Here’s how Windows cumulative updating does – and will – work

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Win7/8.1 customers take note. InfoWorld Woody on Windows UPDATE: Fixed the link. Sorry about that.
[See the full post at: Here’s how Windows cumulative updating does – and will – work]

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Privet zapadnyye tovarishchi!
My vzyali na sebya Microsoft, i prineset dekadentskiy zapadnyy mir na koleni.
Boris i Vladimir.

What other explanation could there be?
[Try Google translate]

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I just read the InfoWorld article. My initial reaction is simply that there’s nothing new here. Notwithstanding the details, the described scenario was painfully familiar —

1. Microsoft screws up.
2. Microsoft ignores the problem or denies its existence.
3. The wait for remediation begins.
4. Eventually Microsoft takes responsibility.
5. More waiting for the fix.
6. Communication with customers is kept to the bare minimum.
7. Eventually a fix is issued. Maybe there is guidance about what to do, maybe there isn’t. Maybe it will work, maybe not. Install at your own risk.

Ugh. The only thing that has changed with Microsoft’s cumulative update implementation is that the turd deposited on a customer’s computer is much larger than in the past.

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!

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On the surface, this is a scary change of events, but in reality, it doesn’t change much – group B (and moreso group W) is still going to delay updating, same as always, while group A are the guinea pigs that MS will have to deal with if and when something breaks.

I don’t think any sane person in this day and age updates a Windows machine on day 1 if they don’t have to. Ah, I miss the old days where there was trust there.

Do they even test updates and patches anymore? I know Nadella canned that division wholesale with the advent of the Insider program, but it begs to question whether or not they’re testing any patches internally for 7 & 8/8.1 or not. I’d assume “not”. Why waste resources on your old OS when you don’t even have a team left who tests your ‘latest and greatest’.

Even more reason to not install anything from this company for several weeks.

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Hello Western comrades!
We took the Microsoft and bring decadent Western world to its knees

courtesy of Google Translate (although it isn’t actually written in Russian)

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Most assuredly, my version of Group A will NOT install updates as soon as they’re available.

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Well, as far as Microsoft Windows Update patches go..
‘the second mouse always gets the cheese.’

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So much for the un-fragmentation rationalization of the new update policy.

I am sorry to say it but users that acquiesce by obediently dedicate themselves to figuring out how to apply the updates deserve what they get.

Consider what would happen if masses of users stopped the WU service…

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+1

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It is good to clarify this as much as possible, as I think there is a perception that Group A users would use a method similar with those setting AU to on.

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Like Alice said in the Looking Glass; things are getting curiouser and curioser. MS justifies moving W7/8.1 updates to a cumulative updating protocol because it wants to reduce patching fragmentation. The it bifurcates security and non-security patches so that users can divide into so-called Group A or B. Does not the possibility of creating a Group B population inveigh against the updating rationale MS put forth. Every month, some spokesperson for MS posts some new policy on a blog post and the world is supposed to turn on a dime. I can recall graduate school research projects being handled with greater care and planning than the nonsense from Redmond these days. Please explain the errors in my thought process so I don’t kill any more brain cells working these issues.

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Read the article… First it was the print bug, what next? At this point of M$’s track record, it’s only a matter of time till they release a patch that ‘accidentally’ bricks 7/8.1 os… I seriously wouldn’t put it past M$ to pull that crud, just look at their past GWX campaign, after that headache, I’m not surprised if people even in Group A are going to be on edge (not the browser) for a while.

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It is high time to clear your head and examine your reasons for wanting to continue updating your older systems.

– Are you concerned by all the “security” FUD?

– Are you experiencing OS bugs that really need fixing?

– Are you expecting Microsoft to release new features to benefit YOU?

FUD definition – “Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt”

Which of these better describes you?

1. OMG, if I don’t patch my system right when Microsoft says to do it I’m going to get infected! Aieeeee!

2. I know how things work, have a secure environment, practice intelligent computing, and I understand the risks of my computing habits.

Which one SHOULD describe you?

-Noel

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I don’t know where that perception would come from to be honest. Most who frequent here are unlikely to be running automatic updates, but many will nonetheless opt to hold fire on all updates for a while in exactly the same way that they do now.

