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Patch reliability is unclear. Unless you have an immediate, pressing need to install a specific patch, don't do it. |
https://borncity.com/win/2020/12/18/windows-10-20h2-chkdsk-damages-file-system-on-ssds-with-update-kb4592438-installed/ It’s 2020, why am I not surpri
[See the full post at: Gunter Born reports issue with chkdsk]
Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher
I’m about ready to apply for a job as a walmart greeter. Thank you MS!
This is why “we” don’t install updates until we get the all clear and see MS-Defcon 4 or better. This is also why we make a system image before installing any updates. You can’t trust Microsoft to not hose your computer at least once a month. Thanks Microsoft you royally ****** a bunch of systems this time and left them in a condition that some may not be able to recover from because they don’t have a before image to use.
Always take the time to make a clean image before you update and check that you can boot from the USB drive with the image software to restore the image you just made if you need to.
Quite the error the testers let through this time. Big surprise for users who are unaware of it and run chkdsk thinking they are fixing or preventing problems. Thanks for the advance notice Askwoody!.
Just confirmed this issue on two virtual machines in my test lab, although I did eventually manage to get them to boot normally after the NTFS_FILE_SYSTEM STOP error, and online chkdsk scans now report no errors found. If a startup scan is triggered by actual file system corruption, other users might not be so lucky. (Windows 10 20H2 19042.685.)
In my opinion this issue is serious enough that it really ought to warrant an out-of-band patch from Microsoft to fix it as soon as possible.
I’d suggest that you might want to consider warning visitors not to install KB4592438 until this problem is resolved.
I’d suggest that you might want to consider warning visitors not to install KB4592438 until this problem is resolved.
Or, NEVER run chkdsk on SSDs. There no need to.
I thought it was still the “default” tool for logical errors in NTFS too?
… how is it these days, is the self-healing able to cope with everything or is it possible to get logical-only errors that “fsutil repair set drive: 0x9” can’t fix but chkdsk can?
… wait, what? https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administration/windows-commands/fsutil says that fsutil applies to Windows Server 2008r2 and Windows 7 AND that you need to enable Windows Subsystem for Linux before you can use fsutil?
Applies to: Windows Server (Semi-Annual Channel), Windows Server 2019, Windows Server 2016, Windows 10, Windows Server 2012 R2, Windows 8.1, Windows Server 2012, Windows 8, Windows Server 2008 R2, Windows 7
Performs tasks that are related to file allocation table (FAT) and NTFS file systems, such as managing reparse points, managing sparse files, or dismounting a volume. If it’s used without parameters, fsutil displays a list of supported subcommands.
Note
You must be logged on as an administrator or a member of the Administrators group to use fsutil. This command is quite powerful and should be used only by advanced users who have a thorough knowledge of Windows operating systems.
You must enable Windows Subsystem for Linux before you can run fsutil. Run the following command as Administrator in PowerShell to enable this optional feature:
Enable-WindowsOptionalFeature -Online -FeatureName Microsoft-Windows-Subsystem-Linux
You’ll be prompted to restart your computer once it’s installed. After your computer restarts, you’ll be able to run Fsutil as an administrator.
… yeah, how does enabling Windows Subsystem for Linux work on those older Windows versions anyway? Meh, fsutil seems to work just fine on at least 8.1 without it.
I use Powershell with very Linux-like commands to run, update and upgrade ClamAV for Windows. Everything I do looks a lot like entering commands for ClamAV under Linux (which I have done, but no longer need to do, as there’s a GUI for Linux — ClamTK).
I would have to look up just how I installed ClamAV, and how I have upgraded the scanning engine components, under Windows 10 Pro. I recall having trouble getting the Portable Version to run. But that’s how the site says to install ClamAV for Windows, although there is also a Windows .exe installer. I don’t remember which installation method I used initially, but now if I upgrade, it’s with the Portable Version and if needed, rerunning the first-time setup instructions.
https://www.clamav.net/documents/installing-clamav-on-windows
I run the Power Shell version under Windows, because the scanning engine for the Windows version (ClamWin) was frozen at a (now) out of date version when the ClamAV database was sold to Immunet, a Cisco company.
The ClamWin scanning engine was frozen at Version 0.99.4. The current stable scanning engine version for ClamAV is 0.103.0. No Beta or Release Candidate versions are currently posted.
https://www.clamav.net/documents/clamav-on-microsoft-windows-faq
https://www.clamav.net/downloads#otherversions
http://www.clamwin.com/content/view/18/46/
Cisco’s subsidiary Immunet now controls the Windows version of the ClamAV scanning engine, and does not offer ClamWin as a free stand-alone product anymore. Development of the Windows version of the ClamAV scanning engine by the original developers has stopped.
