changes if Apple does good things in the future.

I was recently impressed with the suggestion that AAPL may pull their products out of the UK market rate than comply with secret government orders to backdoor their crytographic security protocols.

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Cybertooth

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What is your time worth? Mine’s worth a minimum of $100 an hour to my clients. Some double that. Could they have used me vastly less by paying a bit more for hardware? Absolutely. So some thoughts: “:…while PC users have been concerned with performance, freedom, and price.” I use both daily, I’ve never had an issue with performance or so called “freedom” on either. as to price, how many f**** hours have all of us spent on stupid issues with Windows updates, etc etc. This entire site exists because of all the hassles we get the privilege to fix “for free”. I’ve wasted far more time on Windows than I have even begun to waste on Mac. Thousands of hours of frustration. I’m sure you have too. So don’t talk to me about price. I’ve paid a very high price for using Windows machines. 

“Being forced to buy [wayyy overpriced] Apple hardware is also crazy.” Once again, pay me now or pay me later. I spent dozens of hours with one of the most expensive Lenovo laptops fighting freezing and rebooting, over and over again. I sent it back three times. Lenovo was terrible to deal with. Have I *ever* had that problem with 20 years of Apple hardware? No. None. Zero. 

Is Windows 11 vastly better/more stable than Windows 10, 9, etc. ? Yes. I think. Though my Lenovo experience was with 11 last fall. Where was the problem?  Graphics Card? Hardware failure? The fact that it was an AMD chip rather than Intel? On Apple it just f***ing works.

The biggest problem I see on Apple is people trying to buy the cheapest model, not realizing they need more. 128 or 256 GB SSD when they will almost immediately need 512. Buying 8 GB RAM when they immediately need 16, though even that is less an issue with Mac than I see with Windows.

 

 

 

 

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I FULLY realize what is built into Mac, but as a POWER USER they are lacking. Zip, for example, will not look into a tar.gz, allow me to delete a file or replace a file and maintain the comopressed file. I do this weekly on the PC with 7-zip. Free.

PDF built in does not remember settings like one page view and size. Not even remembering to close the settings or formatting or whatever panes opened by its choice of default to view as I desire.

On and on. Even paid utilities, like screen capture are inferior to FastStone Capture/. Just look at the immature text blurring on EXPENSIVE screen capture.

So yes, fully aware. Just as aware for the same that is included in Windows. And as anemic.

I wish people would say that things are sufficient for THEM and that is fine, but without impying they should be fine for everybody.

And Numbers is not CLOSE to Excel. Nor Pages to Word. Bless you if they are enough for your needs.

Apologies if I am actually replying to more posts that the one quoted. I’ll remove the quoted, long text….

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Well, I believe that you have some features in some software on Windows not found on the Mac. However, I have a real hard time thinking that making a blanket statement about power users needing Windows seems a stretch since Apple and millions of other developers, “power users” and others doing advanced work in science and elsewhere have not needed Windows “power” over Apple’s. Even Microsoft’s Mac team uses and has used Macs for decades to develop software. I don’t know how many of them, or what other tools they currently use (my experience with them was some time ago) but I doubt they are only on Windows for their dev work. And Power users encorporate some of the most sophisticated video editing done in Hollywood and elsewhere. Not as much since Apple bailed on the original Final Cut, but still plenty.

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“Well, I believe that you have some features in some software on Windows not found on the Mac. However, I have a real hard time thinking that making a blanket statement about power users needing Windows seems a stretch …”

Never said that. A total obliteration of my comments that built-in Mac “tools” may not be sufficient for Power Users. And some utilities, even building block features like Finder, are superior in Windows. Some built-in in Mac are wonderful like the hidden scripts to tidy up after themselves and lack of Registry and Event Viewer and even a Shortcut for QR codes. But many things lack or have no equivalent and, like the price of SSD or RAM in Macland, the utilties are also dramatically overpriced. IMHO, of course. But I am not alone.

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A lot of DIY computer builds are done by gamers, hence the proliferation of lots of websites that test builds and components for that community.  I don’t know of many games that are ported to MacOS (I’m not a gamer and have played exactly one game that came bundled free with a GPU that I bought maybe 12 years ago).  Most of my work is photography, financial analysis, and office work (though retired, I’m chair of a modest size non-profit).  I’ve been building my own PC workstations since 2008.  I’m free to choose the components that I need along with the amount of RAM and storage.  I can realize a significant savings over buying a comparably configured Mac system.  DIY is not for everyone (and I don’t know what the percent of Ask Woody users who build their own) but the savings are real.

 

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Hey Y’all,

I hang my toilet paper over the top! Same argument, same results…

PC stands for PERSONAL computer, so get what meets your PERSONAL needs and budget.

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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bbearren, Will Fastie, Cybertooth

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RetiredGeek wrote:

PC stands for PERSONAL computer, so get what meets your PERSONAL needs and budget.

For me, the qualifying issue is budget. I’ve been DIY since the late ’90’s, and I can spec and build a Windows PC cheaper than I can buy an equivalent OEM computer, and much cheaper than an equivalent Apple. A laptop that meets my personal specs is much cheaper from a Windows OEM than from Apple.