Indeed, the combining of previously separate updates into a single one makes it all the more important they do so, even if they are in Group A.

In addition to the combined update there will of course continue to be a number of other individual updates each month covering such things as IE, .Net Framework, Office etc. so I don’t personally see any change in the way I will approach the monthly rigmarole in that I will continue to read what Woody and Susan Bradley have to say before considering installing any of them. Nothing would induce me to turn on automatic installation!

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Some of it is sheer arrogance that characterizes a monopolist driven to desperation by gradual loss of monopoly and overtaken by complexity coupled with incompetence (remember the descent of IBM?).

As long as the monopoly holds they can get away with it. When it goes they crack. What helps them now is an obedient customer base that feels captive.

Gates knew when to get out. Balmer started the descent and Nadella lost control.

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If people hold fire on the updates for the usual 2 or 3 weeks then it should become clear over that time whether there are any problematic updates that need to be avoided until they are either withdrawn or fixed.

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Let’s not forget that Microsoft programmers are the ones who built all the vulnerabilities into the system in the first place.

True or false:

A patch always contains perfect code, which will only make a system better.

When laid out in pixels of course that sounds ridiculous.

Yet EMOTIONALLY each and every one of us is conditioned to believe that we’re missing out on Good Things if we avoid riding on the Windows Update Bandwagon. Search your feelings; you’ll know it to be true.

Personally I find it helps to think of it as less of a Bandwagon and more of a roller coaster.

-Noel

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Group B is not justified for home users but is required for compliance requirements in some enterprises. This is why Microsoft makes the Group B style of patching only available in the Microsoft Update Catalog and WSUS which are enterprise management tools and not used regularly by anyone else, other than the most experienced power users.

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Here’s how my friends Windows 10 update will work: I gave up and installed 10 on his laptop way back because he doesn’t care or obey orders. Now..every once in a while his laptops fan starts screaming, its update time! that takes a day or two. I copied 5 movies for him on a usb stick, started to copy them over. we went to dinner and a sauna, 8 hours later the 6GB werent copied over. I tried to deactivate microsoft malware, no dice. you wanna copy files? you wait. when it was done I fired up microsoft VIDEOS! the files/movies played nice. the subtitles did not. I copied over Popplayer that worked like a chram on windows 7. windows 10 erased 70% of all potplayer files, as malware. by then i had enough, so had my friend. we turned off his crap windows 10, went to the bar and I promised i would install windows 7 on his laptop as soon as my hangover gives way. <I can honestly say windows 10 is the worst dysfunctional piece of crapware I have ever had the displeasure to use.

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Unless, of course, you’re measuring by stock price.

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@Noel,

“Yet EMOTIONALLY each and every one of us is conditioned to believe that we’re missing out on Good Things if we avoid riding on the Windows Update Bandwagon.
Search your feelings; you’ll know it to be true.”

Man oh man, I don’t feel that way! I never felt that way.

Maybe it’s because I’m not a computer-techie sort of person.

It must be a very different experience if this is your field of expertise, this is one of your main corporate partners, these are the products/services you are highly-trained to work with.

One can’t blindly trust any organization or person.

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It was interesting how sanguine Nathan Mercer was when someone asked him in his Q&A if the non-cumulative, security-only Rollup released on Patch Tuesdays would be available for individual/non-expert computer owners to get from the Update Catalog, and he simply said it would be, without adding any cautions of certain chaos and destruction/recommendations against people trying that.

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Noel,

AT this point I am convinced that the risk of MS destabilizing or even bricking a well-running Win7 system, is substantially greater than the risk taken by never again applying a Windows Update of any kind.

I am not even talking here of the probability that they will eventually turn these useful Win7 machines into Good Housekeeping magazines that watch and observe my every move.

Sounds scary, but that is what it boils down to.

I have advised my 150 client computers have the Windows Update service disabled. In a way that brought a sigh of relief!

My remaining concern is how in heavens name I will be able to re-build a system again?

CT

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Stock prices are volatile and can hide mor than reveal. They can collapse abruptly.

U cant fool all ppl all of the time.

