Hotmail's social networking busts your privacy

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	TOP STORY[/size][/font] Hotmail’s social networking busts your privacy[/size]
	By Woody Leonhard In its rush to take on Facebook and Google Buzz, Microsoft is now collecting and displaying personal information on your Hotmail page you may never have wanted to broadcast. Exactly how it’s mining this information is something of a mystery, but if you use Hotmail or Windows Live, it’s time to review your privacy settings — lest something you said or did comes back to haunt you.[/size]

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The full text of this column is posted at WindowsSecrets.com/2010/04/22/01 (opens in a new window/tab).

Columnists typically cannot reply to comments here, but do incorporate the best tips into future columns.[/td]

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Thanks for the article. I had no idea all this personal info was being shared and out in the open.

You are right about the permissions pages… there’s a ridiculous amount of options and boxes to be unchecked. Most people wouldn’t bother going through them all (which is probably the idea). Would be nice if the default wasn’t “Everyone (public)” for many of the options, too.

Clicking on permissions for Photos or Files brings up an error page:

XML Parsing Error: not well-formed
Location: http://cid-be6ea5d9f03a05bd.skydrive.live.com/albums.aspx
Line Number 47, Column 184:

/* Copyright (C) 2009 Microsoft Corporation */function $c_TreatTile(a,e){a.style.display=e;var d=a.width,c=a.height,b=19;if(d>=c||c<b)a.height=b;if(d<c||d<b)a.width=b}

I also saw status updates from Live Messenger from months ago which I wouldn’t want saved for all to see.

Social networking gone crazy.

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What an interesting Article. I think I have some more information on it that really will show how devious Microsoft has been in this blatent “Invasion of Privacy”. I do have Proof of it in several ways.

My Background is that I am retired and disabled now. As a Hobby I repair Computers for disadvantaged people, their only charge is for Parts I have to buy in, if I don’t have spares for it, Labour is Free, but I do ask them to use their abilities to help me out in what I can no longer do. Such as Mow the Lawn, Clean up. We are all happy with that.

In January, this year, I was hit by a Virus/Malware from Windows Live Messenger, later traced back to originating from gmail from China. It was seemingly sent from my Neighbour’s Computer on 2nd January, 2010, yet same neighbour had borrowed a shovel from me to do work at his Church. He, unlike me uses his Computer for Business purposes. I did not open it, just waited for him to come home, then called him over and showed him what I had received, still without opening it. We agreed to watch it over the weekend, just to see what would happen. Another one came 3rd January, another 4th January. Later one arrived on 9th January.

It is possible to see what’s inside a Message by right clicking on it and selecting “View Message source” My neighbour was doing that and copying what was inside, when he inadvertantly left clicked it and released the Virus/Malware, suspected to be HTML based. To this day is has not been detected, just only the way it generates Files leading to a total take over.

My Computer over the next few days became inoperatable leading to total shutdown. HDD was rendered useless, beyond recovery. During the way it took out ALL Defenses I had installed.

I actually received an email from my ISP, later, informing me that my Computer was acting like a Zombie before it crashed, due to my interference. I do have some abilities, backed up by my Peers. To see HiJackThis taken out was quite an experience to us all.

I went online with other Computers that were set up with Windows Live Messenger only to see them also fail.

I set up a Computer without Windows Live Messenger and just accessed my Hotmail from the Net. (That can be done by going to http://www.msn.com and up the top on the extreme right, it is extreme. Click on Hotmail) (This yet another “Hidden Part”) The four aboved mentioned emails I placed in a seperate Folder, called “Suspicious Emails”. As I normally do with them.

During consultation with my Peers and AV Companies, whilst trying to copy what was inside, I inadvertenly left clicked on one of the emails. That made a flurry of rejects of Postmaster, that I picked up and saved. It was an increduble amount of rejects to something that I had not done? I went looking towards why? Remembering that it was denied access to my Computer.

Other peers notified me that something was not right, but I noticed that Addresses concerned involved my Outlook Express from many years ago. They were sent to so many people that I had only commucateted with through Outlook Express.

If you go online with Hotmail, look to the left and see Contacts? When I eventually clicked on that I had over 200 Contacts, not the usual 50/60 I thought. Even now, after deleting the ones that did not belong. With just 52 Contacts, Micro$oft can not still get it right. their figures do not match up to what is displayed in those Contacts.

Love to take this further.

I have copies of all those Rejected Adresses from Postmaster. They clearly show it. BTW? I was not using my Computer that I was during those years ago, so really know that my Outlook Express list was harvested by Windows Live Messenger and Windows Messenger. I no longer allow them on my Computers, just use Firefox and Thunderbird as default, same as any Machines I work on. I NEVER set up an Instant Messenger anymore on them, just recomend they use online to access them.

Ray.

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“In its rush to take on Facebook and Google Buzz, Microsoft is now collecting and displaying personal information on your Hotmail page — information you may never have wanted to broadcast.”

Get your facts straight! Where have you been? Windows Live has been working this way for years. This version is called Wave 3 and has operated this way for about a year and a half. The only one “rushing” is Google with Buzz. It’s was about the only big player without a social network. The fact the Windows Live gives you all those security options gives you more granular control over how you share things. And those that are on your network are there because you added them. Either you added them in Windows Live Messenger or directly to an invite that you or they initiated. Windows Live does not share things with “Everyone” by default as Facebook will do unless told not to with their new “simplified” security.

Anyway, wave 4 for Windows Live will be out soon, and it will be more prominent to basic Hotmail users as it will incorporate the new Office Web apps and updates will appear even more visibly in the Hotmail web app. Files you make with these apps can be emailed or stored online in your FREE 25 gig Windows Live SkyDrive. And when you save a file there, guess what? It’s going to announce it to your network – unless you don’t want to share it. Then it won’t. Anyway, my opinion is that you’ve gone off half-cocked on something you seemingly admit that you don’t know much about. I’ve been using this service for a long time. I have a blog on there, and my best readers are those people ON MY NETWORK. This is a great service, and they aren’t rushing to do anything. Get your fact straight, and get over it!

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Get your facts straight! Where have you been? Windows Live has been working this way for years. This version is called Wave 3 and has operated this way for about a year and a half… This is a great service, and they aren’t rushing to do anything. Get your fact straight, and get over it!

Sorry, I don’t understand: what fact didn’t I get straight?