While I’m duly aware that there are a number of folks who have issues with Windows updates, I’m not one of them. Then again, DIY means an absence of OEM bloatware, and pruning the MS bloatware out of Windows isn’t all that difficult.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Cybertooth

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rebop2020 wrote:

“Well, I believe that you have some features in some software on Windows not found on the Mac. However, I have a real hard time thinking that making a blanket statement about power users needing Windows seems a stretch …”

Never said that. A total obliteration of my comments that built-in Mac “tools” may not be sufficient for Power Users. And some utilities, even building block features like Finder, are superior in Windows. Some built-in in Mac are wonderful like the hidden scripts to tidy up after themselves and lack of Registry and Event Viewer and even a Shortcut for QR codes. But many things lack or have no equivalent and, like the price of SSD or RAM in Macland, the utilties are also dramatically overpriced. IMHO, of course. But I am not alone.

Totally agree that the built in tools are only adequate in Mac OS (at best) and do not provide all the functions that may be needed for someone who is has specific and focused needs. I have a lot of 3rd party tools I use when needed in Mac OS. I think the whole point of this discussion on tools is that although Mac OS is much more focused on the user who does not want or need special tools that add functions to some of the built in tools and allow some customization to their environment, it does have a handy set of usable ‘basic’ tools. I would also note that my Unix/Linux skills come in handy with Mac OS as it is built on a Linux/Unix OS type design so, if I need to go under the hood, I open terminal and tweak an number of things in the OS to make it do what I want, including those Daemons to which you refer. I even have apps that run entirely in the Terminal environment (just like Windows and Power Tools).

I don’t think any of us is challenging the fact that Windows is more friendly to the person who likes to customize their experience, but this tends to be because Windows has to deal with a lot of different environments and it is often necessary to to get under the hood to make it work. I have been using Windows since it first came out (my first experiences in the PC world were designing cross compilers for the 4004/8008 and 8080 back in 1972 to 1974) and have worked with Windows since the rather poorly designed Windows 1 (I still have the box and disks!!). I have a Unix and CP/M for PCs background.

To me, although Windows has a much more customizable environment, I end up working in my Mac environment when I want something to ‘just work’ and want to concentrate on using my apps e.g. Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro. I rarely find that when I open a Windows session that something does not need tweaking or updating and I have been building Windows/Linux machines from 1974 so am used to this.

As regards 3rd party applications, long gone are the days when Mac apps were just toys and are much more comparable to their Windows counterparts.

So just let’s agree that there is a place for all environments (Mac OS , Windows/Linux) and let’s just focus on the challenges when using a new environment when all your experience is one of the other environments (and I note that some of the people have plenty of experience in all or some of the environments). It is useful to see the challenges so that we can improve things and learn from the challenges.

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Cybertooth, rebop2020

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None of the Windows OS build-in utilities is worth even a dime.
Copy, uninstall, backup, a/v, browser, audio/video player… none.
If Windows users want something properly done they turn to 3rd party software, preferably portable as any software installation spread files in Windows OS, the registry…

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windbg, rc primak

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rebop2020 wrote:

Not what I asked, but thanks. I can check their apps databases myself, and have. I ‘s like to hear from folks using or have used WINE (or Crossover – and yes for MAC) and how it worked, what it broke, do they recommend, etc.

I spent the money and bought Crossover.  It works way better than the free whiskey app. I suspect if you spent some time with whiskey installing the right packages and configuring it you could achieve similar performance.

I installed steam using the crossover install package and installed a few games, Fallout3, Doom3, Dungeon Siege and half-life 2.  They run really well and have no problem firing up with my external monitor, speakers and keyboard.  I also noticed the computer isn’t working as hard.  It’s not eating the battery or getting warm.  Andrew Tsai on youtube does a great job showing games running on Crossover and critiquing performance.  I used his discount code to buy Crossover. https://www.youtube.com/@Andytizer   Discount til March 25 APPLEGAMINGWIKINEW

He runs some pretty demanding games through Crossover.  It works quite well in my mind..

 

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Thanks.

I have removed Crossover. Quicken, which they claim to support near perfectly, had display and performance glitiches. One other app they say works well did not for me. Crashed. No other Windows app installed or ran that I tested out of 8 small apps. And support was terse and not particulalry helpful. Add insult – their Uninstall App left behind files and folders.

Maybe it works well with games, but I am not a gamer.

Could not recommend to anyone, alas.

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rebop2020 wrote:

Thanks.

I have removed Crossover. Quicken, which they claim to support near perfectly, had display and performance glitiches. One other app they say works well did not for me. Crashed. No other Windows app installed or ran that I tested out of 8 small apps. And support was terse and not particulalry helpful. Add insult – their Uninstall App left behind files and folders.

Maybe it works well with games, but I am not a gamer.

Could not recommend to anyone, alas.

It seems pretty good at translating Direct X to Metal, I’m guessing whatever apps you are using  call on packages in windows that are not well translated.

To tell you the truth I’m surprised when anything being translated from x86 to ARM works at all…. when I’m playing a game I feel like I’m watching a monkey play the piano…

I’m guessing the more Windows embraces ARM the less of a problem this will be…..

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