But u may b right if users accept any crap down their throat.

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Ahh that explains the important update for the time zone change in Novosibersk & Omsk this week “the mists of updating are growing clearer….”

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Looks like they will succeed ‘-S

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+1

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And how the updates problems will surface if everybody delays the install?

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We haven’t seen the details yet – and that’s one of the key questions in mapping out a “Group B” strategy.

The Update Catalog is way overdue for a major overhaul. I think we’ll see the overhaul announced in conjunction with a description of how to download monthly security bundles from it.

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You should add a 3.— Everything is working O.K. now and I have a disk image of the current state.

This makes 1 and 2 irrelevant.

(I have the operating system in a different partition from my data. It takes Macrium Reflect Free less than 8 minutes to create a disk image and less than 8 minutes to reinstall it. Having separate partitions also has the advantage that if a disk image is reinstalled the current data is not replaced with an older version.)

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It is not about chaos generated by downloading from the Catalog, it is only too complicated for most users to keep track of each and every patch and download manually. For this purpose the Catalog is no different than the regular Microsoft Download Center which was announced to be slowly deprecated.

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The design of the Catalog site is extremely old, but I think the functionality was improved in the recent months. There was a time when it was unusable and everybody who knew about this site expected it to be decommissioned due to years of neglect. It appears that the policy has changed recently within Microsoft.

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There are enough voluntary beta testers around, like you and me

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Just from observation of the many forums I read: Stay away from Win 10 for at least 18 months from now. Maybe, just maybe, MS will have ironed out all the screwups that their programming developers have caused.

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It seems the tide is changing..
Wave after wave of botched patches,
NOW tsunami’s on the horizon..
Sudo apt-get Bill Gates back!

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You are strong with the force.

That fills me with hope.

-Noel

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> My remaining concern is how in heavens name
> I will be able to re-build a system again?

That’s a valid one, and you can be sure Microsoft has thought about it when building their strategy.

I can only suggest that backups are more important than ever for people choosing to go “off grid”.

-Noel

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Given the way QC assurance works in Redmond these days, there may even be several iterations of this (a patch to fix a patch to fix a patch).

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That was my thought exactly! At any rate, the majority of Windows users on the planet are definitely in Woodys’ “Group A”; and the minute something goes wrong with an update, forums, news sites and great blogs like this one will relay what’s happening.

I will happily stay in group B for my windows boxes.

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“Sudo apt-get Bill Gates back!”

LOL

Unfortunately for us, he’s not interested.

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Quite true – and we’re already seeing it.

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+1

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What is the problem with fine grained updates? The old system of fine grained updates divided into well defined categories based on security was reasonable. For many, a simple setting would suffice (take only critical, etc.). The granularity allowed one to rollback a specific update or not install.

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I’m thinking the western world is doing a fine job of bringing itself to its own knees, without help.

-Noel

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Unfortunately, it’s the Average User out there, whose WU is on Automatic and who has never opened the Control Panel much less WU, that is going to be the beta tester/guinea pig. And they don’t read blogs and forums. And if the news about it is not on TV they will have no clue what happened to their computer. And they will get p***-poor help from Microsoft’s Help – maybe they will even believe the scam calls from “Microsoft Service” requesting access to their “Microsoft Windows Computer” are real and trying to help.

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>5. More waiting for the fix.

The use of the word “the” implies a singular problem and just a bit of unabashed optimism, no?

Overlay several of these situations on one another out of phase, sprinkle in a little “lack of care for older systems” by Microsoft, and coupled with a process of only cumulative updates you get the distinct feeling that unless SOMEBODY starts doing more excellent work we might never have a working system, worth using for serious computing.

Microsoft’s whole point about a “fragmented” operating system being caused by user error or stupidity simply reflects a complete lack of respect for users, many of whom are smarter than anyone working at Microsoft.

-Noel

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With reason!

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That will never happen. Microsoft will probably turn into an entity like the cable companies. You will get a monthly bill for what you subscribed for because you can’t add more in mid-stride. Unless MS would add PPV channels for them to gain extra monies in their coffers.

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Would u b?

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Hard if u add problems each time u solve some.

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Certainly not in today’s USA.