Windows Live has, no doubt, been working this way for years. Yes, I know it’s Wave 3 (what most of us would call “version 3”). I also know that Wave 4 is coming RSN. I don’t have any problem with Live Spaces spreading the social networking shtick.

What I’d never encountered before was the blatant scraping, and inaccurate mashing, of data being doled out to people when they log on to Hotmail. I don’t know when that change happened, and I would be grateful if you could fill me in.

As far as it being a great service… well, OK, different strokes for different folks, I guess. But it’d sure be nice if Microsoft would ask me before they started splashing inaccurate information about me on other peoples’ Hotmail logon pages.

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Sorry, I don’t understand: what fact didn’t I get straight?

Windows Live has, no doubt, been working this way for years. Yes, I know it’s Wave 3 (what most of us would call “version 3”). I also know that Wave 4 is coming RSN. I don’t have any problem with Live Spaces spreading the social networking shtick.

What I’d never encountered before was the blatant scraping, and inaccurate mashing, of data being doled out to people when they log on to Hotmail. I don’t know when that change happened, and I would be grateful if you could fill me in.

As far as it being a great service… well, OK, different strokes for different folks, I guess. But it’d sure be nice if Microsoft would ask me before they started splashing inaccurate information about me on other peoples’ Hotmail logon pages.

I think sometime “special” must have happened in your case. Could it have been possible those pictures were form another named “Woody”? Maybe MS messed up. Wouldn’t be the first time, I bet, but same for other online companies.

Nothing has ever happened bad to me like that.

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Sorry, I don’t understand: what fact didn’t I get straight?

Windows Live has, no doubt, been working this way for years. Yes, I know it’s Wave 3 (what most of us would call “version 3”). I also know that Wave 4 is coming RSN. I don’t have any problem with Live Spaces spreading the social networking shtick.

What I’d never encountered before was the blatant scraping, and inaccurate mashing, of data being doled out to people when they log on to Hotmail. I don’t know when that change happened, and I would be grateful if you could fill me in.

As far as it being a great service… well, OK, different strokes for different folks, I guess. But it’d sure be nice if Microsoft would ask me before they started splashing inaccurate information about me on other peoples’ Hotmail logon pages.

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”In its rush to take on Facebook and Google Buzz, Microsoft is now collecting and displaying personal information on your Hotmail page — information you may never have wanted to broadcast.”

Get your facts straight! Where have you been? Windows Live has been working this way for years. This version is called Wave 3 and has operated this way for about a year and a half. The only one “rushing” is Google with Buzz. It’s was about the only big player without a social network. The fact the Windows Live gives you all those security options gives you more granular control over how you share things. And those that are on your network are there because you added them. Either you added them in Windows Live Messenger or directly to an invite that you or they initiated. Windows Live does not share things with “Everyone” by default as Facebook will do unless told not to with their new “simplified” security.

Anyway, wave 4 for Windows Live will be out soon, and it will be more prominent to basic Hotmail users as it will incorporate the new Office Web apps and updates will appear even more visibly in the Hotmail web app. Files you make with these apps can be emailed or stored online in your FREE 25 gig Windows Live SkyDrive. And when you save a file there, guess what? It’s going to announce it to your network – unless you don’t want to share it. Then it won’t. Anyway, my opinion is that you’ve gone off half-cocked on something you seemingly admit that you don’t know much about. I’ve been using this service for a long time. I have a blog on there, and my best readers are those people ON MY NETWORK. This is a great service, and they aren’t rushing to do anything. Get your fact straight, and get over it!

Just what I was thinking. I have been using WL for a while now. All the What’s New info is from my network, that I set up myself. I suppose others can see what is new with me, but I can delete info I don’t like.

Google has Buzz and all their other jabber, I think Yahoo! has some network, there is Facebook (I don’t use it much), and MS has something too.

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” Windows Live does not share things with “Everyone” by default as Facebook will do unless told not to with their new “simplified” security.

Get your fact straight, and get over it!

With all due respect maybe you should get your facts straight. I have an old hotmail email account that I no longer use. After reading Woody’s article I logged into that account. (5 minutes ago) I went to the Permissions page and several of the sections had “Everyone” chosen by default. And that’s my two cents.

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Hi woody, nice article. I have just read through this link, http://privacy.microsoft.com/en-gb/fullnotice.mspx#collection , and your comments make a mockery of it. Keep up the good work. Pete.

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Woody, what a breath of fresh air you are. Thanks so much for an excellent article. Rick

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This article made my paid WS subscription worth its weight in gold. I am appalled that my Hotmail & MSN accounts were default set to share that much information. I might have gotten some notice in microprint EULA language about this, but nothing from MS in plain english that let me know what I was sharing with the world. OMG!

Thanks,
W

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Excellent information. I was also shocked (not really, after all, this is Microsoft) to discover that my ISP, Bell Canada (aka Sympatico), who outsourced their mail function to Microsoft in 2005, have automatically created the same Windows Live web page and social networking function with my Sympatico name and e-mail address. User beware! if your ISP has outsourced their e-mail to Microsoft, then you have a Windows Live profile that is public.

I ran through all the permission (yes, there are a huge number) and shut them down. I will also do that for family members. My family and I do not want to be a part of social networking after some negative and quite scary experiences. Microsoft needs to add a global “bail out” button for this useless function.

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I use IM (occasionally) but not Hotmail.
Is there a chance that any of my info will show up on other users’ hotmail login screens without me knowing?

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Yahoo Mail is doing this too. Your article spurred me to finally go and turn off these updates.

If you have Yahoo Mail and want to prevent people from seeing this kind of information, open Yahoo Mail, then click “Options” followed by “More Options.”

At that point, you can either unmark the “Enable Updates” checkbox and click Save Changes, or click the “Manage who sees my Updates” link and disable updates one at a time.

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Woody,

To thank you for exposing what many of us in the IT Security field have said for several years, social networking will be the destructive force to bring down the internet.

You have requested more information at the end of your post.
Here is a safe link to the Windows Blog propoganda : http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/windowslive/archive/2010/04/02/privacy-is-not-dead.aspx

Should you wish to end the agony of your personal data being exposed as many are after making the many permissions adjustments you may wish to read carefully this method to close out your WL account.

See Below Text
For security reasons, only Windows Live Hotmail account owners can close their own accounts.