Long story short, I have to run my version of ClamAV by invoking Windows Power Shell as Administrator and then entering commands in a very Linux-like style. It also takes a hugely long time to scan my Windows Drive, because it doesn’t skip anything in there.
The whole process smells a lot like running the Linux subsystem inside of Windows. Am I missing something here?
Since I’m not sure there really is any added value in running ClamAV on a full Windows installation, I am considering discontinuing using this scanner due to its extreme slowness and the wear and tear this places on my computer’s hardware.
-- rc primak
The ClamWin scanning engine was frozen at Version 0.99.4. The current stable scanning engine version for ClamAV is 0.103.0. …
0.103.0 for Win32/64 is available there:
ClamAV-0.103.0.exe
clamav-0.103.0-win-x64-portable.zip
So the long and short of it is, this is a Windows program, just running in the Windows Command Line?
Well, the scanning engine does seem to be more up to date than for ClamWin. And none of the Cloud-dependent hassle of Immunet.
Thanks for clearing this up for me.
I think I may stop using ClamAV after getting this new (to me) information.
Please confirm so I understand, that what I am using is in fact just another Windows program, only using it in Power Shell with commands.
-- rc primak
It’s certainly possible to not manually initiate a chkdsk, but you can be forced into one due to loss of power or other crashes. Scary.
“Or, NEVER run chkdsk on SSDs. There no need to.”
What makes you think that? A file system on an SSD is just as susceptible to damage as on an HDD. Are you confusing chkdsk with defrag?
Or, NEVER run chkdsk on SSDs. There no need to.
And
What makes you think that? A file system on an SSD is just as susceptible to damage as on an HDD. Are you confusing chkdsk with defrag?
Where do you two get that info? Here’s what I found, and it’s confusing:
Yes, while it’s true that SSDs don’t have sectors, when you ‘wear out’ a part of your SSD, the OS reports/sees it as a “bad sector”.
Actually, you may really not need to run it at all… Modern SSD drives automatically remap worn bits (wear leveling technology). This doesn’t guarantee though that your drive is indestructable, coz it will eventually run out of usable bits when you have a bunch of worn bits…
Run
chkdsk /f(or equivalent) to fix file system errors. Do not run chkdsk /r as it is not necessary to check for bad sectors. The intensive disk activity for the check is unnecessary wear on the SSD, and is generally recognised as a bad idea.https://superuser.com/questions/209606/how-safe-is-it-to-run-chkdsk-on-an-ssd
So, is it a bad idea to run chkdsk at all on an SSD, or only a bad idea to run chkdsk /r on an SSD?
-- rc primak
For SSD’s, in my view Windows “Defragment and Optimize Drives” makes obsolete any need for running chkdsk /r on anything other than HDD’s (spinning platter).
I’d suggest that you might want to consider warning visitors not to install KB4592438 until this problem is resolved.
Or, NEVER run chkdsk on SSDs. There no need to.
I’m sure files can get broken on an SSD just like they can on a regular HD so running chkdsk on an SSD needs to be an option. imo.
This is why we wait a month…
Does KB4592438 also affect windows 10 2004?
From what I read, chkdsk /f hangs at 100% in Win 10 2004 and never restart – a manual restart is required.
Ex Microsoft Windows (Insider) MVP, Microsoft Answers Community Moderator, Blogger, Book author
https://www.borncity.com/win/
For SSD’s, in my view Windows “Defragment and Optimize Drives” makes obsolete any need for running chkdsk /r on anything other than HDD’s (spinning platter).
We don’t talk about Windows “Defragment and Optimize Drives” – chkdsk /r means ‘repair files’ and need to bee used in combination with /f.
But a German reader pointed out, that the new chkdsk /scan option may be better and don’t have this issue.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administration/windows-commands/chkdsk
Anyway, the bug has to be fixed (although it’s not clear, what’s exactly triggers this fault). I’ve forwarded the issue to Microsoft’s Windows Update group via my social media channels. Hope that helps.
Ex Microsoft Windows (Insider) MVP, Microsoft Answers Community Moderator, Blogger, Book author
https://www.borncity.com/win/
We don’t talk about Windows “Defragment and Optimize Drives” – chkdsk /r means ‘repair files’ and need to bee used in combination with /f.
Not quite:
“/R Locates bad sectors and recovers readable information (implies /F, when /scan not specified).” It also flags the bad sectors so that they won’t be used again.
I don’t use chkdsk on my daily driver anymore, since I no longer have any spinners. I depend on Garbage Collection, Trim/Retrim and NTFS Metadata (“Defragment and Optimize Drives”) on my SSD’s to keep my files as they should be.