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I wonder if anyone at MS ever read “Atlas Shrugged.” This is starting to look very much like that kind of incompetence where someone wants to appropriate someone else’s successful enterprise, but doesn’t have the skills to keep it successful; in the case of MS, they see that others’ business plans have proven superior to theirs, and they want a share of the better pie without having the slightest clue how to make use of it. That’s what Ayn Rand meant by “you can’t buy (or steal) the product of one’s intellect” (I am avoiding the term “intellectual property” here as it has acquired a very specific meaning since) as argued at length by many characters in her book.

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Woody,

Interesting discussion!

I have 64 bit Win 10 1511, and installed the buggy KB3176493 & the other August update for version 1511 — KB3172729.

The September updates that arrived and are hidden don’t seem to have the bug fix–just the KBs 3185614, 3161102, 3184103. I’m not sure the KB number for my version of Win 10 64 bit ver 1511.

Am I stuck with the buggy KB3176493 (that’t the one with the bug, right?) forever, or should I apply the printer fix KB3186988 for future (or current) preventative maintenance? I may have more than one printer in the future, or be doing multiple print jobs.

Thanks!

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You ain’t seen nothin’ yet…

http://hothardware.com/news/microsoft-patents-big-brother-ai-to-monitor-everything-you-do-in-windows

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The bug is very specific – if you haven’t hit it yet, you’re unlikely to hit it in the future. And once you install the latest security updates, it’ll be gone anyway.

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Just when cable companies are going down the drain. Bcoz they did not sell work related stuff.

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Thank you for making that point.

CT

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+1

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MS stock price appears to have benefited disproportionately from Wall Street/hedge fund enthusiasm for cloud based strategic story lines and SaaS business model migration. As a result, the market is largely ignoring the developing problems with the consumer businesses such as Xbox and Windows 10. Nadella also is the beneficiary of “purchased love” from sell side analyst because of the fee income he has been feeding the street’s M&A business. If you pay attention to the quarterly GAAP earnings of MS rather than the “adjusted earnings” they like to discuss, you will notice how aggressive the adjustments are to present a picture of rapid cloud based revenue growth. I am not saying MS stock will decline near term, but I am suggesting that any disappointment in Azure could result in a material revaluation of expectations. Enough of this; this blog is about Windows.

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This is the point of Group A vs. Group B, is it not?

Along with the question of whether Microsoft staff are acting in our best interests in the first place.

Though some would deny it by claiming that all such criticism is “emotional” and “subjective.”

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Sorry, I think Bill Gates was the author of Steve Ballmer, who was the author of what followed.

We should not let Gates off the hook for what has happened.

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Just a thought on the catalog it was supposed to be re-vamped/opened up to other browsers this summer. Looked out the window just now and it definately looks like fall to me. I scincerely hope they dont tack it in a corner of the “Store.” Where, if your not careful, your one click a way from consigning your system to a “microsnoop” account as they dont exactly go out of theyre way to display “sign in to this app only” Mercifully it would seem Win7 users would be exempt. Or are they…..

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Woody, after reading your latest Infoworld article about the changes to the patch scheme, I started thinking. With the way the patches will be working from now on, would you say it might be a good idea to just wait on installing one months patches until the Monday before the next months Patch Tuesday? (unless of course it is announced that there is one or more updates that we need right away.)

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In general, that’s about it. I’ll be keeping close watch, though, and hopefully we’ll be able to get them OKd a week or so before the next batch.

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Could you please provide me with a URL?

CT

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You only have to use IE11 for now and https as the http site was broken a while ago and it seems to be on and off at random.

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Thanks much Woody, maybe this won’t be so bad after all. One thing I thought of after my last post was this: If IE11 has its own patches, should we hold off on those as well?

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May I recommend to Ms to focus stopping the Wu crap and leave the application efficiency alone. Dont hold ur breath.

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@Noel

I think I am with 2 (although it may not be very secure, haha), but as Robert said above, I have a disk image of my currently working state, so I think I am covered.