Follow these steps to close your account:

1. Visit http://mail.live.com/mail/CloseAccountConfirmation.aspx

2. Sign in using your Windows Live Hotmail account and password.

3. Click “Close account” button.

This will only close the e-mail service, the Windows Live ID that is associated with your account will remain active and will be deleted after 365 days of inactivity. If you would like to access any of our Windows Live ID services, please use a different account.

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I know all these sites have their issues, but it does seem that Hotmail is the most problematic. The simplest solution – don’t use it. That will make an impression on Microsoft faster than anything else.

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I know all these sites have their issues, but it does seem that Hotmail is the most problematic. The simplest solution – don’t use it. That will make an impression on Microsoft faster than anything else.

I agree. I stopped using Microsoft Live Spaces right after it came out. And I really should not have to go through all the options to turn things OFF that I never turned on in the first place. I am a MS partner through my business, but this does not give them the right to use and share my information.

I use Google for email, photos, buzz, wave, etc. and only the people I pick can see my information, and only the information that I want them to see. I did not have to go into the settings and uncheck things that Google thought should be there … I had to check what I wanted to be there. Comparing the two companies is ridiculous.

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This has been going on for a long time. I remember warning my Messenger friends that they needed to take a look at the setting pages if they didn’t want their information and mine found in strange places. I sent them the following IM in May of 2009:
“ You can change the settings by clicking on the wrench icon to the right of What’s New on your WL Messenger main window. Be sure to look for the link at the end of the first batch of what you want to see from others. It will allow you to select what you want to share. You will be surprised what the defaults have you sharing with others! ”
This was partly in self defense because, at that time, I wasn’t sure that I was going to be able to control what of my information was going to show up on theirs and get broadcast to the world. I do credit MS (and Google) with giving one control over all of this, but I agree that using the information in the first place, especially as the default, is outrageous to me and a lot of other people. It seems to have to do with the do-it-all app problem. I still like my apps to do what I intended when I installed them, not try to dry the dishes, too. As someone pointed out, they (Yahoo, FB, Google, WL) are all doing it and one has to be really vigilant about finding and unchecking boxes everywhere one goes these days. Kinda sad.

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Woody, I’ve been an avid reader of your newsletters for the last 10 years, and I frequently visit your Windows and Office-related websites for tips and tricks. So, suffice it to say I’m a fan of your work and opinions. However, I’m also a fan of the Windows Live services, of which Hotmail has been a component for the last few years. In fact, I use Hotmail as my primary personal email account, and I think it provides excellent and reliable service. I use as many of the tools as I can, including Spaces, Groups, Contacts, Calendar, SkyDrive, and the Home/Profile pages, most of which feed into a centralized activity stream called the “What’s New” feed. That seems to be the part of the equation that’s causing you concern.

I’d have to agree with Jeffrey and Jeremy that it’s not anything new. In fact, the What’s New feed has been around for well over a year now, and it’s the foundation of Windows Live social networking. I also see your point that many (most?) Hotmail users may not realize that their e-mail service is part of a larger community of services that include social networking. At least with a service like Facebook, you know going in that you’re using a social networking service. I’d also agree with you that the Windows Live permissions and settings are at times too cumbersome and granular. But it’s great that you can fine-tune your settings to control what others see, and how much of others’ updates you consume. The updates that you see on the Hotmail Today/Home page are limited to your network, so if you’re seeing updates from strangers, then it’s probably more of an issue with who you’ve allowed to join your Windows Live network.

Here’s my problem with your article: it’s a tad sensationalist and admittedly unresearched. You say a couple of times that you don’t know or understand how it works, and you seem to base a lot of your conclusions on observation and assumptions, which is not good journalism. In my experience, I can tell you that accidental oversharing of updates is far from the epidemic that you’ve painted it to be. Take a stroll around the Profile pages of your Windows Live network, or just try to find people at random using the people search on the Windows Live Home page. If anything, you’ll find a lot of empty-looking profiles with no names, no updates, or other shared information.

Social networking is nothing to be feared. In fact, it can really boost productivity by allowing us to connect with those we care about in some new and interesting ways. But like any technology, it does carry risks when it’s not used properly. A little common sense goes a long way. Mind who’s in your network, what you choose to share, and you’ll be just fine. Down the road, social networks are going to be the preferred tools to share what’s important to you with those around you in a meaningful way, as you naturally use the web. Sending email blasts to get people’s attention is (pardon the expression) “so five minutes ago.”

Anyway, keep up the good work and I’ll keep reading. Thanks!

PS: Know how I was initially notified about this article? It wasn’t via your email newsletter. Jeffrey happens to be in my Windows Live network, and I saw he’d commented on your profile about the article. Social networking FTW!

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I must weigh in as well. I went through every permission setting to view what perms were defaulted. I was surprised that I was giving permission for MS to show *anything* at all. Good customer service would publish a service, default all options to “off”, inform it’s base of it’s existence and provide instructions on how to enable it. Well, I’m a Capitalist so since it’s a free service I’m going to cut MS some slack. If I were to pay for it I would follow that security wonk’s advice and close the account right quick. I for one appreciate the granular security, but despise the automatic “opt in” and the manual “opt out”. I’m a busy person, I can’t remaintain every site I’ve registered on and get anything done. Thank you Woody.

P.S. I understand that some of the things that were said just plain need to be said. I’m really holding back from joking about the heat in Phoenix!

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Woody says: “Given the murkiness of this new social networking scheme, I’d just as soon opt out — if I could only figure out how”.

I’m surprised … simply CLOSE your account. Close Hotmail, Close all Windows ‘Live’ anything.

If enough people go away, Mickey loses ad revenue and may re-think its policies of divulging information without your express wishes.

FWIW, I don’t have any, but I have put a blocker on my server that now rejects -=all=- emails from Hotmail with a note explaining MS’s current policy of disclosing my reply in a ‘public’ area as the reason.

Sorry for those of you who might wish to contact me about my Railroad and Philatelic research information and on line tools!

Just find another email provider!

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FWIW, I don’t have any, but I have put a blocker on my server that now rejects -=all=- emails from Hotmail with a note explaining MS’s current policy of disclosing my reply in a ‘public’ area as the reason.

