Foley: Win7 Extended Support Updates will cost two arms and three legs

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Mary Jo Foley, posting on ZDNet, has come across some official information about the price of extended support for Win7 — security patches to be deli
[See the full post at: Foley: Win7 Extended Support Updates will cost two arms and three legs]

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abbodi86, geekdom

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What is the minimum number to qualify as “volume” customer?

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AFAIK, You can qualify for ‘Volume Licensing’ with as little as five PCs in an organization. could be mistaken though..so many changes at MS.

Woody, can you pass on this 3/5ths down payment for ‘extended W7 support updates’ to microsoft as per your title..I did think of another two things instead of arms but, thought better of it

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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SueW

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Doesn’t matter… Microsoft’s goal is to make the ESU’s progressively more expensive to force users to upgrade to Windows 10 Enterprise. At whatever version! BTW, I know it’s a tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory, but I’m still afraid Win8.1 will be targeted once Win7 for non-Enterprise users reaches EOL. If that actually starts to happen, it will accelerate my moving to Linux or Mac.

Bought a refurbished Windows 10 64-bit, currently updated to 22H2. Have broke the AC adapter cord going to the 8.1 machine, but before that, coaxed it into charging. Need to buy new adapter if wish to continue using it.
Wild Bill Rides Again...

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Why wait, Bill?  Get started today.  Life’s too short to sit around stewing in frustration for years over something like an operating system upgrade.

But…. don’t expect unlimited free fixes from major Linux distributions, either. Almost none of them do this for free, because nobody really wants to donate their time.  Canonical charges for security fixes to LTS versions of Ubuntu Linux after 5 years.  RHEL is on a subscription license and they offer 10 years of security fixes then start charging after that. (Same model as Windows Enterprise)

And definitely don’t go with the Mac if you want a long-term stable system — Apple only provides security updates to the most recent three versions of macOS, and they release a new OS every year.  Microsoft, Adobe, Autodesk and the rest generally only support the last three versions, too.  New versions of macOS also bring their own magical mystery box of app-compat issues…. like….. they’re dropping all support for 32-bit applications soon.

 

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anonymous wrote:

But…. don’t expect unlimited free fixes from major Linux distributions, either.

It depends on what you consider a major Linux distro.

As far as your example of Ubuntu… no, it’s not an unlimited support period with any given version, but the new version is free and can be upgraded to with relatively little effort, so it’s not like MacOS where a certain generation of hardware simply doesn’t get any more updates once Apple says so.  It used to be that you had to pay to get the new Windows version, but who even knows how this is going to play out now that we’re told that Windows 10 is the last ever?  With Ubuntu, you essentially have unlimited support insofar as you can keep upgrading to the new version for free as long as it still supports your hardware (and it tends to do that for a very, very long time… Ubuntu-based Mint Xfce runs on my ~14 year old HP Laptop just fine).

As far as the versions themselves, it’s a different situation than with Windows, where much of the change from feature update to feature update is driven by the marketing department’s need to have something to trumpet about in a circular effort to justify having the rapid release schedule in the first place.  Most of the new features are fluff that no one asked for, while the things they did ask for (an off button for telemetry, for one) are conspicuous only by their absence.

Linux distros aren’t made by a singular outfit under a centralized leadership as is Windows… it’s hundreds of smaller projects that are independent of one another, and they’re all continuing to move forward with each of their own slices of the pie, releasing updates on their own schedules, regardless of what Ubuntu does.

Ubuntu isn’t releasing new versions for marketing purposes, but because all of the smaller projects just keep on moving whether or not Ubuntu chooses to release every five years or one year or not at all. When Ubuntu creates a LTS edition, they take it upon themselves to maintain each of the version-fixed bits that make up that LTS edition, backporting the security and bugfixes one by one to keep the code base stable and secure.  The amount of work it takes to do this increases over time, as the current code base changes more and more from where it was when the LTS version created the temporary fork.

Each new build of Ubuntu simply rebuilds the entire puzzle from newer pieces from each of the various projects that make up the whole.  A lot of improvements in the various bits that make up a distro only make it into the Ubuntu release when the new LTS comes out, as it is not possible or desirable to backport every single change that is made upstream to the LTS bits of Ubuntu.  Fixes for existing bugs or security issues get backported, but that’s usually it.