At the moment I will just install security-only updates starting from October (once I am satisfied that they are clear of problems). However, I am willing to abandon them if Microsoft includes any “rubbish” with them, and go with an unpatched Windows 7 installation if necessary.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

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Excellent question – and I don’t know, just yet. Certainly you need to hold off until the major problems have a chance to surface, but the details are currently quite cloudy.

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So very true and what makes it worse is that to me, it seems like we’ve long ago past the point where M$ will (willingly) listen to anyone that could help fix any of the issues that will undoubtedly arise one this system fully hits prime time.

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+1

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One last question (for today at least) if I may Woody. In your opinion, what exactly would have to happen for M$ to admit they were wrong in changing the update system? Would it also be a good idea take into account the very real possibility that this system may just be (on purpose or not) unreversable?

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Tell me Woody, for the individual (not corporate) who needs a computer for email, word, updating Facebook and one or two websites do I really need win 10 or can I remain on 8.1 for the next five to ten years? I ask this because I bought a Toshiba Satellite with 8.1 about 18 months ago upgraded for free to 10 then reinstalled 10 two or three times because of crashes. A month ago my hard drive died. Toshiba gave me a new hard drive under guarantee with 8.1. I have tried three times to upgrade to 10 – it hangs after about five or six hours, so thats three days wasted, and it takes ages to get back to win 8.1. Microsoft have tried to help but they told me that Toshiba need to give me different drivers, and possibly a win 10 product key. I am doing everything fine with an old Sony with Vista. (No more updates and free AVG/Zone Alarm for protection). I have been with MS since MS DOS-5 (98, Millenium, XP and Vista) and hardware died before the software.Do I need win 10? What is your advice?

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Thank you VERY much. It looks like it could be the solution. My only concern is being able to deal with what may be Russian language interactions. This just could be the solution to rebuilds as well as a kind of B+ group.

Other concern is of course the ongoing distribution of this work.

CT

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There’s nothing wrong at all with sticking with 8.1.

http://www.infoworld.com/article/3118667/microsoft-windows/which-way-with-windows-here-are-your-options.html

When you buy a new computer, seriously consider one of the alternative platforms. If you decide to stick with Windows, yeah, Win10 is the way to go. If you can hold out for a few years, your options will be much wider.

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No way MS will admit that the phone-style-patching regime is wrong. Won’t happen. The folks at MS who control such things are convinced that they need to have a Windows that can be updated in lockstep.

Think of phone updating. That’s where they’re heading.

Personally, I think the ChromeOS method is superior to both Windows and macOS.

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For me, if I need a notebook, it will most certainly be a Mac since I have no intention of using Windows 10 at this time. Besides, I can use software like VMware Fusion if I still need to run Windows programs. There is no Chromebook available at my location (which is not the USA).

For desktop computers, I would always prefer building from separate components and installing (or just reusing a previous installation of) Windows myself. I will make sure the hardware is still capable of running Windows 7 or 8.1. This means that I will not consider future hardware platforms like Intel Kaby Lake or AMD Zen, who Microsoft said will only be supported with the latest version of Windows 10. I will not be forced to use Windows 10 and I have a number of older spare motherboards (some were bought second hand) for ready replacements in case any motherboards in use fail.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

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Stay with Windows 7 or 8.1 for now. Hope your 8.1 is 64-bit with more than 4 GB RAM. If not, move into that direction.
Windows 10 will be resolved because it is another version of Windows 8 and if some people consider Windows 8.1 as good enough, then Windows 10 will be good enough one day.
That day has not come yet though.

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A question for the more advanced readers here:

W7 Home premium x64.

* I have uninstalled all patches claimed to have any relation to GWX/W10.
* Currently, there are no non-security patches installed.
* The last security patch installed is KB3153199 dated 5/12/16.
* WU is set to never check and the WU service is disabled.

Yet GWX Control Panel detects W10 elements and on accasion shuts down the system.

Is there any way to identify what is triggering the detection?

Thanks.

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Have you asked Josh?

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It’s right on point about what is being done to Windows, and why.

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Who is josh and where do I ask him?

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Hi folks, something to share… I’ve been playing with a Fedora re-spin called Korora24 Gnome (they do to Fedora what Mint does to Ubuntu) just hedging my bets with a backup OS etc.