I’m sorry, but how does Hotmail disclose your email replies in a public area in any shape or form? And why is “public” in quotes? Is it not really public? I think you may have misunderstood the nature of the What’s New feed, which is easy to do based on this obviously biased article. For the record, Hotmail does not share your e-mail traffic with anyone, period. The items that appear on the What’s New feed only include items that you have chosen to share in a public context (i.e., posted on a public blog or profile, placed in a public folder on SkyDrive, etc.). I’ll give you that the permissions are a bit cumbersome, but don’t cripple a service just because uninformed, casual end-users can’t be bothered to understand their options. This mob mentality really needs to be kept in check.

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I think you may have misunderstood the nature of the What’s New feed, which is easy to do based on this obviously biased article. For the record, Hotmail does not share your e-mail traffic with anyone, period. The items that appear on the What’s New feed only include items that you have chosen to share in a public context (i.e., posted on a public blog or profile, placed in a public folder on SkyDrive, etc.). I’ll give you that the permissions are a bit cumbersome, but don’t cripple a service just because uninformed, casual end-users can’t be bothered to understand their options. This mob mentality really needs to be kept in check.

Greg –

What you say is absolutely correct. (Okay, I take exception to the “obviously biased” jab, but factually you’re quite right.)

Still, I don’t agree. There are two underlying problems. First, the information that’s shared has been massaged, and in some cases it’s massaged incorrectly – thus the link to a lady I’ve never even heard of, as described in the article. Second, I was never made aware of the possibility that stuff I wrote in a specific, limited context could suddenly appear on the Hotmail login page of someone I briefly IMd six months previously.

I’m not a casual end-user. I didn’t understand the options because they were never presented to me. I still don’t understand the options because Microsoft won’t explain how it gets the contacts list, or where and how it mashes the displayed information. And never, in my wildest dreams, would I have thought that MS would harvest my posts in a very narrowly defined context and broadcast them to everybody and his brother.

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Greg –

What you say is absolutely correct. (Okay, I take exception to the “obviously biased” jab, but factually you’re quite right.)

Still, I don’t agree. There are two underlying problems. First, the information that’s shared has been massaged, and in some cases it’s massaged incorrectly – thus the link to a lady I’ve never even heard of, as described in the article. Second, I was never made aware of the possibility that stuff I wrote in a specific, limited context could suddenly appear on the Hotmail login page of someone I briefly IMd six months previously.

I’m not a casual end-user. I didn’t understand the options because they were never presented to me. I still don’t understand the options because Microsoft won’t explain how it gets the contacts list, or where and how it mashes the displayed information. And never, in my wildest dreams, would I have thought that MS would harvest my posts in a very narrowly defined context and broadcast them to everybody and his brother.

Woody,

Thanks for your personal reply. Sorry about the “obviously biased” jab. As I said, I’m a big fan of yours but also of Windows Live (a Windows Live MVP, actually), so I sort of took it personally that you were calling my baby ugly. With a few days to cool off, I have some much needed perspective. I’m still not quite sure what you mean by “massaged;” information shared through WL social avenues is simply consolidated into a feed that does what its name entails, it shows you what’s new with your network. I looked again at your screen shot, and here’s my armchair analysis:

First, that’s a shot of your What’s New with Your Network feed shown on the Hotmail Today page (also on the WL Home page at http://www.live.com ). It represents what others in your network are sharing with you, not what you’re sharing with anyone else. You’re being allowed to see it because they chose to share it with people in their network, and that includes you. Furthermore, Kriss, M…@hotmail.de, and woody leonard (an alternate profile of yours, I presume) are all members of your network. That’s more than just a casual contact in your Hotmail address book, BTW. These are folks who’ve been actively invited into or asked to join your WL network. To my knowledge, there’s no option to automatically accept network invites. Inviting someone to chat via Messenger does not necessarily add them to your WL network either, unless you click the wrong option when accepting the chat request. In fairness, perhaps Microsoft should be a little more obvious about what adding someone to your WL Network actually means. I suppose they could have a prompt that says “are you sure?”, then another that says “are you really sure?”, and a final prompt that says “did you ask your mom first?”

Finally regarding the comment that you left on Kim’s PDF file (BTW, you’re seeing your own comments because you have two WL profiles that are in each other’s network, which can be quite confusing), please realize that this is a public comment left on a (presumably) public SkyDrive file, much like a comment on someone’s blog. If it is indeed a publicly shared file and I had the page’s URL, then I could see that comment right now on the SkyDrive page, along with all the other comments left by individuals regardless of network affiliation. All the What’s New feed is doing is aggregating updates that others have chosen to share with you, based on your relationship with them and your choice to consume those types of updates.

You say the options were never presented to you. Hmm. Well, I’m pretty sure I received several e-mail notices from Microsoft about the changes, and the first time I logged into WL, I received several pop-up notifications. There’s also a Help link on every page with a complete explanation of how it all works. You’re right that Microsoft has done a poor job of really selling its end-users on the value of WL as a complete service. Even we Microsoft junkies are frequently surprised by elements of the service we don’t use regularly. If you trace the evolution of Windows Live, though, you’ll find it’s because the service was compiled from disparate projects, some more mature than others, without a real sense of direction or cohesion for much of the last 5 years. Rather than explaining what WL is all about, Microsoft has been content to allow its user base (many of whom were grandfathered in from Hotmail) to just cherry pick the parts of the service the were comfortable using, instead of rolling out a completely new service and asking folks to join all over again. Maybe you’re right that some kind of global “kill switch” would be a good idea, but I’d rather people get to know what’s available via Windows Live before they decide to fight some social windmill in their minds.

I take exception with the commenters who want to discount the notion of social networking as some kind of herald of the apocalypse or a waste of time. Twenty years ago, I’m sure their types said the same things about e-mail and the World Wide Web. As we’ve since learned, it’s all about how you use it. I rather like the idea of the multiple integration points, many of which are social, to engage my network more deeply. Rather than pushing a bunch of links and info on people via email like a spammer, I like the ability to share something interesting on my blog or SkyDrive and have others notified via RSS, WL alerts, or yes, their own What’s New with my Network feed…however they choose to consume my content. I like to be able to consolidate things I’m doing all over the Interwebs, from Twitter, to Facebook, to YouTube, to Flickr, to Yelp!, into one convenient feed that my friends (i.e., the people I actively invited into my network) can see in one big stream.

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Woody says: “Given the murkiness of this new social networking scheme, I’d just as soon opt out — if I could only figure out how”.

I’m surprised … simply CLOSE your account. Close Hotmail, Close all Windows ‘Live’ anything.