When I did use chkdsk, I never used the /F switch, I used the /R switch (implies /F) instead, in case there might also be bad sectors lurking on my platters.
On an SSD chkdsk F will repair logical errors only.
If you run chkdsk R or F/R you will not get the same results- it will miss many logical errors.
Chkdsk works the same on a HDD and an SSD. It checks for logical errors.
Adding the /r switch runs a full scan of the disk as well as a logical test.
cheers, Paul
On My Win 10 pro experimental computer KB4592438 installed OK.
Using WUMT I tried to uninstall KB4592438 but it messaged that the KB was uninstallable.
Fortunately I have not used Chkdsk on any of my machines since using SSD drives, as I understand it is not necessary.
Maurice Helwig
mbhelwig
Rolling back to a previous build only applies to feature updates (as cumulative updates don’t create a windows.old folder):
By default, Microsoft allows users ten days to uninstall a new Windows 10 feature update and roll back to a previous version of the operating system.
How to get more time to uninstall Windows 10 feature updates
I just double checked, that KB is uninstallable – I just did it on a PC. Have you tried via the gui?
Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher
They haven’t re-released it.
Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher
https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/nov-cu-reappearing-for-install/#post-2318647
and
https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/early-20h2-observations/#post-2320056
I’d suggest that you might want to consider warning visitors not to install KB4592438 until this problem is resolved.
Or, NEVER run chkdsk on SSDs. There no need to.
I’m sure files can get broken on an SSD just like they can on a regular HD so running chkdsk on an SSD needs to be an option. imo.
Build-in SSD’s Trim and Microsoft’s optimization/Trim take care of that.
There is always image restore.
… you should never need to run it with the “/r” switch on modern hard disks.
Are you implying that it is impossible for “modern hard disks” to develop bad sectors?
Citations, please.
And since the “/R” switch implies “/F”, what possible harm could be caused by using the “/R” switch?
bbearren wrote: Are you implying that it is impossible for “modern hard disks” to develop bad sectors? Of course not, but by that logic you would test them every day.
Not by my logic. Bad sectors/corrupted files are usually when Windows and CHKDSK come into play. Windows pops up a warning that a drive needs to be checked, and one opens a Command Console and runs “chkdsk /r” on the indicated drive.
Since “/R” implies “/F”, it’s one and done, unless the HDD has gone belly up, in which case it will need to be replaced.
I’d suggest that you might want to consider warning visitors not to install KB4592438 until this problem is resolved.
Or, NEVER run chkdsk on SSDs. There no need to.
I’m sure files can get broken on an SSD just like they can on a regular HD so running chkdsk on an SSD needs to be an option. imo.
Never had nor heard in the last 10 years of ‘broken files’ on SSDs I and friends use on Windows and Macs.
This probably depends upon how many hundreds of machines you manage. “Operating system not found” is still a thing on SSDs. SSDs don’t manage file system indexes. File system management is the responsibility of the OS. I’ve always been able to fix that error by booting into a WinPE environment and running chkdsk /f.
Lot’s of talk on if/when/how to use chkdsk on SSDs, but little on the actual subject. In this thread (in German) they are actually digging into the stuff: https://forum.planet3dnow.de/index.php?threads/chkdsk-von-windows-10-20h2-killt-dateisystem.439733/page-2
And from comments given on GB’s website I found these two recovery scenarios (fwiw):
“I was able to fix it by booting an older version of Windows 10 on USB, then ran Chkdsk /f on Damaged Partition, and all worked out fine.”
“I had the same thing happen with chkdsk /f. Running chkdsk again (from recovery, since Windows was unbootable) fixed it.”
SSD’s do get bad sectors and the firmware addresses the issue thus negating the need for chkdsk. However, if you want to keep an eye on it then chkdsk is an option…
https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-ssd/my-ssd-has-bad-sectors
My Crucial® SSD has Bad Sectors
With a traditional hard drive bad sectors can forecast a failure, but due to the nature of flash technology it’s normal to have a small number of bad sectors on an SSD. As long as the number of bad sectors does not change, there is no reason for concern; firmware on the SSD tracks bad sectors and marks them as unusable, so even though bad sectors are present on the drive, reliability is unaffected and data is never written to them.The easiest way to keep track of the number of bad sectors on an SSD is to run ChkDsk (short for “check disk”) in Windows®. After checking the drive, ChkDsk will report the number of bad sectors it found. Make a note of what that number is and run ChkDsk again after a couple of days. You may also monitor the health your SSD by using Storage Executive. Storage Executive is a free downloadable tool that allows you to monitor your drive’s overall health.
If the number of bad sectors remains the same, all is well. If the number of bad sectors is steadily increasing over time, contact customer service for your region to receive further assistance.