For anyone that wants to play along, here’s a few tips…

The installer’s different from Mint/Ubuntu, but this seems to get a similar config.

INSTALLATION DESTINATION need to Reclaim space on HDD
HOSTNAME is the Computer name
Skip the ROOT PASSWORD setup
Create the USER as Admin instead

Once installed etc…

Open Yum Extender & install Google Chrome from the ‘Available’ list

Then use Chrome to download the Fedora package from Skype site

Launch the Skype RPM package with Yum Extender (aka Yumex Package Installer)

Most everything is already installed, Pitivi is the Video Editor & Sound Juicer is the CD Ripper

This is all I noticed missing & available from the Software application:

Thunderbird
LibreOffice Base
Scribus
GoldenDict
GnuCash
HomeBank
Gwget Download Manager
Firewall

Updates are located in the Software app.

Open the Tweak Tool & change Icons from Numix-Circle to Numix (more intuitive etc)

If you like the window controls on the left, open Terminal, copy & paste following:

gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.wm.preferences button-layout ‘close,maximize,minimize:’

Or, to put them back on the right:

gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.wm.preferences button-layout ‘:minimize,maximize,close’

I used this ISO: http://sourceforge.net/projects/kororaproject/files/24/korora-24-x86_64-gnome.iso/download

Above link is where the official site automatically sends you when the ISO download starts

Official site: https://kororaproject.org/

Hope it’s useful info…
G

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For Anonymous: There are click pointe in the GWX control panel that should delete those Win10 elements.

You can do it manually by using Disk Cleanup. After it comes up with the initial list, click the “clean up system files” button. If there are Win10 files there, it will present you with the opportunity to delete them.

CT

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Josh Mayfield wrote GWX Control Panel. He used to bump around here from time to time.

http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/2015/08/using-gwx-stopper-to-permanently-remove.html

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Thanks. Already did. No w10 files. Which is what is weird.

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Ah ok. I once contacted him on another matter and got no reply.

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If you can give me a precise description of the problem – including exactly what you see on the screen – I can approach him.

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“wsus offline” & “gwx control panel”, community tools to the rescue, disable updates & 3 services afterwards.

all problems solved, worries gone, screw M$

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+1

My M.O. exactly.

3. Macrium differential before and after any new software install or update, especially Windows updates. A full disk image of my C drive still fits on a 16GB thumb drive, with an additional 32GB stick for full + differentials.

Proactive CYA FTW.

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Here’s the main problem with the monolithic-update approach:

For the sake of argument, let’s say that on average 1 out of 10 changes/fixes are bad, or that an individual change/fix has a 10% chance of being a bad one.

Combine 10 of them together. You now have on average each such combination having a 100% chance of being bad. Furthermore, on average 90% of the changes/fixes in the combination are good but they are “held hostage” by being packaged together with the bad one.

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Do we need to be worried about the new Update process starting October 1, or not until “Patch Tuesday?” Have read Mercer and Bergson notes, and neither mentions a specific date. I’m nervous about this, as I have a new Win 7 laptop that’s never been connected to the Internet. I want to run updates once before they become an issue, as I worry more about what cumulative updates will break than what they’ll fix. Thanks for any insight you can offer!

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Just realized I didn’t make clear in original comment that I’m only adding Security updates (have done this ever since GWX mess started). Wouldn’t be so conflicted about this, but I’m 99.9% sure that some GWX elements came preinstalled on the machine, and know that update 3184143 removes all this nonsense. Again, thanks for your insight.

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Just reread the article “Blame Microsoft… for fragmented patching,” and thought, “Wait a minute, I patch by picking and choosing what I want, and only update on my schedule. I don’t believe I’m attached to an update server, but I’m really not sure about this.” Will I have the option of only installing Security Updates, or will I have to take the whole mess? If the latter is the case, I guess I’ll be forced to join the ranks of those who never update, even though I have a legitimate copy of Windows 7 Pro.

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Yes, you will have the option to install only security updates. Unless MS changes its mind, you’ll have to download them from the Update Catalog, but that should be getting simpler shortly.

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Not until Patch Tuesday – if then.

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Outstanding! Again, thank you for your continued insights, especially relating to updates.

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