Would that it were so simple! I can close my Hotmail account (excellent details posted above), but even after it’s closed, the ID remains live for at least a year. That means other people who sign on to Hotmail may see inaccurate mash-ups or potentially embarrassing information about me for a year, or longer.

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The real irony of the Microsoft UserID/Password situation is their requirement for such an account to access support Web sites. Obviously, the vast majority of IT Pros with such credentials had no intention of their information every being made available to anybody. I created my account years before the time-wasting concept of “social networking” was concocted. BTW, does anybody else find it ironic that “social networking” actually occurs in isolation?

Anyway, our company uses a Web filter system as part of network protection. For me to wade through the multitude of “permissions” links to opt out, I had to enable exception rules for the following URLs:

https://auth.bay.livefilestore.com/storageservice/passport/
https://auth.blu.livefilestore.com/storageservice/passport/
http://skydrive.live.com/
http://207.46.120.171
https://207.46.120.171
http://207.46.120.234
https://207.46.120.234
http://207.46.120.235
https://207.46.120.235
http://65.55.194.250
https://65.55.194.250
http://66.37.202.126
https://66.37.202.126

Believe me, this was also a time waster.

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First off, I think Woody is confusing Hotmail with Windows Live. When I go to hotmail.com, I see this and nothing else:

What Woody is describing as Hotmail is actually, I believe, the Windows Live homepage, where “What’s New with Your Network” appears.

Second, I think Woody is crying wolf over old news. AFAIK, Windows Live has always – provided the user leaves his profile settings open to “all” – harvested as much contact information as it can get its hands on. That’s the way of social networking. But, since I’m such an old fuddy-duddy about such things (and highly jealous of my privacy), I don’t do social networking. So, from the day I joined Windows Live (for the sole prupose of having a Hotmail account) I went into my profile and locked down my account (a royal pain, I agree, with those ridiculous numbers of privacy settings pages scattered around dozens of different places), denying access to “all” in every location and, furthermore, declining every invitation I have subsequently received on Windows Live from anyone I didn’t know, so that – even now – when I go to my Windows Live homepage, links like “What’s New with Your Network” or “People You Might Know” are completely blank (and always have been).

With a little due diligence, people can control their own privacy on the web, rather than expect big companies like Microsoft (who are trying to gear their sites to the habits of the greatest number of users, most of whom want to advertise themselves all over the stratosphere and collect the biggest number of “friends” they can get their hands on) to do it for them. Gearing Microsoft Live (or Facebook or any other such site) toward privacy freaks like us is no way for these companies to get ahead, businesswise.

--
PBear.SF

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First off, I think Woody is confusing Hotmail with Windows Live. When I go to hotmail.com, I see this and nothing else:

What Woody is describing as Hotmail is actually, I believe, the Windows Live homepage, where “What’s New with Your Network” appears.

…since I’m such an old fuddy-duddy about such things (and highly jealous of my privacy), I don’t do social networking. So, from the day I joined Windows Live (for the sole prupose of having a Hotmail account) I went into my profile and locked down my account …

PBear – I’d be willing to bet that the reason why you don’t see the same Hotmail page as (almost) everyone else is because you had the foresight and knowledge to turn off all of the privacy-busting settings. I started using Hotmail before Microsoft bought it out, and never imagined that it would come to this.

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AMEN, Woody. I did as you suggested and went online to hotmail page and opted out of all information sharing. It took me over half an hour to go thru all the steps. Lots of permissions were set to “everyone” and I didn’t even know that there was that Social Network Service offered by hotmail. Thank you for keeping us safe!!!!!!

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I wanted to reply to Fred’s article on John Arleth’s misspelling or keyboard problem. Had just one letter (K) come off my Acer laptop. Really messes up touch typing. They want me to send it to Texas for repair (sans computer for 2-3 weeks????). Other than the DOS boot suggestion to analyze the problem source I bought a USB keyboard for less than $20 and presto it worked with a simple plug in to any USB. Not easy to maintain my laptops portability but gave me instant use of the computer to save some files before sending it on vacation. Bob

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“I’m surprised … simply CLOSE your account. Close Hotmail, Close all Windows ‘Live’ anything.”

Interesting idea, but NOT possible (for me).

I am the System Administrator at my company, this means that I am in charge of all Licensing. In order to get our Microsoft Licensees (Volume, Open Value, etc.) I was required to create a Windows Live account (note: I do not have a HotMail account). This account is only used to access the Licensee information and communicate with Microsoft, a business function.

It took me over 20 minutes to uncheck everything (there are a lot of “hidden” menus). It really disturbs me that Microsoft took a required business to business account and put it on a social network (which is against our company policy).

Woody thank you for the information.

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It isn’t just Microsoft doing this. Recently, a friend signed up for a new Facebook page, and I got an invitation to join him. That didn’t bother me; what did bother me was that underneath that message was a notice from Facebook suggesting that here were five more people whose Facebook pages I might like to join!
These people have nothing to do with the person whose invitation I received. Two were Doctors (one of whom died 7 months earlier); one was a distant relative with whom I’d been communicating recently; one was a former friend; the fifth was a distant acquaintance, all of whose addresses were in MY email address book-not his. At my request, he emailed Facebook for an explanation. Their response was they obtain info from various sources, including his online address book as well as those of other members, with whom my email address had been cross-referenced!!!
I wrote a letter of outrage to the CEO of Facebook threatening a lawsuit for invasion of privacy because this was my ‘personal’ email address, not my ‘public’ one. Having read their Privacy page, once they harvest email addresses from you, they keep them forever; and there is NO WAY to have them removed… Closing his account does not delete anything from their files.
My friend canceled his Facebook account, but the damage had been done-PERMANENTLY.
Now, I may have to change my personal email address because of their policies unless public outcry forces them to permit email addresses to be removed from one’s profile.
Is anyone out there as angry about this as I am? If so, maybe we can create an atmosphere for change…