Crucial Storage Executive supports Over Provisioning.
I can confirm, that today our Dell technician informed us about this issue.
His recommended way is to use MinitoolPartition wizard for example, or boot from USB and run chkdsk from it.
When he put affected SSD into another machine, it showed as RAW formatted.
Dell Latitude 3420, Intel Core i7 @ 2.8 GHz, 16GB RAM, W10 22H2 Enterprise
HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29
PRUSA i3 MK3S+
chkdsk /f issue apparently fixed by Microsoft:
December 8, 2020—KB4592438 (OS Builds 19041.685 and 19042.685)
Known issues in this update
Symptom
A small number of devices that have installed this update have reported that when running chkdsk /f, their file system might get damaged and the device might not boot.
Workaround
This issue is resolved and should now be prevented automatically on non-managed devices. Please note that it can take up to 24 hours for the resolution to propagate to non-managed devices. Restarting your device might help the resolution apply to your device faster. For enterprise-managed devices that have installed this update and encountered this issue, it can be resolved by installing and configuring a special Group Policy. To find out more about using Group Policies, see Group Policy Overview.
To mitigate this issue on devices which have already encountered this issue and are unable to start up, use the following steps:
The device should automatically start up into the Recovery Console after failing to start up a few times.
Select Advanced options.
Select Command Prompt from the list of actions.
Once Command Prompt opens, type: chkdsk /f
Allow chkdsk to complete the scan, this can take a little while. Once it has completed, type: exit
The device should now start up as expected. If it restarts into Recovery Console, select Exit and continue to Windows 10.Note After completing these steps, the device might automatically run chkdsk again on restart. It should start up as expected once it has completed.
Does this advisory also mean that an SSD which is affected should have chkdsk /f run on it? I’m still not entirely clear on that point.
And does this mean that the patch itself is going to be updated at some point this month?
-- rc primak
Does this advisory also mean that an SSD which is affected should have chkdsk /f run on it? I’m still not entirely clear on that point.
To recover from an unbootable device, yes.
And does this mean that the patch itself is going to be updated at some point this month?
I don’t think so, as the issue has been resolved.
I don’t understand as well how the bug has been resolved with no new update.
The link to Group Policy downloads this file : Windows 10 (20H1) Known Issue Rollback 121920 01.msi
I’d like to look inside the.msi file to see just what is changed by it within Group Policy before just blindly d/l’ing it and installing it. That way I can make the changes myself and roll them back later after a real fix is released.
I don’t think so, as the issue has been resolved.
How can local bug be resolved without a fix, unless Microsoft using its backdoor to apply a fix remotely after Windows startup/restart :
Please note that it can take up to 24 hours for the resolution to propagate to non-managed devices. Restarting your device might help the resolution apply to your device faster.
I think it’s something on their back end.
Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher
You can download the .msi file that “patches” Group Policy (on Pro Machines) from the link b has posted.
You can download the .msi file that “patches” Group Policy (on Pro Machines) from the link b has posted.
I already know that, based upon having read the revised bulletin for myself and your post above.
What I’m saying is that I’d like to take a peek “under the hood” of the .msi installer to see exactly what it does within Group Policy so that I can instead do it myself if I choose to and then remove the modification at a later date if need be.
However, like many folks, I probably lack the proper tool(s) to correctly “disassemble” the installer to see the GP changes it makes for myself. 🙁
For now, the only hint we have of what it (the .msi installer) does lies in the filename of the installer: The word “rollback” is in the title, so it must undo something in GP that the monthly update does in the first place when it’s installed that somehow affects the running of chkdsk.exe.
There has been mention in Gunter’s article that the disks have been detected as being “RAW” format disks, so there’s probably a change that affects the disk management utilities within windows.
EDIT- Thanks to @SkipH for the initial analysis below!
I thought the revised version KB4592438 would come down the update pipe, but I haven’t seen it yet. In the Microsoft Update Catalog, the latest update is 12/6/2020.
Then that .MSI file can be unzipped with 7Zip. It has 2 files in it (see attached screenshot).
Using Notepad to open either/both of those files, they seem to reference KB4586853, which was a “preview” update from back on November 30th.
Since IIRC, Preview patches (like KB4586853) are incorporated in the following month’s regular updates, not sure how “fixing” KB4586853 will fix the December 8th update, KB4592438.
Can anyone explain?
You can wait a bit longer and reinstall it at the end of the week. Any security update you don’t install always installs patches to protect your system.
Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher
Thanks, Boss! But how do I know if it’s “clean”? Maybe the next AskWoody will tell me?
check your windows update history, Wally
https://pureinfotech.com/check-update-history-windows-10/
check to see if the update is properly installed
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