Some distros, like Manjaro, use a rolling release that has the distro continually updating to the newest releases of the various bits, rather than updating the minor pieces but letting the major ones remain stable for the entire LTS period.  For Manjaro and other rolling-release distros, this means that it is supported essentially forever once you install it, with the potentially big changes coming continuously when released upstream rather than all at once when the new LTS edition rolls out.  Some people prefer the rolling release, while others like the periodic updates; both have their merits and their drawbacks.

Overall, Linux distro upgrades, not being driven by marketing needs, tend to be evolutionary and not revolutionary.  I never got on board the “every three years” cadence when I ran Windows… I upgraded when and if I wanted to. I was happy with XP over most of its supported life, and I kept it well into the Windows 8 years.  I only moved on at that point because 32-bit was no longer satisfactory for me, and it would be just as much work to move to XP x64 (which had a short time left in security support) as to 7 x64.  I passed on 8 at that point, for the usual reasons, and moved to 7 x64.

With Linux, though, where I’ve used Mint and KDE Neon, both of which are based on Ubuntu LTS releases, I’ve evaluated the new releases as they’ve come, and always found them to be worth an upgrade.  There were no unwanted “features” I could not get rid of… each version has had solid advantages that prompted me to choose to upgrade because I wanted to, and I could do it when I wanted to.  In fact, Mint actually goes as far as to suggest that people not upgrade if they don’t have a specific reason.

Any large update has the potential for breakage, but with LTS versions coming every 2 years and a free support period of 5 years, you have a lot of time to let things stabilize before making the jump.    If MS allowed every Windows user to stick with the LTSB for up to 5 years and upgrade if and when they wanted, without ever being pushed into it, that would be a huge improvement, and if they stopped releasing feature builds for marketing purposes, it would be another huge improvement.   If I could use LTSB in the usual manner (no tricks, in other words, since it is not usually allowed for consumers), I’d certainly have a different view of Windows 10.  I might even be using that now to write this rather than Linux!

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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Elly

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If indeed the goal here is to get Windows 7 customers to upgrade to Windows 10 by over charging a huge fee, I would compare that to trading in my Cadillac for a Model-T. I understand the overhead and cost involved in the research and producing the updates, but you would think that would even out after they let all the good help go.

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WildBill

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All the millions of us home users will get it free since we are not switching  and they can’t afford to have us endangering every one else.

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It didn’t work that way for the millions of Windows XP users a few years ago, with perhaps one notable exception.

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Every now and then they are still sending out XP security patches.

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I seem to remember that being said about why people should adopt W10 and its forced updating… that it would make the internet more secure for all of us, if everyone was updated. However, I’m thinking that Microsoft will not use the same logic to continue supporting Windows 7… not because it wouldn’t make things more secure, but that was just a marketing ploy to move people in the direction that Microsoft wanted them to move. They don’t want us to stay on Windows 7… all these W10 changes are for Microsoft’s benefit, some carrot flavored, and some obnoxious sticks… and not that they have a real, abiding concern for the security of the internet. Any ethical business that cared about its consumers wouldn’t have thrown them into beta testing… developing AI could have run alongside a system that didn’t actually cause BSOD or network loss or all the other bugs they’ve inflicted on end users, if they had any respect for their customers, at all.

Non-techy Win 10 Pro and Linux Mint experimenter

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wdburt1

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Does anyone believe that a company the size of Birkshire Hathaway or Bank of America will pay anything if they miss the deadline? Microsoft have cloud service billions dancing in their eyes. It would be bad business to poke these grizzlies – best to let them graze at their leisure and in any field they choose. Grizzlies are unpredictable. Nothing will be in writing.

Government bureaucrats have rules and regulations regarding making deals that are not in writing. The tax payer will pay Microsoft. The IT departments for governments are more than likely to migrate on time. A few will miss – probably the same ones that missed the XP to W7 migration as they are usually IT basket cases anyway.

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wdburt1

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anonymous wrote:

Grizzlies are unpredictable.

True enough.  I would risk one prediction however.  Those giant corporate grizzlies won’t allow themselves to remain vulnerable to the whims and foibles of any other entity that shows itself inclined to force unwanted changes and expenses on them as Microsoft has done.  I suspect, in fact, that other longer-term alternatives are already under very careful consideration.

Asus ROG Maximus XI Code board; Intel i9-9900K CPU; 32 GB DDR4-3600 RAM; Nvidia GTX1080 GPU; 2x512 GB Samsung 970 Pro M.2 NVMe; 2x2 TB Samsung 860 Pro SSDs; Windows 10.1809; Linux Mint 19.1; Terabyte Backup & Recovery

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Elly

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Who in certain types of business has not encountered the situation where the owner insists that something is not for sale, no way no how, but finally admits that he or she might accept an outrageous figure.  To which, the response often should be, “Now that we have established that [X] is for sale, let’s talk about price.”