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It isn’t just Microsoft doing this. Recently, a friend signed up for a new Facebook page, and I got an invitation to join him. That didn’t bother me; what did bother me was that underneath that message was a notice from Facebook suggesting that here were five more people whose Facebook pages I might like to join!
These people have nothing to do with the person whose invitation I received. Two were Doctors (one of whom died 7 months earlier); one was a distant relative with whom I’d been communicating recently; one was a former friend; the fifth was a distant acquaintance, all of whose addresses were in MY email address book-not his. At my request, he emailed Facebook for an explanation. Their response was they obtain info from various sources, including his online address book as well as those of other members, with whom my email address had been cross-referenced!!!
I wrote a letter of outrage to the CEO of Facebook threatening a lawsuit for invasion of privacy because this was my ‘personal’ email address, not my ‘public’ one. Having read their Privacy page, once they harvest email addresses from you, they keep them forever; and there is NO WAY to have them removed… Closing his account does not delete anything from their files.
My friend canceled his Facebook account, but the damage had been done-PERMANENTLY.
Now, I may have to change my personal email address because of their policies unless public outcry forces them to permit email addresses to be removed from one’s profile.
Is anyone out there as angry about this as I am? If so, maybe we can create an atmosphere for change…

Follow the instructions here to remove the retained email addresses. This is something to get upset about!
http://www.facebook.com/contact_importer/remove_uploads.php

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Having read Woody’s article today about Microsoft spewing personal info. all over the web, I went to Preferences and unchecked many of the drop-down options that were making my stuff public. After rebooting I can no longer access my Hotmail account. Instead I get this:
“The Windows Live Network is unavailable from this site for one of the following reasons:
This site may be experiencing a problem
The site may not be a member of the Windows Live Network
You can:
You can sign in or sign up at other sites on the Windows Live Network, or try again later at this site.”

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can get back my Hotmail account?

Thank you,
Dick

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I have used hotmail for over ten years, never used WM at all. (I Also don’t bother with FaceBook or Twitter .)

All that was there when I went and signed in to my account (I did have to temporarily allow ‘wlxrs.com’ for scripts using Woody’s Link) was this:
__________________________________________________________
“Suggestions for your network

These are people in your contact list. If you add them to your network….”

Just four, These were:
YAHOO! GROUPS, exciteMail excite, Pratt&Whitney Canada and one individual’s name that I did not recognise.

It has been years since I had any contact with any of the above.

I do have many, many real people on my Contact List and was happy not to see any ot them.

Below the ‘Suggestions….” was an empty Box called “notes” and I was able to turn that off with one click, whatever that was.

Now, after Hotmail discontinued the Outlook, Outlook Express and Entourage Service in August ’09, I did install the “Windows Live Hotmail” Service and they imported All my Contacts (with my permission) to enable viewing other email accounts within WLH.

(Only) big problem there was where other email services can be set to leave downloaded emails on the server for a few days (I have several portable systems, not online all the time) WLH could not and would not ‘leave them on the server’;

thus another portable would no longer get the emails downloaded into WLH.

I should have been Ok if I had just limited WLH to my hotmail only, but I just don’t use WLH at all now.

Since I don’t need WLH, I am quite pleased with my hotmail service and have never had any other problem with it.
____________________________________________________________________________________

You want to talk about a Real Pain Free Email Service, try exciteMail, I would have to Scan (and remove a lot) with EVERY VISIT, only solution was to visit from inside a Sandbox and finally gave them up completely, several years ago. They required your Browser to be completely wide open for any sort of attack, or they would not allow you access to your account.

Art

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To me both Messenger and Hotmail are more trouble than they are worth so did the simplest thing….UNINSTALLED. If iIeed another e-mail client I’ll use gmail.

Art Cordingley

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This may be a little off the exact Topic, but I think it is Topical and shows the Dangers of having “Privacy” compromised like this Topic is all about.

$1 million uSocial.net internet tycoon is bored in Brisbane

* Alex Dickinson
* From: The Courier-Mail

Leon Hill

Internet tycoon uSocial.net founder Leon Hill has become a millionaire from his inner-city unit. Picture: Bruce Long Source: The Courier-Mail

AFTER beating legal threats from internet giants Twitter and Facebook, Brisbane’s latest Generation Y millionaire is making plans for early retirement.

Leon Hill, founder of uSocial.net, enraged the social networking sites last year after developing a service that sells Twitter followers and Facebook fans.

Business has skyrocketed in the past six months for the 25-year-old entrepreneur, who offers 1000 Facebook fans for $197 or up to 5000 fans for $727.

More than 1000 Twitter followers costs $87.

Facebook and Twitter hired lawyers to aggressively pursue uSocial.net but have recently ceased all action because, according to its founder, he was “doing nothing illegal”. Now “semi-retired”, Mr Hill, who left school at 16, is living the dream.

After raking in more than $500,000 already this year, and with $1 million worth of business assets, he says his only worry is boredom.

Link to it http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/million-usocialnet-internet-tycoon-is-bored-in-brisbane/story-e6freon6-1225858076946

It seems like “Users Beware?”

Ray.

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Beyond the personal privacy issues which you highlight, I have to consider the workplace privacy issues (and not just that someone’s non-work-safe info will pop up on a web page).

It seems that you are saying that if someone in a business were to IM someone else, that information could be blatantly posted for others to see. Think about a confidential client list.

Additionally, I work in an area that answers questions and the transactions are protected by law. Now if someone should IM me with a request for help, the world can know they are on my client list ?

Admittedly, I never thought IM was a safe form of communications. I usually found that questions posed by IM would quickly move to another medium. At the same time, I know many in my profession who have attempted to provide more detailed services by IM.

But now it looks like I should look for a way to disable IM from all computers in the organization.

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B Blansit –

The contents of the IM is NOT being broadcast. However, the fact that you have added a person to your IM buddy list can be broadcast. That fact can appear whenever someone currently on your buddy list logs on to check their Hotmail.

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Interesting discussion about Facebook’s privacy busting:

Schumer Urges FTC: Set Social Networking Guidelines

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-20003445-501465.html

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It was an interesting thing to see, Woody.

Ray

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It was an interesting thing to see, Woody. But to remove IM from a System is IMPOSSIBLE under Windows? It is Default, so Windows screwed up again? Just try to REMOVE Windows Messenger, and even Windows Explorer, and Outlook Express, they work Hand in Glove. When you have FireFox installed as Default and Thunderbird as Default Try it and see on a single Machine? You will be amazed? Now try it on a Network?

Once you Delete, Windows automaticatly Backs it up. On reboot. Even if you turn off System Restore? Go think about that?

Aw, Mic$oft, yet just another Giltch that you have to correct? This one could just Destroy You. Simply because ITs can not remove IM from their Systems, because it is not allowed, unless different Rules apply? Then Mic$oft has to answer towards why?

You really hit the Nerve, Mate.

Ray

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I was alittle concerned after reading the article, so I whent to my Hotmail [Windows Live Mail] account to see what was actually showing. I found that all of these settings were on by default, fortunately there was nothing there to show, as I don’t do social networking or IM.

I’ve had this account for the last 5 years and it’s been rock sold reliable with very little spam, considering how extensively I use it. It’s not a big deal to dig in and remove feature sets I want nothing to do with, but many of them should probably be off by default, for privacy sake.
And it would have been nice to know this before now. I guess I should log in more often.

All said, I haven’t noticed any changes.

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I am not sure how I got to the page… I was just trying to see and opt-out of all the categories and options and to eliminate (or, at minimum, severely limit) the info that was available under any circumstances. At any rate, I believe that this page will allow setting (“opting out”) of multiple categories/options. Hope this works and hope it helps others, too. URL: http://cid-c492d977db9896a4.profile.live.com/whatsnewwithyousettings/?ru=http%3a%2f%2fcid-c492d977db9896a4.profile.live.com%2f

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Greg –

In fact, the “What’s New with Your Network” screenshot is from my wife’s Hotmail logon. As you say, it’s also on her Windows Live login page.

> These are folks who’ve been actively invited into or asked to join your WL network.

See, that’s my problem. They’re not folks who have been invited to join her WL network. She doesn’t have a WL network – never used Windows Live, doesn’t have a Windows Live Spaces account. These people are selected from Windows Messenger buddies. At no point did my wife or her buddies say “Dear Microsoft, you may collect information about me and display it on my buddy’s Hotmail login page.”

>Inviting someone to chat via Messenger does not necessarily add them to your WL network either, unless you click the wrong option when accepting the chat request

Not true. If you have a copy of my Windows 7 All-In-One For Dummies book handy, there are screen shots of exactly what you agree to when you ask someone to become your Messenger buddy, and what your buddy agrees to, should they accept. (See Figure 7-8 on page 577.) Although both screens say, “Messenger contacts are part of your network on Windows Live,” there’s absolutely no indication of what that entails. Certainly, neither of the screens say anything like, “Dear Microsoft, you may collect information about me and display it on my buddy’s Hotmail login page.”

>this is a public comment left on a (presumably) public SkyDrive file, much like a comment on someone’s blog

Once again, not true. I don’t doubt that I left that comment somewhere – but I can’t find it, using any search engine, so I don’t know where it came from. I’ve never accessed a SkyDrive file. Never posted anything on anyone’s personal blog (although I have posted on Microsoft blogs, even as an MVP). I don’t know who Kim is, and I only have a guess as to what PDF file is being referred to. In short, Microsoft mined this information from somewhere, mashed it so it isn’t factually correct, and then dished it up on my wife’s Hotmail login page.

>Well, I’m pretty sure I received several e-mail notices from Microsoft about the changes, and the first time I logged into WL, I received several pop-up notifications.

I don’t doubt that for a second, but my wife has never logged on to Windows Live. She’s used Windows Messenger briefly. She logs into Hotmail. And that’s it.

I’ve corresponded with Microsoft’s reps, and they inform me that the Hotmail login screen was changed in February 2009, after which time the login sequence shows the What’s New with Your Network pane. That may well be true, although PBear (see earlier post in this thread) says he still doesn’t see the WNWYN pane. I never noticed it – I log in to Hotmail infrequently, and changes to the screen don’t register. The only way this came to my attention was when my wife came into my office and said, “Who’s Kim?”

What Microsoft’s doing is unconscionable. Facebook is drawing fire today from several Senators. Google got hit hard with its changes to Buzz. Microsoft, in my opinion, is doing something equally objectionable – although admittedly different.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with social networking, as long as everybody understands the ground rules. Signing up to be a Windows Messenger Buddy means that you know the other person’s id, and you can see their picture and whatever else they may willingly broadcast. Fine. That’s part and parcel of messaging. But becoming a Buddy doesn’t mean that Microsoft should be able to mash up inaccurate information about you and serve it to your Buddy six months later, as part of their Hotmail login.

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They’re not folks who have been invited to join her WL network. She doesn’t have a WL network – never used Windows Live, doesn’t have a Windows Live Spaces account. These people are selected from Windows Messenger buddies. At no point did my wife or her buddies say “Dear Microsoft, you may collect information about me and display it on my buddy’s Hotmail login page.”

To be fair, everyone who has a Live ID has a WL network. Your Messenger “buddies” (kind of a dated term, but alright), WL network, and Hotmail contacts are collectively part of your WL People service. There’s a nice post on LiveSide that summarizes how it all works in Wave 3. Granted, it’s convoluted, but don’t get too comfortable with that layout. Scuttlebutt is that is expected to be simplified in Wave 4.

If you have a copy of my Windows 7 All-In-One For Dummies book handy, there are screen shots of exactly what you agree to when you ask someone to become your Messenger buddy, and what your buddy agrees to, should they accept. (See Figure 7-8 on page 577.) Although both screens say, “Messenger contacts are part of your network on Windows Live,” there’s absolutely no indication of what that entails. Certainly, neither of the screens say anything like, “Dear Microsoft, you may collect information about me and display it on my buddy’s Hotmail login page.”

I don’t actually have a copy, and the Messenger client is not available to me at work. Might you be gracious enough to send me a freebie? I’ll take an e-book, I’m not picky. Either way, I’ll check this out in WL Messenger when I get home this evening. Standby for additional opinionated response…

I don’t doubt that I left that comment somewhere – but I can’t find it, using any search engine, so I don’t know where it came from. I’ve never accessed a SkyDrive file. Never posted anything on anyone’s personal blog (although I have posted on Microsoft blogs, even as an MVP). I don’t know who Kim is, and I only have a guess as to what PDF file is being referred to. In short, Microsoft mined this information from somewhere, mashed it so it isn’t factually correct, and then dished it up on my wife’s Hotmail login page.