I think the best strategy is for all users–government, business, and home users alike–t0 press to expand eligibility for extended support and a reductions in price.  Since unfortunately there appears to be no potential for competition from other providers of such service, the “competition” has to come from threatened migration to Linux or Apple or whatever.

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For Windows-7 Pro users, it is a small price to pay for a solid, suitable, and reliable OS for one’s business or serious consumer use.  The erratic behavior of Windows-10 is still unacceptable in many setting.  [Perhaps this is Microsoft’s way of admitting that Windows-10 is not yet ready as a mainstream replacement for Windows-7 and MS needs more time to fix its fundamental problems.  We can only hope.]

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wdburt1, Bill C.

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Remember, this offer is for volume license customers not retail or one off license purchases.

What erratic behavior under which specific circumstances do you mean? There are hundreds of millions of users in a huge variety of circumstances using Windows 10 daily without erratic behavior.

--Joe

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I have found that with Windows 10 Pro, you can edit the Group Policy to make Windows 10 work just like you want, including delaying updates so that they have time to get the bugs worked out before the updates are installed on your computer.

Perhaps Microsoft could have done a better job explaining a few things like Group Policy editing, so that the average user would know how to fix whatever quirks they find with Windows 10.

As far as Windows 10 breaking an old program, you can reinstall the program using the “Troubleshoot Compatibility” option. You can tell Windows to run that program using Windows 7 rules (or some other previous version of Windows). This has bailed me out with two or three must-have old programs.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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MrJimPhelps wrote:

Perhaps Microsoft could have done a better job explaining a few things like Group Policy editing, so that the average user would know how to fix whatever quirks they find with Windows 10.

The Average User doesn’t have Group Policy. They have Home Edition which has no controls.

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Elly, AlexEiffel, Microfix, b

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anonymous wrote:

The erratic behavior of Windows-10 is still unacceptable in many setting.

Would you care to be a little more specific about those unacceptable conditions? The current W10.1809 release has been anything but erratic running under the most up-to-date hardware build that I’ve been able to put together with drivers direct from the hardware makers. In many “erratic behavior” situations the Intel Driver and Support Assistant can be your most important friend.

Asus ROG Maximus XI Code board; Intel i9-9900K CPU; 32 GB DDR4-3600 RAM; Nvidia GTX1080 GPU; 2x512 GB Samsung 970 Pro M.2 NVMe; 2x2 TB Samsung 860 Pro SSDs; Windows 10.1809; Linux Mint 19.1; Terabyte Backup & Recovery

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anonymous wrote:

For Windows-7 Pro users, it is a small price to pay for a solid, suitable, and reliable OS for one’s business or serious consumer use. The erratic behavior of Windows-10 is still unacceptable in many setting. [Perhaps this is Microsoft’s way of admitting that Windows-10 is not yet ready as a mainstream replacement for Windows-7 and MS needs more time to fix its fundamental problems. We can only hope.]

Another option would be Windows 8.1 with one of the add-ons (e.g. Classic Shell) that makes it look and feel just like Windows 7. All of your Windows 7 software will work in that environment. Also, you won’t have to worry about your software no longer supporting Windows 7. An example of that is tax prep software. I predict that you won’t be able to find Windows 7 tax software to do your 2019 taxes with, because the tax prep companies aren’t going to want to get sued because of possible vulnerabilities with Windows. But that won’t be a problem if you are running Windows 8.1.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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https://forums.techguy.org/threads/august-2018-security-updates-for-windows-xp-pro-sp3-32-bit.1214480/   Support  according to this, ends  April 2019.

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Geo wrote:

Support according to this, ends April 2019.

Support – for Windows XP Professional SP3 32-bit [] configured with the POSReady registry tweak – ends April this year.

Windows 7 has extended support until January 14, 2020.

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anonymous wrote:

For Windows-7 Pro users, it is a small price to pay for a solid, suitable, and reliable OS for one’s business or serious consumer use. The erratic behavior of Windows-10 is still unacceptable in many setting. [Perhaps this is Microsoft’s way of admitting that Windows-10 is not yet ready as a mainstream replacement for Windows-7 and MS needs more time to fix its fundamental problems. We can only hope.]