Gotta call bull on that one, Woody. Not to drag “Kim” into this, but she’s Kim Spilker, the marketing manager for Microsoft Press. You commented on a PDF draft of the First Look Microsoft Office 2010 eBook she had shared on her public SkyDrive. I can say that because it’s still up there. In fairness, it appears she actually deleted the document dated 12/11 on which you commented and shared another copy of it on 12/15. Though the document has the same filename, the SkyDrive URL is different. The newer version of the document is still out there and has pages of comments. Your comment was likely deleted along with the original document. The funny thing about WL updates is that they occasionally hang around in your “What’s New” feed, even if the underlying comment has been deleted (that’s occasionally gotten me in trouble during “spirited disagreements” with my network mates that I’ve later tried to retract). Still, the fact remains that you made the comment on a public SkyDrive file on 12/11, WL pulled the update into your public feed, and your wife’s What’s New with My Network feed consumed it from there.

Your article implies that WL goes around willy-nilly fabricating updates on comments that never existed, but this is hardly an inaccurate mashup of information. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that it’s information you didn’t intend for others in your network to see, which puts the onus on you to configure your permissions properly so that kind of information isn’t shared.

I’ve corresponded with Microsoft’s reps, and they inform me that the Hotmail login screen was changed in February 2009, after which time the login sequence shows the What’s New with Your Network pane. That may well be true, although PBear (see earlier post in this thread) says he still doesn’t see the WNWYN pane. I never noticed it – I log in to Hotmail infrequently, and changes to the screen don’t register. The only way this came to my attention was when my wife came into my office and said, “Who’s Kim?”

LOL, I’ve had similar conversations with my wife. She was curious about Windows Live for like a nano-second, after which she found Facebook and was lost to the dark side forever. Her Space has (had?) a whopping 1 blog post before she abandoned it. She now calls my obsession with WL “my little geek network.” Still she occasionally inquires about exactly who are these people she’s never heard of. It’s true that WL hasn’t (yet) matured into the kind of grass-roots social network that Facebook has. Most of my network mates on WL are other MVPs and WL enthusiasts. Very few of my meatbag (Jeffrey’s term) friends and family actually use WL.

To answer PBear’s question, Hotmail’s Today page can be disabled by clicking Options > More Options > Today Page Settings, and clicking Skip the Today page and take me straight to my inbox. I don’t typically show the Today page, because I use the WL Home page as my entry point for all things Live, and as you noted, it has it’s own version of the What’s New with Your Network feed.

I think if there’s a pearl of agreement in this discussion, it’s that Microsoft needs to be more transparent about the connections between their services, and they need to simplify their permissions customization UI.

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Greg –

Opinionated responses most welcome.

I’ve attached a copy of Figure 7-8 from page 577 of Windows 7 All-In-One For Dummies. As you can see, all it says is “Messenger contacts are part of your network on Windows Live.” It doesn’t say anything about having your information broadcast on your buddy’s Hotmail login page.

The PDF file in question was apparently originally posted to http://cid-d7229b252a0ad6f2.skydrive.live.com (as you note, the file isn’t there any more). It appears from the URL that’s a personal SkyDrive folder.

So we can agree on a few things. But our one big point of disagreement is embodied in this statement:

> [It] puts the onus on you to configure your permissions properly so that kind of information isn’t shared

I disagree with that statement. For obvious reasons, I think, the onus is on Microsoft to clearly identify what information will be shared, and to give us the tools – actually, the defaults – to make sure that potentially embarrassing information isn’t shared.

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Interesting news on this front this morning, courtesy of LiveSide.net: Windows Live Profile Wave 4 to come with enhanced privacy controls

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Greg –

It’s a welcome improvement, but it doesn’t address the primary issue: Microsoft should not automatically convert Messenger Buddies into Live Contacts. MS can prompt, can beg, can cajole, can bribe me into turning Buddies into Live contacts – just as they now try to get me to convert my Hotmail contacts into Live contacts – but subverting the Buddies list wholesale, without my permission and without my Buddies’ permission, ain’t kosher.

(Pardon for using the archaic term “Buddies” but it’s the only one I can think of that fits. MS has used the term “Contacts” in a zillion different ways. What I’m referring to are the people – actually the id’s – that have communicated with me via one of the myriad MS Messenger products, which is to say, the id’s in my Messenger Buddies list.)

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Re “Centronics parallel interfaces in a USB world” in recent Win Secrets letter:

My solution is to network my (old) machine running XP Pro to my new one running Win 7 Ultimate. You don’t need a monitor on the old machine but need XP pro on the old one and Win 7 Ultimate on the new. Type “run” mstsc and you can “see” the old computer on your new screen. With the old printer att’d to the old computer with centronics parallel port connexion I can print through the network on my old HP IIP Laserjet printer which is still in perfect working order (around 20 years old!!)

Have fun!

Allan Taylor (tayloga@sympatico,ca)

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Woody, There are times when quality national journalism such as yours overshadows all the blogging and feedback ever created and put into print!

Having read with interest and followed this thread from the start, please know I agree with you completely concerning the Windows Live Suite of services and the social networking aspect. The average consumer user would not be aware of the complexities. From beta days until today, over three years now it has been a test case. Adding, modifying, exposing various forms of data. It continues as we speak to a degree, however your publicity may have influenced some of the changes implemented recently.

Please be aware Microsoft has chosen to modify the settings factor for the sevices. The link I will provide you to a blog post by my friend,Technogran, explains well the function of the above mentioned settings that were just released. Link: http://windowslive.com/Connect/Post/0c29605b-8fed-4b7f-9a9d-3cabcd6aa470 This information supplements all the guidance Greg has so patiently shared. Sorry to cut this short but must run and remove my home phone number from my profile page.

Read with interest and pat yourself and Brian on the back for your part in bringing about the changes.

Edited to add this from Network World:
Seethis!

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It’s my impression that the specific problem lies not in what the system shares with friends, but with how the system defines those “friends” in the first place. They may very well have improved security handling with referance to the former, leaving the real problem unresolved. And, in part, this problem would seem to be naturally inherant in the very purpose of “social networking”, which is all about connecting one contact with another, until we are all six degrees of seperation (or whatever) from every other registered user – whether they are a friend, lover, relative, acquantance, axe-murderer, or martian.

There are two obvious solutions: fix the over-lax criteria that the system uses to determine whether or not a contact is a friend (from a universal ‘yes’ to something more restrictive) or change the name of ‘friends’ to something less directly threatening to privacy – the “knows somebody who knows” list, for example. The latter would be relatively quick and easy and would mean that the software would continue to grow the social network at breakneck speed – so that is what I forecast will be done, if anything.

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Can all this also be connected to the Tracking cookie.Atdmt which M$ seem to have inflicted us with?

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