IF, big IF, since it is not available to the individual user, I would not find this excessive as I transitioned to (pick your OS here). However, if that extended support for a fee is as fraught with patching peril as current Windows 7, I would have to think twice. However, no matter how you cut it, $50 per machine for the first year is relatively cheap for a procrastination tax.

While I am generally not sympathetic when people who do not plan have costs incurred, this is not that bad. For a small business with a 30 seat license, it would be $1500 for a 1 years crash study and migration. If however you are a soccer star in kicking the can down the road, and want to delay more, that is on you, not MS who has been touting the demise of Win 7 for 4 years.

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This is much cheaper than I expected honestly (I was expecting thousands of $$$ that only giant companies like banks/governments could afford tot pay). For just 350$, W10 can stay in the trash bin for 3 more years. Expecially at work, nobody is familiar with W10 and many programs don’t work… By 2023 I can just pray the dear Lord that W11 will be a thing, and that it will resemble W7, a full desktop-centric OS, not a c*** designed for tablets and smartphones… I have literally no clue how it is possible that a bugfest such as W10 is still around after proving to be a problematic OS for so many years in a row, but… To each his own.

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I agree that people are not familiar with Win10. BUT, Win10 can setup in such a way as to minimize the issues and nervousness. I do not know anyone consumer or business who has been unable to adapt quickly.

Microsoft recently announced a program (most likely for medium to large organizations) to ensure that programs do work on Win10. I’d like to know if the programs you have that don’t work are home grown or third party.

I’ve yet to see any objective statistics that back up the idea that Win10 is a bugfest any more than any other version of Windows. Just because people say it does not make it true. I’ve not found Win10 to be any more problematic than any prior version. Go back and read the tech press after each Windows release and see all the criticism.

--Joe

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b

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joep517 wrote:

I’ve not found Win10 to be any more problematic than any prior version. Go back and read the tech press after each Windows release and see all the criticism.

“After each release” used to take place once every three years, and support would last for ten years once you found a version you liked.  Once you got past the initial year or so of instability, about how long it would take for SP1 to arrive, you’d be golden for another nine years.

Now, “After each release” is every six months, and support only lasts two years for consumers on any given build– if you can manage to keep MS from forcefully upgrading you against your wishes before that.  Even 10 Pro doesn’t let you defer a feature upgrade for two years!

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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Plus after each service pack. Each service pack was like a new release in the amount of complaints.

If you were “golden” why was there a stream of patches both security and non-security. Then after 5 years no more quality (non-security) fixes. Oops.  How would you implement new technology not supported in Windows? Rely on a third party and introduce another failure point?

--Joe

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b

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That may be true.  It is especially true about Win 10 by your own words, since it get “service pack” every 6 months, thus all new bugs pop up on shifting sand base and bricking some computers. As opposite to older Windows being far more stable base for bug fixes and for longer term as well.

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It looks like the proposed service is mostly intended to help companies with numerous Windows 7 PCs that will not, for whatever reason, have moved them already to Windows 10 by Win 7 EULA.

I am a single user of Win 7 Pro, so do not qualify for the paid extension of Windows 7, as this is for groups of users, each with one machine, or for users with several computers each, and either way, only if the number of these computers is equal or larger than a certain quantity. If I did qualify and could afford this, I would still have to consider the possibility that the patches might be less than great and, as has happened several times in recent memory, some of them might be more trouble than help. Also I wonder about software, memory chips, hard drives, peripheral devices and so forth that, until now, have been “for Windows 7 and later”, and how many might still, and for how much longer, have that and not “for Windows 8.1 or later ” printed in their boxes. Probably the solution of last resort would be to buy those items in the secondary market, which is iffier than buying fresh from the factory through a well known retailer.

Finally, even if  I qualified for extended support and all those considerations were not enough to stop me from buying it, MS has already warned that the price is likely to go up when the support extension is renewed, so it is hard to figure out the eventual, long-term cost of this special service, particularly for those businesses that have a considerable number of PC running Windows 7. So I am not clear as to the value and usefulness of this offer to extend support for Windows 7, for a price. Except if bought just once without the intention to renew it, but just to buy more time to those business I mentioned at the beginning, that will find themselves lagging behind in the conversion from Win 7 to 10 in late January of next year.

Ex-Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7); since mid-2017 using also macOS. Presently on Monterey 12.15 & sometimes running also Linux (Mint).

MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with 16GB 1600 GHz DDR3 RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
macOS Monterey; browsers: Waterfox "Current", Vivaldi and (now and then) Chrome; security apps. Intego AV

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